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I haven't read anything concrete about how confidence works, but I read that it's better to go give yourself up after a stealing run, if you get caught? That seems really backwards to me. I've been wanted for 2-3 weeks, and even managed to do some brief shopping in the plaza, having the guard lead me to the shop. -That- should be a confidence boost! Those stupid guards don't even realize I'm the master thief they're after! Hah!
The longer you go with a warrant without getting caught for it, while ambling around town, should make up for the confidence hit you get when first caught. It's nice to learn a dab of Thievery when their gaze sweeps over you, so there's some code in place already right? If its already supposed to work like this, I don't feel it. I trained Thievery to 80 or so with lessons, while largely staying outside of Crossing. The highest my confidence got was when my combats were around 60 ranks and I was grinding Backstab in Sunfall Hub. I maybe spent a minute a day in town, selling my bundle, filling my bank, then back to my hiding hole in the wilderness. Now I spend more time in town, my confidence never goes above average, even when I don't get caught on a stealing run. Is that really just because I didn't clear my name the whole time?
MILLATHEUNDYING
NINEVAH1
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
04/24/2016 09:50 AM CDT
>>I haven't read anything concrete about how confidence works, but I read that it's better to go give yourself up after a stealing run, if you get caught?
You are confusing confidence (personal bonus to some survival skills) with guild reputation. Staying on the wanted boards will hurt your reputation with the guild, and if it goes low enough you will be hurt/killed when trying to enter any guild within the province where it is low.
>>The longer you go with a warrant without getting caught for it, while ambling around town, should make up for the confidence hit you get when first caught. It's nice to learn a dab of Thievery when their gaze sweeps over you, so there's some code in place already right? If its already supposed to work like this, I don't feel it. I trained Thievery to 80 or so with lessons, while largely staying outside of Crossing. The highest my confidence got was when my combats were around 60 ranks and I was grinding Backstab in Sunfall Hub. I maybe spent a minute a day in town, selling my bundle, filling my bank, then back to my hiding hole in the wilderness. Now I spend more time in town, my confidence never goes above average, even when I don't get caught on a stealing run. Is that really just because I didn't clear my name the whole time?
None if this has anything to do with having a warrant. Backstabbing something that is a challenge is the best (only?) way to reliably raise your confidence level. When you stop and go into town it will naturally drift down to a neutral point (higher Charisma makes the neutral point higher than average, and slow down the drifting). Stealing should, and may, raise your confidence, but it isn't enough to really make a difference. So what you are seeing is your confidence basically being ignored and sitting at neutral because you aren't doing anything to actively keep it at the top levels. Right now that means training backstabbing regularly.
Something that may also help is throwing in an attack <bodypart> from hiding while training melee weapons. It keeps my confidence at the upper levels while in combat without having to specifically use Backstab.
You are confusing confidence (personal bonus to some survival skills) with guild reputation. Staying on the wanted boards will hurt your reputation with the guild, and if it goes low enough you will be hurt/killed when trying to enter any guild within the province where it is low.
>>The longer you go with a warrant without getting caught for it, while ambling around town, should make up for the confidence hit you get when first caught. It's nice to learn a dab of Thievery when their gaze sweeps over you, so there's some code in place already right? If its already supposed to work like this, I don't feel it. I trained Thievery to 80 or so with lessons, while largely staying outside of Crossing. The highest my confidence got was when my combats were around 60 ranks and I was grinding Backstab in Sunfall Hub. I maybe spent a minute a day in town, selling my bundle, filling my bank, then back to my hiding hole in the wilderness. Now I spend more time in town, my confidence never goes above average, even when I don't get caught on a stealing run. Is that really just because I didn't clear my name the whole time?
None if this has anything to do with having a warrant. Backstabbing something that is a challenge is the best (only?) way to reliably raise your confidence level. When you stop and go into town it will naturally drift down to a neutral point (higher Charisma makes the neutral point higher than average, and slow down the drifting). Stealing should, and may, raise your confidence, but it isn't enough to really make a difference. So what you are seeing is your confidence basically being ignored and sitting at neutral because you aren't doing anything to actively keep it at the top levels. Right now that means training backstabbing regularly.
Something that may also help is throwing in an attack <bodypart> from hiding while training melee weapons. It keeps my confidence at the upper levels while in combat without having to specifically use Backstab.
MILLATHEUNDYING
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
04/24/2016 10:52 PM CDT
>>Something that may also help is throwing in an attack <bodypart> from hiding while training melee weapons.
