Previous
>>Bear in mind this isn't a new form of debilitation, nor did SvS weighting change. Moon Mages have been able to do it nearly forever, seemingly without problem, so we need to isolate what exactly has been added to the formula here which makes it appear to be a problem now.
The biggest issue for me is it's cyclic nature. As Raesh brought up there is no way to stop it once it's cast and all you can do is run or take it.
Beyond that it's much more available than MB. MB takes a lot more mana and time to cause similar levels of nerve damage, and the spell takes a vast amount more skill to use effectively and is deeper in the spell book with a larger slot cost. I know part of this is do to the other things the spell does, and in reality it's used more for it's status effect and not it's nerve damage. And EE is newish in the sense that it's only effect is nerve damage with no diminishing return status effect.
Third is SvS weighting for me. I hate how weighted they are towards the caster at even stats. I know this isn't new but it's just an opportunity to bring it up again.
NINEVAH1
BINU
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 12:04 PM CST
ELEC:
>>But WMs have how many survival boosts to make survivals livable for them or ways to negate the survival skillset?
We have 2 survival boosts that I can think of. Swirling winds for evasion, and rising mists for stealth. Rising mists boosts stealth for everyone in the room though, so it's not viable when fighting against a stealth guild.
ARMIFER:
>>Bear in mind this isn't a new form of debilitation, nor did SvS weighting change. Moon Mages have been able to do it nearly forever, seemingly without problem, so we need to isolate what exactly has been added to the formula here which makes it appear to be a problem now.
The only thing that's been added is that it's WMs who have a new spell and everyone seems to have an issue with it.
Are the Cleric boards this bad? They seem to have more than just a couple of spells that are very strong, and unique.
>>But WMs have how many survival boosts to make survivals livable for them or ways to negate the survival skillset?
We have 2 survival boosts that I can think of. Swirling winds for evasion, and rising mists for stealth. Rising mists boosts stealth for everyone in the room though, so it's not viable when fighting against a stealth guild.
ARMIFER:
>>Bear in mind this isn't a new form of debilitation, nor did SvS weighting change. Moon Mages have been able to do it nearly forever, seemingly without problem, so we need to isolate what exactly has been added to the formula here which makes it appear to be a problem now.
The only thing that's been added is that it's WMs who have a new spell and everyone seems to have an issue with it.
Are the Cleric boards this bad? They seem to have more than just a couple of spells that are very strong, and unique.
BADGOPHER
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 12:08 PM CST
As someone who doesn't PvP, and doesn't have high level characters in either guild (but does have a couple of noobies!), I thought I'd just compare MB (the MM version of this effect) with EE.
EE: cycle
MB: single cast
EE: AoE
MB: single target
EE: Advanced
MB: Esoteric
EE: magic/fort
MB: mind/will
EE: 5 mana per 16 seconds (roughly 20 per minute)
MB: 30 per cast (I'll average 2 per minute because it's a battle spell but the other target won't likely sit still)
EE: 3 slots
MB: 5 slots
I'm not sure EE is an advanced, I thought it was an esoteric, but that's what the wiki says.
In general, we can see that EE has a bigger effect, for grossly less investment, and is impossible to dispel otherwise prevent the casting of, short of locking the caster down entirely (which posters describe as hard than just killing them), will probably cost less per-minute than MB. It also passively has a pretty good chance of pulling someone out of hiding depending on where they are in paralysis.
The cost is that it consumes your cyclic slot.
I would argue that if MB did this, we'd be having this exact conversation. EE just seems really cheap and powerful, for minimal cost. Perhaps if the eddy didn't kick in until the target was in melee?
EE: cycle
MB: single cast
EE: AoE
MB: single target
EE: Advanced
MB: Esoteric
EE: magic/fort
MB: mind/will
EE: 5 mana per 16 seconds (roughly 20 per minute)
MB: 30 per cast (I'll average 2 per minute because it's a battle spell but the other target won't likely sit still)
EE: 3 slots
MB: 5 slots
I'm not sure EE is an advanced, I thought it was an esoteric, but that's what the wiki says.
In general, we can see that EE has a bigger effect, for grossly less investment, and is impossible to dispel otherwise prevent the casting of, short of locking the caster down entirely (which posters describe as hard than just killing them), will probably cost less per-minute than MB. It also passively has a pretty good chance of pulling someone out of hiding depending on where they are in paralysis.
The cost is that it consumes your cyclic slot.
I would argue that if MB did this, we'd be having this exact conversation. EE just seems really cheap and powerful, for minimal cost. Perhaps if the eddy didn't kick in until the target was in melee?
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 12:10 PM CST
I can empathize with the issue re: Cyclic. I'm not sure Cyclics really should be immune to dispellation and that can bear some reexamination.
I'll think some more and talk with Raesh and Javac about nerve damage stacking. We don't do that with MB and it's something that should probably change in either MB or EE, whichever way we decide to go.
