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Please make sure you participate in this discussion in the right topic and category: "Surviving in DragonRealms - Elanthia, The Justice System".
So Zeyurn ran the survey for me and there's no mistaking it: There are a lot of Safe Rooms in DR.
Way too many, in fact.
The weird part is that in many cases, their placement doesn't make a lot of sense. Why is someone protected from being shot here...::takes a step to the west::...and not here?
As an additional puzzler, not all no-steal rooms are safe (although most safe rooms are no-steal). It makes little sense that you can steal from someone and then the victim can't do anything about it.
At any rate, I do understand and accept that some rooms really SHOULD be safe, but I'd like to see what you forum monke...er...posters...think about it. Feel free to spread the word that I want input on this one, but tell me:
What rooms do you think need to be safe?
Please don't give me room names, be a little more generic. Don't say, for example, "the good mana room in Snow Goblins" or" Muy'rak Pat'shhyr'mehath, Root Warren". Instead, tell me "Depart locations" or "Guard houses" or "court rooms". Stuff like that.
If you don't think ANY rooms need to be safe, then you're welcome to say that, but say it, say why you believe it, and then sit back and try to let the discussion continue without jumping back in and saying, "No, I already said no rooms! You are wrong!".
I don't want this thread to end up in a bickering battle between players over which side is right and which side is wrong. You can state your piece and I'll be happy to read it, but once we get your input, at least for now, I want to see what other folks have to say. You CAN comment on someone's thoughts, just keep it constructive and let's not argue.
Again, I do think there are a few places that need to stay safe, but we'll talk more about that in a bit (Zeyurn will also comment here in a second, too).
Solomon
Fight me:
http://la-bubbita.mybrute.com
SIMU-SOLOMON
ASHBAUGHJ2
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:17 PM CST
I'll be as clear as I can be with what I think. I think that the only rooms that ought to be "safe" are ones where someone could be disruptive easily to the game as a whole is easily do-able.
Depart locations, auto-puffs, banks and maybe debt offices, guardhouses.
And to be honest, I'd love to see more stringent justice in some of those places than even outright safe rooms. Like bank guards who will really do a number on you before turning you over to the local guards and so on.
The flip side of this is, I think any "safe" room should have all exp gaining / mech abusey type actions prevented. Sort of like a quieted room deal for meetings, but focused on preventing people from turning on avoids and just sitting there with the certainty of immunity for any actions or words they speak. Consequences and RP along those lines ought to be palpable in my view.
The Moose
"My advice? Run to a safe room, then re-roll. It's guaranteed awesome."
Depart locations, auto-puffs, banks and maybe debt offices, guardhouses.
And to be honest, I'd love to see more stringent justice in some of those places than even outright safe rooms. Like bank guards who will really do a number on you before turning you over to the local guards and so on.
The flip side of this is, I think any "safe" room should have all exp gaining / mech abusey type actions prevented. Sort of like a quieted room deal for meetings, but focused on preventing people from turning on avoids and just sitting there with the certainty of immunity for any actions or words they speak. Consequences and RP along those lines ought to be palpable in my view.
The Moose
"My advice? Run to a safe room, then re-roll. It's guaranteed awesome."
JULIAN
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:17 PM CST
I am against safe rooms, in general, because I think they encourage people to behave in ways they wouldn't if they were vulnerable. This may be gwething offensive things, talking trash by familiar or in person, "hiding out" until someone's figurative back is turned so they can be ambushed, etc. I think it would be healthier for the game if anyone who wants to be 100% safe from interference has to log out to achieve that.
I feel only 2 classes of room should be safe:
1) Depart spots, to prevent camping.
2) lockable rooms, because they are effectively safe anyway.
And some restrictions should apply to those rooms, so that the incentive to stay in a safe room is limited. The two that seem most important are:
1) No exp gain is possible.
2) No gwething or scrying out is possible.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
I feel only 2 classes of room should be safe:
1) Depart spots, to prevent camping.
2) lockable rooms, because they are effectively safe anyway.
And some restrictions should apply to those rooms, so that the incentive to stay in a safe room is limited. The two that seem most important are:
1) No exp gain is possible.
2) No gwething or scrying out is possible.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
CAR3LTHOS
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:17 PM CST
tangents are below the main post
designated triage locations;
-deader departs, and wakes up at such and such place, they should be safe.
-some main healing room in towns(A)(post guards), most helpful in haven/crossings
-banks
-trader shipment rooms(B)
-guild-leaders rooms(C)
-godly shrines in the wilderness(D)
(A) to keep people from stealing/killing someone who's there for healing, and to protect the healers, iirc healing someone durring a consent/conflict gives the other person consent, since you're directly helping their opponent, and it'd suck for the healer to be doing their job and suddenly be attacked by someone they weren't expecting.
(B) TraderJoe goes in to pickup/drop off a shipment, and a sneaky person steals from them; makes sense IC also as their ought to be guards
(C) might make the guildleader simply drop the agressor in one hit also, so while you MIGHT get away with killing someone, you're now also dead, AND your guildleader will likely hear about it and be rather unhappy with you, reguardless of guild(barb might laugh about killing a MU, but still punish you somehow due to irritating powerful people)
(D) shrine to a god...um, god might just happen to pay some attention to the area and keep things from getting too ugly there(positive/neutral aspects) and get annoyed that someone else might be taking the attention from the god at the 'evil' altars
designated triage locations;
-deader departs, and wakes up at such and such place, they should be safe.
-some main healing room in towns(A)(post guards), most helpful in haven/crossings
-banks
-trader shipment rooms(B)
-guild-leaders rooms(C)
-godly shrines in the wilderness(D)
(A) to keep people from stealing/killing someone who's there for healing, and to protect the healers, iirc healing someone durring a consent/conflict gives the other person consent, since you're directly helping their opponent, and it'd suck for the healer to be doing their job and suddenly be attacked by someone they weren't expecting.