That's what I was doing to those vipers! It was going well.
Thanks for the explanation! So I just need to be hunting more and staying in town doing other things less. Weird.
Maybe it would be interesting if it were a confidence/guild rep slider. Get a bad reputation with the guild in exchange for high confidence from evading the law... Hmmm that sounds weird too.
I've only been thievering for a month and a bit so I don't have enough experience to add anything else. I'm having fun, haven't run into anything too annoying or difficult yet apart from finding the guild hall in the first place. If there are any hints, there needs to be hints to find out where to find the hints!
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
That's what I was doing to those vipers! It was going well.
Thanks for the explanation! So I just need to be hunting more and staying in town doing other things less. Weird.
Maybe it would be interesting if it were a confidence/guild rep slider. Get a bad reputation with the guild in exchange for high confidence from evading the law... Hmmm that sounds weird too.
I've only been thievering for a month and a bit so I don't have enough experience to add anything else. I'm having fun, haven't run into anything too annoying or difficult yet apart from finding the guild hall in the first place. If there are any hints, there needs to be hints to find out where to find the hints!
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
KASHNA
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
06/28/2016 05:07 PM CDT
Training Thievery, from the very start, is the most ridiculously frustrating skill that I've experienced yet in DR.
I get caught constantly. There's no in-between of getting run-out of a shop, it's straight to jail every time. I go to jail a lot.
I succeed at stealing 4+ of one item on one trip, then get caught on the very first attempt on the next trip to that same shop for that same item with the same buffs up.
Successfully stealing multiple items from multiple shops (20 that teach "trivially", 4 that teach "acceptably" and 2 that teach "very well") STILL doesn't mind lock me.
The risk versus reward is 100% not there. I have learned more than half of my current ranks from teaching. Listening to a class is the only way that I have been able to mind lock the skill. Actively stealing is neither an efficient, nor a rewarding way to learn the stealing skill.
That line bears repeating: actively stealing is neither an efficient, nor a warding way to learn the stealing skill.
How messed up is that?
I get caught constantly. There's no in-between of getting run-out of a shop, it's straight to jail every time. I go to jail a lot.
I succeed at stealing 4+ of one item on one trip, then get caught on the very first attempt on the next trip to that same shop for that same item with the same buffs up.
Successfully stealing multiple items from multiple shops (20 that teach "trivially", 4 that teach "acceptably" and 2 that teach "very well") STILL doesn't mind lock me.
The risk versus reward is 100% not there. I have learned more than half of my current ranks from teaching. Listening to a class is the only way that I have been able to mind lock the skill. Actively stealing is neither an efficient, nor a rewarding way to learn the stealing skill.
That line bears repeating: actively stealing is neither an efficient, nor a warding way to learn the stealing skill.
How messed up is that?
JPIZ
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
06/28/2016 05:40 PM CDT
While I shared (emphasis on past tense) your frustration (though perhaps not quite to the same intensity) with the old system, I think this overstates the issues with the current system. It sounds like you need to do much more in the way of "tuning" the items that you're stealing, moving towards higher difficulty items.
If you could post some more info - guild, skills/stats, and shop/item/difficulty/quantity, I'd bet a number of folks on this board who are having less difficulty training the skill would be happy to chime in with suggestions.
(Note: I've only ever played one character that trains thievery; he's now above circle 100 so it's possible that the new system still sucks for lower-level folks. That said, the new system does address most of the issues I recall having from circles 50 - 100).
>I get caught constantly. There's no in-between of getting run-out of a shop, it's straight to jail every time. I go to jail a lot.
Getting caught constantly (regardless of whether it includes a trip to jail) means that you're doing something wrong. Possibilities:
(1) Stealing items that are too difficult (seems unlikely given what you've posted)
(2) Stealing too many of the things you do try to steal
(3) Stealing while wounded, armored, and/or burdened.
(4) Stealing prior to the stealing timer expiring
(5) Stealing with low confidence
>I succeed at stealing 4+ of one item on one trip, then get caught on the very first attempt on the next trip to that same shop for that same item with the same buffs up.
I have noticed this occasionally, but not so frequently as you're implying here. As I've tuned my script post new-system, this has decreased dramatically. Sure, with any system that includes randomness you'll occasionally roll unlucky, but I've found it reasonably easy to calibrate item quantities such that I get caught on average less than once per stealing run. See also the note above about the stealing timer, which would definitely explain these results.
