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>most will not spar if they think they will lose.
I believe the problem with this is that, it's only a small range where it's an enjoyable fight, where both people are hitting consistently and having fun, with the fight being able to end either way.
I'm usually willing to spar anyone within a very broad range of my skills even knowing I'll lose. However, I can understand other people's hesitancy when they are just gonna whiff 30 times in a row, then lose in 3 hits. Much like the current tourney system. He who attacks first, usually wins.
Also, there are other things to tend to add boredom to the fight (such as hiding, we all know the waiting game), but if you ask people not to hide... most guilds tend to disagree because it is a strength for them. A WM or Cleric are usually much more willing to stay unhidden for a spar, than say a thief or ranger would.
I'm hoping the combat re-write will fix some of this and more fights will be a bit more "epic battle" feeling.
-Master Ndin
VAGELO
MORDIMER00
Re: The overall state of a once good thing.
11/06/2009 07:54 AM CST
>>People are afraid to lose, even in a spar.....most will not spar if they think they will lose. Even with a healing empath right there willing to heal. :/
Unless I know my opponent is a real challenge or is going to wipe the floor with me I always start out with a lower weapon.
Yeah people just need to come out of their shell if they're at all interested in PvP. I remember my first few spars when they were a lot more common and being pretty nervous and worried about losing and all that. After a few of those i started getting more comfortable, picking up tips from experienced PvPers and eventually trying out a tournament (my hands actually shook in the first couple).
Eventually i got over it all and now no matter what happens to my character in PvP it doesn't bother me very much. There is sometimes initial rage when someone i'm conflicting with kills me while hunting but it goes away as soon as i realize that it's just a minor setback in the grand scheme of hours spent training in this game.
If people aren't at all interested in PvP then great, enjoy the games other aspects and stay closed. BUT if you go this route then adjust your attitude when talking to people, don't provoke if you're not willing to put up with the consequences.
>>I'm usually willing to spar anyone within a very broad range of my skills even knowing I'll lose. However, I can understand other people's hesitancy when they are just gonna whiff 30 times in a row, then lose in 3 hits. Much like the current tourney system. He who attacks first, usually wins.
I hardly ever turn down a spar, there's nothing better then the feeling of actually beating someone that's much higher level then you.
>>Also, there are other things to tend to add boredom to the fight (such as hiding, we all know the waiting game), but if you ask people not to hide... most guilds tend to disagree because it is a strength for them. A WM or Cleric are usually much more willing to stay unhidden for a spar, than say a thief or ranger would.
It's not really like that anymore. Usually if you're a survival tert fighting a survival prime you're not going to see them hide and they won't wait long before taking their first shot. Most spars i get into now are either epic hour duels with other mages that consist of whiffing on each other with weapons and neither being able to get past the barrier spells or praying that the barb/ranger/thief you're fighting doesn't stun on their first shot so yoou have a chance to cast.
Unless I know my opponent is a real challenge or is going to wipe the floor with me I always start out with a lower weapon.
Yeah people just need to come out of their shell if they're at all interested in PvP. I remember my first few spars when they were a lot more common and being pretty nervous and worried about losing and all that. After a few of those i started getting more comfortable, picking up tips from experienced PvPers and eventually trying out a tournament (my hands actually shook in the first couple).
Eventually i got over it all and now no matter what happens to my character in PvP it doesn't bother me very much. There is sometimes initial rage when someone i'm conflicting with kills me while hunting but it goes away as soon as i realize that it's just a minor setback in the grand scheme of hours spent training in this game.
If people aren't at all interested in PvP then great, enjoy the games other aspects and stay closed. BUT if you go this route then adjust your attitude when talking to people, don't provoke if you're not willing to put up with the consequences.
>>I'm usually willing to spar anyone within a very broad range of my skills even knowing I'll lose. However, I can understand other people's hesitancy when they are just gonna whiff 30 times in a row, then lose in 3 hits. Much like the current tourney system. He who attacks first, usually wins.
I hardly ever turn down a spar, there's nothing better then the feeling of actually beating someone that's much higher level then you.
>>Also, there are other things to tend to add boredom to the fight (such as hiding, we all know the waiting game), but if you ask people not to hide... most guilds tend to disagree because it is a strength for them. A WM or Cleric are usually much more willing to stay unhidden for a spar, than say a thief or ranger would.
It's not really like that anymore. Usually if you're a survival tert fighting a survival prime you're not going to see them hide and they won't wait long before taking their first shot. Most spars i get into now are either epic hour duels with other mages that consist of whiffing on each other with weapons and neither being able to get past the barrier spells or praying that the barb/ranger/thief you're fighting doesn't stun on their first shot so yoou have a chance to cast.