SvS weighting I make no guarantees about. The formulas are simply enough to change but that's pretty much the epitome of butterfly wings causing hurricanes.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
I'll think some more and talk with Raesh and Javac about nerve damage stacking. We don't do that with MB and it's something that should probably change in either MB or EE, whichever way we decide to go.
SvS weighting I make no guarantees about. The formulas are simply enough to change but that's pretty much the epitome of butterfly wings causing hurricanes.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
BENNETTJ13
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 12:13 PM CST
Complaining about terts is silly. Just because it was harder then than now, doesn't mean now should change. As a character Elec is far more "now" than "then" as far as training goes. The bulk of his skill was gained in new DR. So... my highest skill (perception) is 250 ranks higher than the highest skills in both my tert skillsets (shield and inner magic). Terts are not that hard to train. My top secondary is 100 ranks behind but is a mastery, if you look at actual weapons... it's LOWER than my terts. Complaining about Perc is... horribly silly.
I'm not saying you shouldn't get fancy do-dads. I'm saying that this check is too much. It has nothing to do with the tables turning. I already have the deck stacked against me on stealth checks. Sadly... it seems that's by design. I too spent several years PvPing... I used to teach how-to classes for thieves, and while stealth was different then, you seem to forget that was a time when the entire game was different. Hell, our abilities didn't go past 56th until the khri rewrite. old ambush slash WAS OP, and stupid. In the here and now of DR, similar spells like MB aren't SO bad. This spell just seems out of whack.
Playing against a WM is always chancy. Unless you completely outclass them, you have to worry about them spamming IP, or Rimefang, or the scythe thing I forget the name of, or whether or not they have their barriers up which completely neuter BS. You have abilities like this already. So I don't know. In this DR, you have the ability to use how many different spells to boost perc? And then there's WATCH, the completely mechanical work around that doesn't even care about skill.
I'm just asking you to be objective. Blatant coming to kill someone? Whoever is unaware is at a disadvantage. I'm talking about sparring here. You are buffed, I am buffed... we SHOULD be fairly even if skills are close. Instead, this unlevels that playing field. That's my opinion, and that's why I lobby for the change.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
I'm not saying you shouldn't get fancy do-dads. I'm saying that this check is too much. It has nothing to do with the tables turning. I already have the deck stacked against me on stealth checks. Sadly... it seems that's by design. I too spent several years PvPing... I used to teach how-to classes for thieves, and while stealth was different then, you seem to forget that was a time when the entire game was different. Hell, our abilities didn't go past 56th until the khri rewrite. old ambush slash WAS OP, and stupid. In the here and now of DR, similar spells like MB aren't SO bad. This spell just seems out of whack.
Playing against a WM is always chancy. Unless you completely outclass them, you have to worry about them spamming IP, or Rimefang, or the scythe thing I forget the name of, or whether or not they have their barriers up which completely neuter BS. You have abilities like this already. So I don't know. In this DR, you have the ability to use how many different spells to boost perc? And then there's WATCH, the completely mechanical work around that doesn't even care about skill.
I'm just asking you to be objective. Blatant coming to kill someone? Whoever is unaware is at a disadvantage. I'm talking about sparring here. You are buffed, I am buffed... we SHOULD be fairly even if skills are close. Instead, this unlevels that playing field. That's my opinion, and that's why I lobby for the change.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
NINEVAH1
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 12:14 PM CST
>>Are the Cleric boards this bad? They seem to have more than just a couple of spells that are very strong, and unique.
Clerics are by far worse when it comes to unbalanced spells, but at this point it's become a dead horse and no one behind the scene's is willing to nerf them in the same way other guilds have been. I could go on a much longer rant about SA and the Cleric spell book as a whole, but no one would pay attention.
Clerics are by far worse when it comes to unbalanced spells, but at this point it's become a dead horse and no one behind the scene's is willing to nerf them in the same way other guilds have been. I could go on a much longer rant about SA and the Cleric spell book as a whole, but no one would pay attention.
BENNETTJ13
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 12:15 PM CST
Thank you Armifer.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 12:16 PM CST
>>Clerics are by far worse when it comes to unbalanced spells, but at this point it's become a dead horse and no one behind the scene's is willing to nerf them in the same way other guilds have been. I could go on a much longer rant about SA and the Cleric spell book as a whole, but no one would pay attention.
I am totally paying attention, and if you want to have a conversation about it somewhere I will read it, I am just not acting with the swiftness that I normally do. Clerics have a number of problems and I want to make sure I nerf the right ones when it comes time to deploy the nerf bat.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
I am totally paying attention, and if you want to have a conversation about it somewhere I will read it, I am just not acting with the swiftness that I normally do. Clerics have a number of problems and I want to make sure I nerf the right ones when it comes time to deploy the nerf bat.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
NINEVAH1
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 12:25 PM CST
>>I can empathize with the issue re: Cyclic. I'm not sure Cyclics really should be immune to dispellation and that can bear some reexamination.
