For the people who play a "dark" paladin for the pure RP enjoyment, kudos. It's a near impossible thing to do and strips you of all magic and ability to circle.

For those trying to split hairs and worships a dark aspect or wear a self made "dark" title, but still keep your soulstate, still use magic, and still remain in good standing with the guild so you can circle, you arent dark, you arent evil, you arent being a rebel.. you are bringing shame to the idea of RP and acting like spoiled child "I want my cake and eat it too!"

The council has laid down the code, the code will be expanded, the path of the guild is being laid out. Your options are: a) get on board the love train and follow the guild into the future b) continue to complain that dark paladins should be allowed, the whole time keeping your soul pristine, circling in the guild, tithing-badging-tending, basically following the code but whining the whole time c) follow yer little RP heart out and stand against the code but pay the price


This whole dark v light paladin thing has been beaten on so much it isnt even a horse anymore, hell, it isnt even glue.. it's a Sizzler steak.


to conclude:

much love to those playing a dark paladin and sticking to it even when it costs so much

much pity to those paying lip service to the idea of being a dark paladin but still using all the abilities of the guild


much fear of Maece. why? cause she's just scarey


____________________________________________
It wont heal if you dont stop picking at it.

>>For the people who play a "dark" paladin for the pure RP enjoyment, kudos. It's a near impossible thing to do and strips you of all magic and ability to circle.

>>For those trying to split hairs and worships a dark aspect or wear a self made "dark" title, but still keep your soulstate, still use magic, and still remain in good standing with the guild so you can circle, you arent dark, you arent evil, you arent being a rebel.. you are bringing shame to the idea of RP and acting like spoiled child "I want my cake and eat it too!"

You're thinking Fallen Paladin.

Fallen != Dark.

Need a babelfish for DragonRealms?

http://www.bakshiloa.com/libraryindex.html

<<if you're trying to RP a salmon to the guilds tuna, then yer dark to me>>

And this is why certain shiny-types really shouldn't get involved in these sorts of conversations.

[comic geek mode]

To many people, a "Dark Paladin" is to Batman what a Paladin is to Captain America. Both are the epitome of human perfection, both are fighting for the "right side," but their methods differ. Cap typically follows all the rules of being a superhero and fights "in the open." Batman, on the other hand, uses nasty little tricks and, put simply, doesn't fight fair. Sure, he'll beat Superman five times outta six, but that's because he has his little Kryptonite ring. Etc.

Basically, a "Dark Paladin"-type character can be just about anything imagined, but traditionally it amounts to a Paladin that has lost his faith in the concept of mortal "justice" and is more than willing to take matters into his own hands. Witness Rock.

Drongol's Player


PC also stands for "Paying Customer."

<<my only beef with "fallen" paladins are the few who want to RP being fallen but also utilize spells, glyphs, 6th sense and all other bennies of being a good paladin.>>

Can you name any "Fallen Paladins?" I sure can't.

Drongol's Player


PC also stands for "Paying Customer."

<<but here we are, belaboring the idea of being a fallen paladin when no one even seems to try to be one anymore>>

And here I thought we were talking about Dark Paladins before you ran into the problem of misdefining them.

Drongol's Player


PC also stands for "Paying Customer."

<<in my eyes, they are the same>>

Honestly, this is your opinion. It is neither fact nor has it ever been supported by the game. Fallen Paladins do exist--there is a particular shady-type that is called one (sorry for not getting into too much detail here--honestly, I don't know what's a secret and what's not anymore).

Therefore, it can be inferred that a Fallen Paladin has been removed permanently from the Guild's good graces, whereas a Dark Paladin might have some problems with Guild management, but is still considered a "Paladin."

Think about HoJ, that spell we used to have. Is it very "honorable" or "noble" to crush the hands of a pickpocket when you are standing right outside the Guardhouse? Nope. Heck, one could say that it's not very "honorable" at any time, seeing as how you can run, accuse, get the soul boost, and be a pristine, happy-go-lucky shiny-type.

That said, the one thing I see as an honest drawback to being a Dark Paladin is problems with the management. Darius and suchlike would likely try to refrain from having too much to do with such a character, meaning that places like Shadow Clan (Dark Hand? Whatever. I'm too tired.) would be a good place for one to get promoted. In addition, there would probably be some ability tradeoffs--perhaps a more powerful form of HoJ where the Paladin backhands the pickpocket, breaking a few teeth, stunning them, etc., but not much in the way of "true" justice spells.

