See what happens when I start posting again.

::cackles::


Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier

Your trophy is in the mail ;)

Welcome back


B-Hon, Pullin Seihjin's Strings Behind the Scenes

<<This Darius thing really boils down to what YOU want to believe. If you dislike him you can use that fact to put him down anytime he comes in discussion. But that itself shows that you're not ready to be a true Paladin. The Paladin is kind and forgives so Darius is ahead of you by forgiving your mistakes when you make them and allowing you to continue in the Paladin path, thus why he's the Guildleader and you're a mere follower. Now if you like Darius you may as well forgive him for his action and remember some good things about him.>>

Thats right, I am not a true Paladin, becaue I expect more from our guild leaders than I do from someone such as yourself. He did something he shouldn't have (on numerous occasions) yet not once has he owned up to it. Instead, he lashes out at "mere followers" (which I am nor will I ever be), for doing things that he himself has done. Its not my place to forgive him. I can still respect his position, but personally I believe there is a huge double standard at work here.

--Just a "clueless" Squire

<<You are limiting your ideas to the boundaries of game mechs...geez.>>

Alright Blas, I don't need the exasperation inherent in the comment.

<<NPC fact: Did ya know Andraethru was a cleric AND a moonmage, of course this was only RP?>>

No, I didn't.

<<You really need to stop thinking a mish mosh of system and RP. You are sticking to the boundaries of game mechs only when you can try to use em to validate your points>>

You make it sound like I'm twisting reality maliciously to make myself seem in the right.

If the game mechanic for allowing only one guild wasn't there, there'd be no use for a Paladin guild, IC or OOC. If the gods make a Paladin, and the gods give him the abilities a paladin uses, then a person could join another guild and become a paladin as well. If all that is required to be a paladin is to have the "soul" of a paladin, then there's never a need to go up to Darius and say "let me in!" because you can receive training from any other guild and have the abilities and spells of THAT guild as well.

I'll agree with you that the code is a man-made thing. However, that fact doesn't make it somehow less justified. Basically what the code is is a guideline of actions for a man-made guild. If you do not follow the guidelines, they do not want you to be in the guild, regardless of your status with the gods or not. So basically, Paladins who skirt this idea and just commit actions against the code all willy-nilly under the guise of "Gods make me a Paladin, not the code" are almost blatantly OOC because the paladin guild itself does not want paladins (champions) of dark gods in its ranks. The Paladin guild is NOT the place to be for worshipping (this goes beyond merely respecting them for their power or whatever but actually following their ideals) dark aspects. If ya do, well then that's great, but the guild would never let you advance if it knew you did, and that can be seen by just reading the code.

Dandon

"If they ever come up with a swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, Then Jumping Off Something" ~ Jack Handy

<<There is a way around your "fact". First, I don't believe that theft, torture, and murder are by definition "EVIL". I can think of situations where one of the afore mentioned acts would be construed as justice, or be deemed worthwhile by the moral majority......... The point is, there are (at least to me) situations where those actions are not necessarily "EVIL". >>

I understand your point, but this of course is a whole different discussion. I'm aware that you are an "absolute" relativist, and you basically don't believe in evil in the first place. You may or may not realize it, but what you?re doing here with your argument is yet another example of semantics. You?re just dancing around with definitions. Let me close the loop-hole here by better defining my terms.

In the case of torture I will agree that even Torture done in the name of justice is still ?torture". My point is, while you can think of a justification for torture, I would be hard pressed to find a greater good to justify it. Which is why I believe torture is inherently unjust. Therefore, if you accept the premise, for the sake of debate, that Murder, is the unjust slaying of innocent life, theft, is the unjust seizure of property, and torture, is the unjust infliction of suffering, then can you deny that they are inherently evil acts?

