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Peanut gallery here, but someone suggested making the req. equal to WM armor reqs, which would be 470 @ 150th. And not far different from the "50% of Primary weapon", which would be 420 @ 150th. Or whatever, if you wanted to scale it past that (put dillo hunters at 500-700?)
Any suggestion with regard to lore is stupid given how unbalancingly easy lores are to train (app/mech/vocals in particular).
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
SCHULTZS3
GORTEOUS
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 04:13 AM CDT
>>Any suggestion with regard to lore is stupid given how unbalancingly easy lores are to train (app/mech/vocals in particular).
...
How does this not sink in? Barbarians are glorified commoners without dances/berserks. DANCE OR BUST. All barbs dance or berserk. They aren't just good for combat. Panther gives a huge ref/agil boost(better than benediction). Bear gives a huge str/stam boost(better than benediction).
No matter what a barbarian's lores are(training at tert rate), they would always have more Inner Fire if it were a skill. You're talking .1% here.
Most magic tert guilds have at least 600 PM at 150th. At least. This isn't 2001. 500 is no longer extreme. 370 is pretty ridiculous. I'm too busy training 20+ weapons to ever invest any real time vocals, and its 392. C'mon.
Really, people? Really?
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
...
How does this not sink in? Barbarians are glorified commoners without dances/berserks. DANCE OR BUST. All barbs dance or berserk. They aren't just good for combat. Panther gives a huge ref/agil boost(better than benediction). Bear gives a huge str/stam boost(better than benediction).
No matter what a barbarian's lores are(training at tert rate), they would always have more Inner Fire if it were a skill. You're talking .1% here.
Most magic tert guilds have at least 600 PM at 150th. At least. This isn't 2001. 500 is no longer extreme. 370 is pretty ridiculous. I'm too busy training 20+ weapons to ever invest any real time vocals, and its 392. C'mon.
Really, people? Really?
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 05:24 AM CDT
>>Most magic tert guilds have at least 600 PM at 150th. At least. This isn't 2001. 500 is no longer extreme. 370 is pretty ridiculous. I'm too busy training 20+ weapons to ever invest any real time vocals, and its 392. C'mon.
They're magic ranks. A year after release you will have 800 ranks anyways, whether they grandfather 300 ranks or 500.
They're magic ranks. A year after release you will have 800 ranks anyways, whether they grandfather 300 ranks or 500.
JARAGONA
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 06:38 AM CDT
>>Any suggestion with regard to lore is stupid given how unbalancingly easy lores are to train (app/mech/vocals in particular).
I dance pretty much nonstop, all the time, everyday. I dance when I hunt. I dance when I mine. I dance when I forge. I dance when I swim. I dance when I pop boxes. I dance when I am in hiding, draining. I dance when I dance. This is going to start sounding like a nursery rhyme. I do not hum all the time (900 ranks, nearly). I do not appraise all that much (almost 800 ranks of RT gained ranks). I work like a dog to train mech lore to a decent level (no pyramids ever). Even my teaching is almost 500 ranks, and I am solo the vast majority of my time. I think this is kind of what concerns us about the numbers. And we use lore as our analogy because it is the only tert skillset we have to go by.
You also see a shiny scorecard and a shiny scorecard.
Obvious paths: none.
> read scorec
A shiny scorecard reads:
"Liurilias - 747"
> read other scorec
A shiny scorecard reads:
"Zerreck - 2456"
I dance pretty much nonstop, all the time, everyday. I dance when I hunt. I dance when I mine. I dance when I forge. I dance when I swim. I dance when I pop boxes. I dance when I am in hiding, draining. I dance when I dance. This is going to start sounding like a nursery rhyme. I do not hum all the time (900 ranks, nearly). I do not appraise all that much (almost 800 ranks of RT gained ranks). I work like a dog to train mech lore to a decent level (no pyramids ever). Even my teaching is almost 500 ranks, and I am solo the vast majority of my time. I think this is kind of what concerns us about the numbers. And we use lore as our analogy because it is the only tert skillset we have to go by.
You also see a shiny scorecard and a shiny scorecard.
Obvious paths: none.
> read scorec
A shiny scorecard reads:
"Liurilias - 747"
> read other scorec
A shiny scorecard reads:
"Zerreck - 2456"
NEELD
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 08:31 AM CDT
<<They're magic ranks. A year after release you will have 800 ranks anyways, whether they grandfather 300 ranks or 500.
