>>I totally get that. If I had any metric similar to PM to say "Pendus rages all the time", believe me I'd be using it.

Yeah, but if "raging" taught a skill, everyone would rage all the time in combat even if they didn't need to, to defeat their opponent right?

Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons

>>I am sure, without a doubt, that if GMs were capable of knowing that you cast EASE 226,753 times, BOLT 63,235 times, and MAF 12 times, they'd give magic ranks based on that knowledge

I would kill for this kind of information, for magic or anything else.

I'm pretty sure someone in TF could put a counter into a genie-type script for 1 day. then just multiply it out.

:-)



"we're doing it for the good of mankind," said the philosophers of murder, waiting for the rest of the world to congratulate them"-Elie Wiesel <the gates of the forest>

>>I totally get that. If I had any metric similar to PM to say "Pendus rages all the time", believe me I'd be using it.<<

I'd wager that 99% of all barbarians hunting are using some form of buff.

>>Yes, but this is even more dramatically inaccurate than grandfathering to-circle. It puts a chart-reading grass-braider as a barbarian who's raged far more than one who's spent most of his life on the battlefield.<<

I don't think it is since it's quite easy to train at least two lores in combat.

Same here Magdar. Its funny because I have been using either Eagle or Badger all the time in the past years. I can dance both back to back forever so I would keep them up virtually forever whenever I'm not hunting. There's no reason not to, especially with the pvp I've been involved in.

I don't think everything has been set in stone yet so hopefully it turns out a bit better for us.

---

Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

I wonder if it's possible to determine how long a barbarian has known each dance, and then to augment the experience based on that time. Those who knew the dances or circled earlier would get more experience. It would be better if you could further augment this by play hours post learning. It's not perfect, may not even be possible, but it would give a differentiation between a new 150 and a 150 for 5 years.

>> The problem using that metric is that someone with a Barbarian who hit 150th and then got shelved so they could focus on their new Bard would have the same amount of skill grandfathered as someone who proactively played their Barbarian even after hitting 150.

This could be resolved by further augmenting by hours played. If that metric is even stored.

Want to go on the record that 370 is pretty low compared to 860 weapon
The amount of time in combat to gain those ranks (especially based on how slow things move after 600) makes 370 pretty unrealistic.

That being said, 370 is better than 0

I just hope Theifs get the same treatment when khri is re examined

>>I would prefer the top 3 maybe? Or even top 4.

Oh come on, now you're just gaming the system because you want 600 ranks of IF.

I could see the argument for not including all three instrument skills in the average, but you should at least include the highest. You should also probably throw out Vocals completely, as much as I am sure everyone (myself included) would love to see that count towards IF average.

I don't give a crap about my lores either, they just move while I'm hunting for extra tdps. And since they are our other tertiary skill set, we can make a solid guess as to what our supernatural skills would have been.

>>If they told me 2 years ago that playing musical instruments, teaching and fishing would be part of what my inner fire is based on, I would go have spent hours.. er NO, I probably would not would you? I point to my mech lore skill (801) as an example of how a motivated barbarian can move a tert skill. And suggest it as a basis for grandfathering another tert skill set, SPIRIT, since EVERY barbarian would be motivated to work that tert skill set or re roll into another guild.

How do you quantify spirit? Do your have more spirit then me since you forged more then me? Do I have more spirit then you because I play an instrument and you don't? Do I have more spirit cause my teaching is higher? Do you have more cause you're also a master scholar? Etc. etc. etc.

Honestly, we all use Bear for swimming and Cobra for backtraining and Panther for origami, but the place we are using our abilities most of the time is combat. What's the best indicator of that? Combat ranks, which correlate directly with circle for barbarians.

If you're arguing the reqs should be higher and thus the grandfathering higher, I agree, otherwise I'm not sure lore makes any more sense then perception or escaping or foraging.