>Successfully stealing multiple items from multiple shops (20 that teach "trivially", 4 that teach "acceptably" and 2 that teach "very well") STILL doesn't mind lock me.
You're putting too much weight on quantity and not enough on difficulty...and that's not that many total items anyway. I don't steal any trivial items unless there's nothing else to steal in the shop. My current run, which generally mindlocks (or close) at ~440 thievery, includes 32 items, virtually all of which train acceptably or better. The only exception is that there's nothing in the Shard herbalist that trains better than "somewhat poorly".
>Listening to a class is the only way that I have been able to mind lock the skill. Actively stealing is neither an efficient, nor a rewarding way to learn the stealing skill.
Even with all the crappiness of the old system, it was still more efficient than classes.
>actively stealing is neither an efficient, nor a warding [sic] way to learn the stealing skill.
While I can't comment on how rewarding it is to you, it's definitely much more efficient than it used to be, and certainly remains more efficient than sitting in a class. I think if you are willing to endure a bit more frustration tweaking items/quantities in your run, you'll be surprised at how efficiently it can now be trained.
If you could post some more info - guild, skills/stats, and shop/item/difficulty/quantity, I'd bet a number of folks on this board who are having less difficulty training the skill would be happy to chime in with suggestions.
(Note: I've only ever played one character that trains thievery; he's now above circle 100 so it's possible that the new system still sucks for lower-level folks. That said, the new system does address most of the issues I recall having from circles 50 - 100).
>I get caught constantly. There's no in-between of getting run-out of a shop, it's straight to jail every time. I go to jail a lot.
Getting caught constantly (regardless of whether it includes a trip to jail) means that you're doing something wrong. Possibilities:
(1) Stealing items that are too difficult (seems unlikely given what you've posted)
(2) Stealing too many of the things you do try to steal
(3) Stealing while wounded, armored, and/or burdened.
(4) Stealing prior to the stealing timer expiring
(5) Stealing with low confidence
>I succeed at stealing 4+ of one item on one trip, then get caught on the very first attempt on the next trip to that same shop for that same item with the same buffs up.
I have noticed this occasionally, but not so frequently as you're implying here. As I've tuned my script post new-system, this has decreased dramatically. Sure, with any system that includes randomness you'll occasionally roll unlucky, but I've found it reasonably easy to calibrate item quantities such that I get caught on average less than once per stealing run. See also the note above about the stealing timer, which would definitely explain these results.
>Successfully stealing multiple items from multiple shops (20 that teach "trivially", 4 that teach "acceptably" and 2 that teach "very well") STILL doesn't mind lock me.
You're putting too much weight on quantity and not enough on difficulty...and that's not that many total items anyway. I don't steal any trivial items unless there's nothing else to steal in the shop. My current run, which generally mindlocks (or close) at ~440 thievery, includes 32 items, virtually all of which train acceptably or better. The only exception is that there's nothing in the Shard herbalist that trains better than "somewhat poorly".
>Listening to a class is the only way that I have been able to mind lock the skill. Actively stealing is neither an efficient, nor a rewarding way to learn the stealing skill.
Even with all the crappiness of the old system, it was still more efficient than classes.
>actively stealing is neither an efficient, nor a warding [sic] way to learn the stealing skill.
While I can't comment on how rewarding it is to you, it's definitely much more efficient than it used to be, and certainly remains more efficient than sitting in a class. I think if you are willing to endure a bit more frustration tweaking items/quantities in your run, you'll be surprised at how efficiently it can now be trained.
ABSOLON
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
06/28/2016 07:09 PM CDT
<<Training Thievery, from the very start, is the most ridiculously frustrating skill that I've experienced yet in DR.
I find shop stealing a pleasure to train now. The only thing that's really changed from before the change is not needing to hit as many shops, so it's far, far less grindy.
<<I get caught constantly. There's no in-between of getting run-out of a shop, it's straight to jail every time. I go to jail a lot.
<<(1) Stealing items that are too difficult (seems unlikely given what you've posted)
<<(2) Stealing too many of the things you do try to steal
<<(3) Stealing while wounded, armored, and/or burdened.
<<(4) Stealing prior to the stealing timer expiring
<<(5) Stealing with low confidence
(6) Getting caught too many times within a given timeframe.
Another way to put this is don't steal until you get caught in every shop unless you want a one way ticket to jail.
<<Successfully stealing multiple items from multiple shops (20 that teach "trivially", 4 that teach "acceptably" and 2 that teach "very well") STILL doesn't mind lock me.
