Outside of the Wishlist thread, THIS thread is where I want to hear what pains you the most as a Thief. Be detailed, because I'm not really familiar with all areas of Thief training, especially at high levels, so the more information you can tell me about your woes, the better staff can look into it.

What sort of stuff I want to hear:
* What skills are hard to train?
* What do you do to train them currently?
* This specific task could have better EXP output / I notice a lot less EXP gain at this EXP range.
* Current (thing) is not very effective for training (thing) and could use (this improvement.)
* I think this (thing) is bugging because when I do (these things) it does something I think is inconsistent or wrong.

Please give me details! Giving me generic blanket statements on something is not helpful and is either going to make me disregard your post or ask you for clarification. Expect me to ask for clarification on things if you don't provide a lot of detail -- or even if you do, I might still have questions.


PS: If your post is something offtopic, rude, inflammatory, or otherwise not a productive part of this thread, your post will get removed. Try to keep us on topic. If you want to tell someone they're stupid, do it in Conflict folder. If you notice someone's woe is training a thing, but you know a better way, SHARE IT HERE, but please make your post (Offtopic) so that people don't get confused. If the wishlist thread totally prepared you to whinge (yes, whinge, look it up.) and groan about current abilities, do it here! I want to hear all about it.

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NaOH+HI

Ambush Choke - It is the only way to learn the Debilitation skill before 20th circle if you pick up Khri Prowess or 25th circle when you get the next Ambush. The problem is that it trains the Debil skill horribly, even if you leave your stats at base levels. I've run tests on a challenging critter and after 2 hours of doing nothing but using Ambush Choke I only got the skill to 23/34. It is so frustrating trying to learn the skill before 20-25th circle that most people just ignore it till then. Choke is picked up at 3rd circle, so this is a long time to go without training a skill when you have an ability that should train it. Every other Khri/Ambush teaches effectively except this one.


Contacts - What is considered in town for these guys needs to be looked at. Right now it amounts to pretty much open streets while the majority of interiors and other isolated areas (Raven's Court) do not count. I don't know if this is possible with the no-locate wards in the guild, but it would be nice if we could locate our own kind while inside the guild or passages. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to use them to locate someone and they couldn't be found only to find out they were inside some building within the city limits.


Reputation - Right now the only thing that matters is a negative reputation. There is no benefit, that I know of, to having a neutral/positive rep with the guild. To make matters worse training Thievery, a skill we have to train to circle, will lower our rep because there is a large random factor that will mean we always are getting caught. To mitigate this loss of rep we have to give up a lot of profit from stealing (that other guilds don't) just to keep ourselves from getting thugged when we enter our guilds. Stop training Thievery and reputation is completely ignorable because it gives no benefit and you are doing nothing to actively lower it.


Reliance on Stealth - While I love our focus on stealth combat and how good we are at it, it would be great if we had just a little support to make us more durable in open combat. This isn't just about PvP. Even in PvE we are the least durable guild and it's hard to train for any length of time without having to constantly run to get healed or milking every hunting ground for every last rank. Our lack of low level barriers is one issue and IIRC Raesh has plans to give us more, and having some Khri that helped with other mundane defenses would be a big help. Our Reflex buff is the only viable defensive Khri for anyone under 200-250 ranks, and even then our Evasion booster is tough to keep up with any other Khri till you have 250+ Concentration.


Khri using Concentration as fuel - I don't know how feasible it will be to change this, but this is hands down the biggest complaint of everyone I know that has tried to start a new Thief or anyone that has returned to their mid-level Thief who didn't train their stats for this system and have grandfathered magic ranks.
First, what and how many Khri you can run is completely dependant on your stats after about 150 ranks in the magic skills. Second, Concentration's regen rate is completely linear and based off of your max Concentration, which is again based on your stats. This makes using Khri at low circles (below 50-60th circle) really frustrating to the point that people use them more to train magic skills rather than for their effects.

My solution to this is to take a page from the Barbarian book and make Khri's pool based on the Inner Magic skill (like IF pool size is based off of IF skill). Front load the regen rate of this pool so that you can use more Khri sooner and as you get higher in skill it slows down and eventually reaches the same regen rate as 550 Concentration (100 Disc/Intel/Stam) gives for Khri.

I'd like to second the voice on Thievery. It's a pain to train and takes up a lot of time compared to other skills in the upper ranges. Perhaps we could nudge the EXP returned on shop thefts a bit?

Not learning related, but could we perchance get an offensive dispel ability? Maybe blend it in with the DIRT skills and remove a single magical effect or something. If tied into AMBUSH SCREEN, it might even give us a nifty tool to use during invasions. Just a thought.

Thievery. All it does is ruin reputation, cost exponentially more money the more you get caught in a single province, and requires travelling all over to different cities just to lock it. Biggest pain in the neck skill I have trained in DR.

