Pretty much as soon as 3.0 dropped, I've been unhappy with what happened to MMs. I've been stewing over posting about it for a while, and I think it's time to finally air my grievances. Moon Mages were completely screwed in the 3.0 conversion, and from some of the conversations I've had, I know I'm not alone in this thought. Taken completely in isolation, several of the MM changes where barely tolerable as they are, but when put in the context of the rest of the guilds, are downright nonsense. I play a MM and a Bard in 3.0, so my assessments will based on those comparisons. Yes, I am comparing one guild to another, and no I don't care because this is a game and balance is a thing. However, I am going to try to primarily focus on the aspects that are supposed to make a Moon Mage unique. Let me elaborate:


Predictions: Highlighting this one first, and at length, since it is supposedly our signature ability.

MMs guild ability is predictions, the ability to potentially buff any skill. Pre 3.0, you had a chance to mispredict and hit the wrong skill, which was rare, but regardless still was most likely a positive prediction. In 3.0 you still have to possibility to mispredict, but now there is a VERY HIGH chance you are going to curse. I know this is supposed to improve with tool bonding, but that is not happening. I am a TF player and I predict constantly and still see a roughly 50% curse rate. In addition to that, prediction strength has been drastically reduced. For any who want to question my predict rate, let me tell you my script involves observing every 120 seconds, +30 if the timer hasn't elapsed yet, observing on sun during the day and magpie at night, and predicting on survival, offense, and defense as soon as a pool is full (which is survival, since sun and magpie both fill it). And as I said, I'm a TF player so that is 24/7. I've done a lot of predictions. And, to give you an example, let me predict analyze right now...

predict anal
Your masterful awareness brings the webs of fate to life as a dynamic overlay on reality. A few images materialize before your mind's eye and you pick out the following:

A translucent azure moonblade that shifts into a bow and arrow. It seems to vanish almost immediately. An Elothean man stands immediately before you. Something about him seems strangely familiar.

A translucent azure tree that shifts into a lock. It shimmers and fades from view. An Elothean man stands immediately before you. Something about him seems strangely familiar.

Roundtime: 6 sec.

As I said, I predict when survival is at full pool. You will see that I have two active predictions, both happen to be positive at the moment (this is not regularly the case), but notice they are both translucent, which is the lowest possible strength, and are both at the second lowest to lowest possible duration. On a full pool. I will say that at the moment my Astrology learning rate is almost cleared, which means I'm pretty much at the longest point in my loop since my last predictions, so the duration may or may not be in an acceptable range, but as far as I know duration doesn't decrease with time, and lowest strength predictions on a full pool at my level is unacceptable. Some further data:

analyze my bones
You turn your bones about, carefully evaluating the craftsmanship.

The Krr-tich is notably off-balanced.
The Sek-rith is notably off-balanced.
The symbols on the Moon Sphere are nearly impossible to differentiate though the weighting of the bone is fair.
The lacquer unevenly coats the Sun Disk, which is slightly off-balance.
The bones are somewhat new.
They appear to have seen great use.
The overall craftsmanship is poor and the bones should prove rather susceptible to damage.

Recognizing the investiture as your own, you cautiously probe the bones with your prophetic talent.

A delicate conduit of probability flows through the Krr-tich.
A small conduit of probability flows through the Sek-rith.
A modest conduit of probability flows through the Moon Sphere.
A small conduit of probability flows through the Sun Disk.
Roundtime: 10 sec.
R>

These were fest raffle bones. Very poor quality with the conversion, for one. But the quality isn't really what I want to highlight. You will also see they have seen great use, which should indicate a somewhat high bonding rate, I would hope. So what accounts for my terribly weak predictions and high curse rate? Astrology: 982, just fyi.

Also toss in the fact that enchanting is being removed as a guild only ability. I'm kind of sore, but not especially, on that point. I'm just saying, it's one less thing we had going for us.

Now, from what I've seen from playing a 3.0 bard, they have spells to buff pretty much every practical skill. Toss a ranger in and you've got all your bases covered. They can do this without the need to fill a pool, the chance to hit the wrong skill, or the chance to curse. So the only difference is the MM has the option to intentionally curse, which is a purely PvP ability. From what I understand, having an ability that is only useful in PvP is not a design goal.