I am arguing that 801 mech lore at 158th circle equiv could be a yard stick for ALL BARBARIANS. The point is not that I should have more than you. The point is a motivated barbarian can move a tertiary skill to 2 or 3 times the 370 proposed and suggested myself and other forging barbarians be used as a guide on how high these new tert. skills should be set.

______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Bit Player of M'Riss

>NO, I probably would not would you? I point to my mech lore skill (801) as an example of....

Get pyra;drop pyra is such a difficult and time consuming process to master. I have no idea how you managed it! Might want to choose a less free ranks skill. Like humming.

---

Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.

That's actually no different Pendus. I could just as easily say you've been training that skill out of combat too.

The point is, not everyone is the same, and there's no way to prove it either way.

Anyway, I'm not here to start a fight -- I mostly just wanted to post that table in support of the 50% of weapon ranks suggestion.

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

Interestingly enough, I have NEVER used a pyra to learn mech. I move around too much as I hunted. So my mech is from the forge, brading vines, caving beades, carving divination bones and folding paper. None of which I do in combat. I did use one of those buckets for a short time till they were banned as magic.. I felt and still feel pyrmids are to magic for a barb to use.

Funny hmmm? I should have gone with them and been well over 1000 ranks in mech.

______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Bit Player of M'Riss

>>Anyway, I'm not here to start a fight -- I mostly just wanted to post that table in support of the 50% of weapon ranks suggestion.

Remember, Barbs were promised that their effectiveness in the new system would be equivalent (or close to it) to their effectiveness in the old system. This 50% thing does not address the scaling issue. The simple fact of the matter is, Barbs will need to have a much higher 150th circle requirement than 430 or higher level (and maybe just about all) Barbs will completely stink when using their abilities. Imagine only being able to stack 3 forms and not the 4 forms, 2 zerks, and 1 meditation at 150th, or having them only last 7 minutes each. Or using Wail just once and having your voice destroyed like you just roared 300 times (rough example). Then, having to backtrain hundreds of ranks just to catch up to where you are now even though you're 150th circle.

I can tell you that I've kept excitement of Barbs 3.0 for a long time and will not want to see a scenario like that, and I'm assuming GMs don't want to see a scenario where any Barb will nearly maximize/cap the ability to use their own abilities effectively at just 370-430 ranks. I can't think of any solution that isn't sort of silly right now other than higher circle reqs/grandfathering. This means the scaling has to work well, and I honestly don't think it would be bad to grandfather 600+ ranks (or however much for balanced scaling) to the 150th Barb, seeing as how the WM/MM/Cleric equivalent of that Barb will likely see 900-1000+ ranks of grandfathering to each of their new skills (the ones that are being grandfathered).

---

Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

>>It is not worth more of my effort to argue over a few hundred TDP's, so I am done commenting here.<<

It's not the TDPs that's the issue, it's that our abilities and magical defenses will be based off those skills. Let's say a new critter is released with a supernatural attack as their special ability. They would either have to be scaled down so barbarians could hunt them without getting maimed by the special thanks to the lack of adequate ranks in warding which would make them very easy for mages, or the contest needs to be skewed heavily in favor of warding, which kinda makes the skill pointless and right back to where we are now with barbs at the high end being damn near immune to magic cast on them.

>>That's actually no different Pendus. I could just as easily say you've been training that skill out of combat too.<<

You could, but I can say that all MUs can and do work all but one magic skill out of combat, yet they are being grandfathered based on PM ranks. Just because someone sat in the empath's guild being taught and cast PFE for hundreds of hours doesn't mean they now can cast a debuff on me. You and I have sparred on more than one occasion and your enchantes still beat my BMR. Take away my BMR and have your enchantes be a pure skill check. Can you see your 1000+ debilitation skill failing against the proposed 370 warding I'd receive? There lies the problem. It would work similarly for PVE.

>>The point is, not everyone is the same, and there's no way to prove it either way.<<

Not everyone is the same, and there's the problem. We're being grandfathered the same way as mages even though we haven't trained like mages ever.