(B) TraderJoe goes in to pickup/drop off a shipment, and a sneaky person steals from them; makes sense IC also as their ought to be guards
(C) might make the guildleader simply drop the agressor in one hit also, so while you MIGHT get away with killing someone, you're now also dead, AND your guildleader will likely hear about it and be rather unhappy with you, reguardless of guild(barb might laugh about killing a MU, but still punish you somehow due to irritating powerful people)
(D) shrine to a god...um, god might just happen to pay some attention to the area and keep things from getting too ugly there(positive/neutral aspects) and get annoyed that someone else might be taking the attention from the god at the 'evil' altars
KALIRA
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:22 PM CST
I think Empath guilds all rooms should be safe rooms because a guild that is committed to healing and doesn't use violence should have some type of way of keeping violence out of their home. A calming ward that doesn't allow violence or a version of guardians spirits to throw out anyone and have high perception like the market tent guards to help hinder stealing.
GARAED
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:28 PM CST
I think the following can be justified as safe:
-Depart locations (to prevent camping)
-Empath Guild (they prohibit violence)
-Guild Leader room (limited access in a lot of guilds)
That's Pretty much my list. There exists plenty of mana laden areas outside hunting grounds as well as means to reach anyone who falls (gates, etc) that we shouldn't have to have them away from town.
I am not sure learning or gweths should be turned off in them but people should definitely be in some way discouraged from diving for them when they are trying to stir up trouble and bite off more than they can chew -coughVanmarcough-.
-Depart locations (to prevent camping)
-Empath Guild (they prohibit violence)
-Guild Leader room (limited access in a lot of guilds)
That's Pretty much my list. There exists plenty of mana laden areas outside hunting grounds as well as means to reach anyone who falls (gates, etc) that we shouldn't have to have them away from town.
I am not sure learning or gweths should be turned off in them but people should definitely be in some way discouraged from diving for them when they are trying to stir up trouble and bite off more than they can chew -coughVanmarcough-.
GUTTERBUNNY
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:32 PM CST
I feel there are only two sitations where a room should be completely "safe" from violence.
1. Depart locations (to prevent gravecamping).
2. Anywhere where it is reasonable that there would be a strong military or legal presence, ie: Town Halls, Banks, Guard Houses, etc. Even if you can't see an NPC Guard, it's reasonable to assume that they are there.
Even in these cases, I would much prefer an auto-arrest or removal to the "You can't do that here" business.
What I would strongly prefer to the current situation is a way to make some rooms safe that use existing mechanics to which PCs also have access. For example, have the auto-path NB you for violence in her cottage, or have holy sites use consecrated ground mechanics. The caveat to this is that they should be subject to the usual skillchecks. A character of high enough skill might resist Srela's attempt to Nissa them, for example.
What I'd like to see eliminated completely is the "There is no need for violence here" blanket statements. Make it make sense for a room to be safe using mechanics that are also available to PCs.
"Ridicule may lawfully be employed where reason has no hope of success."
1. Depart locations (to prevent gravecamping).
2. Anywhere where it is reasonable that there would be a strong military or legal presence, ie: Town Halls, Banks, Guard Houses, etc. Even if you can't see an NPC Guard, it's reasonable to assume that they are there.
Even in these cases, I would much prefer an auto-arrest or removal to the "You can't do that here" business.
What I would strongly prefer to the current situation is a way to make some rooms safe that use existing mechanics to which PCs also have access. For example, have the auto-path NB you for violence in her cottage, or have holy sites use consecrated ground mechanics. The caveat to this is that they should be subject to the usual skillchecks. A character of high enough skill might resist Srela's attempt to Nissa them, for example.
What I'd like to see eliminated completely is the "There is no need for violence here" blanket statements. Make it make sense for a room to be safe using mechanics that are also available to PCs.
"Ridicule may lawfully be employed where reason has no hope of success."
WOODHAMR3
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:32 PM CST
I think places that make sense in an IC sense and also places that discourage stuff like corpse camping shoudl be allowed to remain as safe rooms.
Guard houses make perfect sense. The inside of guildhalls, also (but not outside). I don't think popular hangouts like outside of the warmage guild or the town green or something should be safe, or the outside of banks (inside of course).
Also, places you depart to should be safe.
I don't think there needs to be any stealing safe rooms at all. It's too easy to protect your money, and theft really isn't an issue anymore. If anything, we need more theft than we have now. It would be really cool, if we Really needs theft safe rooms, like outside a bank or inside a bazaar, to have some kind of skill modifier rather than an outright "you can't do this". Something thieves can percieve, like a mark room or something.
-Mr. Glemm
Guard houses make perfect sense. The inside of guildhalls, also (but not outside). I don't think popular hangouts like outside of the warmage guild or the town green or something should be safe, or the outside of banks (inside of course).
Also, places you depart to should be safe.
I don't think there needs to be any stealing safe rooms at all. It's too easy to protect your money, and theft really isn't an issue anymore. If anything, we need more theft than we have now. It would be really cool, if we Really needs theft safe rooms, like outside a bank or inside a bazaar, to have some kind of skill modifier rather than an outright "you can't do this". Something thieves can percieve, like a mark room or something.
-Mr. Glemm
TINCAN
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:34 PM CST
I'm not sure if this is feasible, but is it possible to distinguish between creature combat and player combat? I don't see a need to have any particular room "safe" from PvP conflict, but it is nice to have a room in or near high trafficed hunting areas where people can be healed and raised without having to worry about a random creature walking in.
MACCABEE1
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:38 PM CST
Rooms that I feel should be "safe" --
Rooms such as the paladin guild room that have a guard or sentry standing in it.
Rooms such as the Crossing bank and the Riverhaven bank <notice i didn't say ALL banks> that describe having a guard in it.
