<<but I want to see some really nice abilities that work WITHIN the context of the Code>>

Absolutely, me too!

~Maece

The Pizzeria will be closed during the lifeboat drill.

There are no plans to move forward with penalties only. As I had stated in a previous message a few weeks back, soul gain/loss is part of my next list of projects. I will be going back to the ideas presented and see which ones are doable.

While I?m of the school that you should take your licks for being bad, obviously this isn?t always feasible due to mechanics. We already have some punishments set in place. I do agree that we need more, but right now I?m exploring unique ways to support code teachings in a positive light without taking hits for not doing it/following it. Yes yes, I know this is vague. I also hope to look back over mechanics that we have in place now and see where things can be tweaked or fixed a bit. Don?t expect anything earth-shattering or changes overnight (sing it with me now) ?cause I don?t code.? ;-)

But really guys, we're moving forward with something that many people have been requesting for years. We're a few years too late, I admit it, but we're here now with endless possibilities. The support of the code will be an continual work-in-progress that can only grow with your help.

~Maece

The Pizzeria will be closed during the lifeboat drill.

<< By judging past history the GM community seems quite reluctuant to allow PC's to have any form of judgemental powers. Be it individual or by a group of selected individuals.

In Gemstone 2 (1988-1990) the four Guilds each had a player Guildmaster (with nice perks), and slots for a player assistant, and at times even a 'council'; the Fighter's Guild council was 4 players. I was on the council for a time, the assistant Guildmaster for a shorter time, and 'acting Guildmaster without perks' for a few weeks.

While we were beyond fortunate in most of the players chosen to lead the Guilds, there were constant problems of timing and availability; great events came and one or more Guildmasters had been stuck late at work, or it snowed and they were hours getting home, or.... I know my own term as (acting) Guildmaster ended due to the now all too common explosion of unexpected work and travel.

There may have been internal issues as well; while as players we only knew that turnover happened, we were not always informed why. Perhaps Simu had to deal with problems back then that soured them on the idea of players holding positions of power or influence.

<< My preference... a PC council for review. The council should consist of 13 with a required number of 7 to meet on decisions on a monthly basis. That way the time period someone is without an ability would be reduced considerably.

I still like the idea of such a council, both as a reviewing entity like you describe, and as a potential policy generating (or at least recommending) source, though I understand Simu's displayed reluctance to have any single player points of power. The ability to work once a quorum is reached would at least increase the likelihood that the council could meet effectively from time to time. Picking the members would be fraught with peril for the pickers though ;)

Glenlivet

Yup, I see the point Glenlivet... a council of 13 with 5 required to consider it a meeting. The point is by having more members but less required to consider it a meeting it should accomadate some of those wonky RL issues that mess the events in DR.

Daython

My question would be what kind of power are you looking at this council to have? The right to give soul hits? The right to ban from the guild? As you know, these would simply never fly for obvious reasons.

Or would this purely provide RP enhancement where the council would be asking for participating paladins to come before the council to explain their actions?

~Maece

The Pizzeria will be closed during the lifeboat drill.

Pretty much what Cyllwdd just wrote.

The council would have a protocol for deciding on whether a punishment of some sort should be administered based on actions in the realms that somehow are considered questionable, mostly those actions that makes a CE want to trash a Paladin's soul. In essence it would be discussion on deciding if the ability ( if we had some kind of ability that mattered with the code ) would be restored to the paladin. As in the "power of three" suggestion, or escorting chaps out of the guild or similiar abilities that are a direct reflection of the more mundane aspects of being in the guild. Of course, a sanction would provide a soul hit, no different than the soul hit you get for being tossed in the pokey. If it is strictly voluntary, then I really don't see the point. We already have an example with the challenge system of just how badly voluntary systems work.

In essence, the council rules on the return of an ability that was taken away from a paladin for questionable use. The potential could exist to expanding the council to rule on conduct unbecoming a paladin, such as gwething treasonist statements, defaming the guild etc etc. But, initially the ruling should be kept to those things that can be fairly clear cut and documented properly with a minimal amount of GM intervention.

Daython

I have to say I think this paladin council idea has merrit. I believe it would be totally doable. I think this is a fantastic idea and I would be totally into helping put it together. I am in no way wanting to be part of the council or brownosing but an idea like this need to be put together and presented to the P team so they can look at it and say ok we can do this but you can't do this. So if anyone is wanting to get together to discuss this let me know. AIM is Chasitee22.

Paladin Chasitee

>>The council says "there will be no dark paladins". Player Sue says "up yours, it's my dime I'll play however I want raspb".

And the local government says their is no Thieves' Guild. That makes it true?

While I find it downright stupid to argue with a council, trying to prove to them that you're 'dark', I also find it silly that people are taking an obviously biased group that is speaking IC and not OOC as a fact we the players should believe on an OOC level.

