Some may agree, others won't. Some won't care either way and continue to pay on these micro transactions being implemented on a large scale.

Maybe I'm just someone that likes how things functioned in the past and would like to see things stay that way....that's what I loved about Gemstone. What I do know is how much frustration and sadness I have hearing about how the last venue in GSIV (Ebon Gate) is taking an ugly turn to the micro transactions to nickel and dime customers.

I figured something distasteful would be coming our way when it was announced that EG tickets were changing to General Tickets and that a new currency would be introduced, but after hearing details of State of Elanthia from simucon feed, my thoughts about the direction this game is heading were confirmed (though I can honestly say it happened faster then I though it would). I can genuinely say I'm disgusted with the direction everything has gone the past few years. This was just the final piece that tipped me over the edge. I've been teetering for a while, but not anymore.

I hear EG will be open to all.
I hear the theme is changing to island/beach and you can earn seashell currency that's strictly EG only.
I know that EG tickets were changed to "general tickets" and the tickets may not even have any use at EG.
I hear EG will having digging, but it'll work like DR and require you to buy shovels/pickaxes via SimuCoins. Games at EG may also fall into this SimuCoin category as well.
I hear EG will have shops, but they won't be accessible unless you buy "a la carte" passes, which most likely means through SimuCoins.

So, gone are the days of being able to spend $40-75 (depending on the event and/or level of ticket) to have access to a week long event of shops/merchants and other special things only found at the event. Now they want everyone to have access to everything, but require you to spend money at the SimuCoin store for slot machine chances at digging, games and getting access to shops.

I thought maybe another year or two would be in store for the game staying away from all events being tied to nickle and diming folks for slot machine chances at stuff, but my estimated timetable was off. The entire game just feels like some sad attempt at cash grabbing now and I feel awful for those that have gambling problems that may sink ungodly amounts of money into the game for what I see as so little in return.

I suppose what I spend on the game is just a small drop in the bucket compared to other people.... The $700+ a year I put into it just isn't worth it anymore for me to support something that I find disgusting with how it's all changed. I have so much more to say about all this and everything else that bothers me, but it took great effort not to say what I already have without being nasty. I'm greatly disappointed and with a heavy heart, I bid this game farewell. I wish to remember this game how I once knew it and for what it was when I fell in love with it.

-Drumpel

I was predicting exactly this when the dollhouse was introduced at the last EG. My concerns were poopooed by at least two names in red and several players, so I haven't said anything when more recent events were announced.

I will say, though, that if what you report is true and I have to make a bunch of micro-transactions rather then just one flat fee to attend EG and have access to everything, I won't be attending this year. A shame too, since I finally got around to getting a carousel last year.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

I'm in a similar boat. I've attended EG for two years running. But if it's a nickel-and-dime microtransaction fest, I'm not that interested anymore.

---

Fyonn's player

So counterpoint: For someone like me that can barely attend more than one or two evenings of EG, spending $40 for a ticket was overboard, so I'd end up spending zero. The model being moved to does allow someone like me to buy the amount of access I'd be able to utilize, which would generate more marginal revenue for Simu. (of course, as has been pointed out in other topics, I'm very much an edge case.)

The question is really the pricing - if buying a similar amount of access to previous years ends up close to $40, then it's really no loss. If it's way more than that, then there's something that needs to be examined.

Rishi
- Player of Kembal

---

Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)]
A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.

>> It really boils down to digging for silvers or digging for simucoins. I'm willing to spend 50 bucks for digging for silvers. I am not willing to pay for digging with simucoins; I'll just buy the shop pass for 10 bucks and be done. Ultimately the numbers will tell but they're definitely getting 10 bucks from me versus the previous 50.

Same here. I've generally stopped attending the other 'pay per dig' events (though I do still use silver to buy things offered at the events so am still indirectly supporting them). If the EG games / digging is going the same route then I'll simply stop participating in that as well.

When we started going down this path the message was that not every event is for everyone, participate in the ones you are interested in. I agree with this 100% but where I once was someone who attended (and enjoyed) nearly 100% of the events year over year I am quickly becoming someone who is interested in very few of the events (and none of the pay events) across the year.

