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Does lowering the spell slot requirements when they require a moon sound like a fair balance when trying to balance spells that require moons vs. spells that do not require moons, but essentially achieve the same result? Or do people feel like the spell slots required for our spells are accurate? I dont know. I'm just throwing out some brainstorming ideas.
ELWYNN
JF66070
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 08:15 AM CST
>> Does lowering the spell slot requirements when they require a moon sound like a fair balance when trying to balance spells that require moons vs. spells that do not require moons, but essentially achieve the same result? Or do people feel like the spell slots required for our spells are accurate? I dont know. I'm just throwing out some brainstorming ideas.
I personally prefer zero-sum design when it comes to these kind of things, so I would say yes, however as some other people have pointed out, most other guilds have some form of restrictions on a lot of their spells. They may not be as restrictive as moon mages, but they're there. If we went down that road, all our spells would essentially have to be 1 slot to balance out. Plus they've already said it's not zero-sum and restrictions are part of guild flavor, not spell design.
Chatter[Sava] well I bled all night and didn't become diseased
Chatter[Tincan] That's what she said?
I personally prefer zero-sum design when it comes to these kind of things, so I would say yes, however as some other people have pointed out, most other guilds have some form of restrictions on a lot of their spells. They may not be as restrictive as moon mages, but they're there. If we went down that road, all our spells would essentially have to be 1 slot to balance out. Plus they've already said it's not zero-sum and restrictions are part of guild flavor, not spell design.
Chatter[Sava] well I bled all night and didn't become diseased
Chatter[Tincan] That's what she said?
MOCKERJB
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 08:41 AM CST
<<For Warding, just release Shear, or don't cast Psychic spells. It only hinders your ability to cast Psychic spells.>>
Shear now hinders all spells, though it hinders the caster to a lesser degree than an attacker/third-person attempting buffs.
Shear now hinders all spells, though it hinders the caster to a lesser degree than an attacker/third-person attempting buffs.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 08:52 AM CST
Ok; REL SHEAR. Problem solved, no RT.
JF66070
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 09:03 AM CST
>> Ok; REL SHEAR. Problem solved, no RT.
And that's how I train with it, and it works fine. But I think it falls under the category of "Having to do something no adventurer would ever do just for the sake of training is insane." A magic spell that completely blocks your ability to use magic, and the only way a MM uses it is to cast it and then immediately dispell it. Does anyone actually run around with a Shear up?
Chatter[Sava] well I bled all night and didn't become diseased
Chatter[Tincan] That's what she said?
And that's how I train with it, and it works fine. But I think it falls under the category of "Having to do something no adventurer would ever do just for the sake of training is insane." A magic spell that completely blocks your ability to use magic, and the only way a MM uses it is to cast it and then immediately dispell it. Does anyone actually run around with a Shear up?
Chatter[Sava] well I bled all night and didn't become diseased
Chatter[Tincan] That's what she said?
APATHETICSMILE
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 09:07 AM CST
>>Does anyone actually run around with a Shear up?
People who're PvPing or hunting things that are cast heavy would I'd imagine?
People who're PvPing or hunting things that are cast heavy would I'd imagine?
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 09:18 AM CST
>A magic spell that completely blocks your ability to use magic, and the only way a MM uses it is to cast it and then immediately dispell it.
If you're only using the spell to train, then it's probably a silly seeming spell to you. But, and I know this may be a surprise; the spell does something, and does something quite useful.
But you think that's silly? What about WORM, a spell that also completely blocks your ability to use magic, albeit with the option of casting it a pole range, but then invalidating it's utility to anyone at melee with you.
Frankly, I'm not really sure what your issue is anymore; your original question was 'Why play a Moon mage?', and this has been firmly answered. You went onto claim that Moonies don't have any training options, which was also addressed. If you don't like the guild because of the Moon restrictions, then I humbly suggest playing a Lunar Mage might not be for you. If you don't like the guild because you're only using the spells for training purposes, then I suggest taking a closer look at what the spells do.
If you're only using the spell to train, then it's probably a silly seeming spell to you. But, and I know this may be a surprise; the spell does something, and does something quite useful.
But you think that's silly? What about WORM, a spell that also completely blocks your ability to use magic, albeit with the option of casting it a pole range, but then invalidating it's utility to anyone at melee with you.
Frankly, I'm not really sure what your issue is anymore; your original question was 'Why play a Moon mage?', and this has been firmly answered. You went onto claim that Moonies don't have any training options, which was also addressed. If you don't like the guild because of the Moon restrictions, then I humbly suggest playing a Lunar Mage might not be for you. If you don't like the guild because you're only using the spells for training purposes, then I suggest taking a closer look at what the spells do.