Training:
Prior to 3.0, the primary magic trainer for MMs was Seal of Deflection. This spell went away, for some reason I'm not sure of. In it's place we now have several magics to train, but no adequate spell distribution to train them effectively, at least not at the level one would expect from a magic primary guild. With the exception of SoV and SLS, every cyclic we have trains Utility. SoV is so restricted as far as what you can do while under it's effect that it's barely useable, as far as training goes. SLS is only castable at night, despite the fact that it's based on stars which are always in the sky (still waiting on a logical explanation for that one). TKS was the best TM trainer pre 3.0, but was nerfed into worthlessness, and now SLS is the only TM trainer worth a damn (at my ranks), and as previously mentioned, is only castable at night. Mind Shout is the only debilitation trainer worth a damn (at my ranks), and requires a moon. And as every Moon Mage has been acutely aware of recently, moons are a rare commodity at times. Is that normally the case, no. But is it an issue, yes.

Now, compare that to a bard who has a cyclic for every skill, some of which train multiple skills. I know bards are an extreme case as far as cyclics go, but I know a couple other guilds have cyclics spread across multiple skills.

Moon Mage training is wildly inconsistent, being based on so many conditions. One day I will look at my active skills and see a fair amount training, the next day I will see half as many training, whether it be because it's the time of day or moons are down or whatever. I will say that pre 3.0, MMs had it good. I would always have 20-22 skills above 10/34 without much effort, and I know most other guilds couldn't compete with that. In 3.0, I have seen several other guilds post up field exp with 25-30 skills above 10/34. I can still hit 20-22 skills above 10/34, but it is far more inconsistent, now that my primary trainers have all the restrictions. A balance needs to be struck there.


Combat: MMs are weapon and armor tert, so training combat is extremely slow. Yes, I understand Moon Mages are not a combat guild. But this is a game, and throw whatever lore you want at me, players should still be able to use any play style they want, to some extent. MM TM spells are extremely weak. The only TM spell we have that is somewhat on par with other TM spells is SLS, which has the aforementioned illogical requirement of being only usable at night. MMs also have zero non-spell based combat abilities, as for example bards do, who are also low on the combat skill tree (secondary/tertiary).


Spells: Probably one of the sorest points for me personally. I haven't made my dislike of teleologic sorcery a secret. Yes, I don't really think any of the spells are all that useful, with a lot of their functionality only being PvP oriented. But my main issue is that we actually lost spells in the process. I would have been completely okay if these were added on in addition to what we already had. But the fact that we lost spells which were replaced with these limited use, high cost, permanent penalty spells is unacceptable.


So, in practice, MMs have really become pigeonholed as only being stand out for travel services in 3.0. I'm personally not very happy being a glorified taxi service. I have been a die hard MM fan since I first discovered DR way back when, and they have always been my go-to guild, but I am completely disgusted with them in 3.0. I was disgusted with them on their own, but when I started playing my Bard a bit more, oh man did it become intolerable. Yes, I am a TF player, so I am admittedly more concerned about mechanics then lore, but this is a game, and those two should be at least equal. And some of what I addressed doesn't even have a valid lore explanation.


So, rather then this being a complete bitchfest, let me offer some constructive feedback.

Remove the nighttime restriction from SLS. Stars are in the sky regardless of time of day. There is no logical or lore-based reason for this restriction. If anyone can provide me a valid one, I will concede. If not, change this.

Fix predictions. Eliminate the ability to mis-predict completely, at the very least at a certain skill level. Restore the prediction strength to what it was pre-3.0, so it is unequivocally stronger then anything another guild can produce with a simple spell, to offset the chance to curse and to cement that as our guild ability, and fix the bonding rate/curse chance.

Remove the chance of unavoidable death in the Ways. If I'm going to be relegated to offer limo services, I can't even do that because there's a chance I'll just randomly die in doing so, regardless of my skill.


And for the people who are inevitably going to tell me that if I don't like my moon mage anymore to just go play my bard, don't worry, I'm gonna. Just wanted to provide some feedback on why, and to let the GMs know that, at least in TF, there is a pretty consistent dissatisfaction with what has happened to MMs in 3.0.

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Chatter[Sava] well I bled all night and didn't become diseased
Chatter[Tincan] That's what she said?

>>Predictions

What you're describing doesn't match with what I'd expect to see. You'll need a GM to watch to see what's going on. My schedule is going to be super busy (And nights anyhow) for the next few days, but if you can flag a GM down just have them watch you do a few predictions as you normally would. Make sure they have their guild debug setting turned out and have them send me that info. I'll look over it and see if I can track down what's going wrong.

As a copy of you with a copy of your bones with a full pool off the Welkin:

>align evasion
You focus internally and align yourself for a prediction on Evasion.
>roll bones at raesh
You cast your bones before you.