Disappointed that we can't at least leave EG alone if this is indeed the plan for this year.

-- Robert

You gesture at a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
The scream of tortured metal echoes around you as the lightning bolt strikes a colossal glaes-covered meteor.

The numbers support the new pricing structure. People went crazy during the last DR. As long as Simu puts out nice gear, there will be demand for this.

I posted in the eg folder before I knew this was here but I think I could be more to the point here.

I've played this game a long time and until a couple of years ago went to two EG's. One was the free one you guys did and one I paid for.
I started going back in again a couple of years ago for the ethers and rediscovered the merchants which had far more appeal to me because I happen to be one of the people who likes unlocks and lighten and deepen. I have a ton of free time so I can get more services than most and while sitting around waiting for merchants I love to play the games for silvers for a slim chance at something nice ,and some stuff I might even like.

The whole thing to me in it's old form actually FELT like a real festival instead of just a money drop like dr is. It was all fun and games and cheer with a halloweeny feel everyone walked away with a little something they wanted, sometimes a lot. The atmosphere basically had a little something for everyone for what might be less than a night out at the bar. Way more fun than a night at the bar too!

Now of course there was the downside too, even with a paywall the merchants are generally swamped with super long lines. I have managed to get a lot of services each year the last couple but that is because I have the time to spend all day every day of the event in game. For most people that is not an option, we all have times where we sit for an hour or two waiting for that service we really want and don't get picked. Some of us go there and get 20 services or more, some by the end have maybe one or two.
That is with a decent chunk of the population not going period.

Now you are talking about making it free to everyone with a cheap 10 dollar access to shops which means everyone and their grandmother will be in the already long lines where you poor GM's already need the ability to clone yourselves to try and keep up with the more limited numbers you had before. It is hardly a secret Gemstone is understaffed. I can understand the desire to let everyone enjoy the event but it will NOT be the same event for it. We already have a free merchant week for everyone, It is called Frontier days.

Even worse to me you are talking about taking the games and putting them on a pay to play basis. Someone else called them a slot machine and that is a pretty good analogy.
Not just digging, I came away with the strong sense you are going to do this with all the games. This would DRASTICALLY change the atmosphere of the festival.
I assume this is to compensate for what I figure will be a drop in profit from admission fee's and not simply a pure cash grab as some would suggest.
Even then though it is a horrible idea, the kind of things you can buy at eg for tickets are nowhere near Dr quality nor should they be it is afterall, a carnival like atmosphere. Or at least it was.

I for one don't like going to a casino and playing the machines, 20 bucks and i'm done. I don't even find it very fun. Heck you might not even have the carousel this year.
If I want to spend a bunch of real cash to play a game withing a game I'll go to the arena where I know I can at least get something worthy of my money returns.
We do not need two Duskruin event in this game, I strongly believe this is going to come back and bite you in the ass very hard, I dare say it is already starting to.

The last couple of years I really, and I mean really looked forward to eg,I even paid for full account access and bought enough ethers for my entire premium account. Heck I even passed up Steelhead fishing for this.
This year though I have to say I'm not looking forward to at all, PLEASE reconsider what you are doing here, I mean stop for a second and take a real good hard look at it all because this is not likely to end well.

A mudd is not an easy sell in a world filled with hundreds of graphical rpg's. My generation was already cutting back on books and this new generation that is already starting to come of age following mine is an even harder sell on a text based game. You really can't afford to go turning off large chunks of the long established player base, we as a community can't afford it.
Fyrentennimar


Quote: "Jaynah says, "This is more fun than rolton tipping and blood eagle ridin combined.""

Of course we don't know the details on this but here's my two cents on the matter.

1. I don't mind paying for DR (arena) I can figure out how much an item is going to cost me in money and make a choice if I want to do that or not.

2. DM, Duskruin dig. No thank you, not for money if it was a silver drain thing I'd go for it but I cant justify spending who knows how much money to maybe get something thats useful to me.

