Previous
<<First I'd like to offer an observation. All the so called Dark or "Greyish" types, with the exception of Slaris, seem to be opposed uniformally. Whereas most of the "Light" types seem to be uniformally for or at least unconcerned with the idea of a player-run, council.>>
How strange. Drongol is neither dark nor "greyish," and yet his player is vehemently opposed to the idea of a "ruling clique" of Paladin players with the authority to mess around with other players. Go figure.
<<I personally feel the newly penned CODE was merely meant to smack those too thick to grasp the basic truths of the calling, upside their head.>>
Whereas I think it was written simply to quell the whining of the few shiny-types who kept screaming "we don't have a CODE!!!!" for years on the boards.
<<If something is changed with magic, combat, justice, etc... wouldn't you rather see a council RP their decision to make that change, or would you rather just be sent a notice in Announcements or on these boards?>>
I'd rather see a notice. We do not need every little OOC change explained in some sort of IC fashion. Not only does the RP get ridiculous, but let's face it, changes can be implemented more quickly without requiring the CE staff to come up with some sort of explanation and schedule a time for it.
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
ROTHJ
DR-MAECE
Re: Comments
01/01/2004 08:05 AM CST
I don't think we've ever introduced a change that we didn't post on the boards and/or place in the news. I couldn't imagine making an IG change and leaving it only for an RP situation to pass the word along. The RP situation just tends to be the first
"advertisement" of a change.
And then as you say, some things can't be RP justified or is kind of minor in the grand scheme of things that no one is going to question why we didn't have an IC reasoning.
However, there are lots of other stuff that if there were no IC reasoning, I'd be spending more time apologizing for not having the foresight to create an event than if I just did the event. Whew! Long sentence ;)
~Maece
[[Space for Rent]]
"advertisement" of a change.
And then as you say, some things can't be RP justified or is kind of minor in the grand scheme of things that no one is going to question why we didn't have an IC reasoning.
However, there are lots of other stuff that if there were no IC reasoning, I'd be spending more time apologizing for not having the foresight to create an event than if I just did the event. Whew! Long sentence ;)
~Maece
[[Space for Rent]]
DRLIGHT
Re: Comments
01/01/2004 02:29 PM CST
<<I personally feel the newly penned CODE was merely meant to smack those too thick to grasp the basic truths of the calling, upside their head.>>
How come you always have to player bash people? Gez, learn that this is a game. Players do not need to follow a uniformed RP. Being unique (in some cases grey, dark, whatever) makes it more enjoyable to play because it's more realistic if given many choices instead of forced into one way of playing.
<<First I'd like to offer an observation. All the so called Dark or "Greyish" types, with the exception of Slaris, seem to be opposed uniformally. >>
Try rereading the replies from the post. NOONE was against the council idea. They were against the idea of mortals deciding who should get a soul hit.
<<THE CODE IS NOT A NEW INVENTION IT IS ONLY A REAFIRMATION.>>
As for the history of the code it was player created 7 years ago by a few of the elders at the time in how they wanted to RP thier paladins. The group that started the Codes trend were called the Order of the Dragon Knights. Not every paladin followed the code or even RP'd along with it.
The code now adays could be considered a new invention since it was created by a different group of people for different reasons. Ideas of it are the same, but the entire basis is that it allows for more of a directed RP. Note the word directed. This is a game that has always tried to be more RP dominate, the code just gives the paladin group that edge and guidence for new players. The code can or can not be followed, it can be interrupted how the player feels.
Let people play thier paladins and interrupt the code as they see fit. You play your character how you see fit. Please don't bash on players because they feel they can do more for this game by RP'ing a slightly darker or evil side that still has basis of being what a paladin is.
Ellsdragon
How come you always have to player bash people? Gez, learn that this is a game. Players do not need to follow a uniformed RP. Being unique (in some cases grey, dark, whatever) makes it more enjoyable to play because it's more realistic if given many choices instead of forced into one way of playing.
<<First I'd like to offer an observation. All the so called Dark or "Greyish" types, with the exception of Slaris, seem to be opposed uniformally. >>
Try rereading the replies from the post. NOONE was against the council idea. They were against the idea of mortals deciding who should get a soul hit.
<<THE CODE IS NOT A NEW INVENTION IT IS ONLY A REAFIRMATION.>>
As for the history of the code it was player created 7 years ago by a few of the elders at the time in how they wanted to RP thier paladins. The group that started the Codes trend were called the Order of the Dragon Knights. Not every paladin followed the code or even RP'd along with it.
The code now adays could be considered a new invention since it was created by a different group of people for different reasons. Ideas of it are the same, but the entire basis is that it allows for more of a directed RP. Note the word directed. This is a game that has always tried to be more RP dominate, the code just gives the paladin group that edge and guidence for new players. The code can or can not be followed, it can be interrupted how the player feels.
Let people play thier paladins and interrupt the code as they see fit. You play your character how you see fit. Please don't bash on players because they feel they can do more for this game by RP'ing a slightly darker or evil side that still has basis of being what a paladin is.
Ellsdragon
MAX
Re: Comments
01/01/2004 02:51 PM CST
thank you ells
Vidumavi exclaims, "Wait!"
Vidumavi points at you.
Vidumavi exclaims, "Your that Blasword guy!"
>nod vid
You nod to Vidumavi.
Vidumavi exclaims, "You are the bomb!"
Vidumavi exclaims, "Wait!"
Vidumavi points at you.
Vidumavi exclaims, "Your that Blasword guy!"
>nod vid
You nod to Vidumavi.
Vidumavi exclaims, "You are the bomb!"
PTAH
Re: Comments
01/02/2004 02:17 PM CST
Mr. Ellsdragon's Player.
No one is bashing anyone. No one, except you, has tried to specifically call anyone out. No one, except you, has attempted to specifically criticize anyone for expressing a polite personal opinion. I understand that many of you will not agree with what I say. But I think it's important to allow non-specific remarks to be made.
And now for clarification, something that would not be neccesary if you had been paying attention to my past posts. I have nothing against people interpreting the code and applying it to their character, as they choose, in the name of RPing. What I have a problem with is when people argue OOC, players not characters, about the supposed negative purpose and meaning of the CODE, whine that it's all some huge conspiracy whipped up in a dark smokey room, and act shocked and totally surprised, therefore assuming dirty pool, that the GM's implemented it. The facts had allways been there from the very begining of the debate years ago. And I think it's important that people realize this. That was the whole point of my post.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
No one is bashing anyone. No one, except you, has tried to specifically call anyone out. No one, except you, has attempted to specifically criticize anyone for expressing a polite personal opinion. I understand that many of you will not agree with what I say. But I think it's important to allow non-specific remarks to be made.
And now for clarification, something that would not be neccesary if you had been paying attention to my past posts. I have nothing against people interpreting the code and applying it to their character, as they choose, in the name of RPing. What I have a problem with is when people argue OOC, players not characters, about the supposed negative purpose and meaning of the CODE, whine that it's all some huge conspiracy whipped up in a dark smokey room, and act shocked and totally surprised, therefore assuming dirty pool, that the GM's implemented it. The facts had allways been there from the very begining of the debate years ago. And I think it's important that people realize this. That was the whole point of my post.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
DRLIGHT
Re: Comments
01/02/2004 02:38 PM CST
<<No one is bashing anyone. No one, except you, has tried to specifically call anyone out. No one, except you, has attempted to specifically criticize anyone for expressing a polite personal opinion. I understand that many of you will not agree with what I say. But I think it's important to allow non-specific remarks to be made.>>
All I pointed out was a comment you made and I quote "meant to smack those too thick to grasp the basic truths of the calling, upside their head." Calling people too thick is player bashing.