Thank you. Please consider non-magical ways (status effects, low concetration) to dispel cyclics when the time comes, too. I feel that anything that keeps you from casting/prepping a spell or anything that makes you lose a prepped spell should be able to dispel a cyclic, too.
>>I'll think some more and talk with Raesh and Javac about nerve damage stacking. We don't do that with MB and it's something that should probably change in either MB or EE, whichever way we decide to go.
Fair enough. I'm on the side of non-stacking nerve damage. Make it based on how much you win the contest by IMO.
>>SvS weighting I make no guarantees about. The formulas are simply enough to change but that's pretty much the epitome of butterfly wings causing hurricanes.
I understand this completely and didn't really have any expectations that this would chance. It's just a long time complaint I've had that has compounded the complaints of this spell.
Thank you. Please consider non-magical ways (status effects, low concetration) to dispel cyclics when the time comes, too. I feel that anything that keeps you from casting/prepping a spell or anything that makes you lose a prepped spell should be able to dispel a cyclic, too.
>>I'll think some more and talk with Raesh and Javac about nerve damage stacking. We don't do that with MB and it's something that should probably change in either MB or EE, whichever way we decide to go.
Fair enough. I'm on the side of non-stacking nerve damage. Make it based on how much you win the contest by IMO.
>>SvS weighting I make no guarantees about. The formulas are simply enough to change but that's pretty much the epitome of butterfly wings causing hurricanes.
I understand this completely and didn't really have any expectations that this would chance. It's just a long time complaint I've had that has compounded the complaints of this spell.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 12:32 PM CST
>>Thank you. Please consider non-magical ways (status effects, low concetration) to dispel cyclics when the time comes, too. I feel that anything that keeps you from casting/prepping a spell or anything that makes you lose a prepped spell should be able to dispel a cyclic, too.
That makes sense, I mostly just want to make sure that...
A) We didn't have a good technical reason for doing this.
B) All the GMs that have an interest in the magic system have a say.
...before I make promises I might not be able to keep.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
That makes sense, I mostly just want to make sure that...
A) We didn't have a good technical reason for doing this.
B) All the GMs that have an interest in the magic system have a say.
...before I make promises I might not be able to keep.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
FRANKYFIGGS
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 12:35 PM CST
if you take away nerve damage stacking from EE, what would EE be?
by all means remove the nerve damage stacking, remove the unhide effect, but do make it a damaging tm spell, even to people hiding.
the main complaint i think is that it unhides hiders. it unhides hiders, what is the transverse? thats right, hiders stay hidden until they win.
i'd happily trade in SUF AEG SW for 3 area spells that hit everything hidden or unhidden in the room, even the caster.
-Munch-
by all means remove the nerve damage stacking, remove the unhide effect, but do make it a damaging tm spell, even to people hiding.
the main complaint i think is that it unhides hiders. it unhides hiders, what is the transverse? thats right, hiders stay hidden until they win.
i'd happily trade in SUF AEG SW for 3 area spells that hit everything hidden or unhidden in the room, even the caster.
-Munch-
JULIAN
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 12:46 PM CST
>>I'll think some more and talk with Raesh and Javac about nerve damage stacking. We don't do that with MB and it's something that should probably change in either MB or EE, whichever way we decide to go.<<
MB seems like a different animal in several ways.
1) Primary effect is to stun.
2) The alpha strike nerve damage is pretty nasty.
3) The nerve damage will stack after the diminshing returns period is up. It's possible to get someone to completely paralyzed over the course of several casts.
If the nerve damage didn't stack, what would EE look like? Minor nerve damage is a pretty mild debuff.
Mazrian
MB seems like a different animal in several ways.
1) Primary effect is to stun.
2) The alpha strike nerve damage is pretty nasty.
3) The nerve damage will stack after the diminshing returns period is up. It's possible to get someone to completely paralyzed over the course of several casts.
If the nerve damage didn't stack, what would EE look like? Minor nerve damage is a pretty mild debuff.
Mazrian
UNSPEAKABLEOATH
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 12:50 PM CST
I basically only play PvE, but I've found EE to be useful and very balanced for the slot cost and the cyclic opportunity cost (i.e. no FR or Rime). It's a nice, different style of debilitation spell that gives us a much-needed tool to AOE debuff.
On the PvP end, I've heard years of anecdotal evidence that Warmages just flat lose to stealthers unless the stealthers make a mistake due to tert survival woes. Giving us an opportunity to partially mitigate and level the playing field (by paying three spell slots) is justified, in my opinion.
I don't think that EE is the end of the world for PvP, but any changes to the way nerve damage is working on the spell would impact the PvE end of things, which endangers the spell being worth the value.
