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>>> All that for 3 spell slots.... and people complain about cleric debilitation.
Keep in mind that my WM is 10th circle and has been for something like three years, but are you sure this is actually the issue? Would you actually feel better if the spell cost, say, five slots? Slot costs seem to be used more to allow a guild to have an expansive cornucopia of abilities available but ensure balance by limiting every character to a comparable suite of abilities. If you disagree fundamentally with how a spell works increasing its' slot cost shouldn't matter.
GNIKOLEYCHUK
URITEL
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 10:04 PM CST
I'll just throw up some testing that was done.
280 in Magic contest stats (Wis/Int/Disc) max cast Eddy vs 335 in Fortitude contest stats (Stam/Disc/Str) with no barriers up resulted in the target getting paralyzed in under a minute of the cyclic running. Bumping Fortitude stat contest up to 350 helped resist casts/pulses.
280 in Magic contest stats (Wis/Int/Disc) max cast Eddy vs 220 in Fortitude contest stats (Stam/Disc/Str) with no barriers against it resulted in the target getting paralyzed in under a minute of the cyclic running. Over a few tests, first pulses popped buffed thief out of hiding, meanwhile paralyzing them, so in under a minute the thief with 1200+ base stealth, but with darken and silence running was unable to hide without getting auto pointed by someone at missile who had ~800 perception. Characters with ~600 perception were now able to see them hide, too.
Didn't notice any difference in effect whether they are at missile, pole, or melee.
The part I'm struggling with is that I like the spell, but I haven't come up with a good alternative to make it keep it's appeal and balance it out to 3.1.
SARAGOS
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 10:21 PM CST
Uritel, was WATCH being used?
Also, Javac said that EE passes through core mechanics for efficacy. A number of people are saying EE is easy to hit with. Is it really any easier to hit with than other spells, or are we just noticing how swingy SvS contests can be because we've got a microscope on it? My thought is that it's the latter, but that the minor hits stack up quickly even when you're barely hitting.
- Saragos
Also, Javac said that EE passes through core mechanics for efficacy. A number of people are saying EE is easy to hit with. Is it really any easier to hit with than other spells, or are we just noticing how swingy SvS contests can be because we've got a microscope on it? My thought is that it's the latter, but that the minor hits stack up quickly even when you're barely hitting.
- Saragos
URITEL
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 10:30 PM CST
>>Uritel, was WATCH being used?
Watch was not being used nor any perception boosters like CV, etc.
I haven't noticed much of a difference in EE vs other fortitude spells, no. Arc light was able to land in a similar manner. I believe some of the differences have been pointed out though, such as it being a cyclic and it automatically latching on to someone who faces them while in hiding/invisible instead of actually having to CAST on the target like you do with mental blast.
A ~7 second stun of arc light that has diminishing returns (however yes, did give a head wound) vs being able to paralyze a target in under a minute (debilitating them beyond the 20% that's been suggested here) is a decent reason to put the spell under a microscope.
BINU
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 10:45 PM CST
>>Paralyze a target in under a minute.
Javac stated that the spell pulses every ~16 seconds. Are you saying that the target is getting to complete paralysis in 3 pulses of the spell?
Javac stated that the spell pulses every ~16 seconds. Are you saying that the target is getting to complete paralysis in 3 pulses of the spell?
URITEL
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 10:57 PM CST
>>Javac stated that the spell pulses every ~16 seconds.
Mmm.. then just over a minute, by a few seconds. Thought it was 14-15 seconds (based on what we counted.)
DR-JAVAC
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 11:06 PM CST
Mistake in my math... The first pulse happens quickly, therefore it is about 50 seconds. If you are capping the win. Why you're capping the win in this case is beyond me, though the stats are weighted, I assume there's not a huge spread here.
I will dig into Stealth as well, because there is apparently a debuff to stealth of insane proportions associated with nerve damage. It may be a few days before I get to it/find it. Core Stealth is not something I've looked at before.
Javac
That one guy
If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.
I will dig into Stealth as well, because there is apparently a debuff to stealth of insane proportions associated with nerve damage. It may be a few days before I get to it/find it. Core Stealth is not something I've looked at before.
Javac
That one guy
If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.