3. EG was great. I'm hoping the transactions for this will work something like you can buy X Y and Z passes or an all inclusive pass that lets you do everything. But all the games still use silvers vs buying endless "booklets or jars" for real money, for a chance to dig or to play a game. I've dropped a good amount of silvers in EG over the years and never came away with a great prize for the games or digging maybe it's just terrible luck, but if it goes to micro transactions for these things I won't be getting any.

Just stop going to events if they bug you. Enjoy all the benefits that these events are giving the game as a whole.

Wyrom, PM

Have we really fallen so far down the micro transaction hole? Now we've gone from telling people that not all events are for everyone, when micro transactions are a concern, to just don't go to any events? I understand the sentiment of "wait for more details" but this makes me worry that I won't like them shen I hear them.

So let me ask, straight up, can I pay $50 and get thr same level of access to EG this year that I got last year? Keep in mind that included digging and/or games for 8+ hours a day while the event was open. Beyond that are there any plans to continue running at least one yearly event which has a flat access fee to enjoy ALL aspects of the event without any micro transactions present?

I'm trying to trust you here because you've always been great. I hope the details you want us to wait for bear that out. It just sounds like every event is turning into a reskinnrd form of Dudkruin and I despise that pricing model. I justify event purchases on an enjoyment hour per dollar basis compared to buying a new console RPG. EG always met that criteria and DR never had.

Bottom line, if we've gone from some events aren't for me to no events are then maybe the game isn't for me anymore. Events are the draw that hooks me back in after a break. without them I'm likely to just fade away.

Keith/Brinret/Eronderl

Keith is correct

-Wyrom, APM

Keith is correct.

-GameMaster Estild

"Just stop going to events if they bug you. Enjoy all the benefits that these events are giving the game as a whole." -- Wyrom

Amen, Brother Wyrom! 20 years and counting.
(I've never been to a pay event. The year EG was open to all [announced at 'Con, maybe... 2005?] I got about three rooms in and said, not just 'no' but "Oh, HELL no." [Too crowded.])

I have, however, enjoyed the benefits of many events. Ask Durakar how much custom I've thrown his way for being a Duskruin and EG task-runner over the last couple of years. (Thanks again, Durakar! :) And I find the number of Auction-level items I've wound up with from past festivals and events kind of disturbing, given that I haven't really been in-game for, uhhh, most of the 2000's.

.

With that said, for ten dollars to access just the SHOPS--to presumably include the automated Fusion shaman--which, by definition, I can get to on my own schedule and not have to worry about crowds in merchant lines (other than, "Look at those sixty people in the line!... that many more people NOT popping in & out of this shop while I'm browsing!"), well... maybe they WOULD hook me in.
(But, I'll be honest, I still think I'm more likely to continue to pay someone else.)

Have we really fallen so far down the micro transaction hole? Now we've gone from telling people that not all events are for everyone, when micro transactions are a concern, to just don't go to any events? I understand the sentiment of "wait for more details" but this makes me worry that I won't like them shen I hear them.

So let me ask, straight up, can I pay $50 and get thr same level of access to EG this year that I got last year? Keep in mind that included digging and/or games for 8+ hours a day while the event was open. Beyond that are there any plans to continue running at least one yearly event which has a flat access fee to enjoy ALL aspects of the event without any micro transactions present?

I'm trying to trust you here because you've always been great. I hope the details you want us to wait for bear that out. It just sounds like every event is turning into a reskinnrd form of Dudkruin and I despise that pricing model. I justify event purchases on an enjoyment hour per dollar basis compared to buying a new console RPG. EG always met that criteria and DR never had.

If you haven't done so already, be sure to check out the State of Elanthia on youtube (link below). Right around 9 minutes the new info for EG is brought up. There is some info here and there on it. Right about 14:10 (where the link starts you), a more detailed request on pricing is asked for EG.

https://youtu.be/PXn3Rk0Ik1E?t=850

Here are the quick summarized (not quoted) notes by Wyrom about EG pricing:
Event is free, everyone can go to the new location of EG.
To access shops, a shop pass is required - cost is about $10
To play games, they will cost more, but the cost will be "balanced" to be right around $50 - the cost of past years EG ticket price. However, if you want to spend more to do more, you can.