It takes me 7 shops of mostly acceptable items per shop depending on the item to mind lock. Aside from getting caught once about one out of every 3 or 4 runs, most runs are clean sweeps with no charges. Here's my shops and items in order with 204 ranks using Plunder and Darken.
-Artificer's - slivers (acceptable) x 6
-Duratines - vial (acceptable and profitable) x 6
-Weapon - dagger (trival and profitable) x 8
-Armor - cowl (acceptable and profitable) x 3
-Berolt's - razor (acceptable) x 6
-Jeweler's - pendant (acceptable) x 6
-Clothing - shawl (acceptable) x 4-6 depending on when it locks me. Usually it locks after 5 or 6.
(-Chizili's - gloves (acceptable) x 1-2 only if needed to top up to mind lock.)
<<The risk versus reward is 100% not there.
It absolutely is there. A single manual run of the above which takes about 8 minutes nets me a mind locked thievery skill and about 2 gold in profits. (Plus, I always make sure to steal from the veteran each run just for the ~4 gold in profits even though it doesn't teach. The beggar and minstrel too if I happen to run across them, but they don't pay as well.)
The key is to figure out the safe cut off point for each item so you minimize the risk of getting caught. Each of the ranges of difficulty is a fairly significant range, so you might be able to steal 6 of one acceptable item but only 2 or 3 of another. E.g. I can always steal 6 acceptable pendants, but will often get caught on the fourth acceptable cowl. And when I do get caught on a stealing run it is most often the third cowl, but I've decided that risk is worth the effort. I never get instantly put in jail because I never get caught more than once over the course of a run and I don't stick around in the shop after getting caught.
Once you figure out a run similar to what I have above you'll find that thievery goes very fast and you'll only need to tweak it incrementally as you gain ranks. E.g. if an item becomes trivial then see if there's a good item that you can switch to.
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I find shop stealing a pleasure to train now. The only thing that's really changed from before the change is not needing to hit as many shops, so it's far, far less grindy.
<<I get caught constantly. There's no in-between of getting run-out of a shop, it's straight to jail every time. I go to jail a lot.
<<(1) Stealing items that are too difficult (seems unlikely given what you've posted)
<<(2) Stealing too many of the things you do try to steal
<<(3) Stealing while wounded, armored, and/or burdened.
<<(4) Stealing prior to the stealing timer expiring
<<(5) Stealing with low confidence
(6) Getting caught too many times within a given timeframe.
Another way to put this is don't steal until you get caught in every shop unless you want a one way ticket to jail.
<<Successfully stealing multiple items from multiple shops (20 that teach "trivially", 4 that teach "acceptably" and 2 that teach "very well") STILL doesn't mind lock me.
It takes me 7 shops of mostly acceptable items per shop depending on the item to mind lock. Aside from getting caught once about one out of every 3 or 4 runs, most runs are clean sweeps with no charges. Here's my shops and items in order with 204 ranks using Plunder and Darken.
-Artificer's - slivers (acceptable) x 6
-Duratines - vial (acceptable and profitable) x 6
-Weapon - dagger (trival and profitable) x 8
-Armor - cowl (acceptable and profitable) x 3
-Berolt's - razor (acceptable) x 6
-Jeweler's - pendant (acceptable) x 6
-Clothing - shawl (acceptable) x 4-6 depending on when it locks me. Usually it locks after 5 or 6.
(-Chizili's - gloves (acceptable) x 1-2 only if needed to top up to mind lock.)
<<The risk versus reward is 100% not there.
It absolutely is there. A single manual run of the above which takes about 8 minutes nets me a mind locked thievery skill and about 2 gold in profits. (Plus, I always make sure to steal from the veteran each run just for the ~4 gold in profits even though it doesn't teach. The beggar and minstrel too if I happen to run across them, but they don't pay as well.)
The key is to figure out the safe cut off point for each item so you minimize the risk of getting caught. Each of the ranges of difficulty is a fairly significant range, so you might be able to steal 6 of one acceptable item but only 2 or 3 of another. E.g. I can always steal 6 acceptable pendants, but will often get caught on the fourth acceptable cowl. And when I do get caught on a stealing run it is most often the third cowl, but I've decided that risk is worth the effort. I never get instantly put in jail because I never get caught more than once over the course of a run and I don't stick around in the shop after getting caught.
Once you figure out a run similar to what I have above you'll find that thievery goes very fast and you'll only need to tweak it incrementally as you gain ranks. E.g. if an item becomes trivial then see if there's a good item that you can switch to.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
ABSOLON
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
06/28/2016 07:17 PM CDT
Oh, on the off chance your stealing experience is with a non-thief...