WILLARDR
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 11:16 PM CST
> 280 in Magic contest stats (Wis/Int/Disc) max cast Eddy vs 335 in Fortitude contest stats (Stam/Disc/Str
While on the surface 280 vs 335 sounds like something is off, this will require a GM to look into personally though. SvS contests are a little more involved than simply adding three stats together or dividing their total by three. Dominating one stat of the contests can skewer the results. I run into a lot with people because I train multiple toons with skewered stats.
It also might be a good idea to email the characters names so a GM can look into this.
> thief with 1200+ base stealth
> Characters with ~600 perception were now able to see them hide, too.
This sounds a bit extreme as well and excedes 20%. If the above is true then a review of nerve damages effects against stealth should be in order.
URITEL
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 11:23 PM CST
>>Dominating one stat of the contests can skewer the results.
Understand, and can narrow it down for you.
Magic: 100 Disc, 90 Int, 90 Wis
Fortitude: 115 Str, 120 Disc, 100 Stam
Later bumped the Stamina up to 115 and that's when resisting kicked in.
SLEE1
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 11:31 PM CST
Another contest since multiple points of view are best.
My stats:
Strength : 60 Reflex : 60
Agility : 60 Charisma : 40
Discipline : 70 Wisdom : 70
Intelligence : 60 Stamina : 61
XXXX's stats are:
Strength : 50 Reflex : 50
Agility : 50 Charisma : 50
Discipline : 52 Wisdom : 55
Intelligence : 55 Stamina : 50
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have no significant injuries.
Casted EE at 28 mana at 11:06:32
>
Achieved full paralysis at 11:12:23
Took 19 ticks
Also at the end could be seen hiding every time 435 stealth vs 232 perception if that matters.
XXXX gestures.
The air around XXXX begins to crackle with static electricity!
>
XXXX nods.
>
The air randomly discharges, leaving behind the scent of ozone.
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
>
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have some minor twitching.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have some minor twitching.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
>
> heal
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have some severe twitching.
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
>
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have some severe twitching.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
>
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have difficulty controlling actions.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
>
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have difficulty controlling actions.
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
>
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have difficulty controlling actions.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have partial paralysis of the entire body.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
>
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have partial paralysis of the entire body.
>
>
The air around XXXX crackles with more static electricity causing more random discharges!
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> heal
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have partial paralysis of the entire body.
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
>
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have partial paralysis of the entire body.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> heal
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have partial paralysis of the entire body.
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
>
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have severe paralysis of the entire body.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have severe paralysis of the entire body.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have severe paralysis of the entire body.
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have severe paralysis of the entire body.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have severe paralysis of the entire body.
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> heal
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have severe paralysis of the entire body.
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have complete paralysis of the entire body.
>
My stats:
Strength : 60 Reflex : 60
Agility : 60 Charisma : 40
Discipline : 70 Wisdom : 70
Intelligence : 60 Stamina : 61
XXXX's stats are:
Strength : 50 Reflex : 50
Agility : 50 Charisma : 50
Discipline : 52 Wisdom : 55
Intelligence : 55 Stamina : 50
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have no significant injuries.
Casted EE at 28 mana at 11:06:32
>
Achieved full paralysis at 11:12:23
Took 19 ticks
Also at the end could be seen hiding every time 435 stealth vs 232 perception if that matters.
XXXX gestures.
The air around XXXX begins to crackle with static electricity!
>
XXXX nods.
>
The air randomly discharges, leaving behind the scent of ozone.
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
>
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have some minor twitching.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have some minor twitching.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
>
> heal
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have some severe twitching.
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
>
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have some severe twitching.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
>
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have difficulty controlling actions.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
>
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have difficulty controlling actions.
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
>
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have difficulty controlling actions.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have partial paralysis of the entire body.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
>
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have partial paralysis of the entire body.
>
>
The air around XXXX crackles with more static electricity causing more random discharges!
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> heal
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have partial paralysis of the entire body.
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
>
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have partial paralysis of the entire body.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> heal
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have partial paralysis of the entire body.
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
>
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have severe paralysis of the entire body.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have severe paralysis of the entire body.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have severe paralysis of the entire body.
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have severe paralysis of the entire body.
>
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have severe paralysis of the entire body.
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> heal
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have severe paralysis of the entire body.
You feel a tingling sensation before the air discharges a bolt through you, leaving the taste of copper in your mouth.