BEVERAGEK
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 09:34 AM CST
Moon Mages were very powerful with regard to PvP in 2.0. A lot of that has been nerfed.
- DFA Burn used to be extremely deadly and hands-down beat every other comparable regular-castable TM spell in the MM's repitoire. It has been nerfed, and now it's a lot more balanced.
- Mental Blast used to cause nerve damage and paralysis which used to totally nerf defenses. This has been nerfed, and now it's a lot more balanced.
- CJs used to allow a Moon Mage(or anyone for that matter) to buff any/multiple combat skill(s) by 100 or more ranks. This is now gone.
- First strike from stealth/invisibility has been nerfed because now you're locked into a room for a duration after attacking, and that first strike no longer does as much damage as it used to which typically won the spar.
- Evasion used to be a lot more valuable than the other defenses. Its effectiveness has been nerfed, and now it is on par with Shield its counterpart ranged defense.
- Refractive Field and Shadows used to give crazy boosts to Hiding. This has been nerfed.
There are other things I'm sure, but those are/were the big hitters that I can think of off the top of my head.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
- DFA Burn used to be extremely deadly and hands-down beat every other comparable regular-castable TM spell in the MM's repitoire. It has been nerfed, and now it's a lot more balanced.
- Mental Blast used to cause nerve damage and paralysis which used to totally nerf defenses. This has been nerfed, and now it's a lot more balanced.
- CJs used to allow a Moon Mage(or anyone for that matter) to buff any/multiple combat skill(s) by 100 or more ranks. This is now gone.
- First strike from stealth/invisibility has been nerfed because now you're locked into a room for a duration after attacking, and that first strike no longer does as much damage as it used to which typically won the spar.
- Evasion used to be a lot more valuable than the other defenses. Its effectiveness has been nerfed, and now it is on par with Shield its counterpart ranged defense.
- Refractive Field and Shadows used to give crazy boosts to Hiding. This has been nerfed.
There are other things I'm sure, but those are/were the big hitters that I can think of off the top of my head.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
JF66070
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 09:39 AM CST
>> You went onto claim that Moonies don't have any training options
You're misquoting, again. I never said we don't have training options, I said the training options we do have are restricted to time and moon availability. I'll quantify that by saying I'm at +1000 ranks. I don't know what kind of ranks you guys have, so you might just not know, but the higher you get, the fewer spells you have to choose from that will still train effectively.
>> >>Does anyone actually run around with a Shear up?
>> People who're PvPing or hunting things that are cast heavy would I'd imagine?
This breaks down at high ranks. When you have >1000 ranks of magic, and 500 ranks of weapon, and are PvPing someone with >1000 ranks of combats, not using magic and relying on your weapon isn't possible. I don't even both to swing my weapon when I PvP because there is zero point. I'm not going to hit and that time is far better spent recharging cambrinth.
>> Frankly, I'm not really sure what your issue is anymore... If you don't like the guild because of the Moon restrictions, then I humbly suggest playing a Lunar Mage might not be for you
I think I summed it up previously in that the guild has gone in a new direction. It's now higher risk vs reward, the restrictions interfere more, and it's niche. It's not going to change, I've accepted it, I've moved on, and am loving my Bard. At this point I'm still in the discussion because I do think there are mechanical and design issues that need to be addressed, especially at the upper ranks, and there have been a couple other points that came up that I think warrant further attention, ex. AoE vs non-AoE teaching (which I made a separate post about).
Chatter[Sava] well I bled all night and didn't become diseased
Chatter[Tincan] That's what she said?
You're misquoting, again. I never said we don't have training options, I said the training options we do have are restricted to time and moon availability. I'll quantify that by saying I'm at +1000 ranks. I don't know what kind of ranks you guys have, so you might just not know, but the higher you get, the fewer spells you have to choose from that will still train effectively.
>> >>Does anyone actually run around with a Shear up?
>> People who're PvPing or hunting things that are cast heavy would I'd imagine?
This breaks down at high ranks. When you have >1000 ranks of magic, and 500 ranks of weapon, and are PvPing someone with >1000 ranks of combats, not using magic and relying on your weapon isn't possible. I don't even both to swing my weapon when I PvP because there is zero point. I'm not going to hit and that time is far better spent recharging cambrinth.
>> Frankly, I'm not really sure what your issue is anymore... If you don't like the guild because of the Moon restrictions, then I humbly suggest playing a Lunar Mage might not be for you
I think I summed it up previously in that the guild has gone in a new direction. It's now higher risk vs reward, the restrictions interfere more, and it's niche. It's not going to change, I've accepted it, I've moved on, and am loving my Bard. At this point I'm still in the discussion because I do think there are mechanical and design issues that need to be addressed, especially at the upper ranks, and there have been a couple other points that came up that I think warrant further attention, ex. AoE vs non-AoE teaching (which I made a separate post about).
