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<<Like I said earlier... it just doesn't seem too greatly thought out initially.>>
Well...I guess I just disagree and not just because I had anything to do with the new skill based title system. That part is irrelevant.
The main reason its like this is to allow you all to pick a pretend guild and at least ATTEMPT to fit in by using the titles and advance up the ranks of the titles at a semi-equivalant rate as someone else of your pretend guild, but that's the responsibility of the THIEF, not the title system.
If you choose to select a title that your actions can't back up (ie pick a Barbarian title for a Barb 30 circles higher than you simply because you chose to overtrain Charisma to unlock more titles), then that's basically writing a check with your mouth that your butt can't cash and its going to be clear to everyone you aren't what you say you are when you are wearing your big boy pants and can't hang with the big boys on the corner and pick on the same critters they do.
Now...the fact that you can currently swap from various titles immediately and that it would cause confusion and questions when you change from Fire Lion to Frostbitten is because, as a thief pretending to be of a guild you are not, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING THAT. Again, this is not a fault of the system, this is the fault of the thief not having common sense enough to keep a low profile.
Originally (and again, soon enough), you'll pick your pretend guild and that will be it and titles probably won't be swappable at will. We turned that off when the new system came out so that people would be able to see their options. We just haven't turned it back on yet.
Solomon
<<it does seem to cheapen titles for other guilds. Fire Lion takes a huge amount of preplanning and dedication to achieve. However, if a Thief has whatever charisma req it requires (25 or 30) they have access to it.>>
PS...Fire Lion doesn't even appear to be selectable as a Pretend Title, nor does Frostbitten.
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
SIMU-SOLOMON
BOBBRYAN
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/06/2006 03:30 PM CDT
>>Now...the fact that you can currently swap from various titles immediately and that it would cause confusion and questions when you change from Fire Lion to Frostbitten is because, as a thief pretending to be of a guild you are not, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING THAT. Again, this is not a fault of the system, this is the fault of the thief not having common sense enough to keep a low profile.<<
I agree with that. I guess I was arguing from the front that... it really kinda cheapens the war mage titles in this case. There are what? 5 War Mages that can wear Fire Lion? Maybe 10? But pretty much any Thief over a certain circle can wear it.
I agree that it's up to the Thief to blend in, and if he really wanted to blend in, he wouldn't put something like Fire Lion up. But, for those that don't really care about blending in, Thieves get the title far easier than War Mages.
I guess I would just be really annoyed if War Mages had access to a few of our titles and had drastically easier reqs to wear them than we do.
-Wighten
I agree with that. I guess I was arguing from the front that... it really kinda cheapens the war mage titles in this case. There are what? 5 War Mages that can wear Fire Lion? Maybe 10? But pretty much any Thief over a certain circle can wear it.
I agree that it's up to the Thief to blend in, and if he really wanted to blend in, he wouldn't put something like Fire Lion up. But, for those that don't really care about blending in, Thieves get the title far easier than War Mages.
I guess I would just be really annoyed if War Mages had access to a few of our titles and had drastically easier reqs to wear them than we do.
-Wighten
VROTSOSJ
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/06/2006 03:36 PM CDT
I know lots of people disagree but I think a thief should be able to fake any title they want (if they meet requirements that a thief can meet) and be able to passively avoid outing (perc health, shaking hands, perc <person> etc... but not roaring like a barb since this is a thief initiated action).
I don't know so much about using charisma in place of abilities but that is what was chosen and it's not like thieves get to pick and choose the titles they get. e.g. Since roars at least start at 5th circle and any roar is available at 35th but have the progression chosen for them instead of being able to go straight for say...heartbreaker as a barb does.
I think the fake title thing does need some more work in addition to the whole x% skill issue which I've listed in bullets, yay!, well I lied so you get hyphens and there are only two points:
- If you meet the regular requirements that should automatically qualify you for the fake title
- If there is a charisma requirement, I think a certain amount of circles should work in lieu of that requirement (this one might be tricky)
To explain the second point a bit better...we have thief Joebob at 150th circle with 25 charisma that can't fake Dragon Fighter (60th circle barb). I think some sort of scale of charisma -> circle should be established through which circling could qualify you for the title, albeit at a slower rate.
So lets say our easy scale says for each circle, you have .4 charisma.
Under this system Dragon Fighter can be gained when faking barb and having 30 charisma or when faking barb and being 75th circle. This means while the title is harder to gain just from circles, since you can't combine stat charisma and the charisma level due from circling, the title can be achieved faster through charisma training but is still available eventually unless it is 25 circles under the cap in which case only charisma can reach those titles.
I am --- Navak
I don't know so much about using charisma in place of abilities but that is what was chosen and it's not like thieves get to pick and choose the titles they get. e.g. Since roars at least start at 5th circle and any roar is available at 35th but have the progression chosen for them instead of being able to go straight for say...heartbreaker as a barb does.
I think the fake title thing does need some more work in addition to the whole x% skill issue which I've listed in bullets, yay!, well I lied so you get hyphens and there are only two points:
- If you meet the regular requirements that should automatically qualify you for the fake title
- If there is a charisma requirement, I think a certain amount of circles should work in lieu of that requirement (this one might be tricky)
To explain the second point a bit better...we have thief Joebob at 150th circle with 25 charisma that can't fake Dragon Fighter (60th circle barb). I think some sort of scale of charisma -> circle should be established through which circling could qualify you for the title, albeit at a slower rate.
So lets say our easy scale says for each circle, you have .4 charisma.
Under this system Dragon Fighter can be gained when faking barb and having 30 charisma or when faking barb and being 75th circle. This means while the title is harder to gain just from circles, since you can't combine stat charisma and the charisma level due from circling, the title can be achieved faster through charisma training but is still available eventually unless it is 25 circles under the cap in which case only charisma can reach those titles.
I am --- Navak
BOBBRYAN
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/06/2006 03:48 PM CDT
One thing that might fix it, is put in an even higher charisma req for titles that require NOT having something.
So you could fake Pyromancer a lot easier than Fire Lion. Because, specifically not training something indicates a much harder title to get for the guild in question.
Also, this brings up Soul State requirement titles which I feel should be opened back up for a higher charisma req. If we can fake having Marshal Order, I don't see why we couldn't pretend to be a Fallen title.
Also.. we were told certain Survival and Astrology titles would be reevaluated. Thieves currently do not get access to Guild only titles that are not in Guild only folders. This I think is a bit of a cop out. No one but Moonies can have access to astrology titles, so a Thief pretending to be a moonie should have access to those as well. Same with Ranger and Scouting.
And, I still think percentages of skills is a very bad way to do it. Percentages are why combat is so messed up currently at the top ends, and we went and set a trap for ourselves to do it again.
-Wighten
So you could fake Pyromancer a lot easier than Fire Lion. Because, specifically not training something indicates a much harder title to get for the guild in question.
Also, this brings up Soul State requirement titles which I feel should be opened back up for a higher charisma req. If we can fake having Marshal Order, I don't see why we couldn't pretend to be a Fallen title.
Also.. we were told certain Survival and Astrology titles would be reevaluated. Thieves currently do not get access to Guild only titles that are not in Guild only folders. This I think is a bit of a cop out. No one but Moonies can have access to astrology titles, so a Thief pretending to be a moonie should have access to those as well. Same with Ranger and Scouting.
And, I still think percentages of skills is a very bad way to do it. Percentages are why combat is so messed up currently at the top ends, and we went and set a trap for ourselves to do it again.
-Wighten
YAMCER
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/06/2006 04:30 PM CDT
<<If there is a charisma requirement, I think a certain amount of circles should work in lieu of that requirement>>
i like this idea Navak
i also don't se it any more tricky than other titles with a XXXX or YYYY type requirement
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
i like this idea Navak
i also don't se it any more tricky than other titles with a XXXX or YYYY type requirement
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/06/2006 05:10 PM CDT
<<But pretty much any Thief over a certain circle can wear it.>>
Yup...currently any Thief over a certain circle can wear Fire Lion.