> health
Your body feels at full strength.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have complete paralysis of the entire body.
>
WILLARDR
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 11:46 PM CST
> I assumed that the defender was higher across the board. It also looks to me as if the defender should have resisted fairly easily. I also have no experience with stats over 100 and there might be something going on post 100 that only staff could see.
If you simply subtracted 50 from everything in your post the defender should win based of everything I have see up to 100.
Magic: 40 Wis, 40 Int 50 Disc
Fortitude: 50 stam, 70 disc, 65 str.
My bet is something wonky with stats over 100 in this case. Again I think a GM will need to look into this personally to see what is actually going on. Emailing them the characters in question should be enough for them to start looking though.
THAYET
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 11:49 PM CST
Spell potency is a thing. It may well account for some of the results.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
BENNETTJ13
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 12:20 AM CST
My opinion stems from a few things. My own tests, and the accounts from those that I trust. People may or may not know I help run the Wyvern Trials. I get to see a lot of tactics, play-styles, etc. What I witnessed just last night was a thief who normally wrecks the same wm every time I've ever been aware of them fighting... lose. And lose pretty badly. The only thing different was EE. The wm in the fight even admitted how OP it is. I don't care about the spell in PVE. It doesn't affect me. But it's results in PVP are a bit much.
>>How it should work in the lore is anything that interrupts your ability to keep one rigorous line of thought going constantly should disrupt the Cyclic. Whether or not we will do this for game-balance sake is under discussion.
I mean... this happens to thieves, that's how it works. I don't see how it's so earth shattering. ALL of our khri are based on concentration, both initial cost, and upkeep pulses. And when you run out of concentration they ALL drop... And for a good bit too, until you can regen and put them back up. You don't get to keep your debilitators up for funsies. People can complain about GvG, but I just want it to be equal. If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander. That's how balance works. If you can nullify my primary skillset as a defense because it's your tert, then I can nullify yours for the same reason. I want a khri that I can put up and negate magic completely after a few pulses. Sound ridiculous? It is. It is also exactly what is happening here. When you guys throw around game balance like that it's irksome. Because some of us have lived with that playstyle since we were "updated" to 3.0 and now it's not good enough for everyone else? It's a feature for us, but everyone else gets a pass because "reasons".
>>I will dig into Stealth as well, because there is apparently a debuff to stealth of insane proportions associated with nerve damage. It may be a few days before I get to it/find it. Core Stealth is not something I've looked at before.
Awesome. Thank you.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
>>How it should work in the lore is anything that interrupts your ability to keep one rigorous line of thought going constantly should disrupt the Cyclic. Whether or not we will do this for game-balance sake is under discussion.
I mean... this happens to thieves, that's how it works. I don't see how it's so earth shattering. ALL of our khri are based on concentration, both initial cost, and upkeep pulses. And when you run out of concentration they ALL drop... And for a good bit too, until you can regen and put them back up. You don't get to keep your debilitators up for funsies. People can complain about GvG, but I just want it to be equal. If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander. That's how balance works. If you can nullify my primary skillset as a defense because it's your tert, then I can nullify yours for the same reason. I want a khri that I can put up and negate magic completely after a few pulses. Sound ridiculous? It is. It is also exactly what is happening here. When you guys throw around game balance like that it's irksome. Because some of us have lived with that playstyle since we were "updated" to 3.0 and now it's not good enough for everyone else? It's a feature for us, but everyone else gets a pass because "reasons".
>>I will dig into Stealth as well, because there is apparently a debuff to stealth of insane proportions associated with nerve damage. It may be a few days before I get to it/find it. Core Stealth is not something I've looked at before.
Awesome. Thank you.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
BINU
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 12:23 AM CST
So, 6 minutes to fully paralyze you while you just stood still? That seems fine to me. If it was real PvP, you could have snuck out, snuck back in, advanced using shadowstep for an eliminate backstab, ambush stun, ambush clout, ambush slash, etc.
SLEE1
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 12:28 AM CST
>>So, 6 minutes to fully paralyze you while you just stood still? That seems fine to me. If it was real PvP, you could have snuck out, snuck back in, advanced using shadowstep for an eliminate backstab, ambush stun, ambush clout, ambush slash, etc.
Doubtful, I'm a cleric...was just helping with tests and posted the results.