Possibly, but I may be a decent point of reference on this statement. The TM change went into effect and I was able to start training TM I believe app. 2 years ago. I presently have 460'ish (I am at work so guessing a tad here) TM and within the last 4 months have been able to train it "at level" with sufficient buffs. Learning the new magic may be different than TM...just not sure.
I think the bigger issue is what did I give up for even this modicum of success? I still have years of backtraining to push TM into the range of my primary weapon. Listen, I am no 6-8 hour training person but I put in a solid 2-3 hours each day which I would consider average.
Nice post by Kodius so hopefully you guys|gals will get to see how it is working and adjust from there. That statement is very +1.
Madigan
Possibly, but I may be a decent point of reference on this statement. The TM change went into effect and I was able to start training TM I believe app. 2 years ago. I presently have 460'ish (I am at work so guessing a tad here) TM and within the last 4 months have been able to train it "at level" with sufficient buffs. Learning the new magic may be different than TM...just not sure.
I think the bigger issue is what did I give up for even this modicum of success? I still have years of backtraining to push TM into the range of my primary weapon. Listen, I am no 6-8 hour training person but I put in a solid 2-3 hours each day which I would consider average.
Nice post by Kodius so hopefully you guys|gals will get to see how it is working and adjust from there. That statement is very +1.
Madigan
DRUHANL3
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 08:38 AM CDT
>I dance pretty much nonstop, all the time, everyday.
But you can't use this as a gage for how much Non-Magic skill you would have, because you don't know how experience will be (would have been) awarded for your dancing. e.g. If my WM casts a capped SUF, he gets very little experience for the cast, and then none for the duration of the cast.
>And we use lore as our analogy because it is the only tert skillset we have to go by.
This seems logical, but you have to remember that if you were training Non-Magic skills out of combat, you would have not been training as much Lore out of combat.
>...someone suggested making the req. equal to WM armor reqs, which would be 470 @ 150th.
I wouldn't be too quick to ask for a higher Non-Magic req, just to get your grandfathered ranks bumped up. Without knowing how hard it will be to train Non-Magics, this could lead to the Non-Magic reqs being the limiting factor to circling.
But you can't use this as a gage for how much Non-Magic skill you would have, because you don't know how experience will be (would have been) awarded for your dancing. e.g. If my WM casts a capped SUF, he gets very little experience for the cast, and then none for the duration of the cast.
>And we use lore as our analogy because it is the only tert skillset we have to go by.
This seems logical, but you have to remember that if you were training Non-Magic skills out of combat, you would have not been training as much Lore out of combat.
>...someone suggested making the req. equal to WM armor reqs, which would be 470 @ 150th.
I wouldn't be too quick to ask for a higher Non-Magic req, just to get your grandfathered ranks bumped up. Without knowing how hard it will be to train Non-Magics, this could lead to the Non-Magic reqs being the limiting factor to circling.
LEEJ82
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 09:42 AM CDT
<<Learning the new magic may be different than TM...just not sure.
It will be. Learning TM is much more similar to learning a weapon skill than learning any of the other magic skills.
If you have a little dedication you can keep PM/Harness/Arcana moving basically all the time. Power Perception varies, but for a magic tert guild just perceiving every once in a while keeps it moving decently.
<<Any suggestion with regard to lore is stupid given how unbalancingly easy lores are to train (app/mech/vocals in particular).
The ease with which you learn lores is an intriguing parallel to the ease with which you learn magic, particularly if both are slotted tertiary.
It will be. Learning TM is much more similar to learning a weapon skill than learning any of the other magic skills.
If you have a little dedication you can keep PM/Harness/Arcana moving basically all the time. Power Perception varies, but for a magic tert guild just perceiving every once in a while keeps it moving decently.
<<Any suggestion with regard to lore is stupid given how unbalancingly easy lores are to train (app/mech/vocals in particular).
The ease with which you learn lores is an intriguing parallel to the ease with which you learn magic, particularly if both are slotted tertiary.
DRUHANL3
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 10:08 AM CDT
>If you have a little dedication you can keep Any Skill moving basically all the time.
Fixed that for you ;)
Fixed that for you ;)
VOLCANUS
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 10:38 AM CDT
>> But you can't use this as a gage for how much Non-Magic skill you would have, because you don't know how experience will be (would have been) awarded for your dancing. e.g. If my WM casts a capped SUF, he gets very little experience for the cast, and then none for the duration of the cast.
I don't play a barbarian, but wouldn't a dance be more comparable to bardic enchants? They use it and it pulses while preventing the use of other enchants. Bards would learn consistently for the duration of the enchant as should the barbarian.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 10:38 AM CDT
>>The ease with which you learn lores is an intriguing parallel to the ease with which you learn magic, particularly if both are slotted tertiary.