If they are inherently evil acts, then the guild indeeds puts restrictions on our behaviors as paladins, and on whom we should emulate and revere, and rightly so. The question isn't what Lennon or Aspasia personally beleives, what does the CODE, the traditions and the guild leader speeches say? And do the GM's (OOC) have to keep slapping us upside our foreheads with more (IC) sources so that we'll finally get it?

<<You completely sidestepped my example of situational contingencies such as with war. Sometimes people do act in the manners that emulate the behaviors of the dark immortals. Hell, think about the current war going on in Elanthia.>>

I see what you?re saying but really that's just a one-sided perspective. As a Paladin Aspasia believes in a philosophy of "just war". When she takes up arms, she isn't emulating the "dark" immortals, as you suggest, she's emulating the "light" ones.

She's goes to war and fights because it's the honorable and right thing to do, at least in her mind. She will not take up arms for what she believes is an unjust cause. She has sworn loyalty to the guild, because she believes it?s an honorable institution. But if ever the guild commanded her to commit acts of treachery or evil, she would immediately dissolve her membership with it.

<<Well actually you are incorrect here. What Darius does is very much the point. The guild leaders are there as examples of what a Paladin is. If a guild leader acts in some mannor and is not sanctioned for it, then its safe for the members of the guild to believe that the actions of said guild leader were not in err.>>

Your point is well taken, but, to me, it really just sounds like an excuse. The CODE prohibits the crimes Darius has been accused of. Whether or not he is guilty of the crimes does not relieve of us of our obligation to follow the CODE ourselves. Aspasia believes that after crossing the Starry Road, Chadatru will judge all paladins according to their adherence to the CODE. Using the ?But Darius did this!!? excuse won?t work. As paladins we are obligated to follow the path laid out for us without excuse. It?s called personal responsibility and accountability. It can be a scary thing.

Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)

"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."

Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.

Just a lil quote from the book of immortals..

>Botolf is also the god of fallen paladins, and often
appears in tarnished armor in need of a polish. His emblem is the goshawk.<

I find that interesting for a few reasons. One because it shows us that there is such a thing as the fallen paladin. On the other hand it also speaks to the possible view of the immortals that the attributes of such a dark aspect as Boltolf is not tollerable among the virtuous Paladins even from the immortals standpoint. I have to agree with this view because I cannot see a Paladin witout honor, whom lives in deciet, dishonesty, and corruption. A person such as that would serve as a contradiction to the ideals and principles of what the Paladin was founded upon.

Now that being said I still believe in the Dark Paladin, but these are two different entities..sects..beliefs in how to get to a solution. A dark Paladin should still be honorable, hold him or herself with dignity and pride, be courteous in their dealings with the gernal populace (Well maybe not Drongol) but at least be learned in the ways of courtesy and ettiquete, but cold, swift, and deadly when dealing with advesaries. It's simply that they are methodical, cold and calculating, and believe in the old eye for an eye type of justice. Lone wolf types that do not believe in the stereotype justice system that society as a majority depend upon and uphold.

The end is the same. Faith, Justice, and Honor. Its the path to getting there that forks.

Below are two of my favorite examples.

A Paladin of Urrem'tier serves as the justified reaper of souls whose time it is to return into the void. Particularly in war or on those who prey upon the weak and or defenseless whose time has not yet come, those who cheat death, or those in undeath.

A Paladin of Damaris/Phelim serves as the justified bringer of vengence. Protecting the innocent children of the lands from evils with remorse or care for their actions. Enacting swift vengence upon those whom take the lives of the innocent.

Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier

<<I understand your point, but this of course is a whole different discussion. I'm aware that you are an "absolute" relativist, and you basically don't believe in evil in the first place. You may or may not realize it, but what you?re doing here with your argument is yet another example of semantics. You?re just dancing around with definitions. Let me close the loop-hole here by better defining my terms.>>

And I understand all your points, I just think they are very biased and close minded. Keep in mind that Lennon is a neutral Paladin, not light, not dark. As such, just because I am explaining things from the dark aspects perspective, does not make me one of them. I simply think its very closed minded to think that light is the one true way, and the only way to be a Paladin. Hell I acted accordingly my first couple years in the game, but realized that reality (in Elanthia and the real world) wasn't like that.