Rooms such as the guardhouse that have an armored guard sitting in it should be safe.
Rooms which are now "safe" that i don't think should be - the inside of jails. Although I do feel they should stay nonmagical. Don't want the MMs beaming out of jail.
Shrines of the "light" gods should be safe. They are at present only non-steal, not safe. Shrines to Damaris should not be non-steal. Shrines to Trothfang should allow murder. Shrines to Idon... well, I won't go there...But they should reflect the IC viewpoint of that particular diety.
places that should under no circumstances be safe, or non-steal.
Thieves guild. Necromancers guild. Barbarian guild.
The paladins guild should remain non-steal.
It should be up to various commanders repsonsiblity to keep the various royalty safe however. As we saw in the case of vorclaf vs siolarn, & raenilar vs the ferdhal; royalty can and do murder each other.
Basically, my feeling is that overall, rooms should reflect the IC intent of those who "run" the facility-i.e. the paladins are anti-stealing so their guildhall shouldn't allow stealing, the thieves have no such restrictions. The same goes for "safe" rooms vis-a-vis the gods, various guildhalls, state buildings.
Additionally, there should be a few places where people can gather right outside of critter areas that don't necessarily have to be safe from PVP, but they should not allow critters to walk in. The place by the gate near DPs in forfedhar. The adan'f "safespot". Outside of the lost villiage in reiver/raiders.
"If Elanthia can survive putting a dragon inside of its molten core, I think it can survive a few black-robed magicians sitting on Gibbet Hill"-<parshift>
Rooms such as the paladin guild room that have a guard or sentry standing in it.
Rooms such as the Crossing bank and the Riverhaven bank <notice i didn't say ALL banks> that describe having a guard in it.
Rooms such as the guardhouse that have an armored guard sitting in it should be safe.
Rooms which are now "safe" that i don't think should be - the inside of jails. Although I do feel they should stay nonmagical. Don't want the MMs beaming out of jail.
Shrines of the "light" gods should be safe. They are at present only non-steal, not safe. Shrines to Damaris should not be non-steal. Shrines to Trothfang should allow murder. Shrines to Idon... well, I won't go there...But they should reflect the IC viewpoint of that particular diety.
places that should under no circumstances be safe, or non-steal.
Thieves guild. Necromancers guild. Barbarian guild.
The paladins guild should remain non-steal.
It should be up to various commanders repsonsiblity to keep the various royalty safe however. As we saw in the case of vorclaf vs siolarn, & raenilar vs the ferdhal; royalty can and do murder each other.
Basically, my feeling is that overall, rooms should reflect the IC intent of those who "run" the facility-i.e. the paladins are anti-stealing so their guildhall shouldn't allow stealing, the thieves have no such restrictions. The same goes for "safe" rooms vis-a-vis the gods, various guildhalls, state buildings.
Additionally, there should be a few places where people can gather right outside of critter areas that don't necessarily have to be safe from PVP, but they should not allow critters to walk in. The place by the gate near DPs in forfedhar. The adan'f "safespot". Outside of the lost villiage in reiver/raiders.
"If Elanthia can survive putting a dragon inside of its molten core, I think it can survive a few black-robed magicians sitting on Gibbet Hill"-<parshift>
LORZELOPHIA
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:38 PM CST
I'd prefer not to have any safe rooms anywhere. Instead, I'd like to see a mechanic put in place for depart spots, which make them safe for a few minutes in much the same way that a cleric self-raise does. The room would then revert to its normal settings after a few minutes. This would prevent people from camping out there, but would also allow the recently-dead some measure of safety.
As far as the Empath guild goes:
Empaths already have a way to remove people from their guildhalls if they wish to. The Empath guild also does not "prohibit violence." Please don't pigeonhole the entire Empath guild this way.
I hate the way that people camp out in the Empath guild to avoid consequences and I would very much like to see the no-violence aspects of it removed. I am sick and tired of people fleeing there to avoid consequences and the bickering and taunting that tends to result from that behavior.
>>-Empath Guild (they prohibit violence)
Basically, the above is baseless and false and indicates that the poster is totally unfamiliar with Empath lore.
-- Player of Szrael --
(12:09:15 AM) catman: every time i find someone that has calm as their default speech emote, my first reaction is to try and make them angry
As far as the Empath guild goes:
Empaths already have a way to remove people from their guildhalls if they wish to. The Empath guild also does not "prohibit violence." Please don't pigeonhole the entire Empath guild this way.
I hate the way that people camp out in the Empath guild to avoid consequences and I would very much like to see the no-violence aspects of it removed. I am sick and tired of people fleeing there to avoid consequences and the bickering and taunting that tends to result from that behavior.
>>-Empath Guild (they prohibit violence)
Basically, the above is baseless and false and indicates that the poster is totally unfamiliar with Empath lore.
-- Player of Szrael --
(12:09:15 AM) catman: every time i find someone that has calm as their default speech emote, my first reaction is to try and make them angry
JAILWATCH
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:38 PM CST
Trading table areas, shops, and banks.
Newbie areas such as the inn's and Jadewater mansion.
As Solomon mentioned, departing areas.
Most guild rooms also need to be combat free but not necessarily steal free.
Looking at the above, these are all basically indoor places.
With the invention of not being able to steal from characters with just a little ferry coin on them, in my opinion there is no reason for any other room to be "safe" be it from stealing or a beating(as long as consent is followed).
We walk out the door and could be hit by a bus.. same thing in Elanthia, we walk out the door and could get hit by the express chain lightning bus. Its all part of the risk and fun of DR.
Newbie areas such as the inn's and Jadewater mansion.
As Solomon mentioned, departing areas.
Most guild rooms also need to be combat free but not necessarily steal free.
Looking at the above, these are all basically indoor places.
With the invention of not being able to steal from characters with just a little ferry coin on them, in my opinion there is no reason for any other room to be "safe" be it from stealing or a beating(as long as consent is followed).