When casting you can't hum. The average hunter does not listen to a class in combat. In 3.0, training "mech" will require actual creation of an item, which is time not spent hunting.
This is the crux of the GM argument: it's quite impossible to come up with some formula to determine what your theoretical magic ranks should be. If you think your debilitation would be high because you roar a lot, that means you would have less mech/vocals/whatever, because you have to be in combat in order to roar something.
When casting you can't hum. The average hunter does not listen to a class in combat. In 3.0, training "mech" will require actual creation of an item, which is time not spent hunting.
This is the crux of the GM argument: it's quite impossible to come up with some formula to determine what your theoretical magic ranks should be. If you think your debilitation would be high because you roar a lot, that means you would have less mech/vocals/whatever, because you have to be in combat in order to roar something.
PENDUS
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 10:49 AM CDT
>>But you can't use this as a gage for how much Non-Magic skill you would have, because you don't know how experience will be (would have been) awarded for your dancing. e.g. If my WM casts a capped SUF, he gets very little experience for the cast, and then none for the duration of the cast.<<
We can make a good guess that we'd learn it by the duration of the ability since Kodius has said that once duration is capped that forms can last an hour plus. Plus the forms take time to ramp up to their full strength. So it would make sense that the abilities "pulse" over time to check if you can keep them going.
>>This seems logical, but you have to remember that if you were training Non-Magic skills out of combat, you would have not been training as much Lore out of combat.<<
Actually, you would. Lock climbing>fold for mech>swim>scholarship/teaching>repeat while humming while your combats are draining. If you take away the instruments I've never trained and that will be gone come 3.0, my lore average is 516. Take out vocals as well and it's still 511. Are you really suggesting that there's no possible way we'd have that much in our supernatural skills if we had trained them from day 1?
We can make a good guess that we'd learn it by the duration of the ability since Kodius has said that once duration is capped that forms can last an hour plus. Plus the forms take time to ramp up to their full strength. So it would make sense that the abilities "pulse" over time to check if you can keep them going.
>>This seems logical, but you have to remember that if you were training Non-Magic skills out of combat, you would have not been training as much Lore out of combat.<<
Actually, you would. Lock climbing>fold for mech>swim>scholarship/teaching>repeat while humming while your combats are draining. If you take away the instruments I've never trained and that will be gone come 3.0, my lore average is 516. Take out vocals as well and it's still 511. Are you really suggesting that there's no possible way we'd have that much in our supernatural skills if we had trained them from day 1?
DANFORDS2
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 10:53 AM CDT
>If my WM casts a capped SUF, he gets very little experience for the cast, and then none for the duration of the cast.
We don't know how experience will be awarded in Magic 3.0. If the goal is to make learning more inline with actual usage, I'm hoping it works like FA. You cast the spell, and then get pulsing experience as long as the spell is in effect.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Expert Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
We don't know how experience will be awarded in Magic 3.0. If the goal is to make learning more inline with actual usage, I'm hoping it works like FA. You cast the spell, and then get pulsing experience as long as the spell is in effect.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Expert Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
PENDUS
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 10:57 AM CDT
>>This is the crux of the GM argument: it's quite impossible to come up with some formula to determine what your theoretical magic ranks should be. If you think your debilitation would be high because you roar a lot, that means you would have less mech/vocals/whatever, because you have to be in combat in order to roar something.<<
Which is my problem. Last I saw, and this may have changed, but MUs are getting grandfathered based on their PM. That doesn't mean they cast debuffs on anything ever but their debilitation skill will still be high. I can't imagine a cleric running around casting CoZ or Soul Sickness on themselves to train debilitation. They get theirs based off another skill that may never have been used for debuffing. It's assumed that they do use it for that but barbs aren't getting that same benefit.
Which is my problem. Last I saw, and this may have changed, but MUs are getting grandfathered based on their PM. That doesn't mean they cast debuffs on anything ever but their debilitation skill will still be high. I can't imagine a cleric running around casting CoZ or Soul Sickness on themselves to train debilitation. They get theirs based off another skill that may never have been used for debuffing. It's assumed that they do use it for that but barbs aren't getting that same benefit.
LEEJ82
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 10:59 AM CDT
<<This is the crux of the GM argument: it's quite impossible to come up with some formula to determine what your theoretical magic ranks should be. If you think your debilitation would be high because you roar a lot, that means you would have less mech/vocals/whatever, because you have to be in combat in order to roar something.