What I have explained is not a different discussion. Its a matter of point that we cannot argue aboute the absuluteness of "evil" actions when in fact some don't see actions as being absolutely "evil". From a moral sense I can think of one action (or sets of action) that there is no justifiable moralistic reason for: sexual assault and rape (which I believe justifies the slow painful torture of the perptrator). Beyond that I can see a context that can justify any of the "evil" actions that have been laid out as behaviors the dark immortals of Elanthia engage in.

Further, how is my argument an example of semantics? I am stating the simple fact that the behaviors are only considered "evil" based on the context. Perhaps I have studied too much science, but nothing is an absolute unless occuring in a vacuum. My outlined example of war explains that. You may wish to believe in a "just war", which I can accept, however to claim that because its a "just war" the behaviors of murder, deciet, dishonesty, etc. are OK is skirting around the whole issue. You may wish to engage in these actions during wartime and believe you are acting as an extention of the "light", however tht does not negate the fact that the behaviors engaged in are the very ones, that you consider evil when they are applied to your own ingroup. They are the behaviors of the dark aspects, they are not the behaviors of the light ones. Call it what you wish, however only ducks (and duck impersonators)quack.

<<It?s called personal responsibility and accountability. It can be a scary thing.>>

Yes, so if you need help facing up to it, try praying to some of the dark immortals who's behaviors you emulate everytime you go hunting or join a war party.

--Just a "clueless" Squire

<<A Fallen Paladin, the way I use the term, is one who has violated or openly rejected THE CODE and teachings of the guild, therefore is not in good standing with it, but not neccesarily turned over to "darkness". In my mind one can be both "Fallen" and "Dark".>>

Bahh! You forgot the ! after CODE ::sigh::

--Just a "clueless" Squire

The CODE is getting SCARED.

~Maece

[[Space for Rent]]

Player of Lennon,

You are still full of hatred. I figured by taking a timeout you'd come back more civilized but you are back with your aggressive posting and as always posing as the owner of the truth. I refuse to argue this topic any further with you.

If anyone else wants to talk about the Darius thing and how we could take actions to fix it or propose ideas to fix it, feel free to write to my play.net addy.

Phanton

ps: Player of Lennon, don't bother replying.

<<You are still full of hatred. I figured by taking a timeout you'd come back more civilized but you are back with your aggressive posting and as always posing as the owner of the truth. I refuse to argue this topic any further with you.>>

I'm rubber, your glue.

Not sure where the hatred concept is coming from, perhaps you should stop projecting. Nothing I have posted has been with spite, hatred, or maliscious intent. Perhaps you need to stop thinking so highly of yourself. Sheesh this is not a conflict.

<<ps: Player of Lennon, don't bother replying. >>

Yeah OK, I'll do exactly as you say ::rolls eyes::

--Just a "clueless" Squire

PS: Player of Phanton feel free to reply, as it really matters not to me

::nudge:: Let's get back to business or cool down.

~Maece

[[Space for Rent]]

<<Let me close the loop-hole here by better defining my terms.>>

Your definitions are not the only definitions one can use to argue, and therefore are invalid. Sorry.

<<My point is, while you can think of a justification for torture, I would be hard pressed to find a greater good to justify it.>>

Very simple: if the individual being tortured is an enemy who has even a potential for knowing undisclosed information about an enemy organization that, for all that we know, is planning on taking the lives of many innocents, it is not only necessary, but appropriate for an individual to engage in torture to get said information.

<<As a Paladin Aspasia believes in a philosophy of "just war".>>

And when she goes out into a creature's territory and starts slaughtering them left and right, what philosophy does she follow?

<<Why do you keep going CODE instead of code.>>

She is emulating myself. However, I use CODE instead of code because it stresses the importance that many "shiny-types" put into the CODE. That it has changed nothing is readily apparent from even the most scrutinizing OOC read-over, but some folks here on the boards rely on it as though it was their own personal Stairway to Heaven.