Chatter[Sava] well I bled all night and didn't become diseased
Chatter[Tincan] That's what she said?
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 10:15 AM CST
>I said the training options we do have are restricted to time and moon availability.
A ) I showed you that this was false, and B ) Moon restrictions have ALWAYS been in place. This isn't a change 3.0 brought. So, again, if you don't like being restricted by the moons, stop playing a Lunar Mage.
>...I'm at +1000 ranks. I don't know what kind of ranks you guys have, so you might just not know, but the higher you get, the fewer spells you have to choose from that will still train effectively.
My Moonie is at ~650, so we're admittedly looking at different training ranges. That said, you have access to at least Advanced spells for every magic type, and training TM is not dependent on magic difficulty.
>This breaks down at high ranks. When you have >1000 ranks of magic, and 500 ranks of weapon, and are PvPing someone with >1000 ranks of combats, not using magic and relying on your weapon isn't possible. I don't even both to swing my weapon when I PvP because there is zero point. I'm not going to hit and that time is far better spent recharging cambrinth.
I fail to see what your point is here; you're complaining now about primary/secondary/tert placements? Moonies excel at magic, obviously, and if you engage in combat with someone, you should play on your strengths. Alternatively, because people expect a Moonie to use magics in combat, you could also train your combats hard and surprise them. This, again, isn't a 3.0 change, and 3.0 bringing things in line happened across the board; BMR, for example, is less 'No magic may touch a barbarian over a certain circle' and more 'if they want to use anti-magic, that's a choice that costs them'.
>I think I summed it up previously in that the guild has gone in a new direction. It's now higher risk vs reward, the restrictions interfere more, and it's niche.
I don't understand what you mean here, but in any case, disagree that the guilds direction has changed, really, at all. If anything, we've been given more options; don't want to sit on your butt and repeatedly make predictions? Cool! Here, have some sorcery spells that you can go into combat with. Don't want to use sorcery? Cool! Don't!
>Moon Mages were very powerful with regard to PvP in 2.0. A lot of that has been nerfed.
This is sort of irrelevant given that all guilds have had their various broken PvP abilities brought into line. I don't disagree that DFA Burn or MB were awesome PvP tools, but then, so was BMR and Dragon Dance.
A ) I showed you that this was false, and B ) Moon restrictions have ALWAYS been in place. This isn't a change 3.0 brought. So, again, if you don't like being restricted by the moons, stop playing a Lunar Mage.
>...I'm at +1000 ranks. I don't know what kind of ranks you guys have, so you might just not know, but the higher you get, the fewer spells you have to choose from that will still train effectively.
My Moonie is at ~650, so we're admittedly looking at different training ranges. That said, you have access to at least Advanced spells for every magic type, and training TM is not dependent on magic difficulty.
>This breaks down at high ranks. When you have >1000 ranks of magic, and 500 ranks of weapon, and are PvPing someone with >1000 ranks of combats, not using magic and relying on your weapon isn't possible. I don't even both to swing my weapon when I PvP because there is zero point. I'm not going to hit and that time is far better spent recharging cambrinth.
I fail to see what your point is here; you're complaining now about primary/secondary/tert placements? Moonies excel at magic, obviously, and if you engage in combat with someone, you should play on your strengths. Alternatively, because people expect a Moonie to use magics in combat, you could also train your combats hard and surprise them. This, again, isn't a 3.0 change, and 3.0 bringing things in line happened across the board; BMR, for example, is less 'No magic may touch a barbarian over a certain circle' and more 'if they want to use anti-magic, that's a choice that costs them'.
>I think I summed it up previously in that the guild has gone in a new direction. It's now higher risk vs reward, the restrictions interfere more, and it's niche.
I don't understand what you mean here, but in any case, disagree that the guilds direction has changed, really, at all. If anything, we've been given more options; don't want to sit on your butt and repeatedly make predictions? Cool! Here, have some sorcery spells that you can go into combat with. Don't want to use sorcery? Cool! Don't!
>Moon Mages were very powerful with regard to PvP in 2.0. A lot of that has been nerfed.
This is sort of irrelevant given that all guilds have had their various broken PvP abilities brought into line. I don't disagree that DFA Burn or MB were awesome PvP tools, but then, so was BMR and Dragon Dance.