Doubtful, I'm a cleric...was just helping with tests and posted the results.
BINU
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 12:33 AM CST
Ah, thought you were a thief for some reason. You still could have attacked and used your own debilitators in that time, if it had been a real fight. Either way, 6 minutes to full paralysis is not game-breaking.
FRANKYFIGGS
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 12:47 AM CST
put it as TM. if it's tm and causing damage, no conflict with debil. replace nerve damage with low scale multistrike random body damage, remove the unhide effect. still hits things in hiding. have metal weapons and armor amplify damage. rename it to chain lightning :P
I feel that so long as it has the ability to unhide people, it will be balked at. if it cost 10 slots and had a 5 percent chance to unhide a stealth primary, it would be balked at. I think the fact that it does nerve damage is simply the corridor being used to argue against giving war mages any further defense against stealthed characters.
in it's current carnation I use it all the time, to soften creatures up and to learn debil fantastically. it certainly isn't a one stop shop for winning a pve encounter, but it does help exponentially fighting multiple critters, and it has great synergy with other aoe single casts and is pretty much my new favorite spell to use.
nerve damage is like having some cuts a bruises at full paralysis, kinda sorta noticeable, but as was said, the bigger you are the less it's effect.
-Munch-
I feel that so long as it has the ability to unhide people, it will be balked at. if it cost 10 slots and had a 5 percent chance to unhide a stealth primary, it would be balked at. I think the fact that it does nerve damage is simply the corridor being used to argue against giving war mages any further defense against stealthed characters.
in it's current carnation I use it all the time, to soften creatures up and to learn debil fantastically. it certainly isn't a one stop shop for winning a pve encounter, but it does help exponentially fighting multiple critters, and it has great synergy with other aoe single casts and is pretty much my new favorite spell to use.
nerve damage is like having some cuts a bruises at full paralysis, kinda sorta noticeable, but as was said, the bigger you are the less it's effect.
-Munch-
FRANKYFIGGS
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 12:50 AM CST
Elec I think a khri for negating magic is a good idea, the caveat being it tanks your stealth (but not evasion)
-Munch-
-Munch-
SARAGOS
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 01:48 AM CST
> If you simply subtracted 50 from everything in your post the defender should win based of everything I have see up to 100.
> Magic: 40 Wis, 40 Int 50 Disc
> Fortitude: 50 stam, 70 disc, 65 str.
> My bet is something wonky with stats over 100 in this case. Again I think a GM will need to look into this personally to see what is actually going on. Emailing them the characters in question should be enough for them to start looking though.
Hmmm. I don't know about stats over 100 either, but if the stats were as the ones you posted, I wouldn't be shocked if someone could hit casting near cap. I did some testing with some other spells with some friends recently and there was some success had with similar disparities. I think, especially with a lot of mana, SvS contests have a lot more swing than people give them credit for.
- Saragos
> Magic: 40 Wis, 40 Int 50 Disc
> Fortitude: 50 stam, 70 disc, 65 str.
> My bet is something wonky with stats over 100 in this case. Again I think a GM will need to look into this personally to see what is actually going on. Emailing them the characters in question should be enough for them to start looking though.
Hmmm. I don't know about stats over 100 either, but if the stats were as the ones you posted, I wouldn't be shocked if someone could hit casting near cap. I did some testing with some other spells with some friends recently and there was some success had with similar disparities. I think, especially with a lot of mana, SvS contests have a lot more swing than people give them credit for.
- Saragos
WILLARDR
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 02:15 AM CST
> the stats were as the ones you posted
This was just subtracting 50 from all stats involved so that is was more familiar to more people. I do think the GMs would like to look at this particular contest and see what is exactly going on there.
> I think, especially with a lot of mana, SvS contests have a lot more swing than people give them credit for.
While what you are saying is true, at a glance my vote would be on the defender winning this contest. I do hope that some behind the scenes tests of URITEL's situation will provide data so that things can move forward and mages can enjoy their shiny new toy in peace while not crapping on others.
PRIMEQ
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 03:29 AM CST
Here are the questions I would be asking when considering this spell:
1) How big a debuff does it give to one's ability to cast/hide? 20% is the cap of what we can buff so I imagine 20% should be around the cap of what we can debuff, assuming complete success. If nerves are affecting stealth a lot more than 20%, then the nerves-effect should certainly be looked at.