Right around 17:15 Wyrom makes mention that there is no unlimited digging and digging will be like how DR digging is handled by purchasing pickaxes.

Right around 25:30 it is questioned about EG carousel. Wyrom mentions they were going to discontinue it, but they're not completely certain yet if they will discontinue it or bring it back. This is still up in the air as of the time of the video.

---

With all that info known, this is why I personally have chose not to continue my time with GS anymore. Like I said in my original post, some people won't care, some people will. Everyone has some line they've drawn on what it'll take before they don't care for their situation anymore and will leave - this complete overhaul with everything going to micro transactions was it for me. I've had people say I'm overreacting or I'm being a "drama queen", please, feel free to have your opinion, but your comments have no impact on my decision and I could care less what you think of me (however, it just helps drive that I made the right decision to leave the game so I no longer have to be around the nastiness that some of the players in the game carry with them all the time).

In all seriousness, Wyrom, help me price out in real money what it would cost if I were to stick around and have a similar run in my time at games and digging. I tracked my digging and games played at EG last year. If digging and/or games are priced similarly as DR, it's $0.10 a dig (100 use pickaxe for 1,000 SimuCoins). We'll use that as the cost for digging for the up and coming EG.

My EG 2016 digs/games and cost in silvers
Cost per dig/game	Number of digs/games	Total price
1,000 silver	2,669 digs	2,669,000 silver
500 silver	14,732 games	7,366,000 silver
Total Silver: 10,035,000 silver

I spent a lot of my downtime (from work) digging and playing games. I couldn't commit my time while at work hoping to get merchant work done because I'd hate to be pulled away to do actual work while I wait or miss my chance at a merchant, let alone wasting other people's times if I'm AFK.

Let's say I now pay $0.10 for each dig and we'll say $0.05 for each game played:

Possible 2017 EG cost in RL money based on DR cost
Cost per dig/game	Number of digs/games	Total price
$0.10/dig	2,669 digs	$266.90
$0.05/game	14,732 games	$736.60
Total cost: $1003.50
This would be 20x the cost of 1 EG ticket last year

Let's say the cost is even less:

Another possible cost with lower pricing
Cost per dig/game	Number of digs/games	Total price
$0.05/dig	2,669	$133.45
$0.01/game	14,732 games	$147.32
Total cost: $280.77
This would be almost 6x the cost of 1 EG ticket last year

Even if digging was $0.01 a dig, that's still $26.69 for 2,669 digs + $147.32 for 14,732 games = $174.01
This would be over 3x the cost of 1 EG ticket last year.

I couldn't have a similar experience at EG with my available time for a $50 price tag this year as I could last year. Maybe I'm wrong on the pricing, but I highly doubt it considering the cost at other events such as DM, DR or Summit Academy.

I fail to see how, as mentioned in the youtube link that pricing right around $50 will be balanced to allow someone to have a similar experience of what they did in past visits to EG. EG was my last event where I could actually usefully spend in game silvers I earned on things that just weren't fluff. I can only make use of so much fluff. There is so much out there, it's mind boggling. Fluff stuff ranges from worthless to amazing, in my opinion, and you can only do so much with it. I can only spend so much at the forging slab generator before I have no room to hold all the slabs or I have a horrible run of luck, but the last two years at EG and trying my luck with slabs, almost 50% of all my slabs were iron. It was a large silver sink for me to get a decent amount of ore to work with in the forge - I can only spend so much silver on slabs before it really becomes a more of a loss than a gain for me.

So...yeah. I'm irritated beyond words and I've made my choice to leave the game because of it. It may seem trivial to some or others may understand my situation. I don't enjoy the direction my subscription based game has taken with events needing to have micro transactions on top of my subscription cost to do the same things I could do with silvers in years prior. I had fun for many, many years. I just don't enjoy the game enough anymore with what it's become to spend my money on it anymore.

-Drumpel

One of the things I'm not sure people are considering is that "leave it alone" may not be on the table.

The options might be this, or nothing.