I then pointed out you were wrong in your summation of the posts and that people WERE for the idea of a council just not for a pc council giving other people soul hits.
Then I concluded by correcting your statement about the Code and gave it's origin. I don't know how you get this as bashing you or calling you out. I was simply correcting what you said and asked you not to bash on others.
I'm all for this council idea, I think it'll be great. I think we also need more ways in which paladins actually serve the gods, right now we really don't have anything. A council dedicated to perhaps serving the gods and coming up with ways to do that would be a nice RP and a way for people to get involved.
Ellsdragon Dride
All I pointed out was a comment you made and I quote "meant to smack those too thick to grasp the basic truths of the calling, upside their head." Calling people too thick is player bashing.
I then pointed out you were wrong in your summation of the posts and that people WERE for the idea of a council just not for a pc council giving other people soul hits.
Then I concluded by correcting your statement about the Code and gave it's origin. I don't know how you get this as bashing you or calling you out. I was simply correcting what you said and asked you not to bash on others.
I'm all for this council idea, I think it'll be great. I think we also need more ways in which paladins actually serve the gods, right now we really don't have anything. A council dedicated to perhaps serving the gods and coming up with ways to do that would be a nice RP and a way for people to get involved.
Ellsdragon Dride
PTAH
Re: Comments
01/02/2004 11:12 PM CST
<<All I pointed out was a comment you made and I quote "meant to smack those too thick to grasp the basic truths of the calling, upside their head." Calling people too thick is player bashing.>>
No it isn't. Saying the CODE was meant to "bash" YOU upside the head is "bashing". Saying it's meant to bash those who are "Too thick" is not bashing. Unless you consider yourself one of the "thick", which I doubt you do.
Besides It was a general statement. It appears you took personal offense to it. Whether or not it's bashing, (I can only speak for my intent, not your perceptions) dosn't affect the truth of the statement in question.
The fact is, it's unfortunate that a formal CODE had to be whipped out. But it was neccesary because some people were incapable of grasping some obvious clues. And in my personal opinion those people are "thick". Which in fairness isn't the worst thing to call someone. And also in fairness it is a polite opinion (dosn't name any one, specify individuals, or bring up specific instances), whether or not certain people, including yourself, happen to appreciate it.
There's no need to call people out here, sir. And beleive me, I have the upmost respect for you. After all you were Aspasia's first contact when she ventured into the realms some 5 years ago. You were her first mentor. I'm curious if you remember.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
MOD-ANNWYL
::Nudge:: Re: Comments
01/03/2004 03:36 PM CST
I'm watching this thread, if there's nothing constructive to add we'll be ending it.
Questions or comments - take it to e-mail, MOD-Annwyl@Play.net or Senior Board Monitor DR-Redryn@Play.net or Senior Board Monitor DR-Emony@Play.net.
MOD-Annwyl
Questions or comments - take it to e-mail, MOD-Annwyl@Play.net or Senior Board Monitor DR-Redryn@Play.net or Senior Board Monitor DR-Emony@Play.net.
MOD-Annwyl
SEORDMIR
Re: Comments
01/15/2004 11:09 AM CST
Well well...
::stretches:: I do believe the most important word here is "choice". If we truly want to talk about Paladins and what separates them from the rest in terms of their code and honor and chivalry then what is more important than freedom? Is it not my freedom of choice to choose my own patron? Are you saying that because I chose to walk the path of the Paladin that I must succumb to the choice of but one path? One god? I think not. No mortal laws will dictate to me my path, only he whose black gates shall accept you when your mortal body no longer has purpose shall dictate to me my path.
Let the light die, I shall still remain true to my profession and the edicts that come along with the honor of its purpose...only the weak of mind and spirit are afraid of the dark.
Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
True Paladin of Darkness
Servant Knight of Urrem'tier
::stretches:: I do believe the most important word here is "choice". If we truly want to talk about Paladins and what separates them from the rest in terms of their code and honor and chivalry then what is more important than freedom? Is it not my freedom of choice to choose my own patron? Are you saying that because I chose to walk the path of the Paladin that I must succumb to the choice of but one path? One god? I think not. No mortal laws will dictate to me my path, only he whose black gates shall accept you when your mortal body no longer has purpose shall dictate to me my path.
Let the light die, I shall still remain true to my profession and the edicts that come along with the honor of its purpose...only the weak of mind and spirit are afraid of the dark.
Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
True Paladin of Darkness
Servant Knight of Urrem'tier
PTAH
Re: Comments
01/15/2004 07:55 PM CST
<<::stretches:: I do believe the most important word here is "choice". If we truly want to talk about Paladins and what separates them from the rest in terms of their code and honor and chivalry then what is more important than freedom? Is it not my freedom of choice to choose my own patron? Are you saying that because I chose to walk the path of the Paladin that I must succumb to the choice of but one path? One god? I think not. No mortal laws will dictate to me my path, only he whose black gates shall accept you when your mortal body no longer has purpose shall dictate to me my path.>>
I really like your speech and your unique perspective. However, If you're suggesting that "freedom" is the most important aspect of any code a paladin should follow. Then I must respectfully disagree. Freedom may indeed be the most important aspect for a "ranger" a "Barbarian" or a "bard". But I contend that a paladin is defined by his discipline, and honor.
Honor, I would argue, cannot be defined by "freedom" in a general sense. Freedom is a seperate issue from "honor", because one need not be free to be honorable. And one need not be honorable to be free. Freedom is a highly subjective value. Would you agree?
Some freedoms are good, others are bad. Absolute freedom is absolutely dangerous. Laws, rules and standards serve to provide boundries for unacceptable actions and behaviors. In this context our code serves as the boundry for our characters guild. And I think it is a reasonable and well thought out set of rules, that serves the Paladin guild well and stays true to the theme and backround of the guild. Whether or not you agree with it, is another issue, of course.
Heh, I missed you Seordmir.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
SEORDMIR
Re: Comments
01/15/2004 11:33 PM CST
Freedom is not subjective. It is what it is and no mortal can define its boundaries. Laws are meant to be guidelines much as a bible is a foundation for the moral principles of a race. It is highly unlikely that any god is going to send forth some holy avatar to strike a person down if they choose the incorrect path or do not follow the edicts that a patron has set forth. Even more unlikely that they will visit themselves to hold your hand and tell you how you must lead your life. No. Mortals were placed upon this world to live their life as they see fit, as a free people. How is it you think mortals are able to make laws if they are not free to do so? Are you telling me then that the gods grant certain individuals to create laws that govern the mortal world? No, that was decided by society as a whole as to how they govern themselves. Again freedom. Whether one particular freedom or another is good or evil is not to be decided by any mortal being. We are to be judged only at our lifes end by the immortals whose ways are not for us to understand. If freedom was not a gift of the gods, if it was our purpose to live only by the will of the immortals then where are these magical edicts that tell us how we are to live our lives? Where are these divine avatars of justice who will strike down those whom do not follow their chosen path? The answer is there are no such things because such things were left to the mortals own will to decide for themselves.
Now one thing is certain about the Paladin guild. While the guild can make codes and laws brought forth by the mortals that choose to govern it. It is the immortals that gave us our abilities and while I choose not to follow the pejudice and close minded code or edicts set forth by those such as Darius, amazing it is that I still am a Paladin and still favored by the immortals despite my choice of path. Now where I can partially agree with you, is that if a Paladin serves to dishonor him or her position and the guild then that Paladin should be punished. However a behavior can be punishable by mortals who have set rules regarding such things. But to punish a people because of whom they choose to worship, the color of ones skin or their nationality, the gender they were born,....well theres quite another name for that isn't there?