We walk out the door and could be hit by a bus.. same thing in Elanthia, we walk out the door and could get hit by the express chain lightning bus. Its all part of the risk and fun of DR.
GNICKIA
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:43 PM CST
I'd say the only needed safe rooms are rooms which you cannot get back into if you die under normal circumstances (jail cells and such)
Contrary to others I don't think Empath guilds should be safe rooms, nor auto-puffs. Already they are abused by people who look to pick a fight and run to them. Instead maybe implement a feature where hostile actions will get the person warned... if they manage to kill in one shot, they get kicked out and barred from the location for a 30 minutes. This would prevent campining and mass killings, but allow a conflict to come to a resolution rather then someon causing trouble then running to an empath to hide.
The less places people have to hide from conflict the better in my opinion. This keeps people from causing trouble without the players being able to handle things on their own.
I wholely disagree that places should be safe rooms just because they are shrines or holy or anything of that nature. We have necros now... necros don't care if you are sitting at a shrine to Hodierna nor do they care what the gods think if they kill someone there.
For those who wish to argue that auto-puffs should be safe rooms... I'd like to point out to you the recent events with the characters Vanmar and Jhime.... The player has been using Jhime to kill people who upset him while he was on Vanmar, and then when a mob of players who can retaliate gathers... he runs and sits in an auto-puff room with avoids up so that the people he started conflicts with cannot resolve them. If the rooms were not safe rooms, the angry mob could complete the conflict in an IC manner, instead they are left standing around until either they or he has to log.
Contrary to others I don't think Empath guilds should be safe rooms, nor auto-puffs. Already they are abused by people who look to pick a fight and run to them. Instead maybe implement a feature where hostile actions will get the person warned... if they manage to kill in one shot, they get kicked out and barred from the location for a 30 minutes. This would prevent campining and mass killings, but allow a conflict to come to a resolution rather then someon causing trouble then running to an empath to hide.
The less places people have to hide from conflict the better in my opinion. This keeps people from causing trouble without the players being able to handle things on their own.
I wholely disagree that places should be safe rooms just because they are shrines or holy or anything of that nature. We have necros now... necros don't care if you are sitting at a shrine to Hodierna nor do they care what the gods think if they kill someone there.
For those who wish to argue that auto-puffs should be safe rooms... I'd like to point out to you the recent events with the characters Vanmar and Jhime.... The player has been using Jhime to kill people who upset him while he was on Vanmar, and then when a mob of players who can retaliate gathers... he runs and sits in an auto-puff room with avoids up so that the people he started conflicts with cannot resolve them. If the rooms were not safe rooms, the angry mob could complete the conflict in an IC manner, instead they are left standing around until either they or he has to log.
YAUSSER
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:44 PM CST
-Location you arrive at when you depart.
-Bank, Teller (Or just make it a no hide zone)
-Bank, Exchange (Or just make it a no hide zone)
I pretty much assume everywhere else is unsafe (whether it is or not).
TF: Prattle, Bard
Prime: Gaen, Barb
-Bank, Teller (Or just make it a no hide zone)
-Bank, Exchange (Or just make it a no hide zone)
I pretty much assume everywhere else is unsafe (whether it is or not).
TF: Prattle, Bard
Prime: Gaen, Barb
TELGER
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:53 PM CST
I'm against safe rooms in general as well, but if they must remain then the only places I can really see ICly being safe are altars of the light gods (and even then not certain ones like Kuniyo). No steal rooms should really only be restricted to inside fests as well. Other areas like guardhouses could allow violence/stealing but should be followed by an immediate smackdown on the offending party.
This is separate from PC abilities to make a room safe, of course. As long as there are appropriate skillchecks they should remain to be used on an ad hoc basis. IIRC the only one that lasts a really long time is the Cleric Meraud commune, and frankly I'd be fine with the duration of the safe room portion being halved compared to the mana boost portion of the commune (or removed entirely so I can use it while hunting).
Oh and while we're at it get rid of killing someone in a holy room tanking the Cleric's devotion, mmmkay? ^_^
~Thilan
"To be honest, my son, the practice of Holy magic is really just reckless tampering with one's soul."
This is separate from PC abilities to make a room safe, of course. As long as there are appropriate skillchecks they should remain to be used on an ad hoc basis. IIRC the only one that lasts a really long time is the Cleric Meraud commune, and frankly I'd be fine with the duration of the safe room portion being halved compared to the mana boost portion of the commune (or removed entirely so I can use it while hunting).
Oh and while we're at it get rid of killing someone in a holy room tanking the Cleric's devotion, mmmkay? ^_^
~Thilan
"To be honest, my son, the practice of Holy magic is really just reckless tampering with one's soul."
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:54 PM CST
Safe rooms tend to be pretty jarringly OOC ("You can't do that here"? Why not?!?) and easy to abuse, so should be removed ALMOST completely. Having thought it over, the exceptions I could see are:
-Depart locations (camping is bad)
-Banks (get/deposit coins)
-Debt offices (pay fines to get stuff back)
-Guard houses (camping is bad)
For the first, some sort of divine influence could explain the lack of violence. For the other three, one should be subject to an auto-arrest Disturbing the Peace charge, since all of these locations would presumably have guards.
No-steal should go away, with the exception of banks, debt offices, and guard houses, where any stealing attempt should trigger an auto-arrest stealing charge (those guards juggle a lot on their breaks).
For ALL SAFE ROOMS, experience gain should be turned off. Locating and gweths should be blocked, and people should just generally be encouraged to do their business and get the heck out.
An auto-arrest loitering charge would be appropriate for banks, guardhouses and debt offices: borrowing from the most recent ACCUSE NECROMANCY update, if you stay in the safe area for half an hour you get auto-arrested for loitering. This timer doesn't reset until you spend 30 consecutive minutes outside the safe room. A warning before the arrest would be a good thing - a guard telling you to get out before they force you out.