And that circle is...
999
So...no. ::chuckle::
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
Yup...currently any Thief over a certain circle can wear Fire Lion.
And that circle is...
999
So...no. ::chuckle::
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/06/2006 05:13 PM CDT
<<To explain the second point a bit better...we have thief Joebob at 150th circle with 25 charisma that can't fake Dragon Fighter (60th circle barb). I think some sort of scale of charisma -> circle should be established through which circling could qualify you for the title, albeit at a slower rate.>>
Yes, but Charisma is important (at least from a roleplaying standpoint) when it comes to being able to "pass" for something you're not.
Mechanically, yes, Charisma prolly has little to do with faking as a Barbarian. However, from an RP side of things, Charisma is quite important, which is why it was chosen.
You have to have the charm and the savoir-faire to pull it off.
Else you just look like a 12 year old in his big brother's letterman jacket.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
Yes, but Charisma is important (at least from a roleplaying standpoint) when it comes to being able to "pass" for something you're not.
Mechanically, yes, Charisma prolly has little to do with faking as a Barbarian. However, from an RP side of things, Charisma is quite important, which is why it was chosen.
You have to have the charm and the savoir-faire to pull it off.
Else you just look like a 12 year old in his big brother's letterman jacket.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
VROTSOSJ
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/06/2006 06:09 PM CDT
>>Yes, but Charisma is important (at least from a roleplaying standpoint) when it comes to being able to "pass" for something you're not.
Right, which is why I think if Charisma is what was chosen to be the check...that should be the easiest way to get a title but not the only way for fake titles.
Some kind of circle check, even if it was something like charisma requirements -1 every 10 circles (more of a compromise position in that charisma would still be required) or just circles alone would be better than it stands now.
I dunno, just the change for fake titles in some ways makes it seem more limiting to me as far as titles which require abilities, especially when those abilities (like dances or berserks) are basically granted at a certain circle.
I am --- Navak
Right, which is why I think if Charisma is what was chosen to be the check...that should be the easiest way to get a title but not the only way for fake titles.
Some kind of circle check, even if it was something like charisma requirements -1 every 10 circles (more of a compromise position in that charisma would still be required) or just circles alone would be better than it stands now.
I dunno, just the change for fake titles in some ways makes it seem more limiting to me as far as titles which require abilities, especially when those abilities (like dances or berserks) are basically granted at a certain circle.
I am --- Navak
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/06/2006 08:28 PM CDT
<<Some kind of circle check, even if it was something like charisma requirements -1 every 10 circles (more of a compromise position in that charisma would still be required) or just circles alone would be better than it stands now.>>
So you're saying that age should give a discount on the Charisma reqs?
Again, from an RP standpoint (not to mention mechancs standpoint) I'm going to have to disagree.
Age and Experience will never be a substitute (or a replacement) for Charisma.
Marlon Brando had age, experience out the wazoo, and enough "pull" to be the eccentric old...whatever...that he was.
However, none of that amounted to a hill of beans. He was horrid as Col. Kurtz (on screen and off), he was an atrocious Jor-el, and he couldn't even play a role he already pulled off several years earlier (Don Corleone) in The Freshman. Putting it in perspective, his reputation was atrocious, he had a tanked bonus, and a Charisma of 4.
He'd never be able to pass for a Barbarian to save his life.
However, look at someone like Edward Norton or Dakota Fanning. Young and inexperienced and pulling off roles much "bigger" than they "should" have been able to based on "the average".
Why?
Charisma.
Sometimes it comes with age (when you train it or are born with it)...sometimes it stays about the same (when you neglect it)....and sometimes you just lose it the more you grow old (not yet implemented*).
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
* - never will be, either
So you're saying that age should give a discount on the Charisma reqs?
Again, from an RP standpoint (not to mention mechancs standpoint) I'm going to have to disagree.
Age and Experience will never be a substitute (or a replacement) for Charisma.
Marlon Brando had age, experience out the wazoo, and enough "pull" to be the eccentric old...whatever...that he was.
However, none of that amounted to a hill of beans. He was horrid as Col. Kurtz (on screen and off), he was an atrocious Jor-el, and he couldn't even play a role he already pulled off several years earlier (Don Corleone) in The Freshman. Putting it in perspective, his reputation was atrocious, he had a tanked bonus, and a Charisma of 4.
He'd never be able to pass for a Barbarian to save his life.
However, look at someone like Edward Norton or Dakota Fanning. Young and inexperienced and pulling off roles much "bigger" than they "should" have been able to based on "the average".
Why?
Charisma.
Sometimes it comes with age (when you train it or are born with it)...sometimes it stays about the same (when you neglect it)....and sometimes you just lose it the more you grow old (not yet implemented*).
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
* - never will be, either
NKRISS
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/06/2006 08:38 PM CDT
>>So you're saying that age should give a discount on the Charisma reqs?
"Age" in this case being experience (which can only be represented as circle as there is no acting skill), where stats are talent.
As much raw talent as a four year old has, they simply won't be able to pull off a serious dramatic role.
And on the same note, even an untalented actor who had been acting for 40 years would be able to do a decent job in a simple role.
Why does it have to be one or the other?
-Teeklin
"You take people, you put them on a journey, you give them peril, you find out who they really are. If there's any kind of fiction better than that, I don't know what it is." -Joss Whedon
"Age" in this case being experience (which can only be represented as circle as there is no acting skill), where stats are talent.
As much raw talent as a four year old has, they simply won't be able to pull off a serious dramatic role.
And on the same note, even an untalented actor who had been acting for 40 years would be able to do a decent job in a simple role.
Why does it have to be one or the other?
-Teeklin
"You take people, you put them on a journey, you give them peril, you find out who they really are. If there's any kind of fiction better than that, I don't know what it is." -Joss Whedon
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/06/2006 09:03 PM CDT
<<As much raw talent as a four year old has, they simply won't be able to pull off a serious dramatic role.>>
Exactly. Which is why they don't get serious roles (or high level Barbarian titles, for that matter) when they're 4(th circle).
<<And on the same note, even an untalented actor who had been acting for 40 years would be able to do a decent job in a simple role.>>
Right...which is why he'd only have access to low level titles. He'd only be able to handle something that wouldn't require a lot of skill or panache.
Thanks for helping me make my point.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
Exactly. Which is why they don't get serious roles (or high level Barbarian titles, for that matter) when they're 4(th circle).
<<And on the same note, even an untalented actor who had been acting for 40 years would be able to do a decent job in a simple role.>>
Right...which is why he'd only have access to low level titles. He'd only be able to handle something that wouldn't require a lot of skill or panache.
Thanks for helping me make my point.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
MAJIN72
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 12:52 AM CDT
>>Actually, if anyone has any suggestions for new titles, specifically ones that are related to aspects of thiefly ventures OTHER than crime/violence (ie locksmithing type titles, as was just mentioned a couple of posts ago) now would be the time to make them.
About how long is this window of opportunity going to stay open? I'll probably be able to get a good list up as soon as I process out of the Navy (about two-three weeks from now).
The only reason it will take a while is because I won't have access to my email account for that duration and I'll need to get in contact with people who can pop 10th tier boxes (in accordance with the Locksmith Union box list) and can craft Grand Master Lockpicks consistently in order to get a decent starting point for some of the reqs for the titles that I've already thought up.
I know most things don't get moved through in the span of a month, but I just want to make sure.
Happiness stems only from violence. - The Stock
It's like putting a band-aid on cancer. - Philip Anselmo
About how long is this window of opportunity going to stay open? I'll probably be able to get a good list up as soon as I process out of the Navy (about two-three weeks from now).
