So last night we were discussing the Landing's status as a protecorate of the Empire. We realized we couldn't quite pinpoint when this started, just that it's been a known "thing" for awhile.

Kenstrom (Or Scribes, maybe?) - could you maybe give us a quick overview about what this means and where it came from? The recorded info on this is... sparse.

Signed,
Raelee and her Strings

>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."

>Read geijons post where he cut and pasted fron old logs. It was a term given by the empire to give status to the landing.

I probably should have called this thread something else. What it means, loosely, is known. But I think we are lacking some of the history on it.

I'm about 99.9% sure it dates back to far earlier than the earliest mention Geijon found - so I was hoping for some more info on when this was established and the details of the treaty... since nobody can seem to find it.

Signed,
Raelee and her Strings

>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."

Truth be told, it's something that has organically developed over the last ten years or more based on the constant intervention of Imperial troops (generally in the form of provincial troops, i.e., Hendorans, Vornavians, etc). Kenstrom definitely should correct me, but from our perspective the Empire has had to deal with one major 'the fate of the world is on precipice' so often originating or focused on the Landing, that it's demonstrated a couple things to the Empire from a tactical stand point.

1) Serious crap happens in the Landing and it seems to very often flow downhill to affect the Empire.

2) Often times as a result, the Empire has provided troops to help protect the Landing as an extension of protecting itself.

3) Protecting the Landing is key to protecting the northern realm of the Empire.

That said, I'll also quote this wonderful bit from one of our earliest published history docs:

<<In the two years since her rise to power, Mynal'lyanna's imperial troops have doubled in numbers. Used by former emperors to garrison the city and as shipboard troops to ensure the safety of coastal commerce, the empress has instead used her troops to isolate baronies which have failed to fulfill their imperial obligations.

<<All of this has had an effect on even a distant frontier town like Wehnimer's Landing. Neighboring barons who have viewed the Landing as too distant and paltry to trifle with in the past are now reassessing the situation. Wehnimer's is a port town, and given the empress' vow to expand the empire across oceans, any port has a new potential for trade and a possible influx of imperial silver as new ships are commissioned. Also, with the empress' increase in troops has come an increase in the baronial taxes to support them, and every baron is now looking for any undeveloped source of income which might lie close to hand. Even if that source does not currently lie within his barony.

The Landing and its potential has been on Turamzzyrian minds for nearly twenty years. The events that have happened in the last several have helped push the Empire to seriously consider its importance to the Empire, be it militarily or economically.

In short, the Landing as a protectorate declared by the Empire is relatively new. The Landing as the focus of growing interest to the human empire? Been happening for nearly twenty years! :D

There is no treaty. This is by fiat.

That help?

GM Scribes

>>And I would suppose recent events don't really help - IE, REALLY bad things happening (Kestrel assassination, for example) tying back to the Landing.


Precisely. So far, in recent times:

* Murder of an imperial inquisitor (yes, proven to have been done by the urnon golem, but happened in the area nonetheless)
* Councilman using the town/port to smuggle weapons to the krolvin to fight the Empire
* Sanctuary for many of the people rumored to be involved in the assassination of Earl Kestrel
* The site of the mysterious death of Grand Magister Tayeros
* Home to Walkar who used a shapeshifter to try to secretly control Talador, and then turned into an abomination that marched on imperial territories
* Housed/houses individuals said to have taken blood oaths to the imperial enemy Elithain Cross and conduct a ritual to summon demonic chimera to lay waste to portions of the Empire
* HQ of the criminal organization known as the Brotherhood of Rooks who have killed/wounded Vornanvian soldiers, damaged imperial ships, aided in arming krolvin, led by Drangell the wanted criminal, were responsible for the murder of a Taladorian noble's daughter, and robbed from the banks/shops of Solhaven.
* Still housing a forest of evil black trees
* Positoned near Melgorehn's Reach which has now drawn the attention of many curious people

I'm sure I'm missing some things, hehe. Now, that list looks bad, but contrast it with the good as well. Heroes from the town, helping to save the world, the empire, the landing, etc. Defenders and support for Idolone, Mestanir, Demonwall, etc. So not just the "bad" is getting attention, but it's definitely putting a lot of spotlight on the Landing, so it's only logical there'd be some kind of trusted eyes/ears in and on the location in the after math of such chaos and tragedy.

This should be fun.

-GM Kenstrom-
Waylayer of Wehnimer's Landing
Human Guru
Giantmen Guru

I also forgot to add that a few years ago, Aurmont was playing darts with a map of the continent.

GM Scribes

P.S.

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Wehnimer%27s_Landing

Looks like the history of the Landing needs a couple additions. :D

GM Scribes

>P.S.

>https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Wehnimer%27s_Landing

>Looks like the history of the Landing needs a couple additions. :D

not really my forte, but happy to edit for formatting later.

<<So... has anybody established why ANYBODY still lives in the landing,>>

Come for the mayhem, stay for Helga's stew.

-The mind behind Rowmi's eyes.

<<There is no treaty. This is by fiat.>>

<<That help?>>

<<GM Scribes>>

Actually, the idea of it being a fiat DOES help. Thanks.