Backstab. It's not that bad. I can train it just fine, it just seems silly to have to ambush right eye over and over to train it. I'd rather get exp for actually killing things.

Reputation. Like people have already said, all Reputation does is negative things for us. There is literally no benefit that comes from the Reputation system.

My hatebox:

Thievery:
Once you hit the 200s, it's just really tiresome. There's a really high percent chance of failure (snake eyes) with no warning or recourse other than 'haha, here's a charge'. The profits from it aren't great. I'd honestly forgo all possible profit if it made learning faster. I can't ever steal something I would 'want' from a shop, it's all low-cost trinkets. Useful in an emergency. That leaves primary PvP applications, which are blech. Honestly, if the guild skill could be thievery, backstab, or locksmithing, I think no one would ever train it again.

Over-dependence on stealth:
I get that thieves are the super-sneaky in DR. But I hate that every non-khri ability I get either deals with hiding, requires hiding, makes me better at moving around hidden, or so on. It would be really nice to have a few unhidden tricks and tools.

Thought of another one!

Arcana.

I'd love it if thieves could utilize magic devices somehow. But what really irritates me is the inability to figure out what runestones/etc. I'm collecting. I can read a scroll, I'd think with enough scholarship I could identify the patterns etched on a runestone.

<I'd love it if thieves could utilize magic devices somehow.

They will be able to after enchanting comes out. They can use some now also. I don't really think using magical devices that actually require arcana would ever fit into the wheelhouse, though, maybe special thief only gadgets from tinkering or something that could fill that gap.

My single biggest gripe training a Circle 30 thief is that stealing from players doesn't move exp up - the shop system is cumbersome in a couple ways

1 Items are ether way too easy and train little or way too hard. I'd LOVE for PVP stealing to train... but Im definitely feeling that is not a shared sentiment. I think a simple exp hike for guilded thieves stealing items would be a HUGE morale boost. This IS what we're all about after all, why shouldn't it be as painless as possible for us?

2 Binning is a huge pain, already mentioned just adding my agreement.

3 Reputation! Noticed everyone covered it just 2nding and 3rding it. It's ok if something has a downside but there should be an upswing. I suggested getting passes on being reported to the guards, but really anything concrete would be huge.

Ok all my complaints are stealing centered. This is from a player that did nothing except steal on the piers and get chased around for years. I'm branching out now there's a lot more great stuff to this game. I would love, that being said however, for some of what makes the THIEVES guild a thief guild work well. If some of the burglary suggestions are taken, it would be a nice way to vary the tedious shoplifting routine and allow us to train a tough skill better. So maybe that's the answer rather than just more exp for shoplifting. And it all goes together - if we look forward to being rewarded from a great rep, stealing suddenly becomes exciting. If we judge our targets well and come away with a great haul we get something, and if we screw up and get caught well... getting caught sucks and we do better.

>[Stealing] IS what we're all about after all, why shouldn't it be as painless as possible for us?

Honestly, I really disagree. Saying thieves in DR are 'only' about stealing is really underselling the guild a lot. Poor naming convention aside (remember, when DR was written everything called rogues thieves), DR thieves are less pure thief and more simple rogue. I'm not trying to derail the conversation. so pardon me.

>>Also, I have a question about debilitation. It's a pain for lower level thieves (I don't have a lower level thief, and I don't know that I'd want to train another one right now). Does backstab not teach it? I only ask because I've been hunting lately without using any special ambushes and using augmentation and utility khri but my debil stays pretty well locked.

Using the expecho plugin in Genie it's not showing that I learn any Debil while using Backstab. This is the output when I use BS: Learned: Backstab, Small Edged, Melee Mastery.

Are you sure you aren't throwing Prowess in there? Or using Screen more often than you think? The only way I know to train Debil for Thieves is by using Khri Prowess or Guile, or using Ambushes.

>>Using the expecho plugin in Genie it's not showing that I learn any Debil while using Backstab. This is the output when I use BS: Learned: Backstab, Small Edged, Melee Mastery.

>>Are you sure you aren't throwing Prowess in there? Or using Screen more often than you think? The only way I know to train Debil for Thieves is by using Khri Prowess or Guile, or using Ambushes.

I probably ambushed a lot this trip. I'll tell my script not to ambush at all next time I go out and look at it.

I'll echo the thievery complaint:

1) It gets slow and tedious to train. I just sit and watch script run for hours if I'm trying to rank Thievery. Please just make it faster to mindlock Thievery, similar to the Debil change (I think Javac made).
2) Fines get expensive and negates any profit from pawning. Since we're losing unique Thief-only crafting (see below), it'd be nice to make some profit from stealing, but nothing unbalancing. Maybe a khri or magic that increases the value of pawned items by a % (I'm grasping at straws here). Or make binning return some money too.
3) Going to jail exhausts gweth and ring charges. Please change so that it doesn't.