DGUTHRIE2
Re: The overall state of a once good thing.
11/06/2009 08:47 AM CST
My experience at higher levels is any spar or fight lasts less than 20 seconds. Usually it's whoever gets the first shot/spell off.
________________________________________
<<DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG. >>
You flat out, absolutely, 100% have no idea what you're talking about.
Solomon
________________________________________
<<DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG. >>
You flat out, absolutely, 100% have no idea what you're talking about.
Solomon
MACCABEE1
Re: The overall state of a once good thing.
11/06/2009 09:21 AM CST
<<My experience at higher levels is any spar or fight lasts less than 20 seconds. Usually it's whoever gets the first shot/spell off.>>
that's mostly the aspect of spars that i don't enjoy, if its too lopsided. I don't care, win or lose, if its a fairly even match where we both manage to get a few hits in. If i beat them too quick, or if they beat me too quick, its like... battling with the window that says "you are stunned" until "you are dead", and what's the fun of that?
I prefer the long erryl flynn-style sword fight :-)
The undead hordes would like to take this moment to remind you that they are quite happy to eat your brains so that you may test new depart.Please consider it.Hugs and kisses, Team Necro.
MORDIMER00
Re: The overall state of a once good thing.
11/06/2009 09:47 AM CST
It depends really, i've had spars against moon mages that last a good half hour and were highly entertaining. I've had some that lasted a long time but it consisted of me being stunlocked the whole time too but you take the good with the bad. A lot of it is really up to the fighters, if you're both there to have a good time then discuss the rules beforehand, do multiple rooms, do whatever to make it more interesting.
JULIAN
Re: The overall state of a once good thing.
11/06/2009 09:52 AM CST
Right now it's costless and easy to report for PvP and have your claim taken seriously. This results in more reporting than is probably optimal. If you're inclined to report, you might as well do it no matter how minor the actual annoyance to you or how much responsibility you bear for your situation because the costs are all born by the staff (in their time, and dealing with ill will) and the party you reported.
And policy playing solutions displace role playing solutions. Civility, diplomacy, tact, politeness, dialogue, mutual respect and connectedness all develop to some extent to counter the human urge of one human to hit another human with a rock in response to disagreement. That stuff makes for good role playing. And a lot of that is missing from DR because people can easily substitute Policy for human relations.
I think the best way to deal with that distortion is to raise the bar for what qualifies for intervention under policy. A good rule might be:
In any conflict more complicated than 'I have never seen or talked to this person before and they killed me out of the blue without explanation' the presumption is that CvC activity is implicitly or explicitly consensual. The staff will only intervene if:
1) All consent has been demonstrably satisfied.
2) The situation is ongoing.
3) The party reporting has made repeated, explicit, and unambiguous attempts to remove themselves from the situation without success.
This would create a strong incentive to solve most problems in character and PREEMPT potential conflicts by maintaining good human relations, prevent the use of policy as a retaliatory tool, and still discourage genuinely unprovoked attacks.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/huldahspal/flyingcompany.png
And policy playing solutions displace role playing solutions. Civility, diplomacy, tact, politeness, dialogue, mutual respect and connectedness all develop to some extent to counter the human urge of one human to hit another human with a rock in response to disagreement. That stuff makes for good role playing. And a lot of that is missing from DR because people can easily substitute Policy for human relations.
I think the best way to deal with that distortion is to raise the bar for what qualifies for intervention under policy. A good rule might be:
In any conflict more complicated than 'I have never seen or talked to this person before and they killed me out of the blue without explanation' the presumption is that CvC activity is implicitly or explicitly consensual. The staff will only intervene if:
1) All consent has been demonstrably satisfied.
2) The situation is ongoing.
3) The party reporting has made repeated, explicit, and unambiguous attempts to remove themselves from the situation without success.
This would create a strong incentive to solve most problems in character and PREEMPT potential conflicts by maintaining good human relations, prevent the use of policy as a retaliatory tool, and still discourage genuinely unprovoked attacks.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/huldahspal/flyingcompany.png
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: The overall state of a once good thing.
11/06/2009 10:04 AM CST
<<If your rival defames you then you challenge them to a duel>>
I do this, however some situations call for more immediate action.
<<A lot of people just want to win win win win. They'll claim they don't like PvP but then turn around and act like they are Open if they think they outclass the target. This has been my experience more than once.>>
Extra emphasis on this please. My character's spouse was recently in a conflict on Ratha started by an empath and a moonie, both PvP closed; they had no issue tossing out threats and teaming up to fight her, but as soon as my character showed up to avenge her death the moonie reported.