The Krr-tich bounces several times and lands pointing directly towards you.
The Sek-rith skitters across the ground and rests pointing directly towards you.
The Moon Sphere coming to stop with the top face depicting an acrobat.
The Sun Disk lands white side up.
You gather your bones back up.
Roundtime: 10 sec.

>pred analyze raesh
Your masterful awareness brings the webs of fate to life as a dynamic overlay on reality. A few images materialize before your mind's eye and you pick out the following:

A vivid aquamarine tree that disappears and is replaced by an acrobat. It hangs in the air a moment before fading from sight. An Elothean man stands in the background, watching.

Roundtime: 9 sec.

That's literally the first prediction I did in that set up, and that seems much more like the expected result.

As for the bones themselves, it looks like they're bonding is coming along quite well (Though the power bonding is notably lagging).

>>Training

Most of this looks like it comes down to complaints about the inbalance between EXP between normal spells and cyclics. This is already a problem we've acknowledged and isn't specific to just Moon Mages. It will be balanced out.

>>Fix predictions. Eliminate the ability to mis-predict completely, at the very least at a certain skill level. Restore the prediction strength to what it was pre-3.0, so it is unequivocally stronger then anything another guild can produce with a simple spell, to offset the chance to curse and to cement that as our guild ability, and fix the bonding rate/curse chance.

The cap is higher than the cap from spells, specifically for the reasons listed (Though somewhat lower than it was in 2.0 where it could literally more than double the current spell cap). The rest simply isn't going to happen - you'd end up with an extremely imbalanced ability that I'd have to nerf into a shallow shadow of itself to retain any semblance of balance.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

>>The threads of prophecy respond sluggishly to your efforts, as if already strained.

You already had a prediction on that skill and they merged. The same thing happened in 2.0, it just lets you know it happened now.

>>I hope that this does not mean cyclic training will get a nerf. At the moment, the few cyclics I do have, when I can use them, are the only thing keeping me even remotely competitive training-wise. I'd much rather see regular spells teach a bit better.

That's part of why we haven't adjusted it yet. I think the general feeling is that non-cyclics aren't teaching as well as we'd like, and cyclics are teaching too well. It's figuring out where that middle ground is (And also making sure what's going on isn't the result of bugs before we start tweaking core numbers).

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

At least MMs are survival secondary.

You have TM as a 'weapon' skill and learn it at a primary rate. While this may not be as ideal to some as being weapon primary and having a variety of choices, at least you can learn a damage dealing skill at a primary rate. The parry skill is worthless so the only real defense you're learning at tertiary rates are armor and shield.

Being survival secondary you can learn stealth/perception/evasion just as fast as any Barbarian in the game. And with the lack of options for high level hunting and a broader range of learning skills for these critters, everyone will be stuck hunting the same critters for years.

You can travel in a whim. That alone is a great enough reason to play a Moon Mage IMO, and teleporting is just one of many advantages MMs have over other guilds.

Sure, maybe with the release of 3.0 other guilds have some new hax that has seen the light of day, but until 3.0 no guild, I repeat, no guild was as fully and diversely developed as Moon Mages.

---

Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

Learning shield at a tert rate is a much bigger problem in 3.0 since you can no longer get by on evasion alone. And relying on TM as your weapon skill can get you in some tight spots when you inevitably run out of mana, and thus have no more weapon, while your opponent is free to whack away at you.

>> You can travel in a whim. That alone is a great enough reason to play a Moon Mage IMO

I agree, and for a long time I said the exact same thing. However it seems like post 3.0, travel is the ONLY reason to play a MM.

>> and teleporting is just one of many advantages MMs have over other guilds

And this is where I struggle to think of what advantages we have left. Changes to the system and other guilds new buffs have diminished the value of predictions. Enchanting is general use now. Hit up elanthipedia and look at the guild abilities list. We have power perception (whee) and travel left exclusive to us. Backtrace is only good against other MMs. Align is tied to prediction. Time Sense, again, whee.

>> but until 3.0 no guild, I repeat, no guild was as fully and diversely developed as Moon Mages

Yea, I agree with that. Granted, I've only tasted a couple of guilds in 3.0 so far, but from what I see, the scale has now tipped the other way in many regards.