I'm just glad it's not another flavor of TM damager. We have a great deal of redundant spells in our books currently, combined with a few spells that either outright do almost nothing (YS) or have pretty corner-case utility (PW and AB, for example). Gods forbid we have an decent spell that is worth the points and actually does something different.
Voyle
On the PvP end, I've heard years of anecdotal evidence that Warmages just flat lose to stealthers unless the stealthers make a mistake due to tert survival woes. Giving us an opportunity to partially mitigate and level the playing field (by paying three spell slots) is justified, in my opinion.
I don't think that EE is the end of the world for PvP, but any changes to the way nerve damage is working on the spell would impact the PvE end of things, which endangers the spell being worth the value.
I'm just glad it's not another flavor of TM damager. We have a great deal of redundant spells in our books currently, combined with a few spells that either outright do almost nothing (YS) or have pretty corner-case utility (PW and AB, for example). Gods forbid we have an decent spell that is worth the points and actually does something different.
Voyle
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 12:50 PM CST
>>If the nerve damage didn't stack, what would EE look like? Minor nerve damage is a pretty mild debuff.
I made it sound like a binary "MB way or EE way" decision, but really this is a much more fluid issue where we have two "competing" nerve damage models and we probably want to unify them in some way that makes sense.
For example, nerve stacking might stay but be reduced, or nerve stacking might leave but the first hit might improve.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
I made it sound like a binary "MB way or EE way" decision, but really this is a much more fluid issue where we have two "competing" nerve damage models and we probably want to unify them in some way that makes sense.
For example, nerve stacking might stay but be reduced, or nerve stacking might leave but the first hit might improve.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
JULIAN
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 12:53 PM CST
>>That makes sense, I mostly just want to make sure that...
A) We didn't have a good technical reason for doing this.
B) All the GMs that have an interest in the magic system have a say.
...before I make promises I might not be able to keep.<<
Food for thought...
Khri and the Barb stuff that can't be dispelled are also pretty annoying for the same reasons we're talking about with cyclics.
IIRC their abilities being undispellable was supposed to be balanced by them not being able to dispel, or that's what I remember from some years back.
Mazrian
A) We didn't have a good technical reason for doing this.
B) All the GMs that have an interest in the magic system have a say.
...before I make promises I might not be able to keep.<<
Food for thought...
Khri and the Barb stuff that can't be dispelled are also pretty annoying for the same reasons we're talking about with cyclics.
IIRC their abilities being undispellable was supposed to be balanced by them not being able to dispel, or that's what I remember from some years back.
Mazrian
FRANKYFIGGS
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 12:54 PM CST
if the nerve damage doesn't stack there would be no point in it being a cyclic spell.
there is one missile ranged cyclic for warmies, and it can't be cast indoors.
-Munch-
there is one missile ranged cyclic for warmies, and it can't be cast indoors.
-Munch-
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 01:30 PM CST
>Khri and the Barb stuff that can't be dispelled are also pretty annoying for the same reasons we're talking about with cyclics.
Yes, but those debuffs only last a set length of time before dropping. Nerve damage does not.
>if you take away nerve damage stacking from EE, what would EE be?
It could change to causing a debuff like 'electrified' that acts as a str/agl/ref debuff, or maybe a general OF/DF debuff, etc, etc.
JULIAN
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 01:31 PM CST
>>I made it sound like a binary "MB way or EE way" decision, but really this is a much more fluid issue where we have two "competing" nerve damage models and we probably want to unify them in some way that makes sense.<<
That makes sense.
I think tweaking the nerve damage would fundamentally change EE as a spell. Right now the primary benefit is being able to stack up to the complete paralysis. In PvE that's the useful component of the spell because it's rare to be hunting a stealth creature you can't see once it engages (or absorb an ambush from if you don't spot it in time).
Likewise in PvP, the generally useful feature is the debuff from nerve damage. Unhiding is good in certain niche situations. Nerfing the nerve damage done would narrow the spell's utility considerably. Which could be ok if the anti-stealth were better, IMO. For instance, if being revealed by the spell prevented immediate rehiding (You're still twitching too badly to hide or something for five or six seconds). Like...MB packages a ton of nerve damage with a good strong primary effect. In EE's case the nerve damage seems to be the primary, so maybe the secondary could get better if that gets nerfed?
Mazrian
That makes sense.
I think tweaking the nerve damage would fundamentally change EE as a spell. Right now the primary benefit is being able to stack up to the complete paralysis. In PvE that's the useful component of the spell because it's rare to be hunting a stealth creature you can't see once it engages (or absorb an ambush from if you don't spot it in time).