The only reason it will take a while is because I won't have access to my email account for that duration and I'll need to get in contact with people who can pop 10th tier boxes (in accordance with the Locksmith Union box list) and can craft Grand Master Lockpicks consistently in order to get a decent starting point for some of the reqs for the titles that I've already thought up.
I know most things don't get moved through in the span of a month, but I just want to make sure.
Happiness stems only from violence. - The Stock
It's like putting a band-aid on cancer. - Philip Anselmo
EROES
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 09:52 AM CDT
Any chance you could do something like: Once 5% - 10% of the active population has access to the high end titles, you post the requirements. I would guess thats about the time they would show up on some other web sites anyway. This would keep things secrete for a fair amount of time and give you (Simu) a hard number for when to reveal them.
I'd rather know them up front, but if Simu insist on keeping them secrete for a set amount of time, lets apply some type of number to how long that time will be.
E.
I'd rather know them up front, but if Simu insist on keeping them secrete for a set amount of time, lets apply some type of number to how long that time will be.
E.
EROES
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 10:08 AM CDT
| or you can not know its there and just find out when someone uncovers it. |
| The former is my preference, which is why its currently set up that way. |
| However, I'm more than willing to not announce when new Thief-ish titles are released and just let people figure out that they're there when they find them. |
Common sense? Many of those titles have stealing requirements that don't make sense to a good number of people. Thus, our common sense vs your common sense leads to frustration.
Would anyone find it useful to have a vague (common sense) guide line of sorts? I'm not even sure if this could be done, but if it is possible it might be helpful. Puzzles are fun, but sometimes people need hints or references to put them in the right frame of mind or context for solving them.
E.
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 10:50 AM CDT
<<About how long is this window of opportunity going to stay open? >>
Well, its always open, but if you're able to come up with the titles, I can easily handle the reqs. I have ways to get suitable skill rank ranges if you just give me a title and a general circle-range where you think it should be.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
Well, its always open, but if you're able to come up with the titles, I can easily handle the reqs. I have ways to get suitable skill rank ranges if you just give me a title and a general circle-range where you think it should be.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 10:51 AM CDT
<<Once 5% - 10% of the active population has access to the high end titles, you post the requirements.>>
Just for informational purposes, the title system doesn't show who has access to any of the titles, so there's no way to tell.
There will always be titles that have unknown requirements, though.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
Just for informational purposes, the title system doesn't show who has access to any of the titles, so there's no way to tell.
There will always be titles that have unknown requirements, though.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
BRFUQUOIS
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 11:01 AM CDT
No idea if these are already titles, but...
Blight or Bane
Looking for high level reqs.
Venom
Dealing with poison.
Miasma
If it's possible to track how many poison cloud boxes one has set off.
Nuisance or Pest
Low level reqs.
Luckless
For those Thieves who spent months tanking their rep in Muspar'i.
-Fuquois-
The depressing thing about tennis is that no matter how good I get, I'll never be as good as a wall.
Blight or Bane
Looking for high level reqs.
Venom
Dealing with poison.
Miasma
If it's possible to track how many poison cloud boxes one has set off.
Nuisance or Pest
Low level reqs.
Luckless
For those Thieves who spent months tanking their rep in Muspar'i.
-Fuquois-
The depressing thing about tennis is that no matter how good I get, I'll never be as good as a wall.
BOBBRYAN
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 11:07 AM CDT
I actually don't mind the hidden reqs. I'd much rather Simu post them with a huge red SPOILER ALERT, but... if they don't want to, I'm fine with that also.
Also, allow me to clarify why I thought titles on the Thief side of things were not as thought out as they could have been. It wasn't just for the charisma reqs and other guild's titles.
#1) The vast majority of "Thiefy" titles (though open to everyone) are in the criminal folder and require stealing. Our guild requires 2 ranks of stealing per circle... putting some of those titles at 300th circle. Yes, most Thieves have a lot more than 2 ranks of stealing per circle, but I find this to be indicative of pigeon-holing Thieves into stealing even though their reqs don't necessarily do that. Titles like Assassin, Hitman, Mastermind need to have their stealing reqs drastically lowered or removed entirely.
#2) The percentages for rank substitution scale horribly. They work great for titles under 50th circle, but after that, the scale starts skyrocketing. One could argue that bigger and bigger titles should in fact be harder to fake. But remember, right before this change came out, there was a change in Thief titles that allowed 30th titles to be faked at 50th, and 50th titles to be faked at 70th. The change over to SBT effectively nullified this release, as the scale starts going askew at that point. For instance, some of the paladin titles for 50-60th circle have 90-100th circle Thief reqs. Basically, I feel percentages should decrease over time in a logarithmic curve instead of linear.
#3) I don't even understand how they didn't make any Thief titles at all, but put Thief only titles in other categories. That just boggles my brain. It's like saying that Thieves shouldn't out themselves, and we won't give them the option. But it's ok as long as it's a Thief-only survival title. As it sounds now, this is getting changed, and that's great. As part of that, I'd love to see some of our old titles retaken: Wraith, Shadow, several of the criminal ones.
#4) For example, with barbarian titles. If you need 125% backstab to fake weapons, and your weapon works out to be higher than that. It should use your weapon instead. It should be even easier to fake having 260 weapon if you actually do have 260 weapon than if you just had 325 backstab.
#5) Guilds can make any title non-fakeable by simply putting it in a non Guild-only category. If we are faking Moon Mages, and already are faking astrology, that should transfer over to any title that needs astrology. I wouldn't mind if this one waited till guild choice was made permanent.
#6) It was really lame losing all our handshakes, dismantles, etc. Not only did we lose them, but they've been gone a very very long time. This just indicated to me the Thief side of things wasn't very high priority in the whole of SBT. Which is fine, we're only 1 guild. But we've got the most complex title system of any guild. I would have liked it to be fleshed out a little more.
Anyways... those were just the things that I thought were kinda backwards about our title release. I didn't want you to think that it was merely the wonky charisma=spell and roar titles that I thought was off.
-Wighten
Also, allow me to clarify why I thought titles on the Thief side of things were not as thought out as they could have been. It wasn't just for the charisma reqs and other guild's titles.
#1) The vast majority of "Thiefy" titles (though open to everyone) are in the criminal folder and require stealing. Our guild requires 2 ranks of stealing per circle... putting some of those titles at 300th circle. Yes, most Thieves have a lot more than 2 ranks of stealing per circle, but I find this to be indicative of pigeon-holing Thieves into stealing even though their reqs don't necessarily do that. Titles like Assassin, Hitman, Mastermind need to have their stealing reqs drastically lowered or removed entirely.
#2) The percentages for rank substitution scale horribly. They work great for titles under 50th circle, but after that, the scale starts skyrocketing. One could argue that bigger and bigger titles should in fact be harder to fake. But remember, right before this change came out, there was a change in Thief titles that allowed 30th titles to be faked at 50th, and 50th titles to be faked at 70th. The change over to SBT effectively nullified this release, as the scale starts going askew at that point. For instance, some of the paladin titles for 50-60th circle have 90-100th circle Thief reqs. Basically, I feel percentages should decrease over time in a logarithmic curve instead of linear.
#3) I don't even understand how they didn't make any Thief titles at all, but put Thief only titles in other categories. That just boggles my brain. It's like saying that Thieves shouldn't out themselves, and we won't give them the option. But it's ok as long as it's a Thief-only survival title. As it sounds now, this is getting changed, and that's great. As part of that, I'd love to see some of our old titles retaken: Wraith, Shadow, several of the criminal ones.
#4) For example, with barbarian titles. If you need 125% backstab to fake weapons, and your weapon works out to be higher than that. It should use your weapon instead. It should be even easier to fake having 260 weapon if you actually do have 260 weapon than if you just had 325 backstab.