2) How much do remedies mitigate the problem? Drinking the nerve wound + scar remedies can be done with 0 RT in a single macro. If there's a relatively easy remedy solution, is the nerve damage a big deal? Note that I think right now you can just keep on using remedies as often as you like (with a short cooldown after the drink), though this is supposed to change eventually with toxicity.
I went ahead and did some testing with Saragos so we could have some data to look at. GMs, feel free to glance at our stats, but Saragos was casting near his personal cap and Navesi received a direct hit each pulse.
Total time to complete paralysis: 1:54s
First pulse - minor twitching
Second pulse - severe twitching
Third pulse - difficulty controlling actions
Fourth pulse - difficulty controlling actions
Fifth pulse - partial paralysis
Sixth pulse - partial paralysis
Seventh pulse - severe paralysis
Eighth pulse - severe paralysis
Ninth pulse - complete paralysis
We also tested how long it took me to heal using remedies afterward.
Total time to clean appearance: 2:16s
First pulse - partial paralysis
Second pulse - severe twitching
Third pulse - minor twitching
Fourth pulse - clean appearance (though some nonvisible damage remained, oops)
So let's examine this particular case, which may not be capped but was certainly debilitating. Assuming the defender is only using the remedies once (again, not restricted right now), this means that in this (partial success) case, the defender should be able to stay relatively free of damage for the first ~2 minutes, and then it's another ~2 minutes before the final damage goes into effect.
Since Javac said that a capped success equals complete paralysis in about 50 seconds, that suggests you can stave off full damage for ~3 minutes, though you'll get to partial damage quicker.
- Navesi
1) How big a debuff does it give to one's ability to cast/hide? 20% is the cap of what we can buff so I imagine 20% should be around the cap of what we can debuff, assuming complete success. If nerves are affecting stealth a lot more than 20%, then the nerves-effect should certainly be looked at.
2) How much do remedies mitigate the problem? Drinking the nerve wound + scar remedies can be done with 0 RT in a single macro. If there's a relatively easy remedy solution, is the nerve damage a big deal? Note that I think right now you can just keep on using remedies as often as you like (with a short cooldown after the drink), though this is supposed to change eventually with toxicity.
I went ahead and did some testing with Saragos so we could have some data to look at. GMs, feel free to glance at our stats, but Saragos was casting near his personal cap and Navesi received a direct hit each pulse.
Total time to complete paralysis: 1:54s
First pulse - minor twitching
Second pulse - severe twitching
Third pulse - difficulty controlling actions
Fourth pulse - difficulty controlling actions
Fifth pulse - partial paralysis
Sixth pulse - partial paralysis
Seventh pulse - severe paralysis
Eighth pulse - severe paralysis
Ninth pulse - complete paralysis
We also tested how long it took me to heal using remedies afterward.
Total time to clean appearance: 2:16s
First pulse - partial paralysis
Second pulse - severe twitching
Third pulse - minor twitching
Fourth pulse - clean appearance (though some nonvisible damage remained, oops)
So let's examine this particular case, which may not be capped but was certainly debilitating. Assuming the defender is only using the remedies once (again, not restricted right now), this means that in this (partial success) case, the defender should be able to stay relatively free of damage for the first ~2 minutes, and then it's another ~2 minutes before the final damage goes into effect.
Since Javac said that a capped success equals complete paralysis in about 50 seconds, that suggests you can stave off full damage for ~3 minutes, though you'll get to partial damage quicker.
- Navesi
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 09:05 AM CST
As follow up...
We've done some digging and it looks like the stealth penalty on wounds (including nerves) are more severe than we're currently comfortable with. Still talking, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see a reduction in penalties here.
Beyond that we're also discussing how penalties are applied to casting. That's more fluid at the moment and I have no quick answer for you, just wanted to note we are discussing it.
Right now I'm inclined to think EE is a bit too mana-efficient for what it does, but the damage stacking will probably stay /w the caveat that we're modifying how nerve damage across the board interacts with magic and stealth.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
We've done some digging and it looks like the stealth penalty on wounds (including nerves) are more severe than we're currently comfortable with. Still talking, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see a reduction in penalties here.
Beyond that we're also discussing how penalties are applied to casting. That's more fluid at the moment and I have no quick answer for you, just wanted to note we are discussing it.