<<Maybe we should come together as a town and start taking responsibility for ourselves.>>

Oh, don't you worry about that.

<<It is also a mecca for a variety of traders/merchants who want to avoid Imperial confrontation.>>

And Imperial regulation!

Christine and Bekke :)

Of that list of Terrible Things the Wicked Ol' Landing Has Done to the Poor Innocent Li'l Empire, only a few items are directly related to the people of Wehnimer's Landing:

- Sanctuary for the murderers of Earl Kestrel
- Home to followers of Cross, which is admittedly very bad juju from the Empire's perspective
- Home to the Rooks, the agents directly responsible for Cosima's murder

All the others are either an accident of fate (being close to Melgorehn's Reach and therefore at the epicenter of Althedeus' attempt to enter this valence, for example), no longer an occasion for concern to the Empire (Walkar and Cross are both dead while Stephos deArchon and Grishom Stone are nowhere near the Landing), or can't be definitively linked to the people there (Tayeros' death). Not to minimize the Empire's entirely understandable urge to tame what they undoubtedly see as the dangerous wilderness to their north, but a lot of the stuff that happens there has nothing to do with the citizenry. Establishing an embassy, negotiating extradition, seeking recompense for losses to Talador, and sending a small team of diplomats (okay, "spies" might be a better term) would be reasonable responses. Building a military encampment on the town's doorstep and filling it with soldiers, on the other hand, might not go over as well to the town's staunchest defenders.

From a narrative standpoint, I love that the actions and choices people made still resonate and will continue to affect everything from political stances to troops in town. It's that kind of responsiveness and real consequences that make me so delighted with the game. I'm pretty sure we aren't really supposed to like Thadston; he's even ticking off fellow Imperial citizens with his land-grab in Talador, and he's done absolutely nothing to establish diplomatic relationships with a town that could use some leadership right now. Had you sent in someone like Lheren Hochstib who comes across as sympathetic and likeable despite his Koary ways, it might forestall trouble instead of stirring it. You wouldn't stir trouble, would you, Kenstrom? Nahhhh, not you!

It makes me happy that the same GMs who can play characters my sorceress genuinely likes and respects can also play people she just wants to shred on sight. I love well-played jerks!

>This should be fun.

I completely agree! :)

Imperial regulation?

For the record no gov changes or laws were forced on the citizens of the landing. Little fear should be shown of the eddict as the earl has never been racist in all his years of rule. Heck the fact that an orc is still the mayor of the town should show that the earl is not interested in taking over. The fact that the knight even mention that the outpost will not be inside the walls says a lot. There has been no hendorian swords pointed at us nor is there any hendorian leaders of the landing. If anything some people in town are showing more prejudices in harming the imperials without being provoked then what they claim the imperials are. The Earl has come to our aid many times now and shown himself to be a friend of the landing. Until proven otherwise i advise using political means to have the outpost removed. With that said i wont allow any aggression towards this town or its people. I simply have not seen the hendorians being hostile and sadly i cant say the same about some of my fellow citizens.

Puptilian

>>It makes me happy that the same GMs who can play characters my sorceress genuinely likes and respects can also play people she just wants to shred on sight. I love well-played jerks!

I wonder what that says about my mental stability, haha.

>>I'm pretty sure we aren't really supposed to like Thadston; he's even ticking off fellow Imperial citizens with his land-grab in Talador,

More will no doubt come out about this, but since nobles and lords of Hendor are essentially running Talador for the time being, their kick back is some money, land, taxes, etc. Thad's no different, except, he doesn't get to really enjoy his land yet in Talador, since he's playing with those troublemakers in Landing, hehe.

And hey! Who said Thad wasn't to be liked? Put yourself in this guy's shoes! He's far from his home, far from his new land, has to build a new home from the ground up, and the citizens of Landing's aren't likely to be super friendly all of the time, the tension is thick, and this is just the beginning!

Sir Thadston. Brave Knight, New World. Coming this Spring to ABC.

-GM Kenstrom-
Waylayer of Wehnimer's Landing
Human Guru
Giantmen Guru

>>Yes this is tongue in cheek... but wouldn't you and your friends rather live somewhere.... safe? And also very important part of that statement is wanting to LIVE. There's other places in the lands that are outside imperial control that seem to have much less giant fiery nightly death.

Define safe.

Every major outpost has seen it's share of trouble, even the walled fortress of Ta'Vaalor sits a mere league from infestations of orcs, goblins, undead and likely death to the unwary explorer.. This after thousands of years of occupation.

>>As for the temple of Lorminstra being here... I ask which came first? Did that spring up in order to facilitate the volume discount that's needed for resurrecting so many people? I mean, I'm pretty sure there's a reason why the whole "dying" thing is usually a one way trip.

Landingner's are not the only people who worship, and pay tithe to the goddess for intervention. However, it should be stated that Lorminstra's grace is not as simple as a mere trinket in a bucket, nor does she offer it to everyone, even devout Liabolist.. See Ser Darvard for that reference.