Other complaints:

Lack of AoE damage ability. A light thrown "Fan of Knives/Daggers" as has been suggested would be nice.
Unique lockpick carving and poison making to Thieves becoming available to all? What's left for Thieves?
Increase the range at which mobs will not see me hide/reduce mob perception. Sometimes need to run around finding a more efficient mob against which to train. Hide/stalk, hide/stalk, hide/stalk.
Locksmithing lags my other survivals, but I admittedly don't focus on killing just mobs that drop boxes. When I do pop boxes, it's fairly easy to train. Perhaps expand what mobs will drop boxes?
Titles - is this secretive or do people just don't know the reqs for them?

Thanks for taking a look at us. It's sincerely appreciated.

I can only speak for myself on some of these:

Backstab - I have no problem getting this to ML on any at-level mob using ambush. BS in 200s. I'm not sure what the issue is.

Stealthy movements - although not 'stealthy' per se, I'd like to be able to pick my teeth with my dagger or stiletto

Thievery - Using current systems, I'd think the easiest/most beneficial solution would be to make it faster to ML the skill, similar to what Javac did with Debil.

Debil training - no issues with this since Javac made the change. Not sure how difficult it is to still train at lower levels. When I put up Prowess, it MLs quickly.

Locksmith training - back in the 90s, there was a way to train locks similar to what you suggest, but it was removed. I really like your idea here. Bonus if it's included as a craftable in tinkering.

<<Thievery (current system fix)

A quick patch might be a 'training room' in the Guild just for thieves like what I saw someone else mention. Remember in those ninja movies where the thief had to rob the dummy with the bells attached to it, without making the bells ring? To prevent abuse maybe you can only train every so often... as a reward for a good rep you get time in the training room that quickly mindlocks Thievery (even for HLCs). It would also give us a huge edge on non-Guilded thieves, especially at those upper hard to train ranks. Honestly my 30th + thief trains fine with stores, it's more the repetitive mechanics that has everyone wanting new 'burglary' systems just to add variety. My personal thing is I don't mind a little drudgery in training - now I can successfully steal from more players and that's my reward.

So anyway, you complete a TASK or bin a certain amount. Choice of training rooms to ML thievery, or that trapped lock training device you mentioned, some kind of easy prize.

OR if nothing new is really on the table the quickest fix is just to add experience to stealing. Look into the ranges needed to be successful stealing items in stores within cities and make sure there aren't glaring gaps between items in required skill. That way taking a little more risk we could mind lock within one city or two rather than span the globe.

Maybe Khri Meditate (or Plunder) could specifically buff stealing experience? That way keeps the benefit thief only.

Thanks again for the attention good to know someone in charge is looking out.

>// Locksmithing training
>What mobs do NOT drop boxes that you think should? Getting those would be helpful.
What if you could buy locks to train on? Not boxes, but just trapped locks.

I would hunt you down and smooch you.

>// Debilitation training
>Didn't we have some adjustments on this not long ago, or did they not touch this ambush?

Assuming you specifically mean ambush choke? The debilitation changes did not effect it because the issues aren't really revolving around the SvS contests. The issues: 1) It cannot be re-used on a target currently under the effect 2) There is no way to track which target is currently under the effects 3) The exp reward is pitiful, and due to (1) and (2) it's impossible to spam it.

>// Backstab
>Is the exp payout on non-bipedal an issue?

For me, I'd be happy if backstab (the command and the function) just worked against all targets. It's less a literal stabbing in the back, and more a targeted attack on a vital point. It doesn't make much sense to me to only work against bipeds, and the damage/accuracy boost isn't game-breaking. It already does whatever it does in PvP, that wouldn't change. You can already duplicate this effect by hiding and doing a called shot attack (attack head, attack right eye, etc.).

Above that, I, personally, have not played with backstab much at all, so I don't know. I've never really felt like I got a lot of utility out of it though. It's like the thief-guild skill is halberds. Ya, it's great, if you want a weapon, but it only does the one thing, and it's hard to justify changes to the paradigm because it's a very narrow skill.

// thievery

At the risk of shooting myself in the foot. Thievery could indeed use a bump in exp but i don't know, this needs to be discussed in more detail. If we boost it, some sort of a throttling mechanism might be needed to account for the exp gained between shops. Maybe an approach/initial timer just for shops (not sure if technically viable). Right now it takes us roughly 30 shops worth of exp to get a solid lock and it can be a real struggle finding that many suitable locations for a specific skill range. I'd say considering all the available shops we have per province, maybe cutting it in half sounds pretty reasonable -- 10 to 15 shops for a lock. Then we have the issue with the payoff, which would need a bit of a bump up too depending on time spent per shop.

