Wyrom, silver drains =/= value for silvers. That is a very incomplete valuation. If it WERE the case, they would have been deemed worthless years ago. The valuation is almost entirely based on the assumption that you can buy things with them.

Adding multiple alt-currencies takes away value for silvers, because it reduces what you can buy with silvers. This might be a "so what?" statement, except for the fact that silvers represent the monthly subscription economically, which correct me if I'm wrong, still exceeds the sum total of micro-transactions. This isn't a game where you can cycle through lots of players and forget about them 6 months after they sign up and you've made your 10 bucks. This is a game with a very loyal player base, and that base needs to know that they're getting value for their monthly subscription. Otherwise, more and more people will just start reducing their subscription to basic or F2P. Alternatively you could just move everyone to F2P. That might be OK too, but having to figure out 4 different alt-currencies + silvers is an unwanted pain in the rear.

Kerl

My main issue isn't about whether EG is a silver drain machine or not. I don't think it would be and based on what I saw and what Wyrom has shared, it's not (in a sense that makes any kind of real impact).

My issue was the normal in game currency is no longer valid as an option to use at EG (outside of spending it on items at shops). I don't have an endless means of cash to drop on SimuCoins and no amount of "freebie" SimuCoins given each month can offset the amount I spent with silvers in game to occupy my time with something I enjoyed (digging and games) at EG.

Prime account earns 150 a month: 1800 for a full year
Premium account earns 525 a month: 6,300 for a full year
Plat account earns 725 a month: 8,700 for a full year

Most people will have 5 months of "freebie" simucoins once EG comes around (if they haven't spent any) since they started to give them away. That means:

Prime accounts: 750
Premium accounts: 2,625
Plat accounts: 3,625

If I were to attend on my prime account, and pricing for digging matched DR - I could do 75 digs. However, based on my past experience with 200 digs at DR, it was a loss for me. The return I got didn't fit the amount I put into it.

If I were to attend on my premium account and pricing for digging matched DR - I could do 262 digs. This would give me a few more than what I did at DR, but based on my past experience my return would still be no better.

Sure, I wouldn't have to pay for these digs, but what happens after that? Now I have to dig into my pocket book? Maybe I then pony up $50 (5,000 coins for 500 digs). Mathematically I'm just shooting myself in the foot and basically throwing my money away for crap chances (regardless if Wyrom says output with cash is higher over what output with silver offered).

If I were to spend $50 on a ticket into EG like in the years past, not only can I visit merchants, shop (I always did some, not a lot like others, but some), investigate, look into the story line, dig and play games on my silvers....not on my wallet. If I only wanted to dig a few hundred times and then not do it again, that was my choice. But if I wanted to dig until I ran out of silvers or my fingers started to bleed from all the typing - then that was my choice too.

I no longer have that choice. All I can do is maybe spend a little time digging or playing games for $50 that will most likely, based on my experience, result in nothing in return that warrants the spending of just $50 in SimuCoins so I can dig/play games. I spent my money on a ticket into EG because I knew what was offered and I had an understanding of what was available to me and I was only limited by my in game bank account.

You can look at however you want or try to spin it however you want. To me, the same "fun" possibilities in EG for me have been pulled away and I'm told I can do it for a similar amount of money as I could in the past, but I can't so that's a flat out lie.

-Drumpel

Duskruin has poor incidental prizes, like the runestaves, because the real prize is the bloodscrip. I'm pretty sure there are people that would run it without complaint if they dropped the incidental prizes, so those really are extra (but nobody is proposing this).

I would expect that the prize pool here will be more like DM, where the incidentals were better than what you get out of DR (but not really functional). This is because of course there are jackpots and the like.

DM, and Digging, are luck-based, but it's offset by the fact that there are a larger number of break-even prizes.

I came out of DM with enough Salve, Spellup Pills, Enhancive rechargers, and other items to last a long, long time. I also got enough lighten/deepen notes, and enough chono-orbs that I was leaving them on the ground until Wyrom made the Chronoshakers.

Based on the Simucoin price, silvers sales price (even with their current "low value") and conversion to RMT, I came out ahead based on DM. I have a locker full of notes I'll use on projects etc. that I could probably liquidate for about 50 million.

So if EG digging is at least balanced the same as DM, I will consider it a worthwhile activity even just because of the break-even prizes.


Anyway, my point here is that the Runestaves and other stuff from Duskruin are really bonus, you can't get jackpots from Duskruin.

>>We can go back and forth that digging in general isn't gambling due to your always acquiring some type of item in return but I'd be very curious to know the stats on ACTUAL purchases of these simucoins items versus how many are awarded as prizes. I am not aware of a lot of folks spending real money on a monthly basis for urchin runners, feather charms, guild passes, etc.