WBURKE1
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 10:33 AM CST
>>This breaks down at high ranks. When you have >1000 ranks of magic, and 500 ranks of weapon, and are PvPing someone with >1000 ranks of combats, not using magic and relying on your weapon isn't possible. I don't even both to swing my weapon when I PvP because there is zero point. I'm not going to hit and that time is far better spent recharging cambrinth.
The fact that your character isn't trained for the circumstance that Shear is designed for doesn't mean that Shear isn't designed for a specific circumstance. Moon Mages have lots of spells; they have room for some spells that are niche in purpose, such as a spell for turning off magic against an enemy whose magic you're afraid of. Shear is very good at its particular niche, as I understand it.
The fact that your character isn't trained for the circumstance that Shear is designed for doesn't mean that Shear isn't designed for a specific circumstance. Moon Mages have lots of spells; they have room for some spells that are niche in purpose, such as a spell for turning off magic against an enemy whose magic you're afraid of. Shear is very good at its particular niche, as I understand it.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 12:21 PM CST
So, I'm thinking of a spell. This hasn't been formally proposed yet, but I want to know if something like this would help fill a gap in the Debilitation array Moon Mages have.
Telekinetic Push
2 Slots, Advanced Debilitation, Magic vs. Reflex
Target is stunned + based on win amount staggered (set kneeling or prone)
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Telekinetic Push
2 Slots, Advanced Debilitation, Magic vs. Reflex
Target is stunned + based on win amount staggered (set kneeling or prone)
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
DAENAR-DR
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 12:45 PM CST
>> Telekinetic Push
>> 2 Slots, Advanced Debilitation, Magic vs. Reflex
>> Target is stunned + based on win amount staggered (set kneeling or prone)
Sounds awesome. But similar to dazzle except for the stagger. (no moon penalty however.) Can you make it Magic vs. Fortitude? It seems less reflexy in that you cant actually see it, but more like "I just got smashed by an invisible wall."
Can you do dual SvS checks? Magic vs Stamina for the stun. and Magic vs. Reflex or the staggering.
>> Does anyone actually run around with a Shear up?
It blocks locates now. So... yeah. But, its more of a PITA with no magic training, better off to find warded rooms.
>> 2 Slots, Advanced Debilitation, Magic vs. Reflex
>> Target is stunned + based on win amount staggered (set kneeling or prone)
Sounds awesome. But similar to dazzle except for the stagger. (no moon penalty however.) Can you make it Magic vs. Fortitude? It seems less reflexy in that you cant actually see it, but more like "I just got smashed by an invisible wall."
Can you do dual SvS checks? Magic vs Stamina for the stun. and Magic vs. Reflex or the staggering.
>> Does anyone actually run around with a Shear up?
It blocks locates now. So... yeah. But, its more of a PITA with no magic training, better off to find warded rooms.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 12:47 PM CST
That sounds neat, but Moonies already have a host of stuns/Debils that 'stop' an opponent for a bit.
I'd rather see Debil that works in line with other spells abilities; for example, something like MoA that increases the damage caused by Lunar magic, or something like VoD/old TV that debuffs the targets perception, or something that reduces some stats (Manacles of Moonlight, debuffs reflex).
I'd rather see Debil that works in line with other spells abilities; for example, something like MoA that increases the damage caused by Lunar magic, or something like VoD/old TV that debuffs the targets perception, or something that reduces some stats (Manacles of Moonlight, debuffs reflex).
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 12:48 PM CST
>>Sounds awesome. But similar to dazzle except for the stagger. (no moon penalty however.) Can you make it Magic vs. Fortitude?
It could be, yeah. I targeted vs. Reflex because I thought we set Dazzle vs. Fortitude this time around, but in retrospect I'm suddenly unsure and feeling a slight dementia.
>>Can you do dual SvS checks? Magic vs Stamina for the stun. and Magic vs. Reflex or the staggering.
Could, though that'd be slightly annoying on my end if we could resolve it with a single contest instead.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
It could be, yeah. I targeted vs. Reflex because I thought we set Dazzle vs. Fortitude this time around, but in retrospect I'm suddenly unsure and feeling a slight dementia.
>>Can you do dual SvS checks? Magic vs Stamina for the stun. and Magic vs. Reflex or the staggering.
Could, though that'd be slightly annoying on my end if we could resolve it with a single contest instead.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
JF66070
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 12:51 PM CST
Make it 3 slots and AoE and I'm sold. And I only say that because of the AoE vs non AoE training issue.
Otherwise, I like it. It's advanced, is vs something other then will, and doesn't have any dependencies.
Chatter[Sava] well I bled all night and didn't become diseased
Chatter[Tincan] That's what she said?
Otherwise, I like it. It's advanced, is vs something other then will, and doesn't have any dependencies.