Need a babelfish for DragonRealms?

http://www.bakshiloa.com/libraryindex.html

>All those elected and appointed must take an oath to justice and the guild code, and swear to honor the sacred traditions of the guild.

Was great til that crap. Holy limitations, batman. But still a good idea.

I hope it works out, honestly, even if only to participate in the IC conflicts it will certainly drive. Theres nothing better than having people publically vote themselves into a death.

All I'll say is over my dead body we'll have more mortals making silly laws.


Vidumavi exclaims, "Wait!"
Vidumavi points at you.
Vidumavi exclaims, "Your that Blasword guy!"
>nod vid
You nod to Vidumavi.
Vidumavi exclaims, "You are the bomb!"

<Heh, you mean like be honorable, courteous and fight against darkness?>

I'm not getting into a conflict with you.

I won't comment on your comments, but i will expound on my post: I just see too many flaws in having mortals determine these things when the gods are the only RIGHT source. I would see a council like that as in the long run actually doing an injustice to its own cause

Vidumavi exclaims, "Wait!"
Vidumavi points at you.
Vidumavi exclaims, "Your that Blasword guy!"
>nod vid
You nod to Vidumavi.
Vidumavi exclaims, "You are the bomb!"

<<I won't comment on your comments, but i will expound on my post: I just see too many flaws in having mortals determine these things when the gods are the only RIGHT source. I would see a council like that as in the long run actually doing an injustice to its own cause.>>

Which gods are the "RIGHT" gods to follow? Elders, traditions, and our Codes, should serve as a good guide for making the appropriate value judgements. Which, I suspect, is what you're actually grumbling about.

Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)

"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."

Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.

Just answering some of your challenges/questions.


<<This, obviously enough, is a moral issue for each Paladin to resolve individually. Unfortunately, the CODE raises as many questions as it answers, and one of those questions is "to whom does my highest loyalty belong?">>

Yes, your personal loyalties can only be determined by you, personally. That is not the point though. Our personal morallities can only be determined by ourselves, personally, because they happen to be, well, personal. But our personal determinations are not neccesarily the right ones, the best ones, or the most honorable ones. Agreed, that the CODE does not address which loyalty you may personally feel is the highest. Of course the CODE was not meant to address personal feelings in the first place. It is the rule and standard of being a paladin, irregardless of how you or I personally feel about it.

<<If one's highest loyalty is to the Immortals, then one can potentially commit actions which are damaging to the image of the Guild. If one is utterly loyal to the Guild, a corrupt or impostor Guildleader could set the Paladin on a quest against the Immortals. If one is completely loyal to one's sovereign, one could be set against both Guild and Gods. It's a rather difficult question to respond to, as the CODE assumes that Guild, God, Lord, Friends, and everyone else will all be upright, moral people.>>

Very good point. It creates a difficult choice of paths to choose from. But, as you stated above, at some point you must decide where you loyalties lie. The CODE is not a religious document, it's a list of rules and standards that defines a paladin. The guild is not a relgious order or sect, we are not clerics, our loyalty, as proper paladins, lies to the guild, it's traditions and it's code.

The CODE comes from the gods, light and dark, it is the manner in which we paladins honor ALL the gods. The gods themselves have different views on morallity and justice, if we follow the varrying and vastly conflictory teachings of each individual god, then we could have no unity in purpose or ideals.

We follow the CODE because we arn't the gods, we cannot invent our own standards and rules. The CODE is the official blueprint for obeying and serving the purpose of ALL 13, not the specific interests of single individual immortals. If you don't like the CODE or standards, or even our traditions, then how do you determine your worth as a paladin? By the standards, and CODES, you invent for yourself?

<<There is a problem with this statement as well. Put simply, where the heck did the Paladin Council come from, and why is it that they feel the need to make their presence felt only now? Basically, we have a group of people who have changed from their first appearance to their second (we had two new members and two "retired" members) and simply give blanket statements without any sort of explanation. If we accept that they have authority, then they do have authority. However, I am curious as to where the Paladin Council was during Darius' more flagrant excesses, or when the Paladins and Warrior Mages joined together in an attempt to exterminate the Thieves' Guild, or any other occasion where their guidance would have been extremely helpful.>>


I think the Council, if implemented, will be a new creation, called from the Paladin masses, from amoungst ourselves, and headed and overseen by the Guild Leaders. A referendum I think is in the cards for this. I feel the majority of paladins would be interested in a guild Council. Besides that I doubt they should have omnipotent power, and most decisions and rulings should be closely regulated by the Guild Leaders aka GMs.


Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)

"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."

Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.

One possible use of a paladin council would be to mitigate punishments.