Szrael's idea for depart areas to only be safe for a few minutes after someone departs there is better than perma-safety.
The combination of loitering charges and no experience should encourage people to leave in a timely manner, while the safe mechanics prevent them from being bothered while they do whatever they need to do.
There are several abilities out there to make rooms temporarily safe for triage purposes or for those who absolutely NEED a safe room for whatever reason.
"That's how I knew who you were. You were always like "Blah blah blah I'm a Barbarian oh-my-god." -my gf
-Depart locations (camping is bad)
-Banks (get/deposit coins)
-Debt offices (pay fines to get stuff back)
-Guard houses (camping is bad)
For the first, some sort of divine influence could explain the lack of violence. For the other three, one should be subject to an auto-arrest Disturbing the Peace charge, since all of these locations would presumably have guards.
No-steal should go away, with the exception of banks, debt offices, and guard houses, where any stealing attempt should trigger an auto-arrest stealing charge (those guards juggle a lot on their breaks).
For ALL SAFE ROOMS, experience gain should be turned off. Locating and gweths should be blocked, and people should just generally be encouraged to do their business and get the heck out.
An auto-arrest loitering charge would be appropriate for banks, guardhouses and debt offices: borrowing from the most recent ACCUSE NECROMANCY update, if you stay in the safe area for half an hour you get auto-arrested for loitering. This timer doesn't reset until you spend 30 consecutive minutes outside the safe room. A warning before the arrest would be a good thing - a guard telling you to get out before they force you out.
Szrael's idea for depart areas to only be safe for a few minutes after someone departs there is better than perma-safety.
The combination of loitering charges and no experience should encourage people to leave in a timely manner, while the safe mechanics prevent them from being bothered while they do whatever they need to do.
There are several abilities out there to make rooms temporarily safe for triage purposes or for those who absolutely NEED a safe room for whatever reason.
"That's how I knew who you were. You were always like "Blah blah blah I'm a Barbarian oh-my-god." -my gf
ODIN331
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:55 PM CST
Safe rooms should remain critter-free for all players.
PvP Open characters should have zero or limited protection from other players in safe rooms--except in the case of Banner of Truce--Having some toggle mechanic for gmpcs might be necessary as well.
Safe Rooms should be brought in line so that they're all the same--no steal=no kill, etc.
There should be far fewer safe rooms outdoors. The outside of the warrior mage guild is one particularly annoying example.
PvP Open characters should have zero or limited protection from other players in safe rooms--except in the case of Banner of Truce--Having some toggle mechanic for gmpcs might be necessary as well.
Safe Rooms should be brought in line so that they're all the same--no steal=no kill, etc.
There should be far fewer safe rooms outdoors. The outside of the warrior mage guild is one particularly annoying example.
MITSUBISHI
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:56 PM CST
Steal Safe: Anywhere a guard is posted. Maybe they could even generate some sort of false accusations for people doing any kind of act in hiding? Rubbing on someone, something like that.
PvP Safe: Anywhere a guard is posted because they should try to stop the fight. Possibly depart locations, but I like that idea of a timer making you immune to combat right after departing.
Invasion Safe: Empath Guilds and Auto Healers, Depart spots, most Guild Halls or at least a room in each, banks, and market tents.
Additional Want: All Guilds Can Kick People Out
>bluff silv
You realize you have no idea how to bluff an unintelligent beast like the Leader Silvyrfrost.
PvP Safe: Anywhere a guard is posted because they should try to stop the fight. Possibly depart locations, but I like that idea of a timer making you immune to combat right after departing.
Invasion Safe: Empath Guilds and Auto Healers, Depart spots, most Guild Halls or at least a room in each, banks, and market tents.
Additional Want: All Guilds Can Kick People Out
>bluff silv
You realize you have no idea how to bluff an unintelligent beast like the Leader Silvyrfrost.
MORDIMER00
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:56 PM CST
Agree with Mazrian, just the depart spots should be safe and really like the idea of no exp gain in a safe room whatever you may choose to do with them.
MIKEM1
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:57 PM CST
Minority opinion, but I think any room you can't leave at will should probably be safe. Exiting the scene should always be a defense, and you shouldn't have to log to do it.
You suddenly feel nauseous, as if you'd been doing performance art.
You suddenly feel nauseous, as if you'd been doing performance art.
TISH
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 01:58 PM CST
I think altars you depart to and shrines in hunting areas should be safe (if said shrine is part of a quest). Banks, gem shops, furriers and the like should be no-steal zones. Off the top of my head I can't think of any others. Personally, I'm only aware of maybe four safe rooms.
I do agree safe rooms shouldn't be abused and used for hiding after one has attacked another.
Tish
I do agree safe rooms shouldn't be abused and used for hiding after one has attacked another.
Tish
MACCABEE1
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:06 PM CST
<<gem shops, furriers and the like should be no-steal zones>>
these presently are "limited" steal, which i believe they all should be <i.e. the riverhaven and theren gemshop is "stealable" but the crossing one is not. What i think is that they all should be made the same, and be "limited" like they presently are. <what occurs now is the tanner whacks you over the head if you go after someones pockets more than once or twice.> Obviously if they remain partially stealable, they shouldn't be "safe" if someone catches you, they should get a chance for retribution.
"If Elanthia can survive putting a dragon inside of its molten core, I think it can survive a few black-robed magicians sitting on Gibbet Hill"-<parshift>
these presently are "limited" steal, which i believe they all should be <i.e. the riverhaven and theren gemshop is "stealable" but the crossing one is not. What i think is that they all should be made the same, and be "limited" like they presently are. <what occurs now is the tanner whacks you over the head if you go after someones pockets more than once or twice.> Obviously if they remain partially stealable, they shouldn't be "safe" if someone catches you, they should get a chance for retribution.