Chatter[Sava] well I bled all night and didn't become diseased
Chatter[Tincan] That's what she said?
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 12:51 PM CST
A perception debuffer is entirely possible, though I'm unsure of its value.
Damage increaser probably wouldn't happen.
Stat reduction is OK by my book but I struggle to think of a good lore-wrapper to put it in.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Damage increaser probably wouldn't happen.
Stat reduction is OK by my book but I struggle to think of a good lore-wrapper to put it in.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 01:10 PM CST
A perception debuff would go well with shadows, and considering we're survival secondary, and many moonies use stealth, it would be as useful as VoD is to a Necromancer. If you think perception debuffs in general are useless, then that's another thing entirely.
The image of a Moonie emanating a wave of telekinetic energy that shoves enemies back is pretty neat in my mind. That said;
Lore wise, I'm not sure how it's more or less in line with a potential stat debuff. We already have a cage of light that protects us; I see little different between a cage of light that hinders in terms of thematic spell functionality.
The image of a Moonie emanating a wave of telekinetic energy that shoves enemies back is pretty neat in my mind. That said;
Lore wise, I'm not sure how it's more or less in line with a potential stat debuff. We already have a cage of light that protects us; I see little different between a cage of light that hinders in terms of thematic spell functionality.
DURATHING
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 01:19 PM CST
I know a damage increase probably won't happen, but the telekinetic shove thing gave me an idea and I wanted to throw it out there.
Telekinetic Acceleration Field (or just Acceleration Field). Single-target physical damage increase (does not affect magic). Effectively increases the impact of anything that is moving towards the target.
annnd
Telekinetic Slurry or Telekinetic bonds (please find a better name). Single target movement speed debuff. Slows down target's movements [RT increase?], reduces damage done by target and can potentially cause immobilization with a strong enough cast.
Telekinetic Acceleration Field (or just Acceleration Field). Single-target physical damage increase (does not affect magic). Effectively increases the impact of anything that is moving towards the target.
annnd
Telekinetic Slurry or Telekinetic bonds (please find a better name). Single target movement speed debuff. Slows down target's movements [RT increase?], reduces damage done by target and can potentially cause immobilization with a strong enough cast.
DAENAR-DR
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 01:28 PM CST
>> It could be, yeah. I targeted vs. Reflex because I thought we set Dazzle vs. Fortitude this time around, but in retrospect I'm suddenly unsure and feeling a slight dementia.
Oh, I thought it was Reflex still, It could very well have been moved to Fortitude. It makes sense for the messaging.
A flicker of silvery-blue light envelops you!
The light blinds you for a moment, causing you to stop in your tracks and try to clear the spots from your eyes.
Also, just remembered the other restriction on dazzle, "Cannot be used indoors."
>> Could, though that'd be slightly annoying on my end if we could resolve it with a single contest instead.
Yeah, not worth it then.
If we need a Magic vs. Reflex, I vote for converting Energy Manacles and giving moon mages either 1) the ability to perm memorize or 2) making it learnable from the guildmaster.
>> A perception debuffer is entirely possible, though I'm unsure of its value.
Pointless if we have to give something up for it. If it's just fluff, (since it has litle value), I think it's great.
>> (Manacles of Moonlight, debuffs reflex).
Lunar Manacles -- Magic vs. Reflex - Agi/Ref debuff and can be used to "shackle" multiple opponents together, preventing them from fleeing the room. (and making it an AOE) Skill level increases the number of opponents. Also allows you to use innoncent bystanders to hold the necromancer in place... :P
Oh, I thought it was Reflex still, It could very well have been moved to Fortitude. It makes sense for the messaging.
A flicker of silvery-blue light envelops you!
The light blinds you for a moment, causing you to stop in your tracks and try to clear the spots from your eyes.
Also, just remembered the other restriction on dazzle, "Cannot be used indoors."
>> Could, though that'd be slightly annoying on my end if we could resolve it with a single contest instead.
Yeah, not worth it then.
If we need a Magic vs. Reflex, I vote for converting Energy Manacles and giving moon mages either 1) the ability to perm memorize or 2) making it learnable from the guildmaster.
>> A perception debuffer is entirely possible, though I'm unsure of its value.
Pointless if we have to give something up for it. If it's just fluff, (since it has litle value), I think it's great.
>> (Manacles of Moonlight, debuffs reflex).
Lunar Manacles -- Magic vs. Reflex - Agi/Ref debuff and can be used to "shackle" multiple opponents together, preventing them from fleeing the room. (and making it an AOE) Skill level increases the number of opponents. Also allows you to use innoncent bystanders to hold the necromancer in place... :P
VOLCANUS
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 01:45 PM CST
>> Stat reduction is OK by my book but I struggle to think of a good lore-wrapper to put it in.