Additionally, there would be some problems with the law. After all, a Paladin who goes around killing mass murderers in town is a hero and a criminal at the same time.

Drongol's Player


PC also stands for "Paying Customer."

Dark Paladin = Commander Fenhalut at Corik's Wall.

Fallen Paladin != Dark Paladin.

Fallen Paladins forsake the gods.

Paladin is to Cleric as Fallen Paladin is to Necromancer.

Need a babelfish for DragonRealms?

http://www.bakshiloa.com/libraryindex.html

I wasn't around to see Darius make this attack under a flag of truce, but if he did infact take these actions, which I don't doubt from all I am hearing about it, and if the council truely does wish the Paladin Code to mean something, then I agree, I dont see how they can let him remain a guild leader after such a display of cowardice and dishonor. Attacking under a flag of truce is the same as advancing while hidden to ambush.Although instead of using skill in hiding, he is betraying a flag of truce.

Granyt Fyrforg

For all the gruff, Drongol sure is one smart dwarf.

Two paladins stand before a man openly slandering the gods of the two paladins and their church and even goes so far as to defile the holy ground.

The paladin of Chadatru is going to seek justice and most likely involve the authorities if he or she cannot help the man through parlay see the error of his words and actions. (Any of you followers of Chadatru who try to challenge a thief in combat for stealing should really review the book of the immortals and other such texts about Chadatru and his views on justice because you got the RP all wrong.)

The paladin of Urrem'tier is going to seek justice most likely involving the removal of the mans head which may be displayed as an example to those who would disrespect the immortals, for ignorance is one thing, but disrespect and dishonor is unforgiveable.

Someone asked about the benefits and shortcomings of the dark paladin. These should be obvious.

The dark Paladin is seen in the general public eye as either something evil, or something to be feared since the majority of society sees in black and white. They will never be considered leaders of people, they will never be sought out to lead an army into battle, they will not be invited to social events by kings and lords. The dark paladin leads a solitary and lonely lifestyle. While more intimidating just from a surface standpoint than the rogue, the dark paladin while more accepted walking out into the street in broad daylight, it would be extremely rare for that to be the case and when one is seen they would be shunned and feared. (I don't know about you but I don't think i'd approach or throw anything at a heavily armored warrior in blacks or reds or other such colors that inspire fear, especially if I knew the person was a dark paladin.) No dark paladin commanders or leutinents, etc. No mention in the public records for having rescued the people from the evil mage. No ticker tape parades. The dark paladin should be stripped of all spells that deal with leading groups or enspelling groups with magic that benefits them because they are solitary creatures.

The benefits of such a station are that typically the dark paladin should be more skilled than his brethren of the light being that aside from training there are very few things that will take up his or her time unlike his or her brethren whom must participate in jousting events, invitations to court, arbitrations, quests, etc. So the dark paladins reqs should be higher. The dark paladin should have spells that benefit them as a solitary warrior and be stripped of spells that benefit groups. Toe to toe the dark paladin should be the stronger advesary over the paladin of light because in solo combat the dark paladin excels. The strength of the paladin of light is in their ability to inspire people to fight along side them and use spells and abilities which boost the strength of their numbers. The dark paladin should be extremely good at fighting multiple opponents at once as the dark paladin knows that in order to balance out the strength of numbers that they must excel in skills which allow them to take on numerous combatants at once. The dark paladin is not bound by mortal laws but by the edicts of their faith and the virutes placed upon them. So while the dark paladin may not dishonor themselves or their profession, they hold no qualms about seeking personal justice even if it results in death. Because the dark paladin is more open minded to both sides of the coin in life meaning that they understand the light and the darkness, life and death they are fearless in battle and fight each fight as if they have nothing to lose. This open mindedness also gives them great perspective in their dealings with others. (i.e. while they have no issue removing the hand of someone that stole from them they are much more likely to take the time to find out the background of the thief before rendering justice. i.e. the thief may be impoverished and can no longer provide for a family and therfore instead of removing the thiefs hand they send him home with coins to feed his family.) Faith and personal honor are everything to the dark paladin because that is the one permanent thing in his or her existence, the thing that can never be touched or taken from him or her.

Just a few of many thoughts.



Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier

You can define a paladin any way that's most convient. But the CODE is the only defintion that matters.

Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)

"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."

Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.

Correction. It was officially sanctioned by a council of mortals. The origins of the CODE is still an issue of debate.


Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)

"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."

Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.

<But that is the guild paladins chose to join, and the code those paladins agreed to by utilizing the guilds benefits.>

Yes, but the guild is just a tool to teach, its not by any means necessary.