Hence looking for a compromise.
Hence looking for a compromise.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 11:21 AM CDT
>>Which is my problem. Last I saw, and this may have changed, but MUs are getting grandfathered based on their PM. That doesn't mean they cast debuffs on anything ever but their debilitation skill will still be high. I can't imagine a cleric running around casting CoZ or Soul Sickness on themselves to train debilitation. They get theirs based off another skill that may never have been used for debuffing. It's assumed that they do use it for that but barbs aren't getting that same benefit.
I doubt using debuffs on yourself will train Debilitation.
I suggested raising the reqs to match warrior mage armor requirements, which I think is reasonable, which would be about ~450 ranks up to 150. Beyond that is a grey area. Maybe something like 30% of your highest weapon beyond the weapon requirements for 150?
So, as an example, if you needed 860 primary weapon for 150, and you had 1100 ranks, you'd get...
~450 IF (ranks for circle 150) + 30% of (1100-860), which would work out to be 690 IF ranks.
I doubt using debuffs on yourself will train Debilitation.
I suggested raising the reqs to match warrior mage armor requirements, which I think is reasonable, which would be about ~450 ranks up to 150. Beyond that is a grey area. Maybe something like 30% of your highest weapon beyond the weapon requirements for 150?
So, as an example, if you needed 860 primary weapon for 150, and you had 1100 ranks, you'd get...
~450 IF (ranks for circle 150) + 30% of (1100-860), which would work out to be 690 IF ranks.
DANFORDS2
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 11:23 AM CDT
>MUs are getting grandfathered based on their PM
But there's still the trade off he's talking about. The four new skills will be grandfathered at a percentage of our PM. They haven't announced the final formulas for it yet.
It's also not comparable to the Barbarian situation, because no skill exists to track your usage of roars/dances/berserks. There is no metric to say you roar/dance/berserk 24/7 versus only in combat versus only in emergencies versus never (however unlikely that is).
Elemental Lord Opieus, Expert Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
But there's still the trade off he's talking about. The four new skills will be grandfathered at a percentage of our PM. They haven't announced the final formulas for it yet.
It's also not comparable to the Barbarian situation, because no skill exists to track your usage of roars/dances/berserks. There is no metric to say you roar/dance/berserk 24/7 versus only in combat versus only in emergencies versus never (however unlikely that is).
Elemental Lord Opieus, Expert Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
PENDUS
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 11:27 AM CDT
>>I doubt using debuffs on yourself will train Debilitation.<<
Yeah I know, just saying that they are getting the debilitation based on PM when they may never have even cast a debuff.
Yeah I know, just saying that they are getting the debilitation based on PM when they may never have even cast a debuff.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 11:28 AM CDT
>>Yeah I know, just saying that they are getting the debilitation based on PM when they may never have even cast a debuff.
As a previous poster stated, the final formulas are still in the works, but they aren't getting 100% of PM grandfathered into each of Augmentation, Utility, Debilitation, and Warding. There will be some way of dividing it up.
As a previous poster stated, the final formulas are still in the works, but they aren't getting 100% of PM grandfathered into each of Augmentation, Utility, Debilitation, and Warding. There will be some way of dividing it up.
DRUHANL3
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 11:30 AM CDT
>We can make a good guess that we'd learn it by the duration of the ability since Kodius has said that once duration is capped that forms can last an hour plus. Plus the forms take time to ramp up to their full strength. So it would make sense that the abilities "pulse" over time to check if you can keep them going.
Have you ever had a dance end before you thought it should? This would indicate that they pulse, not the fact that they ramp up.
>Are you really suggesting that there's no possible way we'd have that much in our supernatural skills if we had trained them from day 1?
No. I'm suggesting there is no possible way to judge how much supernatural skill you'd have, based on your current skills, because you can't be sure that training the Supernatural skills wouldn't have affected the values of your current skills. e.g. if you did train say Strings, then your Mech would likely be lower - right?
Have you ever had a dance end before you thought it should? This would indicate that they pulse, not the fact that they ramp up.
>Are you really suggesting that there's no possible way we'd have that much in our supernatural skills if we had trained them from day 1?
No. I'm suggesting there is no possible way to judge how much supernatural skill you'd have, based on your current skills, because you can't be sure that training the Supernatural skills wouldn't have affected the values of your current skills. e.g. if you did train say Strings, then your Mech would likely be lower - right?