Right now I'm inclined to think EE is a bit too mana-efficient for what it does, but the damage stacking will probably stay /w the caveat that we're modifying how nerve damage across the board interacts with magic and stealth.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
NINEVAH1
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 09:32 AM CST
>>Armifer's post
Thanks for listening and taking a look at things.
Thanks for listening and taking a look at things.
DINERGRRL
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 09:39 AM CST
>>Armifer's post
>Thanks for listening and taking a look at things.
This. Thank you.
BENNETTJ13
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 10:18 AM CST
Awesome, thank you.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 10:46 AM CST
That accumulation of damage does seem pretty fast. I'm curious how much of that is a limitation of wounds themselves. How large a range is under the 13 levels of damage we (well, empaths) can diagnose? Do nerves have the same (small) number of hitpoints as other 'limbs,' and is it even possible to destroy nerves slower?
Your search-fu is pig dung!
Your search-fu is pig dung!
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 10:51 AM CST
Cool. Out of curiosity, is it just the penalty to stealth that seemed excessive?
FRANKYFIGGS
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 11:05 AM CST
mana efficiency? oi, if your looking at efficencies can you look at CL for it's efficiency? seems a bit high, part of why people take it.
-Munch-
-Munch-
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 11:06 AM CST
>>Do nerves have the same (small) number of hitpoints as other 'limbs,' and is it even possible to destroy nerves slower?
They have the same number of hitpoints as other limbs, and marginal wins can't really get any lower than they are now -- but greater-than-marginal wins could, if we find it necessary. We're going to probably revise the formula, but only minutely change the scale. Dunno yet how this will play out for distribution along the scale though.
>>Cool. Out of curiosity, is it just the penalty to stealth that seemed excessive?
Current reigning opinion is that penalty for Stealth is way, way too high, and penalty for casting is too low (but not by remotely the same degree). Bearing in mind casters can also get the Injured Casting feat if they feel the need.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
They have the same number of hitpoints as other limbs, and marginal wins can't really get any lower than they are now -- but greater-than-marginal wins could, if we find it necessary. We're going to probably revise the formula, but only minutely change the scale. Dunno yet how this will play out for distribution along the scale though.
>>Cool. Out of curiosity, is it just the penalty to stealth that seemed excessive?
Current reigning opinion is that penalty for Stealth is way, way too high, and penalty for casting is too low (but not by remotely the same degree). Bearing in mind casters can also get the Injured Casting feat if they feel the need.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
JULIAN
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 11:06 AM CST
>>We've done some digging and it looks like the stealth penalty on wounds (including nerves) are more severe than we're currently comfortable with. Still talking, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see a reduction in penalties here.
Beyond that we're also discussing how penalties are applied to casting. That's more fluid at the moment and I have no quick answer for you, just wanted to note we are discussing it.
Right now I'm inclined to think EE is a bit too mana-efficient for what it does, but the damage stacking will probably stay /w the caveat that we're modifying how nerve damage across the board interacts with magic and stealth.<<
Seems pretty reasonable. Casting penalties don't seem that bad but the stealth penalty is huge.
Mazrian
Beyond that we're also discussing how penalties are applied to casting. That's more fluid at the moment and I have no quick answer for you, just wanted to note we are discussing it.
Right now I'm inclined to think EE is a bit too mana-efficient for what it does, but the damage stacking will probably stay /w the caveat that we're modifying how nerve damage across the board interacts with magic and stealth.<<
Seems pretty reasonable. Casting penalties don't seem that bad but the stealth penalty is huge.
Mazrian
DBABIASH
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 11:19 AM CST
It seems to me like part of the issue is with SvS, capping the spell, on very high levels for both the attacker and the defender.
There haven't been enough posts to make a determination of statistical significance yet, but of those posted, when the attacker and defender were near or above 100 in all the SvS stats, time to complete paralysis has been 1-2 minutes. In the one example posted where the attacker and defender were closer to 50s in the SvS stats, time to complete paralysis was 6 minutes.
There haven't been enough posts to make a determination of statistical significance yet, but of those posted, when the attacker and defender were near or above 100 in all the SvS stats, time to complete paralysis has been 1-2 minutes. In the one example posted where the attacker and defender were closer to 50s in the SvS stats, time to complete paralysis was 6 minutes.