// utility

I don't know if this belongs in the current thread but i feel like utility doesn't have enough options for in-combat training (which is exp related in a way). A few of them are one time use only which means no exp at all, some of them are out of combat and purely pvp utility. It leaves not a lot of viable options for the upper end PVE. Hasten is a good one but stops training in lower ranks, after that it's a total bust IMO.

>While I agree that we could use more Utility Khri, Dampen is a useful mid-range Utility Khri in PvE, and Sagacity is one of our best defensive Khri (physical barrier), specially when combined with Prowess, and it will lock my Utility at 800 ranks by itself.

Just because the GMs are probably not super-experts on Khri, Hasten will teach you up to around 150+, Dampen is still moving me pretty well at 200+, and Sagacity should work from 200-800 ranks (duration will be bad at 200, but it'll teach).

I'd love a more direct combat application of utility, though.

>At the risk of shooting myself in the foot. Thievery could indeed use a bump in exp but i don't know, this needs to be discussed in more detail. If we boost it, some sort of a throttling mechanism might be needed to account for the exp gained between shops. Maybe an approach/initial timer just for shops (not sure if technically viable). Right now it takes us roughly 30 shops worth of exp to get a solid lock and it can be a real struggle finding that many suitable locations for a specific skill range. I'd say considering all the available shops we have per province, maybe cutting it in half sounds pretty reasonable -- 10 to 15 shops for a lock. Then we have the issue with the payoff, which would need a bit of a bump up too depending on time spent per shop.

Personally, I disagree. That's a tradeoff the player can make. If I want to stop training stealing after I lock (as most people indicate), I can. Fewer shops is better there. If I want to steal for profit, I can keep going after lock and 'lose' or 'waste' exp.

>>// Backstab

Personally, I have no problem with backstab. It feels just right to me. If it could be expanded to work on quadrupeds, that would be pretty cool.

>// Thievery
>There's a project open right now that will help address this. I'll be helping with it but it's a multi-GM project. I have no ETA at the moment. Using current systems, what do you feel would be MOST beneficial to help solve this issue right now?

An exp bump, without question. It's pretty crazy how many items I have to steal and how many shops I have to visit just to lock this 1 skill.

>//Contacts working outside of town
>Already mentioned, but this one is already on the table.

Love it

>// AoE Ability
>We had a few ideas in the wishlist thread that seem viable. I'll likely pursue them.

Thank you! This would be awesome to have something completely new to use.

>// Locksmithing training
>What mobs do NOT drop boxes that you think should? Getting those would be helpful.
>What if you could buy locks to train on? Not boxes, but just trapped locks.

Well unfortunately what is currently in game makes sense (bipedal creatures carry boxes, quadrupeds don't). The unfortunate part is that it pigeon-holes thieves into a very restrictive hunting ladder that is already pretty unforgiving at lower levels. It was very painful for me to get locksmithing ranks until I hit Orc Bandit level and above, and even then I feel like bipedal creatures just do not teach combat skills as well as quadrupeds, so we're always kind of hamstrung in that way as Thieves. Your second suggestion sounds like a great way to alleviate that.
If I could hunt things like Gryphons and Celps without having to worry about my locksmithing falling behind that would be ideal.

>//Title Reqs
>I think many are not known. I sometimes work on a google doc that has title requirements on it, but they're honestly a pain to populate into the spreadsheet.

I would honestly really love a thief title review to get them back on track. A lot of them are either broken or have ridiculously high thievery or strength reqs. IMO strength reqs on high level thief titles should really be replaced with agility reqs.

<<teeth picking with a stiletto>>

Having distinct movements with small edge and crossbows would be cool since those are sort of signature weapons we're steered to.
I'd personally like to see -

The finger game. You can juggle or throw small edge weapons back and forth between players (if you mess up maybe you get a cut? Actually losing a finger would be a pretty funny screw up)

The quick stabbing hand game, like Bishop did in the movie Aliens. 'You place your hand protectively over X players hand with a grin while drawing your stiletto!'

I also would like to 2nd the ideas I've seen to make a wilderness area 'urban' somehow (a khri?) and tie in wilderness contacts with it to find people outside cities.

Oh and the trapped locks idea is awesome. Especially if it's just among thieves. Someone already mentioned us not having a special way of producing income...

> // Locksmithing training
> What mobs do NOT drop boxes that you think should? Getting those would be helpful.

Sometimes things do drop boxes but so rarely that it's not worth it just for locksmithing. Reavers are so stingy with boxes (partly because half the things you kill in there are wind hounds that drop nothin' at all, nothin' at all). I also recall problems with box frequency with wood trolls, zombie kobolds, swamp trolls, and likely more I'm forgetting (leaving out f2p experiences, of course).

> What if you could buy locks to train on? Not boxes, but just trapped locks.

I would buy them.