I am curious, as well, but at the same time, who needs to spend anything for some of those since last events made them so common? I still have more than enough blue charms for a while, but they are otherwise pretty nice.

_ _ _
Wyrom gestures at you, causing you to explode.

<MEKK1, we actually have thousands.

That are unique? I have 2 subs myself.

That is surprising if correct.

http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif

<Yes.

Well color me surprised.

That's great for the game though!

http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif

>The key here is that the SimuCoins you are paying with, are NOT something that you are paying for out-of-pocket as you would have with prior years' EG tickets (in order to get access to where the digging was possible in the first place).
With two accounts (one each Prime + Premium) you're at 330+ digs, withOUT having paid cash for your ticket; everything has been covered by the 'rebate' SimuCoins from your paid subscription. Were both accounts Premium, you'd have nearly trebled the digging (534 vs. 200).

Still can't spin it to look good, no matter how hard you want to.

I could, in theory, go in there with some "freebie" digs/games.

If memory serves me right, it usually took about 24 seconds (on average for me) to do a full dig cycle. Shovel out, dig/dig/dig/etc until box found, open box (sometimes pry), look in it, empty the box out and gather any tickets/coins. Sometimes you'd find a box on the first dig (5-7 seconds maybe) and other times you'd dig 5-6 times and spend 54-60 seconds digging.

A midway game takes roughly 11 seconds (10 seconds for the game RT and about 1 second to combine tickets won or stuffing an item in my container before playing the game again).

Last year I put in 2,669 digs (maybe a lot for some, not so many for others) and 14,732 games.
I spent at least 72,063 seconds digging --> 1,201.05 minutes --> 20.02 hours
I spent at least 162,052 seconds on games --> 2700.87 minutes --> 45.01 hours
This happened over the course of 2+ weeks or so that digging and games were allowed.

I had a bit of downtime at work to fill my time with digging and games and also I could put in time at home with games/digging when I couldn't sit idle at the computer for merchants and was doing chores or entertaining the kids. I spent a large chunk of silvers doing this.

Were I to make use of the "freebie" digs I could use (337 digs). That would occupy very little time compared to last year.....9,099 seconds --> 151.65 minutes --> 2.53 hours

So I could kill about 2.5 hours with digging that costs me nothing.

What about the rest of my time that I enjoyed utilizing with digging or games? That comes from the wallet now. It's safe to assume a dig is 10 SimuCoins, so $50 spent on SimuCoins would easily grant me 500 more digs.

500 more digs at an average of 24 seconds a dig means 12,000 seconds --> 200 minutes --> 3.33 hours
3.33 hours of possible digging entertainment for $50 + 2.5 hours from "freebie" digs means 5.83 hours of my time. This is something I could do in a day or maybe spread across 3 days if work is actually busy (historically, it slows down at my work around start of fall and into the end of winter. I'm required to be here in my position for my hours in case something comes up that I need to handle + some days are still busy and others not so much).

What then happens with the rest of my free time I want to put towards digging or games? Wyrom says they'll "balance" it out so those that buy a $50 ticket in the past years will have a similar experience. Clearly I won't.

Digging/games in the past have had the chance at interesting items to use. Some are really neat from the T4 wins that I've never seen before and a lot of T5 items are very interesting (some clearly more than others). Now, like DM/DR, the EG digs (I can guess with 100% certainty) some wins will include useless SimuCoin items that, according to Wyrom, should be ample enough to "offset" the cost of digging when compared to what you would have spent on actual items from the SimuStore.

I don't want that crap from the SimuStore. If I did, I'd be gobbling it up by paying more money on top of my subscription. However, I don't need that stuff.

You could argue that someone in my position could sell them off in game for silver. Really? What dang good would that do for me? Silvers can't be used to feed my digging/game fun anymore. In the past years, sure, heck yeah! Gimmie silvers to feed my digging/game addiction at EG. I'm all for it! Doesn't work that way anymore, though. I saved my silvers for EG, the last venue they meant something for me and actually allowed me to feel I had a chance at something worthwhile.

You could then say I could in turn, take those silvers and sell them for cash (not here on the officials, but on other sites)....but what good does that do me? I don't peddle my stuff out for cash and the stuff I'd be finding that I don't want, others will be pulling the same things....why would people buy them from me if they're just finding their own or can snatch them up at the SimuStore?

You could then say, just give the items away. Yeah, I could certainly do that, but then I have nothing really to show for my effort in digging or playing games.

Maybe they'll include in EG digging prizes, like they did with DM searches, notes for lightening and deepening....but those don't do me any good. I don't really have anything I want/need lightened or deepened because I've already had the work done on the items I have over the past years. Then the cycle could start all over of suggesting to sell them or give them away.