#5) Guilds can make any title non-fakeable by simply putting it in a non Guild-only category. If we are faking Moon Mages, and already are faking astrology, that should transfer over to any title that needs astrology. I wouldn't mind if this one waited till guild choice was made permanent.
#6) It was really lame losing all our handshakes, dismantles, etc. Not only did we lose them, but they've been gone a very very long time. This just indicated to me the Thief side of things wasn't very high priority in the whole of SBT. Which is fine, we're only 1 guild. But we've got the most complex title system of any guild. I would have liked it to be fleshed out a little more.
Anyways... those were just the things that I thought were kinda backwards about our title release. I didn't want you to think that it was merely the wonky charisma=spell and roar titles that I thought was off.
-Wighten
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 11:10 AM CDT
<<Many of those titles have stealing requirements that don't make sense to a good number of people.>>
In looking at the Criminal page, I can see a handful of titles that have Stealing that would seem to not make sense.
In those cases, the Stealing requirement is used to artifitially impose a circle requirement on the title. Since these titles, for the most part, are open to anyone, the alternative would be to make separate versions of the requirements for each title for each guild. Instead, I chose Stealing ranks and used a circle progression rate that looked suitable from a Thieves' Guild perspective.
For those that have violence associated with the name, a second sort of circle throttle was added in terms of the Backstab req.
Other titles have additional appropriate requirements based on their "flavor".
For example:
Criminal Mastermind
At least ? in ?
At least ? in ?
At least ? in ?
At least ? in ?
At least ? in ?
At least ? in ?
Using the "common sense" stuff I mentioned before, what sort of skills and stats would you think a Criminal Mastermind would need?
Obviously, there's a stealing req, but a Criminal Mastermind would also need good eyes to see what's going on around them, good feet to avoid attacks from enemies and even their own minions, skill at getting out of tight spots, be quite charming, and then there's the "mastermind" part, which has its own connotations...
So...there's the reqs for Criminal Mastermind. Sort of.
As for the rest, look at the numbers. When they start to disappear, look at the rate at which they were increasing before they disappeared. Look at the first one that's got an ? for Stealing ranks and then look at the title after it. That was done on pupose.
The numbers and patterns are fairly consistant all the way up, at least until you get to the last few, at which point they spread out. Heck, look at other sets of titles that DON'T have secret requirements. Look at the progressions of the numbers. Look at the spreads for higher level titles. ::pokes::
So yeah, I don't think the whole "my common sense vs your common sense" thing is as out of whack and frustrating as I think you're trying to make it seem.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
In looking at the Criminal page, I can see a handful of titles that have Stealing that would seem to not make sense.
In those cases, the Stealing requirement is used to artifitially impose a circle requirement on the title. Since these titles, for the most part, are open to anyone, the alternative would be to make separate versions of the requirements for each title for each guild. Instead, I chose Stealing ranks and used a circle progression rate that looked suitable from a Thieves' Guild perspective.
For those that have violence associated with the name, a second sort of circle throttle was added in terms of the Backstab req.
Other titles have additional appropriate requirements based on their "flavor".
For example:
Criminal Mastermind
At least ? in ?
At least ? in ?
At least ? in ?
At least ? in ?
At least ? in ?
At least ? in ?
Using the "common sense" stuff I mentioned before, what sort of skills and stats would you think a Criminal Mastermind would need?
Obviously, there's a stealing req, but a Criminal Mastermind would also need good eyes to see what's going on around them, good feet to avoid attacks from enemies and even their own minions, skill at getting out of tight spots, be quite charming, and then there's the "mastermind" part, which has its own connotations...
So...there's the reqs for Criminal Mastermind. Sort of.
As for the rest, look at the numbers. When they start to disappear, look at the rate at which they were increasing before they disappeared. Look at the first one that's got an ? for Stealing ranks and then look at the title after it. That was done on pupose.
The numbers and patterns are fairly consistant all the way up, at least until you get to the last few, at which point they spread out. Heck, look at other sets of titles that DON'T have secret requirements. Look at the progressions of the numbers. Look at the spreads for higher level titles. ::pokes::
So yeah, I don't think the whole "my common sense vs your common sense" thing is as out of whack and frustrating as I think you're trying to make it seem.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 11:12 AM CDT
Blight or Bane
Looking for high level reqs.
Consider this added.
Venom
Dealing with poison.
Already on my list :)
Miasma
If it's possible to track how many poison cloud boxes one has set off.
Not possible to track. :(
Nuisance or Pest
Low level reqs.
Consider this added.
Luckless
For those Thieves who spent months tanking their rep in Muspar'i.
I wish I could force titles on some people...::chuckle::
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
Looking for high level reqs.
Consider this added.
Venom
Dealing with poison.
Already on my list :)
Miasma
If it's possible to track how many poison cloud boxes one has set off.
Not possible to track. :(
Nuisance or Pest
Low level reqs.
Consider this added.
Luckless
For those Thieves who spent months tanking their rep in Muspar'i.
I wish I could force titles on some people...::chuckle::
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
BRFUQUOIS
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 11:19 AM CDT
>>Miasma
>>If it's possible to track how many poison cloud boxes one has set off.
>Not possible to track. :(
Perhaps it could have similar requirements to Venom, as the poison process can produce poison gas as well.
-Fuquois-
The depressing thing about tennis is that no matter how good I get, I'll never be as good as a wall.
>>If it's possible to track how many poison cloud boxes one has set off.
>Not possible to track. :(
Perhaps it could have similar requirements to Venom, as the poison process can produce poison gas as well.
-Fuquois-
The depressing thing about tennis is that no matter how good I get, I'll never be as good as a wall.
BOBBRYAN
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 11:29 AM CDT
Oh.. this is one of my old posts I found. One that I thought would be very very cool in the criminal folder. I'd actually like the criminal folder to be changed to # of total warrants, or even simply being wanted for something specific.
Old Post Begins...
First of all... most of the criminal titles should have some kind of warrant set up. Not all of course, spy, overlord, criminal mastermind; all of those are kinda warrant-neutral. All of the pilfering titles should be set up needing felony stealing, pilfering, or pickpocket charges. In addition, some of these would go well. With other requirements as well of course.
Certain number of hooliganism charges:
mischief, hooligan, brat, vandal, miscreant, rascal, boor, juvenile deliquent, punk, hoodlum, trouble-maker
Certain number of endangering the public charges:
nuisance, Public menace, public danger, trouble maker, plague of the people,
Aiding and Abetting:
Accomplice, abbetor, conspirator, collaborator, insider
Disturbing the Peace:
Loud-mouth, annoyance, hell-raiser, rioter, rebel, protester, parade-marcher, disruptor, propagandist
Murder:
Murderer, Killer, Mass Murderer, Serial Killer, Assassin, Hitman, (all the others that are already there, just w/o stealing)
Loitering:
Loaf, Shirker, Lolly-gagger, sloth, thumb-twiddler, slacker, loiterer, drifter, vegetable (one of my favs)
Crimes against the State:
traitor, oath-breaker, heretic(yep, I know it's being used), anarchist, radical, zealot, defector, dissentor
Old Post Stop
Anyways... I'd love to see Criminals be more than Petty Thieves. Murder, Blackmail, Assault, Counterfeiting, etc are all crimes, and shouldn't necessarily have stealing reqs.
-Wighten
Old Post Begins...
First of all... most of the criminal titles should have some kind of warrant set up. Not all of course, spy, overlord, criminal mastermind; all of those are kinda warrant-neutral. All of the pilfering titles should be set up needing felony stealing, pilfering, or pickpocket charges. In addition, some of these would go well. With other requirements as well of course.
