>>Spirit Slayer (240) doesn't work with mass effect spells.

Still learning, even after all this time. I agree, Rishi, that's a ton of mana - and I would have said that it would be more likely not to even take effect (higher level spells are harder for the slayer to recast). But now. . . I don't even have to.

Ok, so - we're back to parity.

>>I do think comparisons to other pure professions aren't serving anyone's cause here without data backing them up, because the assumptions being made aren't grounded in reality, and thus the GMs aren't being persuaded. (the 1115/519/317 comparison worked because of data)

And agreed. So far, we have a couple of data points, I'm well above 65% in the Rift with 912 (and against creatures almost all of whom can be higher than 100 levels), and Robert's sharing a comparable picture for Nelemar (exceeding(?) 80% with his chosen tactics.) More data would help, perhaps?

Doug

DESTINY14

As we've stated, enhancives wouldn't help.

Every caster can raise their CS by up to 20 from enhancives.

GameMaster Estild

Let's recap for a moment here Destiny14:

I explained how I hunted Sentrys and GWEs in the temple.

You didn't have a clear understanding of my hunting strategy using 519 and tried to dismiss it as useless so I clarified.

Still within the context of 519, you then stated that 100% was the only thing reasonable since you felt that all other pures could achieve this (but not wizards).

I then explained (more clearly) how 100% could be achieved using immolation with additional training, enhancives, etc.

You then (incorrectly) stated that enhancives wouldn't help and then introduced that 519 is a single target disabler (which I thought should have been clear and obvious from the initial part of the discussion, but I'm glad you know this now).

You then additionally restated my posts incorrectly by attributing my entire hunting strategy to being 80% as effective as other pures (which is incorrect in a number of ways), and insinuated (incorrectly) that I am speaking for others.

What exactly are you adding to the discussion so far, oh wise one? My commentary has been directly focused on the disabler version of 519-Immolation (a single target disabler spell in case there is still some confusion on this point) and its effectiveness. I'm not completely clear as to what point(s) you are trying to make.

Also, how much post cap experience is required to participate in your part of the discussion going forward?

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

>Well, yeah, kinda. In fact, I'm really struggling with this 'revelation'. I don't profess to be the end-all, be-all empath player, but I don't know of very many capped hunting empaths that would purposefully maximize the CS potential of the minor sphere over the empathic sphere. Maybe I am crazy, but I don't see that happening. Ever. Enhanced or not.


Since fire lore is mostly useless now outside of 415, I dropped down to 101 fire/101 air and redid my spells from 159/67/77 to 101/101/101 mainly for 415 CS, because it's better than immolate now. My CS is 530 across the board now. Before, MnE was 504, MjE was 557, and wizard I don't remember because what am I gonna do with it, cast Weapon Fire? Before I respecced I could still hit things most of the time with 415. I just had no use for it because Immolate wasn't trash then.

But back to the original point, it's not at all out of the realm of possibility for an off-sphere CS to be on par with your main CS, especially right now for wizards.

~ Methais

>1612 is self-cast. Are we suggesting that paladins should be added to the list of folks with this ability?

208 exists.

>It does, you know. . . yes indeed it does!

My point is that a sufficiently trained and equipped post-cap spiritual pure has access to a much wider arsenal of tools and guaranteed, reliable mass diablers and instant kill mechanisms than wizards do.

Via Scroll Infusion and 208, all of the spiritual pures also have access to a much wider circle of outside spells than the average wizard does. So far, we've done nothing but take away from the post-cap wizard to transfer power to the pocket mage who doesn't have to actually hunt much or much that is dangerous. Wizards are now expected to rely more heavily on CS spells and disablers to hunt, yet the tools for wizards are not at all equal or even remotely comparable to what the spiritual pures have at their disposal.

Just because it is not apparent to some how much power the post-cap wizard has lost doesn't mean that those gaps don't exist. They do, and it's untenable. And no, the solution is not to nerf the spiritual pures into the ground either.

>> My point is that a sufficiently trained and equipped post-cap spiritual pure has access to a much wider arsenal of tools and guaranteed, reliable mass diablers and instant kill mechanisms than wizards do.

Maybe it would be helpful in advancing the conversation if instead of painting with a broad brush we identified which post-cap spiritualists have these arsenals and exactly what it is that is in each of these spiritualists arsenal. I'm not saying that these arsenals don't exist, but as someone who doesn't play a post capped spiritualist I'm not really clear which apples we are comparing here. A lot of the recent examples being thrown around seem more like lemons than apples (e.g. 208) and there's definitely been some misinformation in terms of what spells work with what.

So... our list of spiritualists with reliable arsenals are: Clerics, Empaths, and Sorcerers? What is it that is in each of these aresenals?

For Wizards, I will list the following:

- RapidFire which can be to great effect on a single or multiple target using a range of spells (noted it has a cooldown but it still is a potent weapon when not on cooldown). Arguably more potent then many of the other spells out there.

SINGLE TARGET
- Immolation (disabler version, SINGLE TARGET ONLY) which has a decent duration on a successful ward and seem fairly reliable in my book.
- Sleep: While the duration is fine, I find this spell too limiting as a disabler as it then precludes the use of any ball/area spells.
- Stone Fist (hahahahahaha... moving on. This spell could be really awesome but definitely needs a complete rework)
- Sandstorm: Too slow to get initial result to count? What if Sandstorm had an initial Call Wind effect on the room up front (but then the sandstorm went for the indicated target)? I'd probably look at using it myself then.