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 11:34 AM CDT
>>It's also not comparable to the Barbarian situation, because no skill exists to track your usage of roars/dances/berserks. There is no metric to say you roar/dance/berserk 24/7 versus only in combat versus only in emergencies versus never (however unlikely that is).
Comparing it to how much we roared, danced, berserked anyways is silly because it didn't train a skill. I am pretty sure if they had trained skills like they are going to, pretty much everyone would have roared/danced/berserked/formed whatever, enough to keep it moving pretty much every minute you were logged in.
It's simple logic, the skills would be high.
Mine would be way higher than any of my weapons.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Comparing it to how much we roared, danced, berserked anyways is silly because it didn't train a skill. I am pretty sure if they had trained skills like they are going to, pretty much everyone would have roared/danced/berserked/formed whatever, enough to keep it moving pretty much every minute you were logged in.
It's simple logic, the skills would be high.
Mine would be way higher than any of my weapons.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
PENDUS
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 11:36 AM CDT
>>But there's still the trade off he's talking about. The four new skills will be grandfathered at a percentage of our PM. They haven't announced the final formulas for it yet.<<
Right, and I know that which is why I didn't say take our highest lore and just give us that. :)
>>It's also not comparable to the Barbarian situation, because no skill exists to track your usage of roars/dances/berserks. There is no metric to say you roar/dance/berserk 24/7 versus only in combat versus only in emergencies versus never (however unlikely that is).<<
It is in that there's no metric to how much time you spent casting while training teaching or other lores instead of hunting which would teach other skills like debilitation. They are just granting that you(general you) used your spells in combat and grandfathering them on that. That's what we're asking for.
Right, and I know that which is why I didn't say take our highest lore and just give us that. :)
>>It's also not comparable to the Barbarian situation, because no skill exists to track your usage of roars/dances/berserks. There is no metric to say you roar/dance/berserk 24/7 versus only in combat versus only in emergencies versus never (however unlikely that is).<<
It is in that there's no metric to how much time you spent casting while training teaching or other lores instead of hunting which would teach other skills like debilitation. They are just granting that you(general you) used your spells in combat and grandfathering them on that. That's what we're asking for.
PENDUS
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 11:42 AM CDT
>>Have you ever had a dance end before you thought it should? This would indicate that they pulse, not the fact that they ramp up.<<
In 3.0 our abilities will ramp up. I've spoken to Kodius at length about our abilities and what he has planned at the past two Simucons.
>>No. I'm suggesting there is no possible way to judge how much supernatural skill you'd have, based on your current skills, because you can't be sure that training the Supernatural skills wouldn't have affected the values of your current skills. e.g. if you did train say Strings, then your Mech would likely be lower - right?<<
No, it wouldn't. Why? Because I can lock mech, then lock strings and/or another instrument and still have them draining while I lock survivals or scholarship through studying a book. One of my survival scripts on M'riss would lock vocals, climbing, mech, train FA and lock scholarship and I'd only do that when I finished locking my combats. I could have done more easily, I was just being lazy. It would take me about a half hour to lock all of those up and by then my combats would have drained to almost clear and I'd go back to hunting while those drained and I could just repeat that all day.
In 3.0 our abilities will ramp up. I've spoken to Kodius at length about our abilities and what he has planned at the past two Simucons.
>>No. I'm suggesting there is no possible way to judge how much supernatural skill you'd have, based on your current skills, because you can't be sure that training the Supernatural skills wouldn't have affected the values of your current skills. e.g. if you did train say Strings, then your Mech would likely be lower - right?<<
No, it wouldn't. Why? Because I can lock mech, then lock strings and/or another instrument and still have them draining while I lock survivals or scholarship through studying a book. One of my survival scripts on M'riss would lock vocals, climbing, mech, train FA and lock scholarship and I'd only do that when I finished locking my combats. I could have done more easily, I was just being lazy. It would take me about a half hour to lock all of those up and by then my combats would have drained to almost clear and I'd go back to hunting while those drained and I could just repeat that all day.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 11:50 AM CDT
>Have you ever had a dance end before you thought it should? This would indicate that they pulse, not the fact that they ramp up.
Barb abilities are getting redesigned. They WILL ramp in the new system we have been told.
Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.
Barb abilities are getting redesigned. They WILL ramp in the new system we have been told.
Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.
DANFORDS2
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 11:58 AM CDT
>They are just granting that you(general you) used your spells in combat and grandfathering them on that.
Originally it was going to be based on a combination of skills (I don't understand the uproar that changed it, but whatever). TM was going to affect Debilitation. The other skills made less sense, I guess.