Likewise in PvP, the generally useful feature is the debuff from nerve damage. Unhiding is good in certain niche situations. Nerfing the nerve damage done would narrow the spell's utility considerably. Which could be ok if the anti-stealth were better, IMO. For instance, if being revealed by the spell prevented immediate rehiding (You're still twitching too badly to hide or something for five or six seconds). Like...MB packages a ton of nerve damage with a good strong primary effect. In EE's case the nerve damage seems to be the primary, so maybe the secondary could get better if that gets nerfed?
Mazrian
JULIAN
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 01:33 PM CST
>>Yes, but those debuffs only last a set length of time before dropping. Nerve damage does not.
I mean the Wards and other effects. Anaogously to any cyclic, they go up and stay up and there's not nothing to be done about it. If it's a problem for cyclics it's surely a problem for those.
Mazrian
THAYET
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 01:42 PM CST
>> Moon Mages have been able to do it nearly forever, seemingly without problem, so we need to isolate what exactly has been added to the formula here which makes it appear to be a problem now.
Nerve damage stacking, the relative utility of cyclics, and lack of diminishing returns has been mentioned, but another thing is that EE is very cheap compared to MB as well. IMO, EE costs way, way too little for what it does relative to other disablers of its caliber.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Nerve damage stacking, the relative utility of cyclics, and lack of diminishing returns has been mentioned, but another thing is that EE is very cheap compared to MB as well. IMO, EE costs way, way too little for what it does relative to other disablers of its caliber.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 01:51 PM CST
>I mean the Wards and other effects. Anaogously to any cyclic, they go up and stay up and there's not nothing to be done about it. If it's a problem for cyclics it's surely a problem for those.
Well, that only really applies to Barbs/Thieves. WB/Rend/Dispel can be used to pull Wards and Augs from MUs, though yeah, it doesn't apply to cyclics.
>Right now the primary benefit is being able to stack up to the complete paralysis.
Personally, based on minimal testing, I think this is overpowered, and would rather see 'complete paralysis' replaced with 'a specific but standard debuff'. As THAYET points out also, the amount of mana invested to completely paralyze someone is rather low.
JULIAN
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 01:55 PM CST
>>Complaining about terts is silly. Just because it was harder then than now, doesn't mean now should change. As a character Elec is far more "now" than "then" as far as training goes. The bulk of his skill was gained in new DR. So... my highest skill (perception) is 250 ranks higher than the highest skills in both my tert skillsets (shield and inner magic). Terts are not that hard to train. My top secondary is 100 ranks behind but is a mastery, if you look at actual weapons... it's LOWER than my terts. Complaining about Perc is... horribly silly. <<
It's not about hard or easy, it's about Primary vs Tertiary learning rates. There's no sense in which you can "catch up" or "work harder" at terts and make up the gap. You can train in a sub-optimal way and end up with smaller disparities or terts higher than other things, but that's nerfing yourself to get to distributions that are just worse than what you could have achieved otherwise.
>>Playing against a WM is always chancy. Unless you completely outclass them, you have to worry about them spamming IP, or Rimefang, or the scythe thing I forget the name of, or whether or not they have their barriers up which completely neuter BS. You have abilities like this already. So I don't know. In this DR, you have the ability to use how many different spells to boost perc? <<
WMs have no native damage barriers except Ethereal Shield, which works vs Elemental only.
>>I'm talking about sparring here. You are buffed, I am buffed... we SHOULD be fairly even if skills are close. Instead, this unlevels that playing field. That's my opinion, and that's why I lobby for the change.<<
Talking about Sparring.
If you're buffed and I'm buffed and we have equal time in and have both trained optimally, I as the WM have to figure out how to beat you the Thief and if I can't come through with tight timing and you don't make big mistakes I'm going to lose. After enough training time there is no way for me to win a stealth contest against you - I have to player skill around that and it makes my position a lot harder. Even if I hypothetically have a perc boost. Thief buffs + ranks are going to cancel that out.
I wonder if we could get some people to commit to tellexp and tellstating their characteristics and doing some spars. Often the people we think are even with us actually outclass us instead.
Mazrian
It's not about hard or easy, it's about Primary vs Tertiary learning rates. There's no sense in which you can "catch up" or "work harder" at terts and make up the gap. You can train in a sub-optimal way and end up with smaller disparities or terts higher than other things, but that's nerfing yourself to get to distributions that are just worse than what you could have achieved otherwise.
>>Playing against a WM is always chancy. Unless you completely outclass them, you have to worry about them spamming IP, or Rimefang, or the scythe thing I forget the name of, or whether or not they have their barriers up which completely neuter BS. You have abilities like this already. So I don't know. In this DR, you have the ability to use how many different spells to boost perc? <<
WMs have no native damage barriers except Ethereal Shield, which works vs Elemental only.
>>I'm talking about sparring here. You are buffed, I am buffed... we SHOULD be fairly even if skills are close. Instead, this unlevels that playing field. That's my opinion, and that's why I lobby for the change.<<
Talking about Sparring.