<<I generally go into conflicts expecting to lose>>
This, plus a healthy detachment from your character, help tremendously when dealing with PvP/conflict situations.
Laniea came through some massive doors.
Laniea appears to be aiming at Mesanna with her forester's crossbow.
You praise Laniea's efforts, supporting her with your approval.
I do this, however some situations call for more immediate action.
<<A lot of people just want to win win win win. They'll claim they don't like PvP but then turn around and act like they are Open if they think they outclass the target. This has been my experience more than once.>>
Extra emphasis on this please. My character's spouse was recently in a conflict on Ratha started by an empath and a moonie, both PvP closed; they had no issue tossing out threats and teaming up to fight her, but as soon as my character showed up to avenge her death the moonie reported.
<<I generally go into conflicts expecting to lose>>
This, plus a healthy detachment from your character, help tremendously when dealing with PvP/conflict situations.
Laniea came through some massive doors.
Laniea appears to be aiming at Mesanna with her forester's crossbow.
You praise Laniea's efforts, supporting her with your approval.
GRIM45
Re: The overall state of a once good thing.
11/06/2009 10:07 AM CST
>>Extra emphasis on this please. My character's spouse was recently in a conflict on Ratha started by an empath and a moonie, both PvP closed; they had no issue tossing out threats and teaming up to fight her, but as soon as my character showed up to avenge her death the moonie reported.
I (unfortunatly) spend alot of time on Ratha. I love sand sprites too much to find another. Care to say whom (although I think I know)?
TG, TG, GL, et al.
Also: Moo.
I (unfortunatly) spend alot of time on Ratha. I love sand sprites too much to find another. Care to say whom (although I think I know)?
TG, TG, GL, et al.
Also: Moo.
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: The overall state of a once good thing.
11/06/2009 10:20 AM CST
<<Care to say whom>>
Check out who Lani's aiming at in my sig.
You can read about it in the logs section on SC, the whole conflict is there. Neither the moonie nor the empath were terribly skilled combatwise, but the moonie was at least 60th and had enough magic ranks to stunlock and eventually kill Lani.
Laniea came through some massive doors.
Laniea appears to be aiming at Mesanna with her forester's crossbow.
You praise Laniea's efforts, supporting her with your approval.
Check out who Lani's aiming at in my sig.
You can read about it in the logs section on SC, the whole conflict is there. Neither the moonie nor the empath were terribly skilled combatwise, but the moonie was at least 60th and had enough magic ranks to stunlock and eventually kill Lani.
Laniea came through some massive doors.
Laniea appears to be aiming at Mesanna with her forester's crossbow.
You praise Laniea's efforts, supporting her with your approval.
SUGARSNOUT
Re: The overall state of a once good thing.
11/06/2009 10:43 AM CST
>Mordimer>It depends really, i've had spars against moon mages that last a good half hour and were highly entertaining. I've had some that lasted a long time but it consisted of me being stunlocked the whole time too but you take the good with the bad. A lot of it is really up to the fighters, if you're both there to have a good time then discuss the rules beforehand, do multiple rooms, do whatever to make it more interesting.
Yeah. You and I generally just end up in a stalemate. It's still fun throwing everything including the kitchen sink at each other.
Yeah. You and I generally just end up in a stalemate. It's still fun throwing everything including the kitchen sink at each other.
MARSAIS
Re: The overall state of a once good thing.
11/06/2009 10:44 AM CST
>People are afraid to lose, even in a spar.....most will not spar if they think they will lose. Even with a healing empath right there willing to heal. :/
Unless I know my opponent is a real challenge or is going to wipe the floor with me I always start out with a lower weapon.
>I sparred a person yesterday that I beat, that afterward whispered, Your profile says 60th so I thought it was going to be quick...that must be old?
>Seriously?
>Anyways, they said they weren't spelled up and wanted a rematch so they got spelled up and then beat me so they were happy again.
Just want to clear this up. You misunderstood my questioning a bit. I don't like sparring people I think I can wipe the floor clean with. I like a challenge too. I checked your Profile and saw your circle. Which is why, when you asked if anyone wanted to spar, I said I would but it probably wouldn't be much of a match. So I didn't spell up.
I was pleasantly surprised and a bit shocked at your skills. Which is why I asked about the circle. It was good reminder that circle means nothing and not to underestimate your opponent. Again, like I said in whispers, you have excellent skills and great training. It was two great spars.
Unless I know my opponent is a real challenge or is going to wipe the floor with me I always start out with a lower weapon.