I'm pretty sure other non-thieves have said that there's a noticeably smaller amount of items that non-thieves can steal before getting caught. E.g. a thief might be able to steal 6 items easily, but a non-thief can usually only steal 2 or 3 given equivalent ranks. I suspect this is mostly due to the various stackable buffs that thieves get to stealing.
It doesn't change my advice, however, since it would just require visiting more shops and stealing less items per shop.
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I'm pretty sure other non-thieves have said that there's a noticeably smaller amount of items that non-thieves can steal before getting caught. E.g. a thief might be able to steal 6 items easily, but a non-thief can usually only steal 2 or 3 given equivalent ranks. I suspect this is mostly due to the various stackable buffs that thieves get to stealing.
It doesn't change my advice, however, since it would just require visiting more shops and stealing less items per shop.
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SHELTIM
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
06/28/2016 09:16 PM CDT
I'm a new thief and experiencing some of the growing pains mentioned here. As I've learned what (and how much) I can and cannot steal, I've found my reputation tanked to the point I can't circle. I've done a half dozen tasks for the beggar and bin everything I steal, but I can't detect any progress in recovering my reputation. Is that normal?
ABSOLON
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
06/29/2016 01:53 AM CDT
If you've tanked your reputation it can take weeks for it to recover. I believe that it also will not recover if you have any warrants in the respective province. The good news is that you don't appear to have tanked it to the level of being instantly killed upon entering the guild, so you can still bin stuff and don't have to just wait it out.
As far as starting thieves go, just stick with STEAL WATER IN VAT at Chizili's. I tested this a couple months ago with a brand new thief who had just joined the guild and I was able to easily steal 8+ water from Chizili's. I think it wasn't until the 13th attempt that I got the warning message about backing off. Once you have a couple ranks under your belt you can STEAL CHARCOAL at Berolt's, and by 20 ranks or so you should be able to start adding in chamomile, lavender, or sage from Durantine's.
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As far as starting thieves go, just stick with STEAL WATER IN VAT at Chizili's. I tested this a couple months ago with a brand new thief who had just joined the guild and I was able to easily steal 8+ water from Chizili's. I think it wasn't until the 13th attempt that I got the warning message about backing off. Once you have a couple ranks under your belt you can STEAL CHARCOAL at Berolt's, and by 20 ranks or so you should be able to start adding in chamomile, lavender, or sage from Durantine's.
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ABSOLON
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
06/29/2016 04:59 AM CDT
<<I've found my reputation tanked to the point I can't circle. I've done a half dozen tasks for the beggar and bin everything I steal, but I can't detect any progress in recovering my reputation. Is that normal?
Just wanted to add a binning related suggestion I just thought of. Lay low in the province you have bad reputation in, and do your stealing runs in another province. Now that you're more familiar with how stealing works and it should be easier to figure out a productive run in the new province without tanking your reputation there. Then, instead of binning the items in the second province, run them to the bin in the province with your bad rep. This will avoid further tanking of your reputation in the first province due to warrants and help speed up the reputation gain by still binning stuff.
E.g. if you tanked zoluren rep then do your stealing runs in haven and bin the items in the crossing.
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Just wanted to add a binning related suggestion I just thought of. Lay low in the province you have bad reputation in, and do your stealing runs in another province. Now that you're more familiar with how stealing works and it should be easier to figure out a productive run in the new province without tanking your reputation there. Then, instead of binning the items in the second province, run them to the bin in the province with your bad rep. This will avoid further tanking of your reputation in the first province due to warrants and help speed up the reputation gain by still binning stuff.
E.g. if you tanked zoluren rep then do your stealing runs in haven and bin the items in the crossing.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
KASHNA
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
06/29/2016 10:46 PM CDT
I only steal according to the list, always starting with the easiest items first and never stealing anything that is "extremely difficult". It's as a thief with 45 ranks. I wait a minimum of 90 minutes between attempts, heal up, remove armor and work from hiding. I only go above 2 items if it's "somewhat poorly" or easier.
The problem that I'm running into is that it looks like this system is built rather alike unto hunting... at the lower levels it's a very tight range where you can only learn so much off of a certain item before having to move up... meaning, your chances to succeed on something that teaches well only lasts for a short bit, thus you either learn crap by going for "poorly" and worse items... or get caught a ton by going for stuff that's too difficult since there isn't much in-between. I can't learn off of water or roses, but can only succeed on the Small Rosewood Box about 70% of the time (General Store) and the Chalice from the Cleric Shop is now up to about a 60% chance. Problem is, if I go any easier than either of those, I end up with the Coin Purse or Lavender, both of which are trivial.