Certain number of hooliganism charges:
mischief, hooligan, brat, vandal, miscreant, rascal, boor, juvenile deliquent, punk, hoodlum, trouble-maker
Certain number of endangering the public charges:
nuisance, Public menace, public danger, trouble maker, plague of the people,
Aiding and Abetting:
Accomplice, abbetor, conspirator, collaborator, insider
Disturbing the Peace:
Loud-mouth, annoyance, hell-raiser, rioter, rebel, protester, parade-marcher, disruptor, propagandist
Murder:
Murderer, Killer, Mass Murderer, Serial Killer, Assassin, Hitman, (all the others that are already there, just w/o stealing)
Loitering:
Loaf, Shirker, Lolly-gagger, sloth, thumb-twiddler, slacker, loiterer, drifter, vegetable (one of my favs)
Crimes against the State:
traitor, oath-breaker, heretic(yep, I know it's being used), anarchist, radical, zealot, defector, dissentor
Old Post Stop
Anyways... I'd love to see Criminals be more than Petty Thieves. Murder, Blackmail, Assault, Counterfeiting, etc are all crimes, and shouldn't necessarily have stealing reqs.
-Wighten
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 11:42 AM CDT
<<#1) I find this to be indicative of pigeon-holing Thieves into stealing even though their reqs don't necessarily do that. Titles like Assassin, Hitman, Mastermind need to have their stealing reqs drastically lowered or removed entirely.>>
Point taken. After I get these new ones in, I'll go back and review those higher level violent-themed titles and restructure the reqs.
<<#2) The percentages for rank substitution scale horribly. They work great for titles under 50th circle, but after that, the scale starts skyrocketing. One could argue that bigger and bigger titles should in fact be harder to fake. But remember, right before this change came out, there was a change in Thief titles that allowed 30th titles to be faked at 50th, and 50th titles to be faked at 70th. The change over to SBT effectively nullified this release, as the scale starts going askew at that point. For instance, some of the paladin titles for 50-60th circle have 90-100th circle Thief reqs. Basically, I feel percentages should decrease over time in a logarithmic curve instead of linear.>>
Show me some concrete examples of what you mean using the Paladin list. I'll look at them.
<<#3) I don't even understand how they didn't make any Thief titles at all, but put Thief only titles in other categories. That just boggles my brain. It's like saying that Thieves shouldn't out themselves, and we won't give them the option. But it's ok as long as it's a Thief-only survival title. As it sounds now, this is getting changed, and that's great. As part of that, I'd love to see some of our old titles retaken: Wraith, Shadow, several of the criminal ones.>>
Because if everyone has access to it, you can't automatically label everyone with X as their title as being a Thief. There are ways for a non-Thief to have enough Backstab ranks to unlock some of those titles. They're not easy ways, but there are ways. Some older players may still have enough ranks to get a few of them.
It has nothing to do with saying "Thieves shouldn't out themselves", but everything to do with "If everyone/anyone can be a Shoplifter, then the members of the Guild aren't really outting themselves by wearing the title, now are they?" ::wink wink nudge nudge slipcoins::
<<#4) For example, with barbarian titles. If you need 125% backstab to fake weapons, and your weapon works out to be higher than that. It should use your weapon instead. It should be even easier to fake having 260 weapon if you actually do have 260 weapon than if you just had 325 backstab.>>
Unfortunately, we can't make multiple entries for each title that allow people to qualify for them 6 different ways. The decision was made by the Thief Team to set a BS % as a replacement standard for most (not all) Barbarian Titles, mostly to add a second "extra level of effort" that would need to be shown having been met to "fake" being a Barbarian. In this case, I can see how we could have easily added a second weapon req, or even a third weapon req, but we went with Backstab to increase the weapon req (indicating the increased difficultly level of faking being a Barbarian) and then added a weapon req to replace the armor req.
So it looks like this:
Wand Breaker (real):
Must be a Barbarian
At least 40 in Highest Weapon
At least 30 in Highest Worn-Armor
And
Wand Breaker (fake):
Must have pretend guild Barbarian
At least 50 in backstab
At least 38 in Highest Weapon
<<#5) Guilds can make any title non-fakeable by simply putting it in a non Guild-only category. If we are faking Moon Mages, and already are faking astrology, that should transfer over to any title that needs astrology. I wouldn't mind if this one waited till guild choice was made permanent.>>
It would have to wait, as it would require us to go through and add "fakes" for every title out there in every possible category, if we did it. However, I think we'll probably leave it the way it is though. You can still fake being a Moon Mage. You just can't have access to every single title available and honestly, I think that would be asking a lot, given the sheer volume of titles that are already available to you guys and not to anyone else.
<<#6) It was really lame losing all our handshakes, dismantles, etc. Not only did we lose them, but they've been gone a very very long time. This just indicated to me the Thief side of things wasn't very high priority in the whole of SBT. Which is fine, we're only 1 guild. But we've got the most complex title system of any guild. I would have liked it to be fleshed out a little more.>>
I'm sorry you think it isn't "fleshed out" enough. I tend to think it is. Its very open and allows Thieves a lot of options and flexibility (too many options and too much flexibility, currently). The Thieves Guild was a very important part of both the design and implementation of the new system and to be frank, the situation with the Thieves' Guild and Titles was one of the main reasons I pushed this project.
I'm not sure what you're referring to in regards to your handshakes and dismantles, but the Title System has nothing to do with that.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
Point taken. After I get these new ones in, I'll go back and review those higher level violent-themed titles and restructure the reqs.
<<#2) The percentages for rank substitution scale horribly. They work great for titles under 50th circle, but after that, the scale starts skyrocketing. One could argue that bigger and bigger titles should in fact be harder to fake. But remember, right before this change came out, there was a change in Thief titles that allowed 30th titles to be faked at 50th, and 50th titles to be faked at 70th. The change over to SBT effectively nullified this release, as the scale starts going askew at that point. For instance, some of the paladin titles for 50-60th circle have 90-100th circle Thief reqs. Basically, I feel percentages should decrease over time in a logarithmic curve instead of linear.>>
Show me some concrete examples of what you mean using the Paladin list. I'll look at them.
<<#3) I don't even understand how they didn't make any Thief titles at all, but put Thief only titles in other categories. That just boggles my brain. It's like saying that Thieves shouldn't out themselves, and we won't give them the option. But it's ok as long as it's a Thief-only survival title. As it sounds now, this is getting changed, and that's great. As part of that, I'd love to see some of our old titles retaken: Wraith, Shadow, several of the criminal ones.>>
Because if everyone has access to it, you can't automatically label everyone with X as their title as being a Thief. There are ways for a non-Thief to have enough Backstab ranks to unlock some of those titles. They're not easy ways, but there are ways. Some older players may still have enough ranks to get a few of them.
It has nothing to do with saying "Thieves shouldn't out themselves", but everything to do with "If everyone/anyone can be a Shoplifter, then the members of the Guild aren't really outting themselves by wearing the title, now are they?" ::wink wink nudge nudge slipcoins::
<<#4) For example, with barbarian titles. If you need 125% backstab to fake weapons, and your weapon works out to be higher than that. It should use your weapon instead. It should be even easier to fake having 260 weapon if you actually do have 260 weapon than if you just had 325 backstab.>>
Unfortunately, we can't make multiple entries for each title that allow people to qualify for them 6 different ways. The decision was made by the Thief Team to set a BS % as a replacement standard for most (not all) Barbarian Titles, mostly to add a second "extra level of effort" that would need to be shown having been met to "fake" being a Barbarian. In this case, I can see how we could have easily added a second weapon req, or even a third weapon req, but we went with Backstab to increase the weapon req (indicating the increased difficultly level of faking being a Barbarian) and then added a weapon req to replace the armor req.