>That's what we're asking for.
Primary Magic was how good you are at casting magic. Now there are four skills that are how good you are at casting magic of type X. They are directly and intrinsically related. Nothing like that exists for Inner Fire. But there is no comparable skill for overall usage of Inner Fire abilities currently. You're asking for completely unrelated skills to somehow impact your new Supernatural skills.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Expert Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
Originally it was going to be based on a combination of skills (I don't understand the uproar that changed it, but whatever). TM was going to affect Debilitation. The other skills made less sense, I guess.
>That's what we're asking for.
Primary Magic was how good you are at casting magic. Now there are four skills that are how good you are at casting magic of type X. They are directly and intrinsically related. Nothing like that exists for Inner Fire. But there is no comparable skill for overall usage of Inner Fire abilities currently. You're asking for completely unrelated skills to somehow impact your new Supernatural skills.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Expert Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
DRUHANL3
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 12:08 PM CDT
>Because I can lock mech, then lock strings and/or another instrument and still have them draining while I lock survivals or scholarship through studying a book.
You have a point here, but this argument could be made for any of the New Skills.
I could argue that I would have locked Augmentation, Utility, Debilitation, and Warding, as such I should get those grandfathered up to 100% of my PM, right?
Moreover, those Barbs that didn't train any Lores could argue that "Hey I would have trained Supernaturals", why should they be treated differently?
You have a point here, but this argument could be made for any of the New Skills.
I could argue that I would have locked Augmentation, Utility, Debilitation, and Warding, as such I should get those grandfathered up to 100% of my PM, right?
Moreover, those Barbs that didn't train any Lores could argue that "Hey I would have trained Supernaturals", why should they be treated differently?
BEVERAGEK
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 12:17 PM CDT
The answer is simple really.
Look at Madigan's primary armor versus his Primary Magic and come up with an algorithm based on those values to apply to Barbarians and their primary weapon :P
~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!
Look at Madigan's primary armor versus his Primary Magic and come up with an algorithm based on those values to apply to Barbarians and their primary weapon :P
~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!
NEELD
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 12:51 PM CDT
<<Look at Madigan's primary armor versus his Primary Magic and come up with an algorithm based on those values to apply to Barbarians and their primary weapon :P
Actually, not a bad analogy. 900/700 | shield/PM. I would view myself as an average trainer (1-4 hours/day) and focused heavily on both shield and PM over the course of running Madigan. Not even close to the beastly numbers many people have in the game, but fairly average I would say of the "upper tier" characters playing nowadays.
I am the poster child for "steady training results in decent skills over time".
Madigan
Actually, not a bad analogy. 900/700 | shield/PM. I would view myself as an average trainer (1-4 hours/day) and focused heavily on both shield and PM over the course of running Madigan. Not even close to the beastly numbers many people have in the game, but fairly average I would say of the "upper tier" characters playing nowadays.
I am the poster child for "steady training results in decent skills over time".
Madigan
PENDUS
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 12:52 PM CDT
>>Primary Magic was how good you are at casting magic. Now there are four skills that are how good you are at casting magic of type X. They are directly and intrinsically related. Nothing like that exists for Inner Fire. But there is no comparable skill for overall usage of Inner Fire abilities currently. You're asking for completely unrelated skills to somehow impact your new Supernatural skills.<<
Right and I get that. But they are the most comparable skills barbs have. Barbs have the highest in combat reqs in the game. So it makes sense that they would spend the most time in combat training to circle. I completely get where the GMs are coming from, I just don't agree with the numbers they are using. I fully admit there's no foolproof method for barbs, just like there won't be for thieves when they get converted over.
Right and I get that. But they are the most comparable skills barbs have. Barbs have the highest in combat reqs in the game. So it makes sense that they would spend the most time in combat training to circle. I completely get where the GMs are coming from, I just don't agree with the numbers they are using. I fully admit there's no foolproof method for barbs, just like there won't be for thieves when they get converted over.
HANNELK8
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 01:25 PM CDT
>>Primary Magic was how good you are at casting magic. Now there are four skills that are how good you are at casting magic of type X. They are directly and intrinsically related. Nothing like that exists for Inner Fire. But there is no comparable skill for overall usage of Inner Fire abilities currently. You're asking for completely unrelated skills to somehow impact your new Supernatural skills.<<
Right, just as a Barbarian's weapon skills would be directly and intrinsically related to the amount of inner fire and supernatural abilities they would accrue over the course of training in combat. The monkey wrench that's being thrown into the equation here is that with mages you're splitting a primary skillset into a primary skillset, whereas Barbs are stuck with the transition of new ranks into our tertiary skillset. Hence why lore, our only trainable tertiary skillset, is being used comparatively for potential ranks. I don't think that is so terribly unreasonable.