My average run through... Bard Shop, General Store, Cleric Shop, and Bathhouse (no more Florist or Alchemist - bad ranges there right now), nets me... 7/34. Once every 90 minutes.
At the lower levels there's next to nothing available that will teach thievery. Do we really have to risk jail 30+ times just to mind lock the skill once? That seems quite excessive.
The problem that I'm running into is that it looks like this system is built rather alike unto hunting... at the lower levels it's a very tight range where you can only learn so much off of a certain item before having to move up... meaning, your chances to succeed on something that teaches well only lasts for a short bit, thus you either learn crap by going for "poorly" and worse items... or get caught a ton by going for stuff that's too difficult since there isn't much in-between. I can't learn off of water or roses, but can only succeed on the Small Rosewood Box about 70% of the time (General Store) and the Chalice from the Cleric Shop is now up to about a 60% chance. Problem is, if I go any easier than either of those, I end up with the Coin Purse or Lavender, both of which are trivial.
My average run through... Bard Shop, General Store, Cleric Shop, and Bathhouse (no more Florist or Alchemist - bad ranges there right now), nets me... 7/34. Once every 90 minutes.
At the lower levels there's next to nothing available that will teach thievery. Do we really have to risk jail 30+ times just to mind lock the skill once? That seems quite excessive.
KASHNA
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
06/29/2016 10:55 PM CDT
p.s. I also Khri up, of course, if I have the time I'll go on a backstab spree for confidence, and try to hit as many shops as possible... but for now, the locksmith's, cobbler, and gem shop are each just a BIT too hard, yet... so I truly am limited to just these few shops at the moment... where everything is just way too hard or way too easy. Quite a bother, really.
ABSOLON
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
06/30/2016 02:15 AM CDT
<<I only steal according to the list,
What list? Are you using the wiki stealing lists? Those are outdated, since shop stealing underwent a big change around a month or so ago. Add to that fact that a lot of crossing area shops had their inventory completely changed so that list isn't very complete.
<<My average run through... Bard Shop, General Store, Cleric Shop, and Bathhouse (no more Florist or Alchemist - bad ranges there right now), nets me... 7/34
There is definitely something wrong with what you're doing. My guess is relying on an outdated list to pick items from. You should be able to steal from a lot more shops and even 4 shops should net you more than 7/34. 4 shops worth of items that are in range should also be netting you around 15-20/34 depending on the item.
The best way to find items that work best for you is to use MARK in each shop to find items that are in your range. You only get 3 MARK attempts every 60 minutes, so it can take a while to go through enough items to find one in your range, but once you find one it will last a long time.
<<Once every 90 minutes.
The shop timer is 60 minutes not 90, so you don't have to wait that long between runs. Minor detail, but it will help over the long term.
<<I go any easier than either of those, I end up with the Coin Purse or Lavender, both of which are trivial.
Trivial isn't necessarily a bad thing if it nets you experience and there's no decent acceptable item. Also, just taking a glance over the cleric shop on the wiki as an example, there are several items that look possible to be in between lavender and chalices in difficulty. E.g. the blue-grey plume feather, incense, sandals, and skullcap. Try marking those and seeing how difficult they are.
<<but for now, the locksmith's, cobbler, and gem shop are each just a BIT too hard, yet... so I truly am limited to just these few shops at the moment...
Aside from trying to mark a few of the cheapest items in game at these shops just to see, there are a lot more shops in Crossing than the ones you've listed. There's the clothing shop, the haberdashery, the artificer, the tannery, the herbalist, the weaponry, and the armory. I may have missed a few. There's also wolf clan, knife clan, and during the day all the arthe dale shops.
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What list? Are you using the wiki stealing lists? Those are outdated, since shop stealing underwent a big change around a month or so ago. Add to that fact that a lot of crossing area shops had their inventory completely changed so that list isn't very complete.
<<My average run through... Bard Shop, General Store, Cleric Shop, and Bathhouse (no more Florist or Alchemist - bad ranges there right now), nets me... 7/34
There is definitely something wrong with what you're doing. My guess is relying on an outdated list to pick items from. You should be able to steal from a lot more shops and even 4 shops should net you more than 7/34. 4 shops worth of items that are in range should also be netting you around 15-20/34 depending on the item.