I've been putting more thought into it today, and I'm starting to feel like what it's really come down to is that 3.0 Moon Mages have gone in a new direction from what they used to be, and that new direction isn't one that agrees with me. All the powerful offensive spells, and our most powerful ability, now have heavy restrictions, conditions, and penalties, and many of the design changes are lore, RP, and niche based. Playing in TF, I think we tend to have a more conservative approach to the game, where we try to minimize risk and even out training arcs. The new MM design just doesn't really mix well with that approach, unless you simply don't use the majority of what makes them a unique guild. And then, what's the point?

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Chatter[Sava] well I bled all night and didn't become diseased
Chatter[Tincan] That's what she said?

>>I dont know how to argue against this. It's pretty obvious that tertiary weapons and armor train extremely slow, at least at the end game.

>Yeah, I don't think anyone is disputing that. But the point was that this hasn't changed in 3.0 and was always an issue for moon mages.

Plus, doesn't this just mean you move up the combat ladder slower than other guilds? I know I feel like I've been hunting the same mobs since forever as a Necro, but it's not like my 300 light edge is worse than a barbarian's 300 light edge. It's just that the barbarian might be 40 circles under me.

---

The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).

>> I think the honest answer is if you want to play a powerful character, you dont play a moonmage

That's the conclusion I'm coming to. And it saddens me, because that used to not be the case.

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Chatter[Sava] well I bled all night and didn't become diseased
Chatter[Tincan] That's what she said?

>> That's the conclusion I'm coming to. And it saddens me, because that used to not be the case.

It also has a lot to do with playability issues. Why put all of these penalties on spells/skills when their is no offset/bonus in the ability?

Cage of Light: Moon based. Is it more powerful to offset? Nope. (see every other barrier spell just as good w/ no strings)
Moonblade: Moon based. See above. Actually it's a terrible spell.
IOTS: Terrible.
Astral: Travel: (JJ really negates this) Chance of instant death, can never hold expensive scrolls.
Mind shout: Moonbeam (requires moon) see every other AOE stun
Teleo Spells: "Meh" spells. Destroys prediction in order to use them.

Prediction: 50/50 curse chance with storebought tools. Unable to create tools in foreseeable future.
Enchanting: Gone
Astral guides: Gone
CJs: Gone

So yeah, I definitely feel his pain.

>>Enchanting: Gone
>.Astral guides: Gone
>>CJs: Gone

Just like barbarian lost weapons, Paladins armor, Rangers hunter's bows and leather armor, Thieves lockpicks, etc. etc.

Again can't speak to the other stuff so I won't. Sounds restrictive.

>>That's not really a fair statement since moon mage TM spells will always be second rate.

Except that they're not supposed to be second rate anymore, they're supposed to go through the same code as every other TM spell. If they're under performing in comparison to the rest of the TM world then there's probably an issue that needs addressing.

>>Hmm. how do i buy forged weapons that barbarians make?

Please stop being so asinine. The enchanting creation systems have not been released yet. When they are, Moon Mages will be able to enchant like everyone else.

>> Please stop being so asinine. The enchanting creation systems have not been released yet. When they are, Moon Mages will be able to enchant like everyone else.

I think his point was, forging was released to barbarians at the same time they took it from them. Not so here.

>>He was concerned about being a powerful character, which is a point you missed. You just keep trying to spear the argument without knowing what it means to fight as an HLC moonmage. I may be wrong.

I like that you're side-stepping all my points now. No, I have never fought as a HL Moon Mage.

What is also clear to me is that you've never played another guild to high circle. Yeah, sorry, the daylight restrictions and stuff sucks. Wanna know what else sucks? Having to pick alignment as a Cleric and see a net 15% penalty to one of your magic skills. So does only being able to use 1/3 of your max pool size as a barbarian outside of combat. So does having your ability to perform basic actions like hiding or evading penalized if you happen to sit inside a town for a few minutes a Ranger. So does having to worry about being auto-killed and forced to use favor-less depart with equipment loss if you cast too many spells as a Necro.

Every guild has their annoying, heavily-penalizing quirks. Please stop the "sky is falling, woe is us, we're so nerfed" attitude, it isn't helping. If you have specific suggestions that are not incredibly biased and unbalanced (like having SLS doing chain lightning) I have been trying very hard not to derail them. Many have been suggested, such as tool bonding issues or prediction fixes.

>> Except that they're not supposed to be second rate anymore, they're supposed to go through the same code as every other TM spell. If they're under performing in comparison to the rest of the TM world then there's probably an issue that needs addressing.

Perhaps I'm imagining it, but didn't I hear somewhere that Moon Mage TM spells would be sub par compared to the other magic primes due to the moon mage guild focus? For example, no multi-strike AOE spells.