I chose the path of Darkness and to serve my Lord Patron Urrem'tier as is my right as a mortal child of the gods whom have blessed me with this freedom. Only they may take that away from me and I will fight until my dying breath and the dark one has requested my immortal soul be returned to the void before I let any mortal take my freedoms from me.
Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier
Now one thing is certain about the Paladin guild. While the guild can make codes and laws brought forth by the mortals that choose to govern it. It is the immortals that gave us our abilities and while I choose not to follow the pejudice and close minded code or edicts set forth by those such as Darius, amazing it is that I still am a Paladin and still favored by the immortals despite my choice of path. Now where I can partially agree with you, is that if a Paladin serves to dishonor him or her position and the guild then that Paladin should be punished. However a behavior can be punishable by mortals who have set rules regarding such things. But to punish a people because of whom they choose to worship, the color of ones skin or their nationality, the gender they were born,....well theres quite another name for that isn't there?
I chose the path of Darkness and to serve my Lord Patron Urrem'tier as is my right as a mortal child of the gods whom have blessed me with this freedom. Only they may take that away from me and I will fight until my dying breath and the dark one has requested my immortal soul be returned to the void before I let any mortal take my freedoms from me.
Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier
PTAH
Re: Comments
01/16/2004 11:54 AM CST
<<No. Mortals were placed upon this world to live their life as they see fit, as a free people. How is it you think mortals are able to make laws if they are not free to do so? Are you telling me then that the gods grant certain individuals to create laws that govern the mortal world? No, that was decided by society as a whole as to how they govern themselves. Again freedom. Whether one particular freedom or another is good or evil is not to be decided by any mortal being.>>
Then are we to blindly follow anything an immortal commands or says? Even if it violates our characters oaths as paladins? Each god may very well have their own set of commandments and religious principles. If Damaris commands a paladin to commence slaughtering people who don't like him, would that mean every paladin was obligated to obey him? And what if Chadatru, commanded his followers to slaughter all of Damaris's worshipers?
The point, I'm trying to make is this. The Paladin's guild is NOT a religion. Our character's personal religious choices are made outside of the job. While we receive benefits and empowerment from all 13, we are not obligated to follow them or worship them. We are only commanded by our CODE and tradition to fight DARKNESS. We, as sworn members of this guild, are obligated to obey it's CODE and laws. The codes and laws are not the province of any specific deity or immortal, we serve all 13 by fighting for justice, and light. Yes, all 13, even the dark ones are served by our battle against darkness.
Keep in mind, Laws and rules, are only tools used by society to keep it orderly and just. However, I'm not talking about society in general here, only the guild. The issue isn't whether the rules and laws of our guild happen to be absolutely perfect. But which rules and laws are the best ones to have. I think the CODE, as it exists now, works well and serves its own purpose effectively.
<<Now one thing is certain about the Paladin guild. While the guild can make codes and laws brought forth by the mortals that choose to govern it. It is the immortals that gave us our abilities and while I choose not to follow the prejudice and close minded code or edicts set forth by those such as Darius, amazing it is that I still am a Paladin and still favored by the immortals despite my choice of path........But to punish a people because of whom they choose to worship, the color of ones skin or their nationality, the gender they were born,....well there's quite another name for that isn't there?>>
A couple of things here. Yes we are empowered by all 13, our powers do not come from one specific deity or another. Our guild is an enterprise, honored and given power by all the immortals for the purpose of keeping order and justice on Elanthia. To that end even the "dark" gods empower us, because they know that allowing chaos and evil on a grand scale would be catastrophic to society and their goals, and so long as they are not forced to follow any rule themselves, see no problem enforcing them on mortals.
The last part here, which you hint at religious Elanthian discrimination, allow me to answer that one as well. While I'm not denying that certain religions are disliked more than others. I don't find it a fair or reasonable argument to assert that the guild is guilty of unfair discrimination because they adopt policies, rules and codes which conflict with the path of a "dark paladin".
The whole point from the very beginning is that "dark paladins" while interesting types of characters to play, and hence permitted under RP freedom to for us to play, are really an anathema to the guild. They are heretics and defilers of the CODE in an IC-sense, so why should the guild accommodate practitioners of heresy? The CODE is in keeping with the RP flavor of a Paladins guild. So I don't think it's any more unfairly discriminatory than a Church who won't allow, devoted Satanists to join them.
Just my thoughts.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
SEORDMIR
Re: Comments
01/16/2004 09:16 PM CST
>Then are we to blindly follow anything an immortal commands or says? Even if it violates our characters oaths as paladins? Each god may very well have their own set of commandments and religious principles. If Damaris commands a paladin to commence slaughtering people who don't like him, would that mean every paladin was obligated to obey him? And what if Chadatru, commanded his followers to slaughter all of Damaris's worshipers?<
This sums up your entire point of view right here. This is where you are completely backward about the hierarchy of mortals vs. immortals and their roles. The answer to your question is yes. Name one religion where a god comes down among the people to prove his/her etc existence among mortals? There isn't one. Why? Because faith is generally blind. Your oath as a Paladin does not come before the immortals who are responsible for you even existing in the first place. Everything you have written has shown me that for some strange reason you think that mortal rules and laws are even above what the immortals themselves may command or set forth as guidelins or as paths for mortals to choose. How can any mortal claim to be above their creators??? Yes if Damaris sent down an avatar or himself came down upon the mortal world declaring that any Paladin who woships him go out and slay any who oppose him, then it is the duty of those Paladins of Damaris to follow their lord patrons will because that has become their charge.
In the face of your patron who has the will to detmine whether or not you exist, are you truly going to challenge their will? Or is it more likely that you would more likely follow a patron whose will is more attuned to your own beliefs? I follow Urrem'tier knowing full well that he may call upon me to take the life or lives of others whose time it is to surrender their souls to the void.
Immortal will dictates over mortal law
Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier
This sums up your entire point of view right here. This is where you are completely backward about the hierarchy of mortals vs. immortals and their roles. The answer to your question is yes. Name one religion where a god comes down among the people to prove his/her etc existence among mortals? There isn't one. Why? Because faith is generally blind. Your oath as a Paladin does not come before the immortals who are responsible for you even existing in the first place. Everything you have written has shown me that for some strange reason you think that mortal rules and laws are even above what the immortals themselves may command or set forth as guidelins or as paths for mortals to choose. How can any mortal claim to be above their creators??? Yes if Damaris sent down an avatar or himself came down upon the mortal world declaring that any Paladin who woships him go out and slay any who oppose him, then it is the duty of those Paladins of Damaris to follow their lord patrons will because that has become their charge.
In the face of your patron who has the will to detmine whether or not you exist, are you truly going to challenge their will? Or is it more likely that you would more likely follow a patron whose will is more attuned to your own beliefs? I follow Urrem'tier knowing full well that he may call upon me to take the life or lives of others whose time it is to surrender their souls to the void.
Immortal will dictates over mortal law
Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier
PTAH
Re: Comments
01/16/2004 11:48 PM CST
Krymson's Player..
Look, the point is, the guild is not a religion, like you incorrectly allude to. So I think your assertions may have validity only if Krymson were a Cleric.
The guild is a secular institution, empowered by the gods, for the purpose of upholding justice. The guild is not empowered by the gods for the furtherence of their particular religious teachings. This is where we disagree. I think it becomes problematic when you try to apply your characters personal religious views over the teachings of the guild. From an IC-sense, if Krymson's personal religious views conflict with the guild teachings, he shoulda thought of that before he joined. If it's too big a problem for him, there's allways the Cleric guild.