The best way to find items that work best for you is to use MARK in each shop to find items that are in your range. You only get 3 MARK attempts every 60 minutes, so it can take a while to go through enough items to find one in your range, but once you find one it will last a long time.
<<Once every 90 minutes.
The shop timer is 60 minutes not 90, so you don't have to wait that long between runs. Minor detail, but it will help over the long term.
<<I go any easier than either of those, I end up with the Coin Purse or Lavender, both of which are trivial.
Trivial isn't necessarily a bad thing if it nets you experience and there's no decent acceptable item. Also, just taking a glance over the cleric shop on the wiki as an example, there are several items that look possible to be in between lavender and chalices in difficulty. E.g. the blue-grey plume feather, incense, sandals, and skullcap. Try marking those and seeing how difficult they are.
<<but for now, the locksmith's, cobbler, and gem shop are each just a BIT too hard, yet... so I truly am limited to just these few shops at the moment...
Aside from trying to mark a few of the cheapest items in game at these shops just to see, there are a lot more shops in Crossing than the ones you've listed. There's the clothing shop, the haberdashery, the artificer, the tannery, the herbalist, the weaponry, and the armory. I may have missed a few. There's also wolf clan, knife clan, and during the day all the arthe dale shops.
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ABSOLON
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
06/30/2016 02:18 AM CDT
P.S. I'm adding the outdated tag to those stealing list pages so others don't fall into the trap of relying on them with the new systems.
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DEFOL
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
06/30/2016 02:29 AM CDT
<< I only steal according to the list, always starting with the easiest items first and never stealing anything that is "extremely difficult".
What do you mean starting from the easiest item first. Just pick something that is "You learned acceptably from this theft." and repeatedly steal that single item up to 5 or 6 times or what ever works best for your situation.
What do you mean starting from the easiest item first. Just pick something that is "You learned acceptably from this theft." and repeatedly steal that single item up to 5 or 6 times or what ever works best for your situation.
ABSOLON
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
06/30/2016 02:41 AM CDT
<<I only go above 2 items if it's "somewhat poorly" or easier.
Missed this. This is probably a big reason why you aren't seeing much experience. Experience per item goes up with each successive item stolen in a shop. So your first couple items don't tech very much unless they're difficult to begin with. The third teaches a bit better, and so on. The best balance I've found is to find an acceptable item and steal it at least four times depending on how difficult it is in the acceptable range. Most acceptable items can be stolen six times which nets about 5/34. If I have to rely on a trivial item, then I usually steal around 8 times and that nets around 3-4/34. I don't both with more difficult items.
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Missed this. This is probably a big reason why you aren't seeing much experience. Experience per item goes up with each successive item stolen in a shop. So your first couple items don't tech very much unless they're difficult to begin with. The third teaches a bit better, and so on. The best balance I've found is to find an acceptable item and steal it at least four times depending on how difficult it is in the acceptable range. Most acceptable items can be stolen six times which nets about 5/34. If I have to rely on a trivial item, then I usually steal around 8 times and that nets around 3-4/34. I don't both with more difficult items.
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KASHNA
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
06/30/2016 10:39 AM CDT
I noticed that this morning - thank you for doing so. I'll start making a much heavier use of MARK. It looks like I can only get 2 MARK off per shop right now, so... time to make a spreadsheet and play the patience game.
ABSOLON
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
06/30/2016 11:12 AM CDT
FWIW, you probably don't need a full on spreadsheet. At the very least not for the whole shop inventory. Just pick an item that looks to be around the price you know you can steal and check the items that are around that level. Here's an example of what my marks of several of my items look like, so you can see what to look for in the MARK.
This is the easiest item I use in my run. It also teaches the worst per shop, and I will be looking for an item to replace it soon. I haven't yet, because it still nets me a decent profit at the pawnshop, and I'm being lazy about it. I steal 8 of them, but can stretch it up to 10 or even 12 if I feel like it.
Without buffs:
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a wide-bladed dagger.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should not prove difficult for you.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it should not prove too difficult.
You've stolen in this store recently, and the shop clerk has a closer eye on you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
With buffs:
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a wide-bladed dagger.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should be trivial for one of your skills.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it should be trivial to avoid attention.
You've stolen in this store recently, and the shop clerk has a closer eye on you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
You learned somewhat poorly from this theft.
This item is on the easier side for me, but still teaches well. It will be the next one to be updated after the one above.
Without buffs:
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a razor.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should not prove difficult for you.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it should not prove too difficult.