>Perhaps I'm imagining it, but didn't I hear somewhere that Moon Mage TM spells would be sub par compared to the other magic primes due to the moon mage guild focus? For example, no multi-strike AOE spells.

AOE TM is one of your guild weaknesses, not TM in general.

---

Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance

>We're happy to entertain other suggestions for improving the guild.

How about the sun and/or grazhir being valid targets for FM and some other abilities, possibly increasing the difficulty of those other abilities?

Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer

I disagree with just about all of this thread, except for the complaint that SLS isn't available all day and night, and the note that bards are very powerful in 3.0. Regarding SLS, cyclic TM is just far too important to have our only one unavailable 50% of the time. I get the AOE handicap, and I get a lot of our situational handicaps, but this is the only cyclic TM spell we have. We really need it.

<<I think the honest answer is if you want to play a powerful character, you dont play a moonmage.>>

Yeah, agree to disagree I guess.

The playing field has been leveled, for sure. MM/barb/thief is no longer easy-mode win, but that's a far cry from MMs being incapable of being powerful.

Magic is massively easier to train 1000-1400 ranks, especially TM at the higher end. If you're over that or under that, I can't speak to it at all. But for me, my TM lock time has dropped 75% and I actually train LM for the first time in at least half a year. TKS works much better than before for me, much better than SLS.

Predictions are still awesome, and they retain the difficulty/drawback/pay-off aspect that I enjoy. If I wanted things easy, predictable, and consistent, I wouldn't play a MM. But that's just me. I think we get a lot of great perks in exchange for those difficulties, even if that's not the intentional development mechanic.

>>Have TKT/TKS use the old Energy Bolt message of being hit with telekentic energy, remove its variable damage components, puncture and impact based. Lower its stat alignment.

TKT damage is vastly more standardized in 3.0 than it was in 2.0. Mostly what changes is the type of damage. I wouldn't expect major changes to the spell.

>>Remove the shards from moonblade and lower its slot cost(unless they up the damage on TKT or alter its damage as a basis of it being a sort of meta thing), Though this would make moonblade near worthless

Moonblade may need some revisits, but it's always been sort of an oddball spell that I'm a little loath to revisit as a weapon until the WM elemental weapons are solved. I do have a notion of making shards interact a little differently with TKT that I need to run by the powers that be.

>>Also, I would absolutely love a Def factor/Off factor debuff. Most of our debilitation spells revolve around stopping a target stun/immobile/hypno but we don't have anything thats a real "Debuff" aside from TV.

I have no conceptual problem with that.

>>Make Fury a meta-spell for SLS that allows it to be cast during the day but instead invokes the users shadow. Not sure how that will work, but there.

I know the whole "SLS only at night thing" angers people, but it's a core part of the spell. I don't see it going anywhere.

I do have a new MM TM spell approved (That I'm not willing to go into details about until I figure out the logistics of how to make it work) that I think will excite people. The rest I have in mind (Katamba's Effigy and a few I can't talk about yet) are still swimming through proposals since they're rather... complex. I have one other idea for a TM spell that thematically I really like, but I haven't figured out what niche it would fill for Moon Mages so I haven't fleshed it out yet. None of those are "daylight SLS" however, though Katamba's Effigy may end up cyclic.

>>How about the sun and/or grazhir being valid targets for FM and some other abilities, possibly increasing the difficulty of those other abilities?

Generally speaking no, but if you have a strong argument why it should be viable for a particular spell I'm listening. You're likely to get further with the sun (ala Burn) than Grazhir. The entire point is that Grazhir is a faint shadow of a moon, almost all of its power bound up into the microcosm.

>>Regarding SLS, cyclic TM is just far too important to have our only one unavailable 50% of the time. I get the AOE handicap, and I get a lot of our situational handicaps, but this is the only cyclic TM spell we have. We really need it.

Why do people feel cyclic TM spells are so essentially? Is it just the learning? Because the answer to "Cyclics train better than normal spells" is not "Give everyone cyclics".

>>Penalties

Aside from being cyclic (which is usually -1 slot), penalties usually are not balanced with "Extra benefits". They're introduced as thematic for the guild. TKT/TKS/Footman's Strike/Chastise (when it comes out) all don't get something to make up for the fact they need ammo or a specific item to work.

Necromancer spells are no more power than everyone else's because they cause divine outrage and can't be cast in justice areas.

Paladin spells don't get a boost because they need a good soul state to work right.

And so on.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

What he said.

But FYI, Raesh is amazing.

What they said. Nothing to do with learning (TKS is better than SLS).