I think this would make sense as a series of cyclic disablers. Can be targeted at an individual for increased impact, or fed greater mana and cast at all creatures/areas for a weakened effect.
Weaponizing moon gates (disable/tm) - Reflex + agility debuff. Potential TM component.
Summon a very tiny moon gate to no where, just big enough for voidspawn to reach through. Have them grab arms and legs and try to pull them in. Reflex + Agility debuff - extreme wins may pull a leg or hand in for damage based on the magnitude of the critical.
Weaponizing shadow servants - Strength + Stamina debuff.
Summons a young shadow servant to constrict the individuality. Not formed enough to interact with, nor strong enough to completely bind the target. However, is able to psychically give the impression of weakness. You think you're weak, therefore you are.
Mental disabler - Intellect + Wisdom
Step between calm and MB. Hinders a person's will and intellect. Similar to mental blast, but targets the mind instead of the nerves. Temporary as the person's intellect will eventually overpower the spell given enough time.
Agitation - Charisma + Discipline
Opposite of calm. You agitate the disciplined mind.
I think this would make sense as a series of cyclic disablers. Can be targeted at an individual for increased impact, or fed greater mana and cast at all creatures/areas for a weakened effect.
Weaponizing moon gates (disable/tm) - Reflex + agility debuff. Potential TM component.
Summon a very tiny moon gate to no where, just big enough for voidspawn to reach through. Have them grab arms and legs and try to pull them in. Reflex + Agility debuff - extreme wins may pull a leg or hand in for damage based on the magnitude of the critical.
Weaponizing shadow servants - Strength + Stamina debuff.
Summons a young shadow servant to constrict the individuality. Not formed enough to interact with, nor strong enough to completely bind the target. However, is able to psychically give the impression of weakness. You think you're weak, therefore you are.
Mental disabler - Intellect + Wisdom
Step between calm and MB. Hinders a person's will and intellect. Similar to mental blast, but targets the mind instead of the nerves. Temporary as the person's intellect will eventually overpower the spell given enough time.
Agitation - Charisma + Discipline
Opposite of calm. You agitate the disciplined mind.
DR-RAESH
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 01:53 PM CST
>>Weaponizing moon gates (disable/tm) - Reflex + agility debuff. Potential TM component.
Someone's been reading A Memory of Light.
... I actually was thinking about how mechanically to do things like that, the main problem is mechanically I kept reinventing DO.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Someone's been reading A Memory of Light.
... I actually was thinking about how mechanically to do things like that, the main problem is mechanically I kept reinventing DO.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
MOCKERJB
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 07:02 PM CST
<<Telekinetic Push
2 Slots, Advanced Debilitation, Magic vs. Reflex
Target is stunned + based on win amount staggered (set kneeling or prone)>>
Very awesome. I, too, thought dazzle had been coverted to vs fortitude for 3.0 but discern says otherwise. Whatever the case, telekinetic push would be best if it filled the contest niche between MB/etc and Dazzle. Also, is there any way this could have a naphtha throwing option ala WM's paeldryth's wrath? That option was ruled out for TKT I think.
As a general matter for debilitation improvements for us:
The most valuable disablers/curses right now are cyclics and other cast-and-forget spells because new combat is drawn out, and TM use is incredibly mana intensive. "Passive" disablers (or TM via SLS for instance) allow the user to effectively stack conventional attacks/disablers with the passive assault. That is hugely valuable. I'd personally vote for priority debilitation dev to focus on shadow web, or any other cyclical disabler/debuff.
It would also be awesome to have a "chases people" disabler, like SA operates for TM.
2 Slots, Advanced Debilitation, Magic vs. Reflex
Target is stunned + based on win amount staggered (set kneeling or prone)>>
Very awesome. I, too, thought dazzle had been coverted to vs fortitude for 3.0 but discern says otherwise. Whatever the case, telekinetic push would be best if it filled the contest niche between MB/etc and Dazzle. Also, is there any way this could have a naphtha throwing option ala WM's paeldryth's wrath? That option was ruled out for TKT I think.
As a general matter for debilitation improvements for us:
The most valuable disablers/curses right now are cyclics and other cast-and-forget spells because new combat is drawn out, and TM use is incredibly mana intensive. "Passive" disablers (or TM via SLS for instance) allow the user to effectively stack conventional attacks/disablers with the passive assault. That is hugely valuable. I'd personally vote for priority debilitation dev to focus on shadow web, or any other cyclical disabler/debuff.
It would also be awesome to have a "chases people" disabler, like SA operates for TM.