Just keep in mind, their are no Paladins of Uretemir or Chadatru, or Hodineria. Their are only PALADINS, plain and simple. You can worship any of the Immortals or even a head of cabbage if you like, but it's your characters responsibillity to uphold the laws and teachings of the guild. If you don't, you should be rightly considered a heretic or fallen paladin.
Now, with all that said, from an OOC-sense, it would make for some interesting RPing, and there is nothing at all wrong with creative RPing.....so feel free to knock yourself out.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
Look, the point is, the guild is not a religion, like you incorrectly allude to. So I think your assertions may have validity only if Krymson were a Cleric.
The guild is a secular institution, empowered by the gods, for the purpose of upholding justice. The guild is not empowered by the gods for the furtherence of their particular religious teachings. This is where we disagree. I think it becomes problematic when you try to apply your characters personal religious views over the teachings of the guild. From an IC-sense, if Krymson's personal religious views conflict with the guild teachings, he shoulda thought of that before he joined. If it's too big a problem for him, there's allways the Cleric guild.
Just keep in mind, their are no Paladins of Uretemir or Chadatru, or Hodineria. Their are only PALADINS, plain and simple. You can worship any of the Immortals or even a head of cabbage if you like, but it's your characters responsibillity to uphold the laws and teachings of the guild. If you don't, you should be rightly considered a heretic or fallen paladin.
Now, with all that said, from an OOC-sense, it would make for some interesting RPing, and there is nothing at all wrong with creative RPing.....so feel free to knock yourself out.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
SEORDMIR
Re: Comments
01/16/2004 11:58 PM CST
>The guild is a secular institution, empowered by the gods, for the purpose of upholding justice. The guild is not empowered by the gods for the furtherence of their particular religious teachings. This is where we disagree. I think it becomes problematic when you try to apply your characters personal religious views over the teachings of the guild. From an IC-sense, if Krymson's personal religious views conflict with the guild teachings, he shoulda thought of that before he joined. If it's too big a problem for him, there's allways the Cleric guild.<
::chuckles:: Watch the tone there Aspasia, for I truly do not wish to lose my own temper.
You are again incorrect in your assumptions. Is not a Paladin a holy warrior? Where the cleric or priest is the teacher of the faith, the Paladin was the defender of the faith. Surely you should know that. If you don't I can recommend several books and go back to quoting yet again as I have done many many times in this forum. It is not about personal religious views. It's about the fact that you first have to understand what the Paladin is and everything else will fall into place. As a protector of the faith our duty is to the Immortals, it is virtue that the guild teaches us to uphold. Now you also want to talk about mechanics...sure in the current game format there are only Paladins, but then thats what separates roleplayers from the rest then doesn't it.
Oh and by the way, there are openings in the Barbarian guild as well. The only beings capable of stripping a Paladin of his powers and considering him fallen are the Immortals. The most mortals can hope for is to excommunicate the Paladin, but they have no divine will to remove his or her abilities. Think on that a bit.
Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier
::chuckles:: Watch the tone there Aspasia, for I truly do not wish to lose my own temper.
You are again incorrect in your assumptions. Is not a Paladin a holy warrior? Where the cleric or priest is the teacher of the faith, the Paladin was the defender of the faith. Surely you should know that. If you don't I can recommend several books and go back to quoting yet again as I have done many many times in this forum. It is not about personal religious views. It's about the fact that you first have to understand what the Paladin is and everything else will fall into place. As a protector of the faith our duty is to the Immortals, it is virtue that the guild teaches us to uphold. Now you also want to talk about mechanics...sure in the current game format there are only Paladins, but then thats what separates roleplayers from the rest then doesn't it.
Oh and by the way, there are openings in the Barbarian guild as well. The only beings capable of stripping a Paladin of his powers and considering him fallen are the Immortals. The most mortals can hope for is to excommunicate the Paladin, but they have no divine will to remove his or her abilities. Think on that a bit.
Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier
CHARISMATICA
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 12:02 AM CST
<< The only beings capable of stripping a Paladin of his powers and considering him fallen are the Immortals. The most mortals can hope for is to excommunicate the Paladin, but they have no divine will to remove his or her abilities.>>
The Euthyphro.
When it can be shown that ALL the gods agree on who and who should not receive "Paladin powers", this argument will hold water.
Also, if the Immortals decide who gets the powers and who does not, there is no need for a guild. Paladins wouldn't need to exist as a collection, because someone of a completely different guild could gain these abilities. It just doesn't make sense to say that only Immortals makes Paladins, but they only choose people who belong to this guild...called Paladins.
Dandon
"If they ever come up with a swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, Then Jumping Off Something" ~ Jack Handy
SEORDMIR
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 12:43 AM CST
>When it can be shown that ALL the gods agree on who and who should not receive "Paladin powers", this argument will hold water.<
When you can show me how mortals were granted the ability to bestoy holy powers, not spells mind you, upon other mortals then the alternative will hold water.
>Also, if the Immortals decide who gets the powers and who does not, there is no need for a guild. Paladins wouldn't need to exist as a collection, because someone of a completely different guild could gain these abilities. It just doesn't make sense to say that only Immortals makes Paladins, but they only choose people who belong to this guild...called Paladins.<
The Immortals do not decide what makes a Paladin. The path of the Paladin is about choice like it is for any other profession. The immortals grant the Paladin his or her abilities to those whom step forward to take up the charge of the profession. So yes they would choose to grant the abilities of the profession to those whom choose to join the collected group of Holy warriors known also as Paladins. The question is why did this group form? Well if you believe that the reason in DR matches that of reality then one of those primary charges is to protect and uphold the faith along with its lands and holdings and therefore what is believed to be the will or path of god.
If the mechanics allowed, I can guarantee you that the guild as it exists today would be no more, but rather several sects of Paladinhoods would exist based upon the paths and edicts they choose to uphold.
Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier
When you can show me how mortals were granted the ability to bestoy holy powers, not spells mind you, upon other mortals then the alternative will hold water.
>Also, if the Immortals decide who gets the powers and who does not, there is no need for a guild. Paladins wouldn't need to exist as a collection, because someone of a completely different guild could gain these abilities. It just doesn't make sense to say that only Immortals makes Paladins, but they only choose people who belong to this guild...called Paladins.<
The Immortals do not decide what makes a Paladin. The path of the Paladin is about choice like it is for any other profession. The immortals grant the Paladin his or her abilities to those whom step forward to take up the charge of the profession. So yes they would choose to grant the abilities of the profession to those whom choose to join the collected group of Holy warriors known also as Paladins. The question is why did this group form? Well if you believe that the reason in DR matches that of reality then one of those primary charges is to protect and uphold the faith along with its lands and holdings and therefore what is believed to be the will or path of god.
If the mechanics allowed, I can guarantee you that the guild as it exists today would be no more, but rather several sects of Paladinhoods would exist based upon the paths and edicts they choose to uphold.
Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier
PTAH
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 12:45 AM CST
I would agree with Dandon.
Honestly Seordmir, there really is no pretext for assuming that DR paladins owe allgience to specific immortals for their powers. Again I would point out that we are a guild who serves the collective goal, of protecting Elanthia, promoting order, and preserving justice. That is how we serve them, and to the only ends we are empowered by them. I can quote numerous sources, including the CODE and guild leaders speeches to back this up.
You are coming from an opinion which would divide the guild into numerous schizms. Paladins of So-and-so, Paladins of this person, paladins of that person etc.... Really there is only ONE paladin. And that ONE type of paladin is defined and governed by the CODE and tradition. No matter how much you dislike it, it is a fact. Your take on the guild, while interesing, and unique is not the norm.