So it looks like this:
Wand Breaker (real):
Must be a Barbarian
At least 40 in Highest Weapon
At least 30 in Highest Worn-Armor
And
Wand Breaker (fake):
Must have pretend guild Barbarian
At least 50 in backstab
At least 38 in Highest Weapon
<<#5) Guilds can make any title non-fakeable by simply putting it in a non Guild-only category. If we are faking Moon Mages, and already are faking astrology, that should transfer over to any title that needs astrology. I wouldn't mind if this one waited till guild choice was made permanent.>>
It would have to wait, as it would require us to go through and add "fakes" for every title out there in every possible category, if we did it. However, I think we'll probably leave it the way it is though. You can still fake being a Moon Mage. You just can't have access to every single title available and honestly, I think that would be asking a lot, given the sheer volume of titles that are already available to you guys and not to anyone else.
<<#6) It was really lame losing all our handshakes, dismantles, etc. Not only did we lose them, but they've been gone a very very long time. This just indicated to me the Thief side of things wasn't very high priority in the whole of SBT. Which is fine, we're only 1 guild. But we've got the most complex title system of any guild. I would have liked it to be fleshed out a little more.>>
I'm sorry you think it isn't "fleshed out" enough. I tend to think it is. Its very open and allows Thieves a lot of options and flexibility (too many options and too much flexibility, currently). The Thieves Guild was a very important part of both the design and implementation of the new system and to be frank, the situation with the Thieves' Guild and Titles was one of the main reasons I pushed this project.
I'm not sure what you're referring to in regards to your handshakes and dismantles, but the Title System has nothing to do with that.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 11:47 AM CDT
<<Oh.. this is one of my old posts I found.>>
Yup...quite a few of these made it in. This is one of the posts I used to get requests/ideas from.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
Yup...quite a few of these made it in. This is one of the posts I used to get requests/ideas from.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
LYSIONEK
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 12:02 PM CDT
>I'm not sure what you're referring to in regards to your handshakes and dismantles, but the Title System has nothing to do with that.
When they turned off the option to only choose one fake guild, they also removed all of our fake abilities that went along with that one guild. So, previously, as a fake barbarian, a thief would be able to fake the barbarian handshake and use the barbarian dismantle as well. Now, since thieves have access to ALL fake guild titles, we can no longer use any of the fake dismantles or handshakes. We were told that once fake guilds become permanent again, we'd get them back. However, seeing as how this hasn't happened yet, we've been without these fake abilities for a year now.
-Pythea-
"This is a community. It's not just a game." - Ssra
When they turned off the option to only choose one fake guild, they also removed all of our fake abilities that went along with that one guild. So, previously, as a fake barbarian, a thief would be able to fake the barbarian handshake and use the barbarian dismantle as well. Now, since thieves have access to ALL fake guild titles, we can no longer use any of the fake dismantles or handshakes. We were told that once fake guilds become permanent again, we'd get them back. However, seeing as how this hasn't happened yet, we've been without these fake abilities for a year now.
-Pythea-
"This is a community. It's not just a game." - Ssra
BOBBRYAN
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 12:03 PM CDT
>>Show me some concrete examples of what you mean using the Paladin list. I'll look at them.<<
Ok... let me find some of them. Ok... I think we can easily say that for 99.5% or more of Thieves, Backstab will not be survival 1 or 2. In spot 3 is still pretty high up, but I'll assume the highest, because these will be the people that want to fake barbs.
Using your example
Wand Breaker
At least 40 in Highest Weapon
At least 30 in Highest Armor
10th circle barb. Originally, Thieves would get it at 20th circle. Under the new reqs, you can actually get it even earlier. 58 backstab puts it at 19th for a Thief. Fair enough. Go a little bit further on.
Spell Shunt
At least 140 in Highest Weapon
At least 110 in Highest Armor
This would be a 30th circle title for barbs. For Thieves... 175 backstab. 52nd circle for Thieves. Just a little over what it was originally (50th), but still really close. The problem comes a little bit after that.
Kirm Sathranit
At least 260 in Highest Weapon
At least 190 in Highest Armor
Now this would be a 50th title for a Barb. Now, under the old system, it would have needed to be a 70th title. Now it's between 89th-90th. 325 backstab. Now... it just gets worse from this point.
Plunderer
At least 380 in Highest Weapon
At least 270 in Highest Armor
At least 100 in Stealing
A barbarian 70th title. A Thief, however, would need 475 backstab. Even assuming that a Thief keeps it up there in his top 3. This puts the title at 121st circle.
Anyways, I'm just using barbs as a reference. But basically, this system caps us at titles for circles 1-30. It falls apart after that.
>>You can still fake being a Moon Mage. You just can't have access to every single title available and honestly, I think that would be asking a lot, given the sheer volume of titles that are already available to you guys and not to anyone else.<<
A fair enough answer. But, as you said yourself, our guild IS going to get locked down. And since there are only 10 guild only titles, we don't have a 'sheer' volume really. If anything, we'd be able to have our 10 and half of the moonie titles. And I don't think you would need to make seperate reqs for every title. The only ones that really get to me are the scouting titles in the survival category, and the astrology titles in the astrology category. All the primary magic ones are fine, even though we can't fake those.
>>I'm not sure what you're referring to in regards to your handshakes and dismantles, but the Title System has nothing to do with that.<<
When we changed over to SBT, we lost all our dismantles and handshakes. We were assured they would get fixed to work with the new system, but they'd probably wait until our pretend titles were locked down. If someone forgot that they weren't working with the new system, it kinda bugs me that it was forgotten. But no matter, we can bring it to light now.
-Wighten
Ok... let me find some of them. Ok... I think we can easily say that for 99.5% or more of Thieves, Backstab will not be survival 1 or 2. In spot 3 is still pretty high up, but I'll assume the highest, because these will be the people that want to fake barbs.
Using your example
Wand Breaker
At least 40 in Highest Weapon
At least 30 in Highest Armor
10th circle barb. Originally, Thieves would get it at 20th circle. Under the new reqs, you can actually get it even earlier. 58 backstab puts it at 19th for a Thief. Fair enough. Go a little bit further on.
Spell Shunt
At least 140 in Highest Weapon
At least 110 in Highest Armor
This would be a 30th circle title for barbs. For Thieves... 175 backstab. 52nd circle for Thieves. Just a little over what it was originally (50th), but still really close. The problem comes a little bit after that.
Kirm Sathranit
At least 260 in Highest Weapon
At least 190 in Highest Armor
Now this would be a 50th title for a Barb. Now, under the old system, it would have needed to be a 70th title. Now it's between 89th-90th. 325 backstab. Now... it just gets worse from this point.
Plunderer
At least 380 in Highest Weapon
At least 270 in Highest Armor
At least 100 in Stealing
A barbarian 70th title. A Thief, however, would need 475 backstab. Even assuming that a Thief keeps it up there in his top 3. This puts the title at 121st circle.
Anyways, I'm just using barbs as a reference. But basically, this system caps us at titles for circles 1-30. It falls apart after that.
>>You can still fake being a Moon Mage. You just can't have access to every single title available and honestly, I think that would be asking a lot, given the sheer volume of titles that are already available to you guys and not to anyone else.<<
A fair enough answer. But, as you said yourself, our guild IS going to get locked down. And since there are only 10 guild only titles, we don't have a 'sheer' volume really. If anything, we'd be able to have our 10 and half of the moonie titles. And I don't think you would need to make seperate reqs for every title. The only ones that really get to me are the scouting titles in the survival category, and the astrology titles in the astrology category. All the primary magic ones are fine, even though we can't fake those.
>>I'm not sure what you're referring to in regards to your handshakes and dismantles, but the Title System has nothing to do with that.<<
When we changed over to SBT, we lost all our dismantles and handshakes. We were assured they would get fixed to work with the new system, but they'd probably wait until our pretend titles were locked down. If someone forgot that they weren't working with the new system, it kinda bugs me that it was forgotten. But no matter, we can bring it to light now.