Duskruin, Delirium, and even Reim are massive returns on investment. These are efforts that are handled by small teams, and have extremely high returns. These have been what have been fueling game development for the last couple years, and are why there's been an explosive amount of development.

EG, on the other hand, requires massive effort from an enormous amount of GM's, and has a pretty fixed income. It's pretty safe to assume that EG has consistently cost the company money, and not been profitable, at least specifically based on the event.

One run of DR pulls in ::checks napkin math:: About 7 times as much as Ebon Gate did under the old pricing model. Delirium was probably 3-4 times. Both are likely far, far less work, so the multiplier on ROI is much higher.

In fact, under the new model, the part that takes the MOST time for EG (Shops, Merchants, etc.) will be dirt cheap ($10). The games are all much closer to DR/DM/Reim in terms of coding effort (1-2 Gm's per game is what I mean) and are where they'll be making their money back.

Overall, I'm in the Wait and see camp, but I will say this, People have been threatening that changes will cause massive subscription loss for years now. It's safe to assume people aren't making good on that threat, or the game wouldn't be growing more rapidly than it has in a long time. Consider for a second that there might be a large number of players out there who aren't sitting on 100 Million Silvers, who would much rather give money to Simutronics for game dev, than to buy silvers from some shady guy on the PC who is going to use the money for who knows what. Direct Simucoin purchases allow new players to directly support the game, rather than paying some other player's rent.

I won't leave the game because of the EG changes. However (barring my stupidity) they won't get any money from me this year at EG if it does go to simucoins or however they are going to do it. I LOVE DUSKRUIN!! however I want EG the way it should be!

Yes i love to gamble, but you have to draw the line somewhere. It used to be we are changing some things towards micro transactions now it seems to be everything.

It's hard to wait and see for pretty much all of us in this instant gratification want to know world

To continue holding the unpopular side of the discussion...

Have you considered that the number of games/events may not align perfectly to the droprate of the new games? that's another data point that I'd need before I make a decision. In all honesty, while yes, I too had the time to participate in 5,000+ iterations of the games, I wouldn't mind if the droprates were 10 times better, and I only did 500. The zero points need to be known, but it's possible that the goal here is to have people spending less hours on a carousel and allowing them to condense the time.

When the entry is based on silvers, they have to zero everything to the people who have way too much time, way too many silvers, etc.

Also, who's to say that they only have transaction-based purchases (50 tickets for 50 digs, or whatever)?

They already have precedent for duration-based purchases (runed/60-use rings versus sunny/30-day rings), and could certainly come up with more for this. Single-dig, 5-dig, 10-dig, 100-dig bundles; day pass, 3-day/half-week pass, 7-day/full-week pass, whatever.
Just more price points for them to balance around. Sure, there will be some out-of-work/out-of-school caffeine-driven insomniacs who can work their full-day pass for 22:45, but not too many.

Well played... :)

I think they were jokingly suggesting that the details and dates themselves would cost 500 simucoins. 500 coins for details. 500 coins for dates.

>>I think they were jokingly suggesting that the details and dates themselves would cost 500 simucoins. 500 coins for details. 500 coins for dates.

It's a pretty lame joke, since we've never done anything like that.

---

Wyrom, PM

>>>>I think they were jokingly suggesting that the details and dates themselves would cost 500 simucoins. 500 coins for details. 500 coins for dates.

It's a pretty lame joke, since we've never done anything like that.



I'm not disagreeing, I just felt like he misunderstood the poster's intent and the conversation might get derailed on a tangent that didn't need to exist.

If you are modernizing the game, and trying to grow...Why can't we focus on the game itself and it's very flawed and obsolete systems, instead of adding new currencies to an already fleeting silver economy on top of adding yet more cash grabs for events?

I don't speak for every player, but to me growth in this game means expanding on the systems in place and finishing up rather old goals...Not adding more means to enter events through cash.

I realize the game HAS grown and that's great, but it's still very flawed and has systems that are literally so obsolete or broken that at this point they have no place in the game until it's fixed and I'm sure many would be happy first with fixed broken things than a sweet cool new item..

~Player of Kuvras, et al