>>Anyway, I'm not here to start a fight -- I mostly just wanted to post that table in support of the 50% of weapon ranks suggestion.<<

I know, and I respect your opinion. I just want to ask your opinion on this. I have not done the math or even looked at the bard magic reqs for 3.0. These numbers are purely hypothetical on my part. Let's say you have 1000 PM right now and your grandfathered to 50% of that for your PM. Now you can't debuff at level critters as effectively as you are now. And possibly not be able to buff yourself as effectively. Wouldn't you have an issue with having to backtrain hundreds of ranks? I know the GMs say we won't lose effectiveness, but is it really fair to make one guild backtrain hundreds of ranks in a tert skill while the other guilds who are MUs get grandfathered to vastly higher ranks because the system that had been in place rewarded standing and doing

prep Spell
charge my cambrinthitem 10
focus my cambrinthitem
cast
repeat

without any real danger to yourself. Yeah I'm asking for it to be based of lore since it is our tert skillset that we can currently train, but at least an average of the top two would be somewhat close to what the number would be if I learned a skill by using my abilities. It'd be lower than what I think I'd have, but it'd be almost double what the proposed system is set up for.

>> Can you see your 1000+ debilitation skill failing against the proposed 370 warding I'd receive? There lies the problem. It would work similarly for PVE.

That's not how those types of magic work. every non-TM magic subset that attacks against other player is most likely going to be a "vs stat" type situation.

http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:Magic_3.0_Contested_Spell_Inputs_-_8/7/2010_-_19:27:04

---

hypocrite, thy name is teveshszat, and i just hope i'm there to see you when you're broght down. - GERSTEINJ2

>>Get pyra;drop pyra is such a difficult and time consuming process to master. I have no idea how you managed it! Might want to choose a less free ranks skill. Like humming.

I'm ALWAYS using a dance in combat.
Pyramids don't work more than half the time IG(no sunlight).
I used Badger exclusively for training from the time I came back in 2010 to the point that MO fizzled out. I'd never enter combat without it on and my script would always redance every time it fell.

I used cobra/wolverine/eagle/dragon for back-training.

If you're trying to compare Mech vs worst case Inner Magic

Don't

Inner fire would be a LOT higher in 99.99% of every case and somewhat higher in the other .0.1%.

I have 728 tert appraisal and I didn't train it for such a long time, its ridiculous. But the whole time I was dancing.

---

IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

Answering your question Pendus,

>>I know the GMs say we won't lose effectiveness, but is it really fair to make one guild backtrain hundreds of ranks in a tert skill while the other guilds who are MUs get grandfathered to vastly higher ranks because the system that had been in place rewarded standing and doing

This doesn't make sense. If you're not losing effectiveness then what do you need to backtrain? I'm assuming that the "cap" of all of your Barbarian abilities will be front loaded i.e. you get max bonus at maybe say 370 ranks. From there, any additional ranks you accrue serve for things such as duration, or in Debilitating's case maybe how quickly your voice recovers after roaring. I don't know the specifics.

So ultimately, you're not losing effectiveness because you're still getting the max bonus from your dances or whatever. Granted, maybe some of your abilities are getting nerfed so you're not getting as high of a bonus as you get right now, but you'll still be at the "cap" for that ability in the new system.

This is all assumption on my part -- I'm just trying to make sense out of what they've said.

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

>>I'm assuming that the "cap" of all of your Barbarian abilities will be front loaded i.e. you get max bonus at maybe say 370 ranks.

>I just assumed they wouldn't want to go this route. But if so, then I'm all for it. Not really fair or balanced but it beats the backtraining alternative. :)

I believe Kodius mentioned that he set it up so that barbarian abilities gain most of their effectiveness early on. The way it sounded was some sort of logarithmic growth scale, where 90% of the effectiveness comes online very quickly, and additional skill will slooowly get the rest of it. (Made up numbers).