Now you can argue about how bad an idea it is to have this code or the traditions or speeches, but you really can't argue with the fact that they exist. Nor can you rationally argue against the fact that the sources suggest, following a "dark" path, may in truth be a dishonorable act.
That is all I'm saying. If you want to play a "dark" paladin, that's fine, I have no problem with it OOC. But IC, being "dark", if that means rejecting the code and traditions, can reasonably be considered a mark of dishonor within the guild. I don't think that's too much of a stretch to assume.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
Honestly Seordmir, there really is no pretext for assuming that DR paladins owe allgience to specific immortals for their powers. Again I would point out that we are a guild who serves the collective goal, of protecting Elanthia, promoting order, and preserving justice. That is how we serve them, and to the only ends we are empowered by them. I can quote numerous sources, including the CODE and guild leaders speeches to back this up.
You are coming from an opinion which would divide the guild into numerous schizms. Paladins of So-and-so, Paladins of this person, paladins of that person etc.... Really there is only ONE paladin. And that ONE type of paladin is defined and governed by the CODE and tradition. No matter how much you dislike it, it is a fact. Your take on the guild, while interesing, and unique is not the norm.
Now you can argue about how bad an idea it is to have this code or the traditions or speeches, but you really can't argue with the fact that they exist. Nor can you rationally argue against the fact that the sources suggest, following a "dark" path, may in truth be a dishonorable act.
That is all I'm saying. If you want to play a "dark" paladin, that's fine, I have no problem with it OOC. But IC, being "dark", if that means rejecting the code and traditions, can reasonably be considered a mark of dishonor within the guild. I don't think that's too much of a stretch to assume.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
SEORDMIR
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 01:11 AM CST
>You are coming from an opinion which would divide the guild into numerous schizms. Paladins of So-and-so, Paladins of this person, paladins of that person etc.... Really there is only ONE paladin. And that ONE type of paladin is defined and governed by the CODE and tradition. No matter how much you dislike it, it is a fact. Your take on the guild, while interesing, and unique is not the norm.<
Now your getting it. But it's not a unique idea. It is the norm. The fact is the only thing that keeps this from being the case today are mechanics. You are completely opposed to the idea that Paladins just like any other guild is capable of diversity which is most unfortunate. But in any form of reality that you place any group with the ability to choose their own path, will divide into smaller groups depending upon how much choice is given them. So what you are basically suggesting is that the Paladin guild is the one guild in which there can be no choice, no freedom but that of following Chadatrus will and thus the path of justice and light. Ummm nice but no. That would only work in this fantasy environment where things are controlled through the games limitations and mechanics or rather the limitations of those whom have created it. But in the real world there is diversity and believe me just because the title "Paladin" was not used for every holy warrior that existed, does not make them any less the Paladin...and believe me every culture had its holy warriors even though not all rode horses and carried a lance and their religions varied as much as anything else. Now if your going to argue that Paladins were more about a group of individuals who followed a set standard or code then they may as well make us Knights or something similar to the Samurai.
Sorry Brittany but its the IC part that doesn't make any sense. The very term Paladin is defined as champion or warrior with a cause or purpose, but if thats the case hell every Knight was a Paladin. No the true historical difference is that Paladins were tied to chivalric code which was derived from the virtues set forth by the church. Now when there is but one god, and one religion then your idea of having one unified guild under one god works. But in a world where there are 13 immortals not including their aspects? Theres just no way any mortals can control a group of holy warriors deciding that they don't wish to follow that path and go off to form their own with edicts closer matching those of the patron they serve...and no less the Paladin because of it. They are still holy warriors, upholding their faith, and still holding true to the virtues of the organization or profession.
Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier
Now your getting it. But it's not a unique idea. It is the norm. The fact is the only thing that keeps this from being the case today are mechanics. You are completely opposed to the idea that Paladins just like any other guild is capable of diversity which is most unfortunate. But in any form of reality that you place any group with the ability to choose their own path, will divide into smaller groups depending upon how much choice is given them. So what you are basically suggesting is that the Paladin guild is the one guild in which there can be no choice, no freedom but that of following Chadatrus will and thus the path of justice and light. Ummm nice but no. That would only work in this fantasy environment where things are controlled through the games limitations and mechanics or rather the limitations of those whom have created it. But in the real world there is diversity and believe me just because the title "Paladin" was not used for every holy warrior that existed, does not make them any less the Paladin...and believe me every culture had its holy warriors even though not all rode horses and carried a lance and their religions varied as much as anything else. Now if your going to argue that Paladins were more about a group of individuals who followed a set standard or code then they may as well make us Knights or something similar to the Samurai.
Sorry Brittany but its the IC part that doesn't make any sense. The very term Paladin is defined as champion or warrior with a cause or purpose, but if thats the case hell every Knight was a Paladin. No the true historical difference is that Paladins were tied to chivalric code which was derived from the virtues set forth by the church. Now when there is but one god, and one religion then your idea of having one unified guild under one god works. But in a world where there are 13 immortals not including their aspects? Theres just no way any mortals can control a group of holy warriors deciding that they don't wish to follow that path and go off to form their own with edicts closer matching those of the patron they serve...and no less the Paladin because of it. They are still holy warriors, upholding their faith, and still holding true to the virtues of the organization or profession.
Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 05:45 AM CST
I love that Pureblade worships Albarian gods and just makes nice with the Kermorian ones.
You wacky Kermorian Paladins, you!
You wacky Kermorian Paladins, you!
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RELAYER99
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 05:49 AM CST
>I love that Pureblade worships Albarian gods and just makes nice with the Kermorian ones.
Does he gain favors from Albarian gods or Kermorian ones?
Holy Guardian Relayer Eloy of M'Riss
http://darkanvil.bravepages.com/Index.html
You can fight
Without ever winning
But never ever win
Without a fight
Does he gain favors from Albarian gods or Kermorian ones?
Holy Guardian Relayer Eloy of M'Riss
http://darkanvil.bravepages.com/Index.html
You can fight
Without ever winning
But never ever win
Without a fight
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 05:53 AM CST
Kermorian ones. It's more because it makes perfect sense to make nice with the local pantheon, as they are the ones who run the joint.
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RELAYER99
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 06:05 AM CST
>Kermorian ones. It's more because it makes perfect sense to make nice with the local pantheon, as they are the ones who run the joint.
Or is it that you can't gain favors from the Albarian gods? Not trying to downplay the roleplay, just curious.
Holy Guardian Relayer Eloy of M'Riss
http://darkanvil.bravepages.com/Index.html
You can fight
Without ever winning
But never ever win
Without a fight
Or is it that you can't gain favors from the Albarian gods? Not trying to downplay the roleplay, just curious.
Holy Guardian Relayer Eloy of M'Riss
http://darkanvil.bravepages.com/Index.html
You can fight
Without ever winning
But never ever win
Without a fight
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 06:07 AM CST
>>Or is it that you can't gain favors from the Albarian gods? Not trying to downplay the roleplay, just curious.
Can't.
But, roleplay wise, it makes sense in the way I'm having Pureblade view things.
There are no set gods that rule the entire universe. Gods are like kings, only on a great scale. Pantheons rule their own little areas of the world, and don't tend to mess with each other. The 39 are the gods that rule over Kermoria, so it makes sense to be nice to the locals that have the sway.
Can't.
But, roleplay wise, it makes sense in the way I'm having Pureblade view things.