-Wighten
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 12:09 PM CDT
<<When they turned off the option to only choose one fake guild, they also removed all of our fake abilities that went along with that one guild. So, previously, as a fake barbarian, a thief would be able to fake the barbarian handshake and use the barbarian dismantle as well. Now, since thieves have access to ALL fake guild titles, we can no longer use any of the fake dismantles or handshakes. We were told that once fake guilds become permanent again, we'd get them back. However, seeing as how this hasn't happened yet, we've been without these fake abilities for a year now.>>
Gotcha. Now I rememeber all that. I can understand the reasoning.
Its probably time to turn the "one fake guild" lock back on.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
Gotcha. Now I rememeber all that. I can understand the reasoning.
Its probably time to turn the "one fake guild" lock back on.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
EROES
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 12:10 PM CDT
Just a note to say thank you to DR staff for the communication these days.
E.
E.
VROTSOSJ
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 12:12 PM CDT
>>I'm not sure what you're referring to in regards to your handshakes and dismantles, but the Title System has nothing to do with that.
Fairly sure it's because the fake guild isn't permanent yet but he means like when a barbarian shakes a thief faking a barbarian with a fake barb title up what used to happen was (barbarian sees normal messaging for shaking barbarian's hand) and I thought there might have been special thief messaging but not 100%. Stuff like that. It seemed to break down in the last release of titles before the SBT system in that only the "old" titles would work.
With the experience and charisma thing...what I think we're trying to say is that charisma would be more of the raw talent thing and that circle would be the experience modifier of that raw talent.
Easier to fake something with the raw talent, but not as hard to fake something if you have more experience under your belt.
For the paladin titles...the below is what you need in armor for 50th.
Lord Knight
At least 240 in Highest Armor
At least 32 in Charisma
Must own a horse
Translates to
At least 240 ranks in highest weapon (what a thief needs at 80th circle)
At least 32 in charisma
Must own a horse
Guardian Lord*
At least 250 in Highest Armor (How much armor you need at 52nd circle)
Translates to
At least 250 in Highest Weapon (How much weapon you need at 83rd)
etc...
I am --- Navak
Fairly sure it's because the fake guild isn't permanent yet but he means like when a barbarian shakes a thief faking a barbarian with a fake barb title up what used to happen was (barbarian sees normal messaging for shaking barbarian's hand) and I thought there might have been special thief messaging but not 100%. Stuff like that. It seemed to break down in the last release of titles before the SBT system in that only the "old" titles would work.
With the experience and charisma thing...what I think we're trying to say is that charisma would be more of the raw talent thing and that circle would be the experience modifier of that raw talent.
Easier to fake something with the raw talent, but not as hard to fake something if you have more experience under your belt.
For the paladin titles...the below is what you need in armor for 50th.
Lord Knight
At least 240 in Highest Armor
At least 32 in Charisma
Must own a horse
Translates to
At least 240 ranks in highest weapon (what a thief needs at 80th circle)
At least 32 in charisma
Must own a horse
Guardian Lord*
At least 250 in Highest Armor (How much armor you need at 52nd circle)
Translates to
At least 250 in Highest Weapon (How much weapon you need at 83rd)
etc...
I am --- Navak
VROTSOSJ
BOBBRYAN
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 12:16 PM CDT
>>Just a note to say thank you to DR staff for the communication these days.<<
I definately agree. We've had most of these issues since day one, but it's been nice to actually have a 2 way dialogue about it. Definatley helps squelch those abandonment complexes.
-Wighten
I definately agree. We've had most of these issues since day one, but it's been nice to actually have a 2 way dialogue about it. Definatley helps squelch those abandonment complexes.
-Wighten
EROES
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 12:17 PM CDT
Adding to Navak's post.
If we have the pure ranks to meet the "Lord Knight" title, why are we forced to use the "Translated" ranks? The way I train, my armor is simply always higher than my weapons. If I meet the real requirements, should I not be able to FAKE it?
E.
If we have the pure ranks to meet the "Lord Knight" title, why are we forced to use the "Translated" ranks? The way I train, my armor is simply always higher than my weapons. If I meet the real requirements, should I not be able to FAKE it?
E.
NKRISS
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 12:27 PM CDT
Preface this by saying I don't have a high level thief, so all my information on the titles is second hand or with the experience of lower level titles. But from what I understand, currently all you need to access berserk/dance based titles is charisma.
Charisma being, going back to our little acting analogy, raw talent.
<<As much raw talent as a four year old has, they simply won't be able to pull off a serious dramatic role.>>
>>Exactly. Which is why they don't get serious roles (or high level Barbarian titles, for that matter) when they're 4(th circle).
So my question is, why again can't an extremely low circle thief access much higher barbarian titles simply by having the charisma for it? What's stopping my 50th thief with 60 charisma from accessing a 150th berserk title?
<<And on the same note, even an untalented actor who had been acting for 40 years would be able to do a decent job in a simple role.>>
>>Right...which is why he'd only have access to low level titles. He'd only be able to handle something that wouldn't require a lot of skill or panache.
And on the same note, why couldn't my 150th thief with low charisma still be able to fake some paltry 50th circle barbarian title just by pure virtue of his skill and experience?
This is all, of course, going back to the idea that some titles should have dual requirements if possible...either charisma OR circle or a combination of both. I think Navak said it best:
>>Easier to fake something with the raw talent, but not as hard to fake something if you have more experience under your belt.
And
>>Thanks for helping me make my point.
That's why I'm here of course :)
-Teeklin
"You take people, you put them on a journey, you give them peril, you find out who they really are. If there's any kind of fiction better than that, I don't know what it is." -Joss Whedon
Charisma being, going back to our little acting analogy, raw talent.
<<As much raw talent as a four year old has, they simply won't be able to pull off a serious dramatic role.>>
>>Exactly. Which is why they don't get serious roles (or high level Barbarian titles, for that matter) when they're 4(th circle).
So my question is, why again can't an extremely low circle thief access much higher barbarian titles simply by having the charisma for it? What's stopping my 50th thief with 60 charisma from accessing a 150th berserk title?
<<And on the same note, even an untalented actor who had been acting for 40 years would be able to do a decent job in a simple role.>>
>>Right...which is why he'd only have access to low level titles. He'd only be able to handle something that wouldn't require a lot of skill or panache.
And on the same note, why couldn't my 150th thief with low charisma still be able to fake some paltry 50th circle barbarian title just by pure virtue of his skill and experience?
This is all, of course, going back to the idea that some titles should have dual requirements if possible...either charisma OR circle or a combination of both. I think Navak said it best:
>>Easier to fake something with the raw talent, but not as hard to fake something if you have more experience under your belt.
And
>>Thanks for helping me make my point.
That's why I'm here of course :)
-Teeklin
"You take people, you put them on a journey, you give them peril, you find out who they really are. If there's any kind of fiction better than that, I don't know what it is." -Joss Whedon
BANANAFISH
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 12:28 PM CDT
>>Just a note to say thank you to DR staff for the communication these days.
Yeah, what's up with all the GMs in the Thieves folders lately actually responding to posts? It must be some sort of trick.
Yeah, what's up with all the GMs in the Thieves folders lately actually responding to posts? It must be some sort of trick.
MCNITTD1
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 12:59 PM CDT
Just a quick thanks for the line of communication that has opened up recently for titles and the stealing rewrite.
And a quick request to hold off on restoring the permanent pretend guild until the dust settles a little more on the new title releases.
~ Tender Infiltrator Purehand Woundedlife, Co-Pay Enforcer of Elanthia.
And a quick request to hold off on restoring the permanent pretend guild until the dust settles a little more on the new title releases.