>I sparred a person yesterday that I beat, that afterward whispered, Your profile says 60th so I thought it was going to be quick...that must be old?
>Seriously?
>Anyways, they said they weren't spelled up and wanted a rematch so they got spelled up and then beat me so they were happy again.
Just want to clear this up. You misunderstood my questioning a bit. I don't like sparring people I think I can wipe the floor clean with. I like a challenge too. I checked your Profile and saw your circle. Which is why, when you asked if anyone wanted to spar, I said I would but it probably wouldn't be much of a match. So I didn't spell up.
I was pleasantly surprised and a bit shocked at your skills. Which is why I asked about the circle. It was good reminder that circle means nothing and not to underestimate your opponent. Again, like I said in whispers, you have excellent skills and great training. It was two great spars.
YUOREE
Re: The overall state of a once good thing.
11/06/2009 11:14 AM CST
>It was good reminder that circle means nothing and not to underestimate your opponent.
^^^
^^^
VEE-REX
Re: The overall state of a once good thing.
11/06/2009 12:34 PM CST
It usually takes a lot to get over that initial hump when sparring. I remember when I first started sparring it was: Loss Loss Loss Loss x 10. All I ever did was lose, mostly because I accepted any and all challenges.
I learned a lot of things about actual combat, but the biggest thing I learned was how to lose. I learned to not get upset or sad even if I died in one hit. That has helped me to this day... if I die from any other player whether in a spar or not, it's no big deal to me.
Much like Mord, my hands were shaky and actually clammy (haha) with my first few tournaments. But after time I just got used to it.
The biggest enjoyment I get out of sparring is seeing how I stack up against my opponent. This is why I love sparring against people I've never met since sometimes I don't know how I will do. I still like to spar people I know to see how well they or I have progressed.
Personally I think sparring is a very healthy part of the game.
Vinjince Rexem'lor
I learned a lot of things about actual combat, but the biggest thing I learned was how to lose. I learned to not get upset or sad even if I died in one hit. That has helped me to this day... if I die from any other player whether in a spar or not, it's no big deal to me.
Much like Mord, my hands were shaky and actually clammy (haha) with my first few tournaments. But after time I just got used to it.
The biggest enjoyment I get out of sparring is seeing how I stack up against my opponent. This is why I love sparring against people I've never met since sometimes I don't know how I will do. I still like to spar people I know to see how well they or I have progressed.
Personally I think sparring is a very healthy part of the game.
Vinjince Rexem'lor
MORDIMER00
Re: The overall state of a once good thing.
11/06/2009 12:57 PM CST
>>Yeah. You and I generally just end up in a stalemate. It's still fun throwing everything including the kitchen sink at each other.
Generally it ends up with me being nice and you being a jerk and killing me. You actually wrote a script (.mord) which consisted of getting to melee zerking and killing me. You ran it several times. You're an evil man with no remorse and i want to fight you.
Generally it ends up with me being nice and you being a jerk and killing me. You actually wrote a script (.mord) which consisted of getting to melee zerking and killing me. You ran it several times. You're an evil man with no remorse and i want to fight you.
SUGARSNOUT
Re: The overall state of a once good thing.
11/06/2009 01:15 PM CST
>Generally it ends up with me being nice and you being a jerk and killing me. You actually wrote a script (.mord) which consisted of getting to melee zerking and killing me. You ran it several times. You're an evil man with no remorse and i want to fight you.
I was a noobling hunting island peccs at that point and you were a 50th circler noobling. You sir, need to learn the WM magic tissue of QQ spell (prep mtqq 40). I only used the script because it gave me better bragging rights and because I couldn't type "dance stop/berserk flame/lunge mord" quick enough before you'd retreat and LB my right eye.
And to correct your slanted view, it generally consists of me standing outside the bank annoying passersby, you coming in and randomly cast some disabler on me. Me hiding and ambushing, you missing TM spells, me hiding and ambushing, you casting disablers then missing with TM, me hiding and ambushing, me holding everyone's hand in the room and roaring then missing, etc.
I was a noobling hunting island peccs at that point and you were a 50th circler noobling. You sir, need to learn the WM magic tissue of QQ spell (prep mtqq 40). I only used the script because it gave me better bragging rights and because I couldn't type "dance stop/berserk flame/lunge mord" quick enough before you'd retreat and LB my right eye.
And to correct your slanted view, it generally consists of me standing outside the bank annoying passersby, you coming in and randomly cast some disabler on me. Me hiding and ambushing, you missing TM spells, me hiding and ambushing, you casting disablers then missing with TM, me hiding and ambushing, me holding everyone's hand in the room and roaring then missing, etc.