There are no set gods that rule the entire universe. Gods are like kings, only on a great scale. Pantheons rule their own little areas of the world, and don't tend to mess with each other. The 39 are the gods that rule over Kermoria, so it makes sense to be nice to the locals that have the sway.
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ROTHJ
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 07:14 AM CST
Brittany, you obviously put Guild before God, and therefore have answered one of the more difficult moral decisions facing each individual Paladin.
That said, one is supposed to be loyal to the Guild AND their God(s), as stated in the CODE. Judging by your own perspective, and using your ridiculous hypothetical examples as a basis, one can assume that Aspasia would, if ordered by Darius, go around and defile every altar to every Immortal in Kermoria.
After all, we are not a church. If Darius tells you to do it, it must be right.
Some folks, for whatever reason, are going to have more faith in the Immortals than in the Guild. For other folks, like yourself, that will be reversed. Isn't life wonderful?
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
That said, one is supposed to be loyal to the Guild AND their God(s), as stated in the CODE. Judging by your own perspective, and using your ridiculous hypothetical examples as a basis, one can assume that Aspasia would, if ordered by Darius, go around and defile every altar to every Immortal in Kermoria.
After all, we are not a church. If Darius tells you to do it, it must be right.
Some folks, for whatever reason, are going to have more faith in the Immortals than in the Guild. For other folks, like yourself, that will be reversed. Isn't life wonderful?
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
LENNONJON
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 12:47 PM CST
Well put Drongol. A simply outline of how there are two perceptions to this (and many issues). Neither one is necessarily correct, they are both based on your own beliefs, and as such hold true to you. I align myself more with Krymsons view than with Aspasia's. Yet I won't judge Aspasia's view unless we were to come to some face-to-face conflict where only one of our perspectives could prevail in a situation.
To me Paladins are free to allign themselves with whichever immortal(s) they wish, as long as it makes sense under the guise of the guild (which again is open to everyones personal interpretation).
--Just a "clueless" Squire
To me Paladins are free to allign themselves with whichever immortal(s) they wish, as long as it makes sense under the guise of the guild (which again is open to everyones personal interpretation).
--Just a "clueless" Squire
KINGDWARF
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 01:30 PM CST
>>To me Paladins are free to allign themselves with whichever immortal(s) they wish, as long as it makes sense under the guise of the guild (which again is open to everyones personal interpretation).
From the Code posted by the council on choosing thy god.
~A Paladin is Holy~
He seeks to do that which pleases his god in all manners of the
Code, and knows that the purity of his soul has a profound impact
on the abilities the gods bless him with.
While it is not required that a Paladin worships Chadatru or Rutilor
above other gods, he ignores the wishes of the God of Justice at his
peril. Serving another god or gods is possible for a Paladin provided
that the path that he follows does not work against Good or Justice.
It is not appropriate for a Paladin to work toward the ends of a dark
aspect since the goals of such are not in keeping with what is Good
and Just.
So aye there tis some choice, as long as ye art not serving a god working against Justice or what tis Good.
Granyt Fyrforg
From the Code posted by the council on choosing thy god.
~A Paladin is Holy~
He seeks to do that which pleases his god in all manners of the
Code, and knows that the purity of his soul has a profound impact
on the abilities the gods bless him with.
While it is not required that a Paladin worships Chadatru or Rutilor
above other gods, he ignores the wishes of the God of Justice at his
peril. Serving another god or gods is possible for a Paladin provided
that the path that he follows does not work against Good or Justice.
It is not appropriate for a Paladin to work toward the ends of a dark
aspect since the goals of such are not in keeping with what is Good
and Just.
So aye there tis some choice, as long as ye art not serving a god working against Justice or what tis Good.
Granyt Fyrforg
ROTHJ
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 01:47 PM CST
<<So aye there tis some choice, as long as ye art not serving a god working against Justice or what tis Good.>>
Wrong. "Inappropriate" is not "forbidden."
It is inappropriate for Pureblade to go around in a corset. It is inappropriate for a person to make lewd comments. It is inappropriate for Drongol to be a sexist, racist jerk.
And yet none of these things will get a Paladin in trouble with the Guild.
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
Wrong. "Inappropriate" is not "forbidden."
It is inappropriate for Pureblade to go around in a corset. It is inappropriate for a person to make lewd comments. It is inappropriate for Drongol to be a sexist, racist jerk.
And yet none of these things will get a Paladin in trouble with the Guild.
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
SEORDMIR
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 02:10 PM CST
Good post Fyrforge. The question I will say I'm on the fence with is the dark aspects. I would have to agree that based upon their descriptions they are in direct conflict with the moral virtues of the guild. Of course it could be stated that every religion has its own set of moral values or beliefs and therefore would not be in conflict with their own set of values.
Not sure about that one....Urrem'tier is a neutral aspect which allows me to play a Paladin that worships the darkest of the primary gods, but on the other hand it gives me room to play him as a person that respects all the gods and understands how each has their purpose and that death is but one point in the circle of existence. But as for one who plays a dark aspect...hmmm I'd have to hear their side and would definately love to hear their viewpoints.
Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier
Not sure about that one....Urrem'tier is a neutral aspect which allows me to play a Paladin that worships the darkest of the primary gods, but on the other hand it gives me room to play him as a person that respects all the gods and understands how each has their purpose and that death is but one point in the circle of existence. But as for one who plays a dark aspect...hmmm I'd have to hear their side and would definately love to hear their viewpoints.
Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier
DR-SSRA
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 03:00 PM CST
Don't forget it's not appropriate for the player of Drongol to not be in some sort of argument/debate about Dark vs. Light Paladins.
/hides
-Ssra
/hides
-Ssra
ROTHJ
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 03:03 PM CST
<<Don't forget it's not appropriate for the player of Drongol to not be in some sort of argument/debate about Dark vs. Light Paladins.>>
Seeing as how Drongol's Player is not a Paladin and, therefore, is not in any way bound by the CODE, this statement has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the so-called debate.
With that in mind, let's also bear in mind that it's not appropriate for a GM to pipe up with smart aleck remarks as they come to mind, but we still love Ssra anyways. :P
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
Seeing as how Drongol's Player is not a Paladin and, therefore, is not in any way bound by the CODE, this statement has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the so-called debate.
With that in mind, let's also bear in mind that it's not appropriate for a GM to pipe up with smart aleck remarks as they come to mind, but we still love Ssra anyways. :P
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
DR-SSRA
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 03:09 PM CST
<<Seeing as how Drongol's Player is not a Paladin and, therefore, is not in any way bound by the CODE, this statement has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the so-called debate.>>
I KNEW that was coming. Player of Drongol .. blah .. blah .. ZzZz
I was going to say Kansas football sucks but... eh Aggies got blasted this year. So, I turn to basketball and see Kansas is beating Aggies this very second ..
I guess you win this round.
;)
To stay on topic ...
I've heard a lot about "Why there should be Dark Paladins" but I haven't heard a lot about the drawback[s] to being a Dark Paladin. Certainly, you should assume if you choose to go "against the grain" there should/will be some drawbacks to that path. This is not an indication or notion that we're entertaining the idea of Dark Paladins [there's just too much to do to get the guild where it needs to be as a whole] but I'm interested in what you have to say on the matter.
Keep it civil or I'll shut this thread down quick like. [smile]
-Ssra
I KNEW that was coming. Player of Drongol .. blah .. blah .. ZzZz
I was going to say Kansas football sucks but... eh Aggies got blasted this year. So, I turn to basketball and see Kansas is beating Aggies this very second ..
I guess you win this round.
;)
To stay on topic ...