In the end, you can't put a spin on it to make it sound like this is a good thing to me. I don't know how many others out there feel the same (a few? sure....a decent amount? maybe....a majority? highly unlikely), but requiring SimuCoins to do these digs/games now and then substituting worthless junk from the SimuStore to "offset" the cost to make it feel like you're getting something good in return for you money so they can say this isn't gambling....that's just not true. The addition of simustore items into prizes gets them around the fact that it is gambling. They can claim that the customer is getting in return a similar value based on the cost of the items in the simustore, they're just "exchanging" their cash for a random chance to get other things as well, but they still get a similar return on their investment.

In reality, people get loaded down with multiples of stuff they probably won't use, can't use or will never get around to using it all during their remaining time they stay with the game.

So, stop trying to put a silver lining into this (at least for me) because there isn't one.

-Drumpel

Sorry, a bit confused if someone could clarify. I get that I can pay 10.00 now and gain access to the shops.
What I am not sure about is how are we to pay for merchandise? In silvers, seashells, tickets or script?
Meaning, is it going to end up costing Simucoins to buy something from the shops?

Thanks!



A giantman rogue glances at you and shouts, "Ain'tcha got better things to do than pick a fight? Git lost!"

Yeah, and shells will only be for the "prize wall" type stuff. Everything you need a shop pass for should be silvers after that.

<<(If I haven't screwed up the scientific notation, and conversion of kg > pounds (*2.2) > ounces (*16) > silvers (*160, per Wiki), Deimos would be 8,313,958,400,000,000,000 [8.313x10^18] silvers.) ... But GemStone has no silver mining industry. The game is NEVER going to "run out of silver", like the Comstock Lode eventually did.>> - Krakii

We live in a bizarre magical world where the weight of silver changes depending on how much of it you are holding. That should have been our first warning something was wrong. Silver mining is a very dangerous business in these parts. There is swamp land in Florida, bridges in Brooklyn, and then silver mines in the Lysierian Hills.


<<... thread ... >>

This does not really apply to me because I barely ever use pay events. The price point of the market on pretty much anything is too rich for my blood. Not just silver, scrip, or dollars, but the time sink in generating that alt currency if I am not buying it off other people, I cannot imagine digging like an endless reel of scratch-off lotto tickets. I would only maybe do things that effectively convert $ => scrip if it was fungible, so that I can gradually build up a reserve without worrying about it suddenly becoming worthless.

This is what I think of every time I see one of these site specific currencies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dErRj6V8_xQ

<<The various 'currencies'? I see them in GemStone as kind of like going to a big mall. (GemStone is the mall.) Each of the half-dozen video arcades in there have a change-maker dispensing THEIR tokens; naturally, each of the tokens is unique in dimension so none of them can run each other's machines. That's scrip (scrip, shells, tickets, marks, whathaveyou).>>

I have had this analogy in my head as well. I remember there were people saving up tickets from the arcade machines earned from spending on game tokens, trying to go for the "big ticket" items eventually. At some point there was a new owner of the arcade, and the old tickets became obsolete. Meanwhile it would have been easier to just buy whatever it was other ways. I think my father had me do the math, then he added gas on top of it, then whatever I would have made working instead of earning tickets.

Naturally, when I then had a savings account while working in middle school, the bank started charging monthly service fees well in excess of the interest.

- Xorus' player

No need to have those fears. We have been talking a bit about this thread. We also had a lot more to talk about for EG, so using State of Elanthia to only briefly talk about the event was not the best choice without GM Haliste present since she is our lead.

---

Wyrom, PM

When I talked to people about general tickets at SimuCon, and even here on the forums, I've tried to explain that those will be one of 2 default currencies moving forward. That doesn't mean we'll have two. But the default currencies are going to be used at a wide variety of venues, instead of keyed to just one event. Or one event archetype.

---

Wyrom, PM

Because there is no limit to silver generation, I doubt that they will ever have a silver-only (or even "substantially silver") setup. As you note, they're in it as a business in order to make money.

.

Now with that said... No, I really don't have any objection whatsoever to having an in-game option to make silvers useful for these tickets. (Once you have already paid your cash-money SimuCoins to get into the event in the first place.)
+1% to all ticket [as a generic term, meaning scrip, shells, marks, or whatever is generated at this event] generation, 1M apiece.
You get to make ONE purchase of a booster, per event (no matter its duration), but you can spend as many whole-millions (only, no fractions) as you want.
Yes, if you pay 100M, you can double your tickets [scrip shells marks whatever]. (For this one event. And a hundred million silvers are gone forever.)

Would it enable people to get some of those more expensive items worth tens and hundreds of millions of silvers, faster? Yes, at a cost of tens and hundreds of millions of silvers leaving the game.