If you're buffed and I'm buffed and we have equal time in and have both trained optimally, I as the WM have to figure out how to beat you the Thief and if I can't come through with tight timing and you don't make big mistakes I'm going to lose. After enough training time there is no way for me to win a stealth contest against you - I have to player skill around that and it makes my position a lot harder. Even if I hypothetically have a perc boost. Thief buffs + ranks are going to cancel that out.
I wonder if we could get some people to commit to tellexp and tellstating their characteristics and doing some spars. Often the people we think are even with us actually outclass us instead.
Mazrian
JULIAN
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 02:01 PM CST
>>Personally, based on minimal testing, I think this is overpowered, and would rather see 'complete paralysis' replaced with 'a specific but standard debuff'. As THAYET points out also, the amount of mana invested to completely paralyze someone is rather low.<<
It's... call it 2 minutes of pulses so 240 mana assuming the mage is casting at the cap and maxing out his win on the SvS contest. A lot longer, presumably, and more costly, if the contest is more even. During that time the target can do other things including walking out of the room and killing the Warmage. Based on my testing nerve damage is a modest but noticable debuff.
Armifir: Would you mind sharing the size of the penalties we're talking about with complete paralysis? I'm willing to be wrong but it does't seem like a huge debuff.
Mazrian
It's... call it 2 minutes of pulses so 240 mana assuming the mage is casting at the cap and maxing out his win on the SvS contest. A lot longer, presumably, and more costly, if the contest is more even. During that time the target can do other things including walking out of the room and killing the Warmage. Based on my testing nerve damage is a modest but noticable debuff.
Armifir: Would you mind sharing the size of the penalties we're talking about with complete paralysis? I'm willing to be wrong but it does't seem like a huge debuff.
Mazrian
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 02:20 PM CST
I once allowed a thief to participate in a WM spar night and it was the most boring event I ever organized.
Your search-fu is pig dung!
Your search-fu is pig dung!
BADGOPHER
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 02:26 PM CST
>Khri and the Barb stuff that can't be dispelled are also pretty annoying for the same reasons we're talking about with cyclics.
Actually, do the debilitation khri stop if you get stunned? I've never been using one when that happened.
Actually, do the debilitation khri stop if you get stunned? I've never been using one when that happened.
BINU
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 02:35 PM CST
>>Nerve damage stacking, the relative utility of cyclics, and lack of diminishing returns has been mentioned, but another thing is that EE is very cheap compared to MB as well. IMO, EE costs way, way too little for what it does relative to other disablers of its caliber.
MB does more than just nerve damage.
Honestly, tweak it up to a 40 mana cyclic, it doesn't affect me. What it will do though, is make it far harder for the target audience of the spell. Javac specifically told us that it was specifically meant for mages in the late beginning to mid career. I hope I'm remembering that correctly.
I would drop the vast majority of the WM spellbook if the spells weren't required for the few good ones we actually have left.
Javac, thank you for developing this spell. It's nice to see positive development for the guild. I hope all of the whining going on doesn't cause you to feel that what you've done is any less appreciated. I appreciate the time you put into this and the event to release it, very much.
MB does more than just nerve damage.
Honestly, tweak it up to a 40 mana cyclic, it doesn't affect me. What it will do though, is make it far harder for the target audience of the spell. Javac specifically told us that it was specifically meant for mages in the late beginning to mid career. I hope I'm remembering that correctly.
I would drop the vast majority of the WM spellbook if the spells weren't required for the few good ones we actually have left.
Javac, thank you for developing this spell. It's nice to see positive development for the guild. I hope all of the whining going on doesn't cause you to feel that what you've done is any less appreciated. I appreciate the time you put into this and the event to release it, very much.
WILLARDR
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 02:47 PM CST
> I can empathize with the issue re: Cyclic. I'm not sure Cyclics really should be immune to dispellation and that can bear some reexamination.
One thought that came to mind immediately when reading this was what if cyclics acted as if the do currently, but there were ways to make the next pulse simply not happen.
> I'll think some more and talk with Raesh and Javac about nerve damage stacking. We don't do that with MB and it's something that should probably change in either MB or EE
I pointed out earlier that I feel nerve damage does very little vs casters when someone is able to cap their spells. For lack of better; stancing a casters potency to 130% should not be able to overcome the effects of full paralysis. Very bad analogy here but this feels similar to watch vs stealth to me and I really don't like watch.
Nerve damage vs casting does not appear on the surface to scale all that well. Perhaps that is something that could be looked into. If a caster can cap a spell at 100 then with complete paralysis and stanced to 130% potency still get the spell off at 86 prep instead of 100 this leaves very little that nerve damage actually does on the upper end. However take a level 10 character that can only prep to 10 or so then offset that with complete paralysis and they get shut down.