For instance, pally sees somebody attacking the weak.. he is too late to guard.. not able halt or whatever.. so he attacks.. the council could deam that as follownig the spirit of the code and make a recommandation for a positive change to his soulstate. Or in the case.. where Blasword (?) mentioned being in a Rathan elevator with a known bad guy.. He could kill the baddie in rightous combat, then petition the council to review the matter and they could get his soulstate degradation reduced.

With the way many of us play our paladins, we fight against evil and evil actions even though the game mechanics are unable to determine it in some cases. A human council would then be able to judge our actions and determine if what we did was in the spirit of the code.

With our soulstate mechanics already in place, I doubt the council will need to punish people as much as reward people for doing actions that some of the soulstate mechanics punish.

Presently with some paladins (and it is not their fault), when an evil act is performed.. their answer is "inactivity" due to either insecurity or wariness over consent policy or not willing to risk a soul hit (very understandable). With this council, a paladin may loose that pause and attempt to combat an evil action he sees knowing that there is a chance, a council may deem his actions to within the spirit and thus repair, reduce or remove a soul hit.

Monacus
Sword hand raised with the greatest reluctance but truest blade, may the 13 have mercy on the noble Paladin!

>>However, in fairness the possibility, is not only plausible, it's rational and likely. I doubt the CODE was something merely invented by conspiring guild leaders in dark smokey rooms, in an effort to repress the Dark Paladin movement.

Says you.

Need a babelfish for DragonRealms?

http://www.bakshiloa.com/libraryindex.html

<<With the way many of us play our paladins, we fight against evil and evil actions even though the game mechanics are unable to determine it in some cases. A human council would then be able to judge our actions and determine if what we did was in the spirit of the code.>>

No. To begin with, such decisions would take so much time that the Paladin in question would likely hav recovered his or her soul state before the "ruling clique" could gather and make their decision. Additionally, I get the sneaking suspicion that, given that PCs would be able to help out/harm other PCs, there would be quite a bit of favoritism going on.

Furthermore, if the Council decided that you don't deserve help, would it be consent? It's an obviously roleplayable response if your so-called superiors say "to heck with you."

Drongol's Player


PC also stands for "Paying Customer."

Interesting to see this idea still making the rounds. We discussed this years ago with about the same results if I remember correctly. I can tell you that I do not agree one bit with a council made up of mortals having the power to 'adjust' our souls. That power belongs soley with the gods. I always viewed soul 'hits' as a warning or even punishment from the gods for stepping off the desired course.

The idea of a Paladin Council is interesting as it would surely fuel the RP fires and be the cause of many interesting events, both good and bad to be sure. Mortals are not infallible and thus they will make mistakes and or show poor judgement at times. That just adds to the richness of the RP environment in my opinion.

I am saddened to hear that our numbers fell so far, are there really only 40ish 'active' Paladins? I know we were never the guild of choice but, it seems that we did have a fair amount of members in years past. Heck, I remember several weekly Paladin meetings that had 20-30 people in attendance. At least there will be one more returning shortly...

Crusader Maliktoo....betcha you thought I forgot about that title....

First I'd like to offer an observation. All the so called Dark or "Greyish" types, with the exception of Slaris, seem to be opposed uniformally. Whereas most of the "Light" types seem to be uniformally for or at least unconcerned with the idea of a player-run, council. It just seems to be an interesting diacotomy.

As for the "dark smokey room" conspiracy, which I sorta breathed life too, hitherfor known as the DSR Conspirarcy. I just would like to add, that I meant it as the most rediculous form of exagerated immagery.

Where some of you may see a so-called "Conspiracy" I simply see a re-affirmation of the facts that have existed all along. The same facts I've been trying to argue with many of you for many years now. What many of you are failing to see, with the exception of RothJ, is that the CODE has changed ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, the standards of being a paladin have allways been this way, just not written so blantantly. THE CODE IS NOT A NEW INVENTION IT IS ONLY A REAFIRMATION.

I personally feel the newly penned CODE was merely meant to smack those too thick to grasp the basic truths of the calling, upside their head.

Just some thoughts.

Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)

"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."

Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.

From an IC perspective I have no problem with a Paladin council. From an OOC perspective I do. I have enough issues with RL politics, we doon't need to bring that sort of stress into the game as well.

-- Just a "clueless" Squire

<First I'd like to offer an observation. All the so called Dark or "Greyish" types, with the exception of Slaris, seem to be opposed uniformally.

I just gotta be me, I guess.

I've always been a fan of events and situations where GMNPCs are not the main protagonist. This council idea allows all sides a fair chance, with many different outcomes, even the darker - what some would call non-paladin - opportunities.

A corrupt member on the council?
Bribery?
Threats?

At least I would think I'm not going to have to wait around for mister 90+ barb to show up and make things right again.