>>Once we get to a point where we can actually test some of this stuff we'll see if the amount of grandfathering makes sense. Until then I wouldn't get too worked up over it.<<
And thanks for the input, Kodius. Hope we're not driving ya nuts with this discussion as I know there's been a lot of time and effort put into determining how these ranks would be grandfathered. Honestly, so long as I can still compete against other guilds at-level with my abilities, I don't care what the actual numbers read (as nice as the extra tdp's might be).
Right, just as a Barbarian's weapon skills would be directly and intrinsically related to the amount of inner fire and supernatural abilities they would accrue over the course of training in combat. The monkey wrench that's being thrown into the equation here is that with mages you're splitting a primary skillset into a primary skillset, whereas Barbs are stuck with the transition of new ranks into our tertiary skillset. Hence why lore, our only trainable tertiary skillset, is being used comparatively for potential ranks. I don't think that is so terribly unreasonable.
>>Once we get to a point where we can actually test some of this stuff we'll see if the amount of grandfathering makes sense. Until then I wouldn't get too worked up over it.<<
And thanks for the input, Kodius. Hope we're not driving ya nuts with this discussion as I know there's been a lot of time and effort put into determining how these ranks would be grandfathered. Honestly, so long as I can still compete against other guilds at-level with my abilities, I don't care what the actual numbers read (as nice as the extra tdp's might be).
DURATHING
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 01:32 PM CDT
As an aside...
Would it be possible for the GMs to add counters to the current abilities (Thief and Barb both). It wouldn't be metrics for the entire career, but it would be metrics from now until much closer to the actual split. They could use those metrics to guesstimate average usage over the career.
I'd probably look at:
Avg. Dances per day
Avg. Roars per day,
etc.
If memory allows, have a counter for each ability that increments when the ability activates (or pulses).
Near the release of 3.0: come up with a weight for each ability; add the characters together, take the mean; and then use the weighted mean to determine the global barbarian grandfathering algorithm.
Alternately, extrapolate each character's per-day numbers out for their career, and develop an algorithm that grandfathers on a per-character basis.
Thieves would get a better deal from this, as the metrics would be in place for longer. More data == good. But I think even a few months of data would be extremely useful for barbarians as well.
---
Obviously, I'm not sure how difficult or even feasible it would be to add these counters in, but it might be something worthwhile to investigate.
Would it be possible for the GMs to add counters to the current abilities (Thief and Barb both). It wouldn't be metrics for the entire career, but it would be metrics from now until much closer to the actual split. They could use those metrics to guesstimate average usage over the career.
I'd probably look at:
Avg. Dances per day
Avg. Roars per day,
etc.
If memory allows, have a counter for each ability that increments when the ability activates (or pulses).
Near the release of 3.0: come up with a weight for each ability; add the characters together, take the mean; and then use the weighted mean to determine the global barbarian grandfathering algorithm.
Alternately, extrapolate each character's per-day numbers out for their career, and develop an algorithm that grandfathers on a per-character basis.
Thieves would get a better deal from this, as the metrics would be in place for longer. More data == good. But I think even a few months of data would be extremely useful for barbarians as well.
---
Obviously, I'm not sure how difficult or even feasible it would be to add these counters in, but it might be something worthwhile to investigate.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 01:39 PM CDT
Does DR really support that sort of in depth data tracking though? From GM posts I get the feeling even if thu did do something like that it would be a super drain on the system.
Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.
Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.
DRUHANL3
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 01:46 PM CDT
>Right and I get that. But they are the most comparable skills barbs have.
Belaboring this point isn't going anywhere. It boils down to you saying "I would have trained Supernaturals higher - look at my Lore Skill".
That [or similar] can be said for any skill that is being grandfathered.
Belaboring this point isn't going anywhere. It boils down to you saying "I would have trained Supernaturals higher - look at my Lore Skill".
That [or similar] can be said for any skill that is being grandfathered.
DURATHING
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 01:54 PM CDT
An integer increment shouldn't* be too bad, especially at a time that it's already accessing the memory for your character. Global counters might be more CPU intensive, since they would require a lock to prevent simultaneous updates. I would hazard a guess that the memory for the counters would be harder to come by.