And this could be another random treasure drop during normal game-play, too.
"Hey, I found 'a glittering ersatz tesseract' with four lit sides! That's worth +4% at the next event, maybe I'll decide to (pay some SimuCoins that I bought with Realm Moneys) and go after all...
Inverse to the Cube in Transformers, you can add (bundle) as many tesseracts to each other as you choose, and they accumulate their percentage value. (Didn't we just see something like this recently with treasure-found stuff that you could bundle to get a discount on... something, somewhere? Maybe at the Spire?)

However, should anything like this come to pass, I would be firmly against the possibility of it being sold in SimuCoin form. (Until and unless billions or trillions of silver have left under some system like this.)

.

In addition, I would be perfectly fine with seeing, "Hey, I found a scrimshawed seashell in this box! It looks like it could be used as a free ticket to <whichever event generates shells>!" happen with random drops, too. The cost to Simutronics is minimal, because not everyone opens boxes; not everyone is inclined to go to events (like me, though even I might with a free one); and even if the box is opened and the person goes, there are still SimuCoin opportunities once they're on the grounds.

The customer has appreciated and now its turning in huge dividends.

http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif

Remember that Wyrom is no longer on the pizza-and-beer-money GM side, but now salaried staff. So the scope of and his approach to things with which he is tasked is likely to be somewhat different.

And of course they're trying to increase sales. Do you think McDonald's has their people standing there saying, "Nope, not interested in selling you food today."?

.

Customer appreciation? You mean like the (free) meteor/web/spider-charm thing that just happened? Or the (free) Frontier Days that just happened? Or the (free) <something else> that I'm sure just happened, that I just didn't notice?

Are you Premium? Selling Points for fun and profit has definitely appreciated in value.

I've been eating Sausage Eggamuffin for breakfast at the same group of four McDonald's (depending on how I commute) for the last twenty years. Exactly how much customer appreciation do you think I get from them? (i.e. "No, not once have they ever given me a free sandwich, nor even a free coffee. I do get free use of their table, but that hardly differs from a new customer, does it?")

>Customer appreciation? You mean like the (free) meteor/web/spider-charm thing that just happened? Or the (free) Frontier Days that just happened? Or the (free) <something else> that I'm sure just happened, that I just didn't notice?

Don't worry. They'll find something in that whole "free" event they can say....you know if we just tack some SimuCoin charge on this corner of the event for stuff people want, they'll still pay and the rest of the event will be free!

I can see it now.....

Frontier Days 2018!

Spend 1000 SimuCoins to enter Raffle A for Item X
Spend 500 SimuCoins to enter Raffle B for Item Y
Spend 2500 SimuCoins to enter Raffle C for Item Z (is a lot more awesome-er than Item Y or X, so it costs more)

Don't you guys worry though, the rest of the event is free! Merchants work for free and shops take silvers!

a year pass

Frontier Days 2019!

Raffles are still available to enter with SimuCoins
Alteration merchants will be available for 500 SimuCoin per item done.
Lighten/Deepen merchants will be available for 250 SimuCoins per item worked on (each lightening or deepening costs 250 SimuCoins)

Shops are free and take silvers!

another year passes

We had such a great turn out the previous year that we've offered other merchant work at this free event

Raffles are still available to enter with SimuCoins
Alteration merchant services: 1 @ 750 SimuCoins, 2 @ 1400 SimuCoins or 3 @ 1800 SimuCoins
Lighten/Deepen merchant services: 1 @ 500 SimuCoins, 2 @ 800 SimuCoins, 3 @ 1100 SimuCoins, 4 @ 1400 SimuCoins or 5 @ 1650 SimuCoins!
Shops - Access to shops for 500 SimuCoins and everything sells for silvers! So come spend your hard earned silvers!
The "free" aspect of the event is that you can walk around and look at everything still. You can get the lay of the land and see where the entrance to the shops is and see all the raffles and merchant wagons.....but you need to pony up some $ for SimuCoins to access any of it. However, you're still "free" to walk around and look.

Hopefully I'm wrong, but based on the current trend, don't be surprised if thing start to head this direction.

Considering that this was the "12th Annual Frontier Days", precedent & tradition make me feel that the "continues to be free" is more likely than the "gradual for-cost creep".
But hey, if it brings you back to say, "See!?!?! You were wrong!" I'll count that a plus, because, you know. You'd be back. :)

All this conversion to simucoins for everything really annoys me. If silver prices keep dropping in probably be I'll have to stop playing eventually or go down to one 15 dollar account. So my question is if simutronics hadn't been bought or certain people or persons weren't being paid would the empahisis stil be on simucoins and milkng us?

The pretry much total change from silvers is just very tough to swallow so to speak.