"If Elanthia can survive putting a dragon inside of its molten core, I think it can survive a few black-robed magicians sitting on Gibbet Hill"-<parshift>
BBRASH
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:07 PM CST
Safe Rooms
- Depart Locations
- Banks
- Guard Houses
- Festival Merchant Zones
Every other area involving death mechanics (such as the clerics guild or triage locations) can have the commune used by players. Banks and guard houses obviously have lots of security in place so it makes no sense to be able to go on a crime spree there plus getting killed after having all of your armor stripped off by the guards is kind of lame.
- T
- Depart Locations
- Banks
- Guard Houses
- Festival Merchant Zones
Every other area involving death mechanics (such as the clerics guild or triage locations) can have the commune used by players. Banks and guard houses obviously have lots of security in place so it makes no sense to be able to go on a crime spree there plus getting killed after having all of your armor stripped off by the guards is kind of lame.
- T
GABRIELBLACK
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:07 PM CST
1.Depart points. There are enough good points by others, no need for me to add.
2.Court/Guard Houses. Simply put, there are a crapload of agents in the area there for security.
3.Bathrooms. Yeah I said it and I mean it.
As for altars and shirines outside of depart locations. Nah. I personally would like to see a GOD JUSTICE system on those. Do something bad enough and the smiting will come raining down on you.
Alexii points at a Velakan slaver and shouts, "Another one! Don't let it get away!"
2.Court/Guard Houses. Simply put, there are a crapload of agents in the area there for security.
3.Bathrooms. Yeah I said it and I mean it.
As for altars and shirines outside of depart locations. Nah. I personally would like to see a GOD JUSTICE system on those. Do something bad enough and the smiting will come raining down on you.
Alexii points at a Velakan slaver and shouts, "Another one! Don't let it get away!"
LEMAGRAG
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:10 PM CST
To echo some of my fellow posters, I am generally against safe rooms and no-steal rooms (though I'll save comments on that for another thread so as not to derail this one).
-I like Lorz's idea of depart locations being temporarily safe (or maybe allow the person to be no-attack while in the depart room) for X period of time.
-I like GNICKIA's idea that "the only needed safe rooms are rooms which you cannot get back into if you die under normal circumstances (jail cells and such)"
-I feel that certain town services like bank tellers and the like could be safe, but if they are, I'd like to see no gweths/scrying allowed and I'd like to see a mechanic similar to the vault that would kick someone out after a certain period of time. I mean, if I were to loiter for half the day in my bank's lobby, you'd best believe someone would be speaking to me about it and asking me to either do some business or leave the building. And if I didn't, I'll bet the police would come to have a chat with me. Throw that back a couple of centuries and I'd be thrown out on my bum.
As far as auto-empaths or the empath guild or anywhere else being safe, I don't really see a reason for it personally. I think it's more a path for people to abuse when they can't handle a conflict more than anything.
~player of Gulphphunger
-I like Lorz's idea of depart locations being temporarily safe (or maybe allow the person to be no-attack while in the depart room) for X period of time.
-I like GNICKIA's idea that "the only needed safe rooms are rooms which you cannot get back into if you die under normal circumstances (jail cells and such)"
-I feel that certain town services like bank tellers and the like could be safe, but if they are, I'd like to see no gweths/scrying allowed and I'd like to see a mechanic similar to the vault that would kick someone out after a certain period of time. I mean, if I were to loiter for half the day in my bank's lobby, you'd best believe someone would be speaking to me about it and asking me to either do some business or leave the building. And if I didn't, I'll bet the police would come to have a chat with me. Throw that back a couple of centuries and I'd be thrown out on my bum.
As far as auto-empaths or the empath guild or anywhere else being safe, I don't really see a reason for it personally. I think it's more a path for people to abuse when they can't handle a conflict more than anything.
~player of Gulphphunger
MRDAHJR1971
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:11 PM CST
I like the idea of safe rooms, but I think they're incredibly effective and a wise choice to have in and around remote hunting, like snow goblins. Also, unless I'm unaware of, there should be an easy way for one to check a room to see if it is safe without question, like a SAFE verb.
Some things I like a safe room should be:
Mana rooms. Two key mana types should support empaths and clerics, heavily.
It would be great if safe rooms had:
Moongates operated by NPC moon mages of the local guild. I don't mind a long walk between towns/cities, but hunting areas that are so remote they hurt? Like snow goblins. I love hunting them, but to have to walk ALL the way to Aesry to dump coin/gems.. I wish NPC moon mages were set up in such places. Even if you had to pay for the services, I wouldn't mind so long as the cost of gating was in scale with what you expected to make in coin in that area, and even then I wouldn't mind it so much if it cost me nearly all the coin I found during the hunt if training was good. It's not always about the coin. :/
Some things I like a safe room should be:
Mana rooms. Two key mana types should support empaths and clerics, heavily.
It would be great if safe rooms had:
Moongates operated by NPC moon mages of the local guild. I don't mind a long walk between towns/cities, but hunting areas that are so remote they hurt? Like snow goblins. I love hunting them, but to have to walk ALL the way to Aesry to dump coin/gems.. I wish NPC moon mages were set up in such places. Even if you had to pay for the services, I wouldn't mind so long as the cost of gating was in scale with what you expected to make in coin in that area, and even then I wouldn't mind it so much if it cost me nearly all the coin I found during the hunt if training was good. It's not always about the coin. :/
JMF90
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:13 PM CST
In general, I don't like safe rooms and I think they should be removed as much as possible. I like the idea of restrictions such as no exp and no gwething put on safe rooms. I like the idea that depart spots are only temporarily safe, like with MF self-raise.
In general, I'll support safe rooms where mechanics make it necessary. Jail. Certail justice rooms. Libraries. Although I'd rather see the mechanics updated. Inside temples I'll buy too. It would make sense for people to seek refuge there. I don't think that the empath guild is special in some way. I think a lot of conflict naturally starts there and safe rooms just drag it out and encourage bad behavior.