~ Tender Infiltrator Purehand Woundedlife, Co-Pay Enforcer of Elanthia.
YAMCER
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 02:15 PM CDT
for the handshake and dismantles and such, don't forget piles from collecting. thoes also were apart of our disguise system.
for the weapon -> backstab example why can't the req of "125% backstab or 100% weapon + 100% backstab" be placed in there?
The disguise system has huge potential, and we have been told a lot of things that would come from it, yet we are still outted by a percieve helath, a percieve person, a handhske, forage collect, ect ect... it's all beyond the control of the player and are system issues. Titles are great for disguise since first impressions always stick, but the whole system is just bare bones. with half of that working even less than bare bones.
need to get teh disguise ball rolling again, make the announcemets, clear everyones pretend guild and make them choose agian permentently like we are supposed to. Th get rid of thoes things that are not under our control that other players can (ab)use to out us.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
for the weapon -> backstab example why can't the req of "125% backstab or 100% weapon + 100% backstab" be placed in there?
The disguise system has huge potential, and we have been told a lot of things that would come from it, yet we are still outted by a percieve helath, a percieve person, a handhske, forage collect, ect ect... it's all beyond the control of the player and are system issues. Titles are great for disguise since first impressions always stick, but the whole system is just bare bones. with half of that working even less than bare bones.
need to get teh disguise ball rolling again, make the announcemets, clear everyones pretend guild and make them choose agian permentently like we are supposed to. Th get rid of thoes things that are not under our control that other players can (ab)use to out us.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 02:18 PM CDT
<<Kirm Sathranit >>
Your numbers are correct on this one, assuming someone trained Backstab at the minimum ranks needed.
<<Plunderer >>
<< A Thief, however, would need 475 backstab.>>
Incorrect assumption on numbers for this one. My guess is, someone's already taken your argument into account.
<<And since there are only 10 guild only titles, we don't have a 'sheer' volume really.>>
Yes, you do.
You have your Thief titles, several exclusive (or near exclusive) Criminal titles, plus quite a few fake guild titles. Not to mention that you're generally going to have access to more Survival titles simply because you have the need to train survival skills.
So yes, compared to any other guild, you have significantly more titles available to you at any given time, whether the fake guilds are opened or locked down.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
Your numbers are correct on this one, assuming someone trained Backstab at the minimum ranks needed.
<<Plunderer >>
<< A Thief, however, would need 475 backstab.>>
Incorrect assumption on numbers for this one. My guess is, someone's already taken your argument into account.
<<And since there are only 10 guild only titles, we don't have a 'sheer' volume really.>>
Yes, you do.
You have your Thief titles, several exclusive (or near exclusive) Criminal titles, plus quite a few fake guild titles. Not to mention that you're generally going to have access to more Survival titles simply because you have the need to train survival skills.
So yes, compared to any other guild, you have significantly more titles available to you at any given time, whether the fake guilds are opened or locked down.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 02:22 PM CDT
<<For the paladin titles...the below is what you need in armor for 50th.>>
For some of them, yes there seems to be a bit of a stretch from the old days of "20 circle difference".
I'll discuss it with some folks and see if we're ok with the stretch or if it needs to get tweaked.
You guys have made some good points.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
For some of them, yes there seems to be a bit of a stretch from the old days of "20 circle difference".
I'll discuss it with some folks and see if we're ok with the stretch or if it needs to get tweaked.
You guys have made some good points.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
BOBBRYAN
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 03:42 PM CDT
While you're being cool, and listening to all our requests on titles. What about some of the titles in the Ranger and Bard guild. For both of these, we actually need the real ranks of a lot of things Thieves don't normally train a whole lot of strings and foraging in general.
Now, I can totally understand how knowing to forage would help you be a Ranger. But at what point does it stop being acting? If you can do everything a Ranger can do, I'm sure it's pretty easy to fake. I guess that's my main thing, if it's 'fake' why do we have such crazy reqs for some of these things. And note, I'm not talking about survival titles or performance titles with these, just the guild only ones.
Needing equal ranks of Bard musical reqs pretty much means anyone faking a Bard has to spend even longer than a Bard just sitting around playing.
Would it not be a little more palatable to throw in a bone to some of those, and require 75% of those side reqs, or even 50%. I'd think having 150 strings for a lot of those titles shows a lot of commitment, even if they haven't played to having 300.
-Wighten
Now, I can totally understand how knowing to forage would help you be a Ranger. But at what point does it stop being acting? If you can do everything a Ranger can do, I'm sure it's pretty easy to fake. I guess that's my main thing, if it's 'fake' why do we have such crazy reqs for some of these things. And note, I'm not talking about survival titles or performance titles with these, just the guild only ones.
Needing equal ranks of Bard musical reqs pretty much means anyone faking a Bard has to spend even longer than a Bard just sitting around playing.
Would it not be a little more palatable to throw in a bone to some of those, and require 75% of those side reqs, or even 50%. I'd think having 150 strings for a lot of those titles shows a lot of commitment, even if they haven't played to having 300.
-Wighten
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Aint gonna be any left
07/07/2006 04:13 PM CDT
<<What about some of the titles in the Ranger and Bard guild.>>
Bard:
In looking through the reqs for higher level Pretend Bard titles, I only see a handful of them that require ANY skill in any one (or more) Music type. Most only check for total combined ranks in the various music disciplines.
The ones I see that require specific skill ranks are:
Poet, which requires 120 in Vocals and less in all the others.
Between Poet and Master Poet, all the titles simply require hiding ranks and usually an overall total of all combined music skills.
Master Poet and Master Fool, which require 400 in vocals and less in all the others
Thespian, which requires 525 Vocals
That's it. So there are what....3? 4? titles with "crazy" specific Music Lore reqs that match Bard reqs and those are (and should be) tough "roles" to pull off, so they'd require some serious devotion to faking a Bard. Not all titles will (or should be) easily fakeable.
Rangers:
Basically, the same story. In reviewing all the Pretend Ranger titles, the first one I see that requires ANY ranks in foraging is Warden at 250 ranks. Then Wilder at 375, Keeper at 600.
Other than that, they're all Thief-y requirements (hiding, stalking, perception) and/or climbing and swimming with some stat and weapon reqs sprinkled in.
So...I'm confused. It really sounds like you think the system is set up completely differently than it is. You're quoting reqs that aren't even applicable.
Hopefully this will help make things more clear for you, but it doesn't look like the situation is as dire as I was being lead to believe.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
Bard:
In looking through the reqs for higher level Pretend Bard titles, I only see a handful of them that require ANY skill in any one (or more) Music type. Most only check for total combined ranks in the various music disciplines.
The ones I see that require specific skill ranks are:
Poet, which requires 120 in Vocals and less in all the others.
Between Poet and Master Poet, all the titles simply require hiding ranks and usually an overall total of all combined music skills.
Master Poet and Master Fool, which require 400 in vocals and less in all the others
Thespian, which requires 525 Vocals
That's it. So there are what....3? 4? titles with "crazy" specific Music Lore reqs that match Bard reqs and those are (and should be) tough "roles" to pull off, so they'd require some serious devotion to faking a Bard. Not all titles will (or should be) easily fakeable.
Rangers:
Basically, the same story. In reviewing all the Pretend Ranger titles, the first one I see that requires ANY ranks in foraging is Warden at 250 ranks. Then Wilder at 375, Keeper at 600.
Other than that, they're all Thief-y requirements (hiding, stalking, perception) and/or climbing and swimming with some stat and weapon reqs sprinkled in.
So...I'm confused. It really sounds like you think the system is set up completely differently than it is. You're quoting reqs that aren't even applicable.
Hopefully this will help make things more clear for you, but it doesn't look like the situation is as dire as I was being lead to believe.
Solomon
What's going on?
http://www.livejournal.com/~drbubba