Nerve damage vs casting might require more dynamic scaling if it is to be felt similar across the board. A simular argument could go for nerve damage vs stealth too.
> SvS weighting I make no guarantees about.
I am not sure that SvS weighting is the real issue.
I see lots of times, mainly because I skewers most of my toons, that most players either don't understand SvS contests or get mad and rant when dominated by another character because of the results of an SvS contest. When I refer to domination in reference to SvS I typically think of 20+ differences in stats.
One thought that came to mind immediately when reading this was what if cyclics acted as if the do currently, but there were ways to make the next pulse simply not happen.
> I'll think some more and talk with Raesh and Javac about nerve damage stacking. We don't do that with MB and it's something that should probably change in either MB or EE
I pointed out earlier that I feel nerve damage does very little vs casters when someone is able to cap their spells. For lack of better; stancing a casters potency to 130% should not be able to overcome the effects of full paralysis. Very bad analogy here but this feels similar to watch vs stealth to me and I really don't like watch.
Nerve damage vs casting does not appear on the surface to scale all that well. Perhaps that is something that could be looked into. If a caster can cap a spell at 100 then with complete paralysis and stanced to 130% potency still get the spell off at 86 prep instead of 100 this leaves very little that nerve damage actually does on the upper end. However take a level 10 character that can only prep to 10 or so then offset that with complete paralysis and they get shut down.
Nerve damage vs casting might require more dynamic scaling if it is to be felt similar across the board. A simular argument could go for nerve damage vs stealth too.
> SvS weighting I make no guarantees about.
I am not sure that SvS weighting is the real issue.
I see lots of times, mainly because I skewers most of my toons, that most players either don't understand SvS contests or get mad and rant when dominated by another character because of the results of an SvS contest. When I refer to domination in reference to SvS I typically think of 20+ differences in stats.
NINEVAH1
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 02:48 PM CST
>>
I am totally paying attention, and if you want to have a conversation about it somewhere I will read it, I am just not acting with the swiftness that I normally do. Clerics have a number of problems and I want to make sure I nerf the right ones when it comes time to deploy the nerf bat
Thank you for listening. I will come up with a constructive post and either email you or post it where it is appropriate.
I am totally paying attention, and if you want to have a conversation about it somewhere I will read it, I am just not acting with the swiftness that I normally do. Clerics have a number of problems and I want to make sure I nerf the right ones when it comes time to deploy the nerf bat
Thank you for listening. I will come up with a constructive post and either email you or post it where it is appropriate.
BINU
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 02:56 PM CST
>>Nerve damage stacking, the relative utility of cyclics, and lack of diminishing returns has been mentioned, but another thing is that EE is very cheap compared to MB as well. IMO, EE costs way, way too little for what it does relative to other disablers of its caliber.
I'll test it shortly.
I'll test it shortly.
DR-RAESH
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 02:57 PM CST
I'll have to dig through the magic core to confirm - but I want to say even max nerve damage is only like a 20% penalty? That might be the physical combat penalty I'm thinking of.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
NINEVAH1
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 03:04 PM CST
I just want to say that I think EE is a cool concept for a spell and I am glad to see non-fatal damage being brought back to debilitators. I just think it needs some tweaking and it makes some other issues with magic as a whole more glaringly obvious.
Thanks to everyone for the work put into it and for listening to us.
Thanks to everyone for the work put into it and for listening to us.
BENNETTJ13
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 03:07 PM CST
x2.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
WILLARDR
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 03:19 PM CST
> The spell pulses every 16 seconds, I believe.
I have counted to 14 and 15, never put a stopwatch to it though. Very possible 16 could be it.
> I'd have to do a bunch of math I don't want to do at the moment, but I think it's somewhere between a minute and a minute and a half to hit complete paralysis if you cap winning the contest.
With a WM 100 intel, 100 wis, 50 disc against MM with 30 stam, 30 disc, 30 str it did take about a minute or so to get to full paralysis.
I did not stopwatch or count. This is only how it felt.
> These numbers don't seem unreasonable to me, given that they require you to win the contest by a lot. If you're just barely winning the contest, it's going to take you forever.
My first example earlier in this thread was with the above skewered contest and is an extremely unfair one at that.
I have counted to 14 and 15, never put a stopwatch to it though. Very possible 16 could be it.
> I'd have to do a bunch of math I don't want to do at the moment, but I think it's somewhere between a minute and a minute and a half to hit complete paralysis if you cap winning the contest.
With a WM 100 intel, 100 wis, 50 disc against MM with 30 stam, 30 disc, 30 str it did take about a minute or so to get to full paralysis.
I did not stopwatch or count. This is only how it felt.
> These numbers don't seem unreasonable to me, given that they require you to win the contest by a lot. If you're just barely winning the contest, it's going to take you forever.