I am against every gem shop and furrier being no-steal. Why should commerce have no risk? If you restrict it to that degree, why even allow PvP theft?
The one area I'd like to see changed the most is the town green in the crossing. That's where I expect brawls to happen. Also, the beggar and veteran love to hang out there, and you can't steal from them. That always drives me crazy.
Finally, I have to say that I'm really happy to see this being discussed in a serious manner.
You lick the dirt and discover that it tastes like dirt.
In general, I'll support safe rooms where mechanics make it necessary. Jail. Certail justice rooms. Libraries. Although I'd rather see the mechanics updated. Inside temples I'll buy too. It would make sense for people to seek refuge there. I don't think that the empath guild is special in some way. I think a lot of conflict naturally starts there and safe rooms just drag it out and encourage bad behavior.
I am against every gem shop and furrier being no-steal. Why should commerce have no risk? If you restrict it to that degree, why even allow PvP theft?
The one area I'd like to see changed the most is the town green in the crossing. That's where I expect brawls to happen. Also, the beggar and veteran love to hang out there, and you can't steal from them. That always drives me crazy.
Finally, I have to say that I'm really happy to see this being discussed in a serious manner.
You lick the dirt and discover that it tastes like dirt.
ANUBIS15
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:14 PM CST
Actual PVP Safe Rooms:
The places you land when you depart, and you shouldn't be able to gain any field exp in these rooms.
Nowhere else.
No-Steal Rooms:
Inside banks, at trader's tables and festival grounds.
Anti-Scry Rooms:
Lockable rooms/private homes.
The places you land when you depart, and you shouldn't be able to gain any field exp in these rooms.
Nowhere else.
No-Steal Rooms:
Inside banks, at trader's tables and festival grounds.
Anti-Scry Rooms:
Lockable rooms/private homes.
GARAED
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:18 PM CST
>>-Empath Guild (they prohibit violence)
That statement was perhaps too condensed and having read your post I delved into Elanthipedia and you were right. I was very unfamiliar with the current lore, having been gone for 10 years and only recently returned.
I'll stand by my statement but modify it to apply to infirmary ares in the guild only. I feel violence would be swiftly and strongly dealt with by NPC management should someone start violence in a place of healing.
That statement was perhaps too condensed and having read your post I delved into Elanthipedia and you were right. I was very unfamiliar with the current lore, having been gone for 10 years and only recently returned.
I'll stand by my statement but modify it to apply to infirmary ares in the guild only. I feel violence would be swiftly and strongly dealt with by NPC management should someone start violence in a place of healing.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:19 PM CST
- Just Depart Rooms (playability reasons/camping)
I don't think banks or guard houses or guild leader rooms or any of those should be safe. I do think they could possibly be "One strike" zones. More or less you can take a swing at someone before you get tackled\beaten. And make it some IC messaging, none of the stuff we have now.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
I don't think banks or guard houses or guild leader rooms or any of those should be safe. I do think they could possibly be "One strike" zones. More or less you can take a swing at someone before you get tackled\beaten. And make it some IC messaging, none of the stuff we have now.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
JMF90
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:23 PM CST
>I like the idea of safe rooms, but I think they're incredibly effective and a wise choice to have in and around remote hunting, like snow goblins.
There's a difference between a room being free from creature spawn versus being safe. Do you think the room actually needs to be safe?
>Also, unless I'm unaware of, there should be an easy way for one to check a room to see if it is safe without question, like a SAFE verb.
Agreed. I'd like a lot of the room settings to be visible somehow. Safe, justice, forageable, etc.
You lick the dirt and discover that it tastes like dirt.
There's a difference between a room being free from creature spawn versus being safe. Do you think the room actually needs to be safe?
>Also, unless I'm unaware of, there should be an easy way for one to check a room to see if it is safe without question, like a SAFE verb.
Agreed. I'd like a lot of the room settings to be visible somehow. Safe, justice, forageable, etc.
You lick the dirt and discover that it tastes like dirt.
LORZELOPHIA
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:24 PM CST
>> feel violence would be swiftly and strongly dealt with by NPC management
What NPC management? Basically, the PC Empaths already have a way to deal with it if they choose to. I see no reason for anything more than that to exist.
-- Player of Szrael --
(12:09:15 AM) catman: every time i find someone that has calm as their default speech emote, my first reaction is to try and make them angry
What NPC management? Basically, the PC Empaths already have a way to deal with it if they choose to. I see no reason for anything more than that to exist.
-- Player of Szrael --
(12:09:15 AM) catman: every time i find someone that has calm as their default speech emote, my first reaction is to try and make them angry
JPS4067
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:26 PM CST
I'm of the opinion that the less safe rooms the better, and they definitely need a no xp/gweth mechanic and/or kick you out of them after a certain amount of time, but doing that ICly would be rough.
I agree the recently departed or released from jail should have a moment to gather their things before catching an arrow to the face.
__
"Crowthers openly claim that anyone can claim the leadership no one has ever risen to contest it. That is to say, no ones ever found the bodies."
I agree the recently departed or released from jail should have a moment to gather their things before catching an arrow to the face.
__
"Crowthers openly claim that anyone can claim the leadership no one has ever risen to contest it. That is to say, no ones ever found the bodies."
MACCABEE1
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:31 PM CST
i don't agree on the "no gweth" thing, i believe one should be able to gweth for help to a triage-type location, assuming such traiage location is "safe".
"If Elanthia can survive putting a dragon inside of its molten core, I think it can survive a few black-robed magicians sitting on Gibbet Hill"-<parshift>
"If Elanthia can survive putting a dragon inside of its molten core, I think it can survive a few black-robed magicians sitting on Gibbet Hill"-<parshift>
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:37 PM CST
<<i don't agree on the "no gweth" thing, i believe one should be able to gweth for help to a triage-type location, assuming such traiage location is "safe".>>
Triage safe rooms should be handled by PC safe room abilities, which would have their own special restrictions (if any at all). Gwething should not be one of them.