I've heard a lot about "Why there should be Dark Paladins" but I haven't heard a lot about the drawback[s] to being a Dark Paladin. Certainly, you should assume if you choose to go "against the grain" there should/will be some drawbacks to that path. This is not an indication or notion that we're entertaining the idea of Dark Paladins [there's just too much to do to get the guild where it needs to be as a whole] but I'm interested in what you have to say on the matter.
Keep it civil or I'll shut this thread down quick like. [smile]
-Ssra
ROTHJ
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 03:11 PM CST
<<I KNEW that was coming.>>
And yet you walked right into it. Really, what does that say about you?
<<I was going to say Kansas football sucks but... eh Aggies got blasted this year.>>
How'd the Aggies do in their bowl game this year?
<<So, I turn to basketball and see Kansas is beating Aggies this very second ..>>
Rock Chalk, man. Rock Chalk.
Drongol's Player, brother to two Aggies.
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
And yet you walked right into it. Really, what does that say about you?
<<I was going to say Kansas football sucks but... eh Aggies got blasted this year.>>
How'd the Aggies do in their bowl game this year?
<<So, I turn to basketball and see Kansas is beating Aggies this very second ..>>
Rock Chalk, man. Rock Chalk.
Drongol's Player, brother to two Aggies.
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
RELAYER99
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 05:19 PM CST
I gave a speach at a mentors meeting a while back and wanted to offer my perspective of the Code and how it relates to Paladin life and the gods they follow. Just my take on it.
I?d like to present the Code in an order that I hope will show how each aspect relates to the others and the virtues embodied within them.
A Paladin is a Protector.
He will seek to prevent harm to the innocent and will place himself at risk in order to accomplish this if need be.
Paladins are also protectors in other ways as well.
Paladin?s help protect fallen citizens with the use of glyphs such as the Glyph of Warding and the Glyph of Bonding to protect their possessions.
Paladins also endure sacrifices in order to help protect others.
The spell Alamhif?s Gift sacrifices a Paladin?s favor in order to protect the fallen from walking the Starry Road.
The Lead ability also sacrifices part of our soul strength in order to give inspiration to the people we lead into battle.
Which leads us into our next topic.
A Paladin is a Leader in righteous combat.
When it is necessary to fight, the Paladin will seek to guide and inspire his comrades, taking a forward position in the battle and facing the foe boldly. A Paladin does not hide from his foe or sneak about.
Our souls guide us in how we properly conduct ourselves in combat.
Paladins do not strike the first blow, advance while hidden or commit murder by unlawful killing or else tarnish our souls.
Paladins fight righteously in defense of ourselves, those who cannot defend themselves or in defense of our cities against invaders.
To know when it is appropriate to fight or not we must define what is righteous.
Righteousness is characterized by commonly accepted standards of morality or justice.
In Elanthia we have commonly accepted standards of behavior such as Loyalty, Honesty, Honor and Lawfulness.
A Paladin is Loyal.
He does not betray his god, his liege-lord, his guild, his family, or his friends.
A Paladin is Honest.
He will not lie or otherwise seek to deceive a person. A Paladin does not cheat or seek to take unfair advantage in his dealings with others.
Honor is not disposed to cheat or fraud and is characterized by integrity in upholding standards of morality and law.
So our morality and righteousness is set in conforming to standards and laws commonly accepted throughout Elanthia.
A Paladin is Just and works to promote and enforce Justice and the Law.
If a Paladin does not agree with a law, he must still respect it and should work to change it rather than disregarding it. The only exception to this is if the Paladin believes the law to be truly Evil. In this instance, the Paladin must follow the dictates of his conscience.
At present I am unable to find a current law that could be considered `evil?.
Stealing, murder and other laws throughout our land are to be observed at all times by Paladins.
Presently Paladins can only work towards promoting lawfulness.
I look forward to the day that Paladins will be able to actually enforce the laws like our code states.
For now we can only do what any other guild can do in enforcing law by accusing criminals of crimes to ourselves.
A Paladin supports and defends Good and opposes Evil.
Good is defined by moral excellence, truth, honesty, righteousness, loyalty and honor.
When we use the term `good? we refer to mortal standards of what is accepted as being moral.
When we use the term `holy? we refer to living in accordance to a strict highly moral religious or spiritual system.
A Paladin is Holy.
He seeks to do that which pleases his god in all manners of the Code, and knows that the purity of his soul has a profound impact on the abilities the gods bless him with.
We keep in good standing with the gods by not committing acts that would cause harm to our soul or spirit health.
We avoid acts such as breaking laws, murder, striking first, advancing while hidden, stealing, including grave robbing.
Paladins offer prayer and worship to the gods in order to be granted the use of spells and abilities.
Being holy is embodied in all aspects of our Code, but to fully understand what being holy is we need to understand also what evil is.
Evil is morally bad or wrong. Causing ruin, injury or pain.
Evil is characterized by anger, spite, or being malicious, infamous, harmful and wicked.
Being wicked is contrary to moral or divine law.
So we can surmise that to be Holy we must observe common standards of behavior, laws pertaining to principalities, Paladin Code and Divine Laws, from which we are blessed with our abilities.
While it is not required that a Paladin worships Chadatru or Rutilor above other gods, he ignores the wishes of the God of Justice at his peril. Serving another god or gods is possible for a Paladin provided that the path that he follows does not work against Good or Justice. It is not appropriate for a Paladin to work toward the ends of a dark aspect since the goals of such are not in keeping with what is Good and Just.
Let?s focus on the line ?It is not appropriate for a Paladin to work toward the ends of a dark aspect.?
As we know of the Thirteen, each has light and dark aspects or sub gods associated with them.
After reviewing these negative aspect gods, they all display characteristics contrary to moral and divine laws and our Code.
Characteristics such as cruelty, dishonesty, murder, extortion, destruction, dishonor, despoiling, anger, ruin, disloyalty, thievery, deceit, corruption, and sadistic.
After we meditate on the virtues contained in our Code we as paladins should find it apparent what gods are worthy of reverence and worship.
Gods that display attributes such as Honesty, Loyalty, Justice, Honor, Righteousness, Kindness, Generosity and overall Goodwill.
Our paths as Paladins are defined in our words and deeds in association with adhering to moral standards, laws and holy worship.
Holy Guardian Relayer Eloy of M'Riss
http://darkanvil.bravepages.com/Index.html
You can fight
Without ever winning
But never ever win
Without a fight
I?d like to present the Code in an order that I hope will show how each aspect relates to the others and the virtues embodied within them.
A Paladin is a Protector.
He will seek to prevent harm to the innocent and will place himself at risk in order to accomplish this if need be.
Paladins are also protectors in other ways as well.
Paladin?s help protect fallen citizens with the use of glyphs such as the Glyph of Warding and the Glyph of Bonding to protect their possessions.
Paladins also endure sacrifices in order to help protect others.
The spell Alamhif?s Gift sacrifices a Paladin?s favor in order to protect the fallen from walking the Starry Road.
The Lead ability also sacrifices part of our soul strength in order to give inspiration to the people we lead into battle.
Which leads us into our next topic.
A Paladin is a Leader in righteous combat.
When it is necessary to fight, the Paladin will seek to guide and inspire his comrades, taking a forward position in the battle and facing the foe boldly. A Paladin does not hide from his foe or sneak about.
Our souls guide us in how we properly conduct ourselves in combat.
Paladins do not strike the first blow, advance while hidden or commit murder by unlawful killing or else tarnish our souls.
Paladins fight righteously in defense of ourselves, those who cannot defend themselves or in defense of our cities against invaders.
To know when it is appropriate to fight or not we must define what is righteous.
Righteousness is characterized by commonly accepted standards of morality or justice.