MOCKERJB
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 07:06 PM CST
Sorry for the double post, but had to add:
Please no perception debuff. I don't think that would be very helpful.
Please no perception debuff. I don't think that would be very helpful.
COOPERG8
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 07:11 PM CST
I am vastly in favor of anything telekinetic.
DAENAR-DR
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 07:51 PM CST
>> Please no perception debuff. I don't think that would be very helpful.
Agreed. On my necro I never use VoD in PvE because there is always more then one creature. Trying to juggle VoD between every new creature is just plain too much work. And to build for only PVP, doesn't make sense.
I'd say perception debuff would work if it was AOE, or if it was essentially "free" on top of some sort of other debilitation/disable.
Agreed. On my necro I never use VoD in PvE because there is always more then one creature. Trying to juggle VoD between every new creature is just plain too much work. And to build for only PVP, doesn't make sense.
I'd say perception debuff would work if it was AOE, or if it was essentially "free" on top of some sort of other debilitation/disable.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 07:56 PM CST
It's not quite a debuff, but we do still have Avren Ave-whatever in the pipeline to be eventually released.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 08:48 PM CST
>On my necro I never use VoD in PvE because there is always more then one creature.
I find it's actually pretty helpful for ambushing a target, but, yeah, stealth is way higher than what I can really handle at melee. This makes me wish VoD was AoE...
>The most valuable disablers/curses right now are cyclics and other cast-and-forget spells because new combat is drawn out, and TM use is incredibly mana intensive.
I think cyclics are better trainers, but primarily because they pulse quickly, provide oodles of xp, and most importantly, are fire-and-forget, but I do think that they're more mana intensive, not less, than normal spell casting. If you're fine spamming TM or including a single target Debilitation (e.g., HP) before you get to work on a critter, I think that's just as effective.
That said, HYH-Male is pretty great at keeping your foes less potent :(
I find it's actually pretty helpful for ambushing a target, but, yeah, stealth is way higher than what I can really handle at melee. This makes me wish VoD was AoE...
>The most valuable disablers/curses right now are cyclics and other cast-and-forget spells because new combat is drawn out, and TM use is incredibly mana intensive.
I think cyclics are better trainers, but primarily because they pulse quickly, provide oodles of xp, and most importantly, are fire-and-forget, but I do think that they're more mana intensive, not less, than normal spell casting. If you're fine spamming TM or including a single target Debilitation (e.g., HP) before you get to work on a critter, I think that's just as effective.
That said, HYH-Male is pretty great at keeping your foes less potent :(
MOCKERJB
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 08:58 PM CST
<<If you're fine spamming TM or including a single target Debilitation (e.g., HP) before you get to work on a critter, I think that's just as effective.>>
SLS and MB and Burn/TKT/DO/TKS is better than MB and Burn/TKT/DO/TKS. Replace SLS with a cyclic disabler to see my point. Take out the SLS/cyclic disabler addition and no, you are not just as effective.
<<we do still have Avren Ave-whatever in the pipeline to be eventually released>>
Not sure I've heard of that one; what's that about? Was the reply in context of the perception debuff posts?
SLS and MB and Burn/TKT/DO/TKS is better than MB and Burn/TKT/DO/TKS. Replace SLS with a cyclic disabler to see my point. Take out the SLS/cyclic disabler addition and no, you are not just as effective.
<<we do still have Avren Ave-whatever in the pipeline to be eventually released>>
Not sure I've heard of that one; what's that about? Was the reply in context of the perception debuff posts?
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 09:03 PM CST
>>Not sure I've heard of that one; what's that about? Was the reply in context of the perception debuff posts?
Yeah. It's a spell that, depending on the moon being used, gives either a room wide bonus or malus to stealth.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Yeah. It's a spell that, depending on the moon being used, gives either a room wide bonus or malus to stealth.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
MOCKERJB
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 09:31 PM CST
That'd be a neat one too, but personally my concerns with a spell like that would be: (1) it doesn't travel with us, and all serious fights are going to migrate rooms in 3.0 combat, and (2) stealth is just really not very useful for us in serious combat anymore. It's nice to have RF and shadows etc for running around, and for getting the first drop on someone, but the "hide repeatedly in one room" strategy is just not really feasible anymore with all the counters to stealth (AOE, escape, Watch, etc). We generally have the stealth boost we need in shadows, and we have our fair share of anti-stealth options now too.
Shadow Web, with the possibility of following with us as cyclic, and Scry, with the option of getting spot effect on people who aren't even in the room with you, are just much more useful priorities for me personally.