You've stolen in this store recently, and the merchant Berolt has a closer eye on you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
With buffs:
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a razor.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should be trivial for one of your skills.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it should be trivial to avoid attention.
You've stolen in this store recently, and the merchant Berolt has a closer eye on you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
You learned acceptably from this theft.
This item is right in the pocket for me. I steal 6 every time and can't really get away with more without a noticeable increase in risk.
Without buffs:
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a pendant.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should be more likely liftable than not.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it's about even odds.
You've stolen in this store recently, and Grisgonda has a closer eye on you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
With buffs:
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a pendant.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should be trivial for one of your skills.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it should be easy to avoid attention.
You've stolen in this store recently, and Grisgonda has a closer eye on you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
You learned acceptably from this theft.
This item is the hardest in my run. I can steal up to 4, although 3 is safer. Note that aside from the first item, this actually returns a bit less experience per shop than the easier items due to the fewer number of steals. It's for this reason that I don't go for more difficult items.
Without buffs:
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a rugged leather cowl.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should be more likely liftable than not.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it'll be troublesome to be unnoticed.
You've stolen in this store recently, and it hinders your chances slightly.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
With buffs:
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a rugged leather cowl.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should be an easy target for you.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it should be possible.
You've stolen in this store recently, but it shouldn't really affect you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
You learned acceptably from this theft.
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This is the easiest item I use in my run. It also teaches the worst per shop, and I will be looking for an item to replace it soon. I haven't yet, because it still nets me a decent profit at the pawnshop, and I'm being lazy about it. I steal 8 of them, but can stretch it up to 10 or even 12 if I feel like it.
Without buffs:
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a wide-bladed dagger.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should not prove difficult for you.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it should not prove too difficult.
You've stolen in this store recently, and the shop clerk has a closer eye on you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
With buffs:
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a wide-bladed dagger.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should be trivial for one of your skills.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it should be trivial to avoid attention.
You've stolen in this store recently, and the shop clerk has a closer eye on you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
You learned somewhat poorly from this theft.
This item is on the easier side for me, but still teaches well. It will be the next one to be updated after the one above.
Without buffs:
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a razor.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should not prove difficult for you.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it should not prove too difficult.
You've stolen in this store recently, and the merchant Berolt has a closer eye on you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
With buffs:
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a razor.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should be trivial for one of your skills.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it should be trivial to avoid attention.
You've stolen in this store recently, and the merchant Berolt has a closer eye on you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
You learned acceptably from this theft.
This item is right in the pocket for me. I steal 6 every time and can't really get away with more without a noticeable increase in risk.
Without buffs:
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a pendant.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should be more likely liftable than not.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it's about even odds.
You've stolen in this store recently, and Grisgonda has a closer eye on you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
With buffs:
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a pendant.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should be trivial for one of your skills.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it should be easy to avoid attention.
You've stolen in this store recently, and Grisgonda has a closer eye on you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
You learned acceptably from this theft.
This item is the hardest in my run. I can steal up to 4, although 3 is safer. Note that aside from the first item, this actually returns a bit less experience per shop than the easier items due to the fewer number of steals. It's for this reason that I don't go for more difficult items.
Without buffs:
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a rugged leather cowl.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should be more likely liftable than not.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it'll be troublesome to be unnoticed.
You've stolen in this store recently, and it hinders your chances slightly.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
With buffs:
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a rugged leather cowl.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should be an easy target for you.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it should be possible.
You've stolen in this store recently, but it shouldn't really affect you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
You learned acceptably from this theft.
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BLAYD
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
06/30/2016 01:22 PM CDT
Excellent information thank you. I have a fairly new Thief and it is hard figuring this out without Elanthipedia to rely on anymore.
KASHNA
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
07/01/2016 01:33 PM CDT
Wow.. I've never seen marks so easy except on water.
Thank you for sharing what I should be on the lookout for, that'll help a lot.
Thank you for sharing what I should be on the lookout for, that'll help a lot.
MILLATHEUNDYING
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
07/21/2016 11:32 AM CDT
Can we still complain about things here? If so, would it be possible to update stealing as one of the things that gives a warning for going over the item limit?
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
ABSOLON
Re: Stab it into a Pulpy Mess - Current Thief Woes
07/21/2016 03:26 PM CDT
<<Can we still complain about things here? If so, would it be possible to update stealing as one of the things that gives a warning for going over the item limit?
Heh, the ultimate arrest.
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Heh, the ultimate arrest.
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