Drongol's Player


PC also stands for "Paying Customer."

<<This would make ALL definitions invalid, thus making all conversation pointless. The trick is to get a definition of the term that is agreeable for everyone.>>

Therein lies the problem with most discussions/ arguments. The majority of people want to define things by there terms, typically in a manner that is exclusive of outside perspectives. Once someone comes up with an outside example that fits within this framework then they change the definition to exclude such examples (heh this is what linguists do every time someone comes up with examples of animal language that match up with their current "accepted" definition of language). The simple point is this: Its probably less work to just argue your perspective than to get people to agree on a definition. Hell look in Websters, most words have many definitions.

<<The cost of life to him far outweighs his obligation to stand in plain sight and face his foe with "honor". His honor in that instance isn't just hurting himself, it's hurting all those people as well.>>

This a perspective that I completely agree with. Its all well and good to retain your self perception of honor, or dignity. However, it really means little when everyone else is dying because of it.

--Just a "clueless" Squire

<<Would a Paladin be willing to sacrifice his own personal Honor? Which... in a way is an honorable thing in itself... Blast these mental loops of logic... >>

Very nice point.

--Just a "clueless" Squire

>>Would a Paladin be willing to sacrifice his own personal Honor?

It's how Pureblade works. Paladins are self-sacrificing, or are supposed to be.

Just depends on what you want to sacrifice. Pureblade really has no reason not to just give it all up. He's careless and wanton that way. :P

Need a babelfish for DragonRealms?

http://www.bakshiloa.com/libraryindex.html

<<Suggesting that a "definition of terms" is inappropriate in a discussion of conceptual logic and phillosophy demonstrates a lack of depth.>>

No, the reason why I suggest that you defining any terms in any discussion is inappropriate is because, as per your typical Dark Paladin tirade, you attempt to use the definitions to control the discussion.

Murder is not necessarily unjust, as can be seen by the number of murder charges which accrue in Zoluren. Likewise, theft is not necessarily unjust either, as in the case of stealing back what someone stole in the first place.

With these two examples, your definitions prove flawed, and therefore untenable.

Drongol's Player


PC also stands for "Paying Customer."

>So she never invades the homeland of a creature and sits there wondering what they're going to do about it, does she?

Thats different, duh.

<<By the gods I think Seihjin's got it! lol>>

You're surprised? Dark paladins have always been an interest, I don't consider them evil. More like the "Batman, Wolverine" style of "good guys" so to speak.

One interesting note on the dark/light paladin philosophies is what will happen when the reputation system comes out. I haven't read anything recent on how it will work but it will be interesting to see how DR views them (good/evil...) since it will reflect characters actions IG. GMPCs and NPCs will also respond to the character depending on the reputation. Those who truly wish to play dark paladins will be challenged.




B-Hon, Pullin Seihjin's Strings Behind the Scenes

I think the only appropriate answer is from an IC perspective.

Aspasia beleives that murder, in DR, is the unjust slaying of inncoent life as per Lanivals Compact. She's not a heretic for following Lanivals Compact, so let's not go down that route. The point is, you are basing your judgement on the presumption that the Compact is false. That is fine, however Aspasia is basing her judgement on the presumption that the Compact is true and divinely inspired.

There is more evidence to be argued than just a document however. All the unatural and beastly creatures, we "hunt" in Elanthia have proven themselves to be violent and harmfull. We recevie soul hits for viloating the Compact, the gods, even the "light" ones seemingly approve of us fighting and killing goblins and orcs. The goblins and orcs seemingly don't mind either as they enjoy hunting us as well.

Bottom line. Unless your character is content calling the Immortals liars and hippocrites, then you shouldn't criticize, judge, or use the hunting of abase creatures, as an example of a "neccesary evil".


Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)

"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."

Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.