That said, filling the disabler niche with something that gave us options on all stat contests would be very nice too. We just have to figure out if dazzle is vs fortitude or reflex (like discern says).
Shadow Web, with the possibility of following with us as cyclic, and Scry, with the option of getting spot effect on people who aren't even in the room with you, are just much more useful priorities for me personally.
That said, filling the disabler niche with something that gave us options on all stat contests would be very nice too. We just have to figure out if dazzle is vs fortitude or reflex (like discern says).
MALZART
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/15/2013 09:43 PM CST
<<Shadow Web, with the possibility of following with us as cyclic, and Scry, with the option of getting spot effect on people who aren't even in the room with you, are just much more useful priorities for me personally.>>
Amen. Not that we've ever talked about this or anything...nope....
Malzard
Amen. Not that we've ever talked about this or anything...nope....
Malzard
FALLENSHADOWS
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/16/2013 04:38 AM CST
>>... I actually was thinking about how mechanically to do things like that, the main problem is mechanically I kept reinventing DO.
You know that whole plunging peoples world into darkness thing we lost, yeah that works for me as an Agi/Ref debuff. Just go call it something else. Encasing or trapping someone in shadow is fine by me. Yeah its a modification to DO, but its not what DO is trying to do, DO is trying to kill. This is just trying to lock people up.
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
The Light is Crimson through the Darkness.
You know that whole plunging peoples world into darkness thing we lost, yeah that works for me as an Agi/Ref debuff. Just go call it something else. Encasing or trapping someone in shadow is fine by me. Yeah its a modification to DO, but its not what DO is trying to do, DO is trying to kill. This is just trying to lock people up.
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
The Light is Crimson through the Darkness.
DR-RAESH
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/16/2013 06:00 AM CST
Naw, I meant weaponizing moongates.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/16/2013 12:43 PM CST
>SLS and MB and Burn/TKT/DO/TKS is better than MB and Burn/TKT/DO/TKS. Replace SLS with a cyclic disabler to see my point. Take out the SLS/cyclic disabler addition and no, you are not just as effective.
In terms of training, or damage/effect : Mana spent?
In terms of training, or damage/effect : Mana spent?
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/16/2013 01:36 PM CST
> Naw, I meant weaponizing moongates.
But we already have deathgates. Its when you cast a rogue one and a bunch of bad stuff comes out and kills you.
But we already have deathgates. Its when you cast a rogue one and a bunch of bad stuff comes out and kills you.
DREAMIGINE
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/16/2013 02:41 PM CST
I would certainly second the desire for more debuffs (I guess it is more like 10th-ing it at this point): the idea of trapping a person in shadows (for an agility or reflex penalty) seems useful to me. It does seem harder to explain a strength/stamina debuff: maybe the spell could tie their current state to a future probability - namely when they are much older and feebler and they experience a shadow of that existence in the present.
I would also ask if it is possible to have a weapon buff: the spell surrounds one weapon with a sheath of lunar light that does additional fire/cold/? damage depending on what moon it is cast on. Not sure if that will overlap too much with the empowered moonblade plan.
I would also ask if it is possible to have a weapon buff: the spell surrounds one weapon with a sheath of lunar light that does additional fire/cold/? damage depending on what moon it is cast on. Not sure if that will overlap too much with the empowered moonblade plan.
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/16/2013 03:13 PM CST
Highly doubt a weapon augmentation would be on the board. Plus, it sounds like what your referring to is already on the table for weapon enchantments.
MOCKERJB
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/16/2013 03:16 PM CST
<<In terms of training, or damage/effect : Mana spent?>>
Just total "DPS-like" damage/effect. A cyclic is a "third-hand" attack. Mana intensive? Absolutely you're right. Indefinitely sustainable in a fight? Usually not, agreed. But it's definitely a nice option to have when you're willing to tank attunement to throw everything you can at something.
Just total "DPS-like" damage/effect. A cyclic is a "third-hand" attack. Mana intensive? Absolutely you're right. Indefinitely sustainable in a fight? Usually not, agreed. But it's definitely a nice option to have when you're willing to tank attunement to throw everything you can at something.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Why still play a Moon Mage? (debilitation tangent)
02/16/2013 03:27 PM CST
I'm not sure that cyclics do more damage per pulse than non-cyclics; AoE's seem to have a much higher chance to hit (like, stupidly higher... I shouldn't be able to hit stuff that I can hit with my cyclic AoE TMs). Depending on how you want to roll with your targeting, you can always target, attack, cast, target, attack, cast.
But yeah, having a cyclic TM pulsing WHILE you also spam a TM? Potent stuff.
But yeah, having a cyclic TM pulsing WHILE you also spam a TM? Potent stuff.