My first example earlier in this thread was with the above skewered contest and is an extremely unfair one at that.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 03:21 PM CST
Is it 20% to all physical combat stuff though? That's a huge penalty. Akin to an of/df debuff that also hits other things.
WILTONQU
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 03:32 PM CST
<<I am totally paying attention, and if you want to have a conversation about it somewhere I will read it, I am just not acting with the swiftness that I normally do. Clerics have a number of problems and I want to make sure I nerf the right ones when it comes time to deploy the nerf bat..>>
I have to agree the spirit stuff with clerics is a bit over powered.... this is from a die hard CLERIC PRIME PLAYER... no real defense for other guilds against it and forced departs to boot... In all fairness i can see where it needs a hard look....
The feeble old swamp shaman
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 04:17 PM CST
I think the Cleric toolkit is simply too comprehensive. It's not enough that Clerics do a few things no other guild does, they do a bunch of other things extremely well too.
DR-RAESH
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 04:24 PM CST
>>Is it 20% to all physical combat stuff though?
Defenses are what I was talking about - I don't know the rest of combat enough to intelligently comment. That just happens to be a slice I found and fixed while chasing down a bug awhile back.
And while 20% sounds bad it's really actually quite mild for complete paralysis when you know the other numbers floating around and what it does (And more importantly - does not) stack with. My gut feeling is nerve damage should be significantly more penalizing.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
Defenses are what I was talking about - I don't know the rest of combat enough to intelligently comment. That just happens to be a slice I found and fixed while chasing down a bug awhile back.
And while 20% sounds bad it's really actually quite mild for complete paralysis when you know the other numbers floating around and what it does (And more importantly - does not) stack with. My gut feeling is nerve damage should be significantly more penalizing.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
WILTONQU
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 04:31 PM CST
nerve damage may not be brutal on non magic users but the person depends on magic, it is pretty harsh.... it is not even like a curse where it wears off, but it you have to go get it healed
FRANKYFIGGS
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 04:58 PM CST
like you have to go get healed from an exploded podypart after a backstab? pshaw
-Munch-
-Munch-
WILLARDR
Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density
01/19/2016 05:02 PM CST
> I'm saying that this check is too much. It has nothing to do with the tables turning. I already have the deck stacked against me on stealth checks. Sadly... it seems that's by design.
Thieves lost access to a strength buff in 3.x
This is not the thieves suggestion folder and it has been mentioned over there several times but giving thieves access to a strength buff would at least give them a means to buff two stats out of the fortitude contest. This would go a long way toward alleviating some concerns about the SvS contest with regards to fortitude. I do find it amusing that as long as a fortitude contest did not seem to effect stealth much that this has never really been talked about. It's the AOE part that creates for much of this though and the best defense is higher fortitude save stats currently. I do understand what you are getting at though.
It was mentioned with thief 3.x that the buff to strength was not very much so they really didn't think it would be a big deal to just do away with it along with the fact that focus just did too much already. The buff to strength for thieves however did not cap at 4 from focus, it could be combined to get up to 20. This was a huge loss for the guild.
I was using both speed and spar simultaneously in 2.0 on my thief. I don't have my notes handy but the key was focus + speed to get to +20 strenth. I can see how not being within SOI this would not be allowed in 3.0 but +15 is much better than +0.
An ability to buff fortitude saves in particular could be interesting. Imagine something like an ambush maneuver granting a several second buff to fortitude saves kind of thing. Think of slash, stun and clout. Slash helping vs reflex saves, stun helping out vs fortitude and clout helping out vs willpower. Haven't thought this through but enjoyed the initial thought and decided to share.
Thieves lost access to a strength buff in 3.x
This is not the thieves suggestion folder and it has been mentioned over there several times but giving thieves access to a strength buff would at least give them a means to buff two stats out of the fortitude contest. This would go a long way toward alleviating some concerns about the SvS contest with regards to fortitude. I do find it amusing that as long as a fortitude contest did not seem to effect stealth much that this has never really been talked about. It's the AOE part that creates for much of this though and the best defense is higher fortitude save stats currently. I do understand what you are getting at though.
It was mentioned with thief 3.x that the buff to strength was not very much so they really didn't think it would be a big deal to just do away with it along with the fact that focus just did too much already. The buff to strength for thieves however did not cap at 4 from focus, it could be combined to get up to 20. This was a huge loss for the guild.
I was using both speed and spar simultaneously in 2.0 on my thief. I don't have my notes handy but the key was focus + speed to get to +20 strenth. I can see how not being within SOI this would not be allowed in 3.0 but +15 is much better than +0.
An ability to buff fortitude saves in particular could be interesting. Imagine something like an ambush maneuver granting a several second buff to fortitude saves kind of thing. Think of slash, stun and clout. Slash helping vs reflex saves, stun helping out vs fortitude and clout helping out vs willpower. Haven't thought this through but enjoyed the initial thought and decided to share.