MULTI-TARGET
- Call Wind: I'm just recently experimenting with this spell. It doesnt' seem to have enough oomph without massive Air Lore investment. I seem to recall it is used to good effect against Lich's by some wizards. It's basically EWave with a chance to get an immolation like effect on a single target if you're lucky.
- Ewave: Level based results which makes it 'meh' in the harder areas. Maybe put it to good use when combined with Slow?
- Major Ewave: Not player friendly so sort of off the list in my book.
- Tremors: I haven't used the new version of this spell enough to have a feel for it. Feedback here on the forums seems to indicate it isn't reliable enough?
- Slow: With the enhancements at least it is free to cast (in time) now but still means the critter is going to take actions (just less frequently). Not a great main disabler spell in my book but it does have some uses.

Did I miss anything in the wizard arsenal?

From the list above, I would agree that I find our multi-target tools somewhat lacking (hence the reason why I choose to immolate targets one at a time). It seems to be hinted that over training in wizards might produce noticably more reliable results with Call Wind but I still find the overall effect of this spell uninspiring unless you get the lucky vortex result (which is really only a single target disabler in that regard).

Can someone very familiar with the well-arsenaled spiritualists post something similar for each of those classes? What single and multi-target tools do they have and how effective are they?

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

>Agree. You did see though, that we were talking about minor spiritual / empath, right?

Yes I know. I was responding to this point:

>I don't profess to be the end-all, be-all empath player, but I don't know of very many capped hunting empaths that would purposefully maximize the CS potential of the minor sphere over the empathic sphere.

With a wizard equivalent example.

>It. Is. NOT. MONDAY!

The day that Methais graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.

~ Methais

> 518 Cone of Elements?

Agree! While I don't consider Cone of Elements as a disabler in the more 'traditional' sense, I do use it to clear the room quickly when there are three or more critters present.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

>> Doesn't it only hit 3 targets now? I forgot if there was a way to increase it after that got nerfed too.

Up to 6 (player friendly)
Up to 12 (not player friendly)

Based on EMC training.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

>Destiny14's posts regarding 208

I'm pretty sure the GMs can probably count the casts of 208 in one day on one hand. Although I should try and see if I can steal Balefire off of a cerebalite...that might be fun to play with.

1711 is really the only accessible CS booster that has duration longer than one cast. 340's a one time boost.

Rishi
- Player of Kembal

---

Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)]
A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.

>> >> 340's a one time boost.

>> And not exactly. It's pretty sustainable use. Wizards don't have a one time boost of any kind though.

Is that what you think is needed to address the wizard concerns Destiny14? A one time, high mana, CS booster spell?

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

>> And not exactly. It's pretty sustainable use. Wizards don't have a one time boost of any kind though.

And technically... 413-Elemental Saturation provide a CS 'boost' (through reduced TD) that can persist through multiple casts for a fraction of the mana.

Sadly I think the spell implementation is super weak (it shouldn't require a warding check to reduce warding) and I only have 75 ranks in the 400 circle at present so it doesn't help me with my sentry '80% problem' at present.

But suppose for the sake of discussion that I spent my remaining spell ranks training on the 400 circle bringing my Minor Elt. up to 101 ranks.

Now my Minor Elt CS would be 535 (the same as my immolation cast CS). With the -25 penalty the sentry would receive against 413 when I cast it I would basically have a 100% chance to cast this spell on a sentry. With my current EMC training (200 ranks) and Fire Lore training (24 ranks) the sentry would now have a -22 warding penalty against my immolation spell for the next 1000 seconds (if I am reading the spell information correctly). So now my immolation cast is at ~100% chance to strike as well!

A near 100% solution with 2 casts if I decide to train in that direction. And less mana for both spells than the 40 point CS booster.

The additional downside to 413 being that I cannot pre-prep my 'booster' spell. I have to be in the room for both casts vs. other boosters that can be cast in safety (another reason to remove the warding check from 413 in my opinion).

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

I think I read the spell wrong. The sentry would get a -19 ward penalty against my 413 cast due to my EMC training and then would have a -28 warding penalty (-25 plus and additional -3 due to my fire lore training) against my immolation spell. Pretty much the same result in my example but wanted to correct the numbers.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

>> A pushdown is not a booster, particularly when you have to successfully ward the creature to receive the pushdown to begin with. And 340 does not cost 40 mana per use.

1) We are in agreement that the spell can be improved! Would the removal of the warding check on the initial cast address your available booster concerns? It would for me.

2) In my case it's pretty much the same if my warding success is 100%, no? +25 for me or -25 for them provides the same result on a single cast. The +25 scenario doesn't require that I identify my target beforehand though, which I would prefer. But in the end, it is still a booster.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Out of mild curiosity, how many times per day is 413 cast on average vs. the other CS booster spells?

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

I'd be curious to know what the least cast spell in the game is if you have that information? Or maybe the bottom 3.

-Richard/Fjalar.

>2) In my case it's pretty much the same if my warding success is 100%, no? +25 for me or -25 for them provides the same result on a single cast. The +25 scenario doesn't require that I identify my target beforehand though, which I would prefer. But in the end, it is still a booster.

No, it is not the same at all. A pushdown is NOT a booster because it has a hard floor of -25. A booster on the other hand, can be stacked with other boosters and create sufficient enough warding margin such that the effects of being warded by a CS spell are dramatically increased. See 240, where the spirit slayer boosts are boosts on top of the boosted/enhanced base caster CS.

>>I think we are not speaking on the same page regarding boosters etc and desired effects. To achieve parity in offensive capabilities, all pures need reliable (read: guaranteed at a sufficiently post-cap and enhanced level) crowd control and instant kill mechanisms. That is, effective panic buttons and boosters.

While I still don't agree with this, as theory does not equal practice and I'm very disinterested in 100% for shore anything in the lands (which as you noted simply gets adjusted until it's no longer 100% sure), I'm going to stop my responding to the belabored point, and ask a simple question.

What about Time Stop (950)?

Doug

No.

Do'phion