Failing that, triage can be moved indoors (pretty sure critters don't do portals like arches and doors very well) and/or protected.
"That's how I knew who you were. You were always like "Blah blah blah I'm a Barbarian oh-my-god." -my gf
Triage safe rooms should be handled by PC safe room abilities, which would have their own special restrictions (if any at all). Gwething should not be one of them.
Failing that, triage can be moved indoors (pretty sure critters don't do portals like arches and doors very well) and/or protected.
"That's how I knew who you were. You were always like "Blah blah blah I'm a Barbarian oh-my-god." -my gf
PBOMBARD
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:41 PM CST
Safe Rooms:
- Depart Destinations
- Shrines/altars where it makes sense.
I think rooms that are no-spawn/no-wander in hunting areas should remain that way without being a safe room unless covered by the above.
For areas like banks, courts, empaths, etc. I'd rather see a more IC, punitive mechanic for people who try to do dumb things like fight or steal (depending on the type of locale).
-pete
- Depart Destinations
- Shrines/altars where it makes sense.
I think rooms that are no-spawn/no-wander in hunting areas should remain that way without being a safe room unless covered by the above.
For areas like banks, courts, empaths, etc. I'd rather see a more IC, punitive mechanic for people who try to do dumb things like fight or steal (depending on the type of locale).
-pete
PRAXIS
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:43 PM CST
I came up with 2 categories.
Safe rooms: I would suggest that these rooms not allow new exp gain, gweths/rings, or scrying in/out and have no percievable mana.
- depart sites
- guildleader offices
PvP discouraged rooms: Free to do the crime, but face additional obstacles/skill checks to doing it and perhaps higher penalties
- inside banks; super guards, super duper guards... maybe the bank manager 'sees' you and doesn't let you withdraw/deposit for a while (rl day or something)
- Market tents; same as now seems appropriate (but I'm not sure if they are no steal, or really difficult steal rooms).
- guardhouses, courtrooms; If you really want to kill someone while surrounded by the cops then good luck with that -- 10x fines, insta-arrest, maybe a chance for a 'bright' guard to stop in the act
- IC rooms;
-- there may be a few appropriate shrines, altars -- if the immortals can kill a necro I suppose a milder warning shot can be centered on a regular adventurer, compliments of said imortal (bleeders, curses, detrimental spell effects)
-- guild rooms; there may be a room or two in any guild where it would seem inapropriate to want to pvp that are not GL offices
- smaller public trans (the 1 or 2 room vehicles); not sure how to balance this, but I think some protections should be made to avoid a 1 room steal/death zone with no possibility for escape. The balance difficulty is that these areas should not be abusable for starting something, or hiding from something you started.
Let Lyras win.
Safe rooms: I would suggest that these rooms not allow new exp gain, gweths/rings, or scrying in/out and have no percievable mana.
- depart sites
- guildleader offices
PvP discouraged rooms: Free to do the crime, but face additional obstacles/skill checks to doing it and perhaps higher penalties
- inside banks; super guards, super duper guards... maybe the bank manager 'sees' you and doesn't let you withdraw/deposit for a while (rl day or something)
- Market tents; same as now seems appropriate (but I'm not sure if they are no steal, or really difficult steal rooms).
- guardhouses, courtrooms; If you really want to kill someone while surrounded by the cops then good luck with that -- 10x fines, insta-arrest, maybe a chance for a 'bright' guard to stop in the act
- IC rooms;
-- there may be a few appropriate shrines, altars -- if the immortals can kill a necro I suppose a milder warning shot can be centered on a regular adventurer, compliments of said imortal (bleeders, curses, detrimental spell effects)
-- guild rooms; there may be a room or two in any guild where it would seem inapropriate to want to pvp that are not GL offices
- smaller public trans (the 1 or 2 room vehicles); not sure how to balance this, but I think some protections should be made to avoid a 1 room steal/death zone with no possibility for escape. The balance difficulty is that these areas should not be abusable for starting something, or hiding from something you started.
Let Lyras win.
DICKENSS
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:46 PM CST
I am wondering what empaths would think of not being able to gain exp when they go to a safe room to heal a deader. Would that make it harder to get an empath to come heal? I think a room near hunting grounds that has good mana for the empath and cleric to be safe would be great. I like the idea that it is safe only to the point of no creatures being able to attack. If safe rooms just meant that creatures did not come in , that would be a good resolution for players not hiding in there to avoid conflict.
JMF90
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 02:55 PM CST
>I am wondering what empaths would think of not being able to gain exp when they go to a safe room to heal a deader. Would that make it harder to get an empath to come heal? I think a room near hunting grounds that has good mana for the empath and cleric to be safe would be great.
But does it need to be safe from creatures, or other players? Because it doesn't need to be a safe room to prevent creatures from spawning or walking in.
You lick the dirt and discover that it tastes like dirt.
But does it need to be safe from creatures, or other players? Because it doesn't need to be a safe room to prevent creatures from spawning or walking in.
You lick the dirt and discover that it tastes like dirt.
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: Safe Rooms and You
01/14/2010 03:08 PM CST
<<I am wondering what empaths would think of not being able to gain exp when they go to a safe room to heal a deader. Would that make it harder to get an empath to come heal?>>
Doubt it. Perc health > actually healing in terms of efficiency.
"That's how I knew who you were. You were always like "Blah blah blah I'm a Barbarian oh-my-god." -my gf
Doubt it. Perc health > actually healing in terms of efficiency.
"That's how I knew who you were. You were always like "Blah blah blah I'm a Barbarian oh-my-god." -my gf