Vidumavi exclaims, "Wait!"
Vidumavi points at you.
Vidumavi exclaims, "Your that Blasword guy!"
>nod vid
You nod to Vidumavi.
Vidumavi exclaims, "You are the bomb!"

<<Yes, but the guild is just a tool to teach, its not by any means necessary. >>

You cannot and dare I say do not KNOW this to be a fact.

If the guild isn't necessary, then there should be more people trained in "the way of lanival" than a handful of historical figures.

I would go so far as to say that the guild HAS to be necessary, because if it weren't, there'd be no point in joining it. If someone could be a Paladin (gaining all the paladinly abilities) AND still be in another guild, there'd be no reason to join the proper paladin guild. 2 sets of spells and abilities is better than one. Think of all the GOOD paladins could do if they weren't restricted by guild.



Dandon

"If they ever come up with a swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, Then Jumping Off Something" ~ Jack Handy

Tried to post on this earlier, but kept getting an error message. Perhaps the board monitors put something in so I could no longer reply to Aspasia =P

<<Saying that respecting a diety, that advocates such evil things as murder, torture, and theft, isn't a dishonorable or evil act, is just semantical hair-splitting, as Laythor correctly pointed out. Respecting, worshiping, and emulating a god that advocates murder, torture, theft and all sorts of other "evil" acts, in truth, is an evil act. There is simply no way around that fact. >>

There is a way around your "fact". First, I don't believe that theft, torture, and murder are by definition "EVIL". I can think of situations where one of the afore mentioned acts would be construed as justice, or be deemed worthwhile by the moral majority. As examples (and yes they are tupid examples, but you can extend them to more realistic ones but I won't for fear of upsetting someone with a real world reference): "Stealing" the tactival plans of the leader of your opponants army; doing unto someone what they have done unto a friend of yours where you know the psychological trauma that the perpatrator has caused will be more harmful than any current physical trauma; and defending yourself to the death in a situation that may have resulted in your own death if you had not killed the opponant first (which even in todays American courts sometimes gets a murder charge). The point is, there are (at least to me) situations where those actions are not necessarily "EVIL".

<<Following the CODE rightly makes it impractical for a paladin to persue honor and regard a Dark Immortal at the same time.>>

You completely sidestepped my example of situational contigencies such as with war. Sometimes people do act in the manners that emulate the behaviors of the dark immortals. Hell, think about the current war going on in Elanthia.

<<As for Darius. Aspasia dosn't follow Darius or any guild leader, she follows the CODE. What crimes Darius may or may not have committed is not
the point. The CODE is still the CODE regardless if certain people choose to follow it or not. >>

Well actually you are incorrect here. What Darius does is very much the point. The guild leaders are there as examples of what a Paladin is. If a guild leader acts in some mannor and is not sanctioned for it, then its safe for the members of the guild to believe that the actions of said guild leader were not in err. Now personally, what Darius did was something beyond reproach. He sould have been made an example of, as was Beren so many years ago. However, he was not. What is the lesson to be learned here? Well we could conclude that it is ok to be deceitful and dishonest if in fact the result of such behaviors have a positive or "good" outcome; or we can believe that guild leaders are above and beyond the current "CODE". Either way Beren was made an example of for allowing Paladins to "learn" stealing even when it wasn't by directly stealing, but only through being taught the skill. Darius on the other hand was not reprimanded for being directly dishonest and deceitful. Seem a bit backarsewards to me.

--Just a "clueless" Squire

<Sometimes people do act in the manners that emulate the behaviors of the dark immortals. >

just to add an example to validify Lennon's point here: Blasword is in charge of the Dusk of Therengia and was told specifically by Therengia's leader to form it. The Dusk of Therengia is for Guerilla Warfare, Spying, Espionage, Assassination, Dirty Work, etc.


Vidumavi exclaims, "Wait!"
Vidumavi points at you.
Vidumavi exclaims, "Your that Blasword guy!"
>nod vid
You nod to Vidumavi.
Vidumavi exclaims, "You are the bomb!"

haha dirty work and espionage...Blasword? lol sorry Blasword but no matter what level you become. You'll always be the same ol Blasword...and dirty work and espionage is not something I see up your alley.


Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier

<<Well actually you are incorrect here. What Darius does is very much the point. The guild leaders are there as examples of what a Paladin is. If a guild leader acts in some mannor and is not sanctioned for it, then its safe for the members of the guild to believe that the actions of said guild leader were not in err. Now personally, what Darius did was something beyond reproach. He sould have been made an example of, as was Beren so many years ago. However, he was not. What is the lesson to be learned here? Well we could conclude that it is ok to be deceitful and dishonest if in fact the result of such behaviors have a positive or "good" outcome; or we can believe that guild leaders are above and beyond the current "CODE". Either way Beren was made an example of for allowing Paladins to "learn" stealing even when it wasn't by directly stealing, but only through being taught the skill. Darius on the other hand was not reprimanded for being directly dishonest and deceitful. Seem a bit backarsewards to me.>>

Or you could look at the actions Darius took and see that even out Guildleaders will sometimes fail to set the perfect example. Perfection is impossible but chasing it is always important. The same way Darius made a mistake back then, other Paladins have listened to teachings in stealing and have killed people without a challenge. Their soul had a hit but they could be forgiven by them Gods after praying to their badges, tithing or tending someone in need.

This Darius thing really boils down to what YOU want to believe. If you dislike him you can use that fact to put him down anytime he comes in discussion. But that itself shows that you're not ready to be a true Paladin. The Paladin is kind and forgives so Darius is ahead of you by forgiving your mistakes when you make them and allowing you to continue in the Paladin path, thus why he's the Guildleader and you're a mere follower. Now if you like Darius you may as well forgive him for his action and remember some good things about him.

Phanton

>Very interesting statement. As a player, I was one of those that disliked Darius so I would have used his actions against him. Now, it's a whole different perspective. Now, I don't dislike him ;)

Maece,

Is there a readily available history book somewhere? I was not around for the insertion of Darius, although I've heard a few different accounts. I would really like to read up, IG of course, on how our guildleaders came to be. The Dark Hand books describe (incredible read it is) how the area evolved, and was very helpful during the jobs. They really made thearea come alive, for me at least.

I understand that not all IG texts are absolute fact, and that it the writers point of view .. if perhaps there was a credible author who had kept notes on Paladin Guild events, I'd surely like to see it.

-Slaris, first post of the week, and I was nice.

<<<
This Darius thing really boils down to what YOU want to believe. If you dislike him you can use that fact to put him down anytime he comes in discussion. But that itself shows that you're not ready to be a true Paladin. The Paladin is kind and forgives so Darius is ahead of you by forgiving your mistakes when you make them and allowing you to continue in the Paladin path, thus why he's the Guildleader and you're a mere follower. Now if you like Darius you may as well forgive him for his action and remember some good things about him.


Why would I wish to go through the act forgiving someone who has not repented? And now Ralel is escaped, a time may come where we wish to engage in talks again. If that comes I am not holding my breath that a Zoluren delegation is going to come back from it alive. You reap what you sow and violation of a flag of truce involving safe passage and discussion in parlay is the vilest form of sowing the field of diplomacy.

As to all the other stuff about immortals and what not..... Well, I still don't see in the charter where we are protectors of any immortal. On the contrary we are the protectorete of the people even to the point of opposing certain immortals and their actions.

As the guild leader speech states..... The one abiding purpose of a Paladin be to live as an example to others of courage, virtue, and leadership.

Nothing real ambiguous about that.

I suppose this could all change as new writings come forward etc. Such is the evolution of a game world with different folks on the controls and wanting to make their own mark upon the world in a unique way. In ways it is sad to see how the horrible imbalance mechanics of combat and hiding pushes folks to clamor for guild change that allows us to use the same tactics etc etc.

Daython

<<
Do you think he really needs to repent in public? The fact that he's still a Guildleader should show you that he repented somewhere that was enough for the Paladin council to leave him at his position. >>

Yes, because his actions effect how future peace delegations of the Paladin guild and Zoluren will be treated. By publicly punishing him for his actions you send a message to any foe or friend that what he did is not standard operation for the Paladin Guild or for Zoluren. His actions are not his own personal demons to deal with, they effect all within the guild and the province. The blood of many are upon his hands and that is not a private guild council issue.

My personal protest along with many others is to no longer seek circle within the Crossings guild. Perhaps with war looming it would be a good time to revisit the whole thing.

On an OOC level, it was never allowed to be played out in the realms. We can't force someone to animate the body of Darius and face his accusers. He is not really a part of the gaming world in a meaningful way that allows us to interact for him or have him face playable consequences for his actions with the characters in the lands. If it was a character that has to live in the game I can guarantee you they would have faced many a Paladin to account for those actions.

Daython