JULIAN
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 11:24 AM CST
The stat contest bonus for using max mana is pretty large and I think scales on a percentage basis.
Mazrian
Mazrian
UNSPEAKABLEOATH
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 12:14 PM CST
So then I'm presuming that the any balancing would be done at the middle range of the spell and not on the highest-end casting and stat combination?
FRANKYFIGGS
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 12:16 PM CST
Static electricity from the eddy around you discharges through Elec, but him seems unaffected.
-Munch-
-Munch-
FRANKYFIGGS
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/20/2016 12:55 PM CST
a little testing this afternoon, EE was pulsing on area cast between 30 and 50 seconds a pulse. big stat disparity between caster and defender. it would draw mana every 16 or so seconds. but the attack pulses between 30 and 50 secs. no successes on the pulses.
-Munch-
-Munch-
BINU
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/21/2016 12:43 AM CST
>>Armifer's post about stealth penalties...
Leg wounds have always been extremely hindering to stealth. Far more than most other wounds. They also, from what I remember, make it harder for you to unhide without falling out of hiding.
I agree with DBABIASH. There hasn't been enough testing yet, by a large enough sample of players, to warrant changing the spell already.
Leg wounds have always been extremely hindering to stealth. Far more than most other wounds. They also, from what I remember, make it harder for you to unhide without falling out of hiding.
I agree with DBABIASH. There hasn't been enough testing yet, by a large enough sample of players, to warrant changing the spell already.
SARAGOS
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/21/2016 03:14 AM CST
I just wanted to throw this out there, since the point was brought up about things like complete paralysis not being anywhere near as debilitating as it implies, that instead of reducing the stealth penalties we could cap spell damage to nerves lower and preserve the hindering nature of injuries. And even bring the physical hindrances in line with what stealth is currently at.
For example, EE and MB could be capped so that if there are 10 states of nerve damage, the max even repeat casts from the same person can bring you down is (existing state + 5) or something.
I feel like, given the prevalence of nerve damage in spellcasting that people might not be happy with me for asking for nerve damage to apply more to casting and fighting, but it might be more appropriate to make the penalties high, but make it a lot harder to get paralyzed.
- Saragos
For example, EE and MB could be capped so that if there are 10 states of nerve damage, the max even repeat casts from the same person can bring you down is (existing state + 5) or something.
I feel like, given the prevalence of nerve damage in spellcasting that people might not be happy with me for asking for nerve damage to apply more to casting and fighting, but it might be more appropriate to make the penalties high, but make it a lot harder to get paralyzed.
- Saragos
THAYET
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/21/2016 04:06 AM CST
Or instead, stealth could not be uniquely subjected to levels of debuffs that break global caps several times over.
Isn't 20% enough? Seriously.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Isn't 20% enough? Seriously.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
SARAGOS
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/21/2016 05:07 AM CST
> Or instead, stealth could not be uniquely subjected to levels of debuffs that break global caps several times over.
> Isn't 20% enough? Seriously.
I just reread what I wrote and realized I didn't explain fully. I wasn't actually suggesting that. I was suggesting that the uniqueness might be removed and that extreme wounds might be regarded as a greater than 20% penalty for everything, not just stealth. It shouldn't be unique in that.
- Saragos
> Isn't 20% enough? Seriously.
I just reread what I wrote and realized I didn't explain fully. I wasn't actually suggesting that. I was suggesting that the uniqueness might be removed and that extreme wounds might be regarded as a greater than 20% penalty for everything, not just stealth. It shouldn't be unique in that.
- Saragos
BENNETTJ13
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/21/2016 08:09 AM CST
>>I just wanted to throw this out there, since the point was brought up about things like complete paralysis not being anywhere near as debilitating as it implies...
That was in regards to nerve damage and magic.
Stealth, and several other actions (carving locks, stealing) are incredibly hindered by wounds/nerves. Honestly, the nerve damage may NOT need to be tweaked if the overall damage to stealth is tweaked instead. But that's for the GM's to decide.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
That was in regards to nerve damage and magic.
Stealth, and several other actions (carving locks, stealing) are incredibly hindered by wounds/nerves. Honestly, the nerve damage may NOT need to be tweaked if the overall damage to stealth is tweaked instead. But that's for the GM's to decide.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