From what I've seen posted, there might be metrics for the treasure system, which would be much more resource intensive than this (given the number of people killing stuff at any given second). The code for the current abilities might be too much of a tangled mess to do this quickly as well - which is needed so that the rest of the projects can stay on track.
But again, I'm just saying that this might be investigated as an alternate to spending a lot of time developing an method to grandfather and then firefighting on the forums for weeks on end. IF this were to be done, it would give each character the knowledge that they contributed to their ranks.
I have some more thoughts on this, but I'll hold off until a GM can say if it even might be feasible. :)
*This is spoken with no knowledge of how GSL works and could be entirely wrong for this language.
From what I've seen posted, there might be metrics for the treasure system, which would be much more resource intensive than this (given the number of people killing stuff at any given second). The code for the current abilities might be too much of a tangled mess to do this quickly as well - which is needed so that the rest of the projects can stay on track.
But again, I'm just saying that this might be investigated as an alternate to spending a lot of time developing an method to grandfather and then firefighting on the forums for weeks on end. IF this were to be done, it would give each character the knowledge that they contributed to their ranks.
I have some more thoughts on this, but I'll hold off until a GM can say if it even might be feasible. :)
*This is spoken with no knowledge of how GSL works and could be entirely wrong for this language.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 02:31 PM CDT
The problem with counters has been mentioned previously. If we are alerted that counters will determine our grandfathering ranks, we will run those counters to the moon. If we are not alerted about the counter, the data will not be indicative of actual usage, because if we did have the ability to train active ranks by using skills, we would be using them 24/7 whether we needed them or not just for training purposes.
DURATHING
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 02:38 PM CDT
This:
>if we did have the ability to train active ranks by using skills, we would be using them 24/7 whether we needed them or not just for training purposes.
Seems to be the same as this:
>If we are alerted that counters will determine our grandfathering ranks, we will run those counters to the moon
Because in effect, the counters are training your skill, and thus are indicative of how you would use if it trained your skill.
>if we did have the ability to train active ranks by using skills, we would be using them 24/7 whether we needed them or not just for training purposes.
Seems to be the same as this:
>If we are alerted that counters will determine our grandfathering ranks, we will run those counters to the moon
Because in effect, the counters are training your skill, and thus are indicative of how you would use if it trained your skill.
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 03:50 PM CDT
>>A lot of posts
Kodius is right - Let's not get too worked up about things until we start testing them and can see how they look.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Kodius is right - Let's not get too worked up about things until we start testing them and can see how they look.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/22/2012 10:22 PM CDT
>>I could argue that I would have locked Augmentation, Utility, Debilitation, and Warding, as such I should get those grandfathered up to 100% of my PM, right?
Sure, why don't you go argue that? We aren't getting 80%. I am getting 40%. So maybe you should get 40% since you think it's ok.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Sure, why don't you go argue that? We aren't getting 80%. I am getting 40%. So maybe you should get 40% since you think it's ok.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
JARAGONA
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/23/2012 05:57 AM CDT
>>Sure, why don't you go argue that? We aren't getting 80%. I am getting 40%. So maybe you should get 40% since you think it's ok.
Ohhh! Told.
You also see a shiny scorecard and a shiny scorecard.
Obvious paths: none.
> read scorec
A shiny scorecard reads:
"Liurilias - 747"
> read other scorec
A shiny scorecard reads:
"Zerreck - 2456"
Ohhh! Told.
You also see a shiny scorecard and a shiny scorecard.
Obvious paths: none.
> read scorec
A shiny scorecard reads:
"Liurilias - 747"
> read other scorec
A shiny scorecard reads:
"Zerreck - 2456"
DANFORDS2
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/23/2012 07:50 AM CDT
>I am getting 40%
You're getting 40% of what exactly?
Elemental Lord Opieus, Expert Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
You're getting 40% of what exactly?
Elemental Lord Opieus, Expert Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
DRUHANL3
Re: Weapon grandfathering vs Magic grandfathering
03/23/2012 08:20 AM CDT
>Sure, why don't you go argue that? We aren't getting 80%. I am getting 40%. So maybe you should get 40% since you think it's ok.
I would be perfectly happy with 40%, if Armifer told me that 40% would allow my M3.0 abilities to function at the same level as they are currently.
But, that's not the case. In fact, Armifer implied that Magic Skill base functionality won't be changing in M3.0.
I would be perfectly happy with 40%, if Armifer told me that 40% would allow my M3.0 abilities to function at the same level as they are currently.
But, that's not the case. In fact, Armifer implied that Magic Skill base functionality won't be changing in M3.0.