In Elanthia we have commonly accepted standards of behavior such as Loyalty, Honesty, Honor and Lawfulness.
A Paladin is Loyal.
He does not betray his god, his liege-lord, his guild, his family, or his friends.
A Paladin is Honest.
He will not lie or otherwise seek to deceive a person. A Paladin does not cheat or seek to take unfair advantage in his dealings with others.
Honor is not disposed to cheat or fraud and is characterized by integrity in upholding standards of morality and law.
So our morality and righteousness is set in conforming to standards and laws commonly accepted throughout Elanthia.
A Paladin is Just and works to promote and enforce Justice and the Law.
If a Paladin does not agree with a law, he must still respect it and should work to change it rather than disregarding it. The only exception to this is if the Paladin believes the law to be truly Evil. In this instance, the Paladin must follow the dictates of his conscience.
At present I am unable to find a current law that could be considered `evil?.
Stealing, murder and other laws throughout our land are to be observed at all times by Paladins.
Presently Paladins can only work towards promoting lawfulness.
I look forward to the day that Paladins will be able to actually enforce the laws like our code states.
For now we can only do what any other guild can do in enforcing law by accusing criminals of crimes to ourselves.
A Paladin supports and defends Good and opposes Evil.
Good is defined by moral excellence, truth, honesty, righteousness, loyalty and honor.
When we use the term `good? we refer to mortal standards of what is accepted as being moral.
When we use the term `holy? we refer to living in accordance to a strict highly moral religious or spiritual system.
A Paladin is Holy.
He seeks to do that which pleases his god in all manners of the Code, and knows that the purity of his soul has a profound impact on the abilities the gods bless him with.
We keep in good standing with the gods by not committing acts that would cause harm to our soul or spirit health.
We avoid acts such as breaking laws, murder, striking first, advancing while hidden, stealing, including grave robbing.
Paladins offer prayer and worship to the gods in order to be granted the use of spells and abilities.
Being holy is embodied in all aspects of our Code, but to fully understand what being holy is we need to understand also what evil is.
Evil is morally bad or wrong. Causing ruin, injury or pain.
Evil is characterized by anger, spite, or being malicious, infamous, harmful and wicked.
Being wicked is contrary to moral or divine law.
So we can surmise that to be Holy we must observe common standards of behavior, laws pertaining to principalities, Paladin Code and Divine Laws, from which we are blessed with our abilities.
While it is not required that a Paladin worships Chadatru or Rutilor above other gods, he ignores the wishes of the God of Justice at his peril. Serving another god or gods is possible for a Paladin provided that the path that he follows does not work against Good or Justice. It is not appropriate for a Paladin to work toward the ends of a dark aspect since the goals of such are not in keeping with what is Good and Just.
Let?s focus on the line ?It is not appropriate for a Paladin to work toward the ends of a dark aspect.?
As we know of the Thirteen, each has light and dark aspects or sub gods associated with them.
After reviewing these negative aspect gods, they all display characteristics contrary to moral and divine laws and our Code.
Characteristics such as cruelty, dishonesty, murder, extortion, destruction, dishonor, despoiling, anger, ruin, disloyalty, thievery, deceit, corruption, and sadistic.
After we meditate on the virtues contained in our Code we as paladins should find it apparent what gods are worthy of reverence and worship.
Gods that display attributes such as Honesty, Loyalty, Justice, Honor, Righteousness, Kindness, Generosity and overall Goodwill.
Our paths as Paladins are defined in our words and deeds in association with adhering to moral standards, laws and holy worship.
Holy Guardian Relayer Eloy of M'Riss
http://darkanvil.bravepages.com/Index.html
You can fight
Without ever winning
But never ever win
Without a fight
ROTHB1
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 06:34 PM CST
An equally good question is not only what drawbacks would such a group have, but what bonuses aswell? Perhaps warding and such would cost more soul, but soulhits would be less? shifting the norm to the left or right could be a basic to such a group as "dark"paladins
PTAH
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 10:25 PM CST
<<So aye there tis some choice, as long as ye art not serving a god working against Justice or what tis Good.>>
Agreed. However, the debate moves over to where the definitions of Justice, Honor, and Good begin and end. Aspasia contends that worshiping and diety that advocates evil or darkness in any form is itself a dishonorable and "non-good" act.
<<Of course it could be stated that every religion has its own set of moral values or beliefs and therefore would not be in conflict with their own set of values.>>
The point is, that some moral values may be better than others. And indeed, some moral values may not be appropriate for a paladin. I think the CODE is the big authority on this issue in regards to our characters jobs as paladins.
Also the question that asks "where do the standards of the guild we join stand against our own personal and relgious values? Which is more important to our PC?" Is a vitally imporant issue to consider as well.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
PTAH
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 10:30 PM CST
<<Now your getting it. But it's not a unique idea. It is the norm. The fact is the only thing that keeps this from being the case today are mechanics.>>
I disagree. I think it's this way, because the guild was intended to be that way from it's inception. I think your idea, of how the guild works, while interesting, is not what was intended, when it was designed. Either from an IC or OOC perspective.
But I do respect your opinion on this.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
I disagree. I think it's this way, because the guild was intended to be that way from it's inception. I think your idea, of how the guild works, while interesting, is not what was intended, when it was designed. Either from an IC or OOC perspective.
But I do respect your opinion on this.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
PTAH
Re: Comments
01/17/2004 10:32 PM CST
<<After we meditate on the virtues contained in our Code we as paladins should find it apparent what gods are worthy of reverence and worship.>>
BINGO.
Great post Relayer.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
BINGO.
Great post Relayer.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
LENNONJON
Re: Comments
01/18/2004 12:06 AM CST
<<After we meditate on the virtues contained in our Code we as paladins should find it apparent what gods are worthy of reverence and worship.>>
Correct, and to me this means worshiping all of the gods, as each of them will offer a unique perspective on any given situation.
--Just a "clueless" Squire
Correct, and to me this means worshiping all of the gods, as each of them will offer a unique perspective on any given situation.
--Just a "clueless" Squire
RELAYER99
Re: Comments
01/18/2004 07:02 AM CST
>Correct, and to me this means worshiping all of the gods, as each of them will offer a unique perspective on any given situation.
All of the Thirteen? I would say that's feasable. As far as their dark apspect gods, no
As we know of the Thirteen, each has light and dark aspects or sub gods associated with them.
After reviewing these negative aspect gods, they all display characteristics contrary to moral and divine laws and our Code.
Characteristics such as cruelty, dishonesty, murder, extortion, destruction, dishonor, despoiling, anger, ruin, disloyalty, thievery, deceit, corruption, and sadistic.
After we meditate on the virtues contained in our Code we as paladins should find it apparent what gods are worthy of reverence and worship.
Holy Guardian Relayer Eloy of M'Riss
http://darkanvil.bravepages.com/Index.html
You can fight
Without ever winning
But never ever win
Without a fight
All of the Thirteen? I would say that's feasable. As far as their dark apspect gods, no
As we know of the Thirteen, each has light and dark aspects or sub gods associated with them.
After reviewing these negative aspect gods, they all display characteristics contrary to moral and divine laws and our Code.
Characteristics such as cruelty, dishonesty, murder, extortion, destruction, dishonor, despoiling, anger, ruin, disloyalty, thievery, deceit, corruption, and sadistic.
After we meditate on the virtues contained in our Code we as paladins should find it apparent what gods are worthy of reverence and worship.
Holy Guardian Relayer Eloy of M'Riss
http://darkanvil.bravepages.com/Index.html
You can fight
Without ever winning
But never ever win
Without a fight