By the best estimation, there are around 3-400 regular adventurers in and out and around Elanthia at any given time in the course of a day. The death toll of commoners, innocents and happen to be in the area, puts the standing, living breathing, non adventuring class of people in just the Landing to be around 10,000 strong. They are present in nearly every step you make as you walk though town.

The population of the entire Human Empire must measure in the millions, and the Elven nations eclipses that highly. So while it may feel to some that it is not an ideal locale, Wehnimer's Landing, it should be reminded that, “It's a dangerous business, going out your door."

This work isn't for everybody, and a lot of those who it is not for, are pretty glad that it -is- for some.




- This space is left blank intentionally. -

>So... has anybody established why ANYBODY still lives in the landing, given the nigh unto constant invasions, massive property damage, etc. I mean, adventurers love loot, but the vast majority of people in the town shouldn't be adventurers, right?

My character doesn't currently conduct baby-blood-fueled rituals or eat the flesh of her victims or sacrifice puppies on Marluvian altars, but if she ever changes her mind about those things, the Landing is the place to be. Sorcery's less constrained in the Landing than it is in many other places, and though some of those places are even more tolerant of it, they lack the Landing's proximity to fascinating stuff like killer trees and porous valences with world-devouring nightmares on the other side. That's catnip to sorcerers!

As for the people who aren't adventurers, there's the glaes trade, the docks, the monastery at Voln, the surprisingly refined tastes of wealthy adventurers and the diversity of a port town to attract them and keep them here. Also, Icemule's damned nippy this time of year.

You would think a mountain that wasn't always there would have drawn a lot of attention in the first place. ;)

Personally, I would have occupied the Landing decades ago, even before the Vvrael. If you ask my 1,300+ year old sorcerer why this keeps happening "all of a sudden", he puts a lot of the blame on Lorminstra for making fortune hunters virtually immortal. But he's mostly there for the Marluvian altars and infant blood rituals, so...

- Xorus' player

---

The vereri says, "You have no reason to fear me, Xorus."

The nedum vereri smiles soothingly at you. You feel your resistance melt away!
d100 == 1 FUMBLE!

Of that list of Terrible Things the Wicked Ol' Landing Has Done to the Poor Innocent Li'l Empire, only a few items are directly related to the people of Wehnimer's Landing..

-Lylia's player

The whole list is pretty linked. FORTHWITH I shall elaborate on those links listed! Also of course this is an OOC post for clarification purposes.

1) Murder of an imperial inquisitor (yes, proven to have been done by the urnon golem, but happened in the area nonetheless)

-In the process of that, despite the finality of the situation being decided by the urnon golem, Landing citizens directly interfered and hindered the inquiry. This includes but isn't limited to strong arming, threats, general disagreement to cooperate with a lawful faction seeking the source of the krolvin's armaments, and Landing citizens directly attacking Estorian knights that were part of Rinhale Hurrst's retinue.

2) Councilman using the town/port to smuggle weapons to the krolvin to fight the Empire

-See above. As such, by right of suffrage and representation, that councilman speaks on behalf of and with the sanction of the citizens of Wehnimer's Landing. The Landing's government is a democratic one- these elected officials are, in fact, elected, and chosen by the people and their majority vote, even if part of that was simply voting for the mayor who placed them on the council. This is in stark contrast to a province of the Turamzzyrian Empire, where rule is generally hereditary and sanctioned by the Church of Koar- your average commoner in the County of Wherever does not vote for the next Count of Wherever, however your average townsperson in Wehnimer's Landing does, in fact, vote for its next mayor and by extension the council. Hence responsibility.

A real world example of this is whenever my state governor does something stupid. I may not have voted for him, but he represents me to the rest of the nation, so when they send in the National Guard to quell an uprising of angry businessmen throwing scalding hot lattes at people, all I can do is facepalm and accept the fact that my delicious, sweet, loamy espresso has now been outlawed because dudes with more money than me wanted more, even more, money regardless of the consequences.

3) Sanctuary for many of the people rumored to be involved in the assassination of Earl Kestrel

-The responsible parties came into city limits and proudly displayed the items they had stripped from Earl Berniah Kestrel's dead body. They also showed captured blueprints of an imperial embassy ( -__- ). Highly witnessed, especially by respected members of various imperial organizations.

They were then, resistance to it quickly eroded, welcomed back with open arms, and allowed to roam freely and unchecked. Couple dudes were hanged, but the acting Shadow Abomination of Unliving Horror apologized to them and the rest of the banished afterward- just as well, Stephos DeArchon subsequently pardoned them before fleecing his get-away. Lady Alendrial DeArchon, Stephos's wife and co-conspirator, was delivered to Icemule Trace.

4) The site of the mysterious death of Grand Magister Tayeros

-Same as above. As much as certain characters will play it off as 'oh i don't know how it happened heuheuhruhrrr,' first: it was witnessed, second, it was gloated about repeatedly, third it is another direct act of aggression within Wehnimer's Landing against a lawful faction seeking answers about heinous crimes.

5) Home to Walkar who used a shapeshifter to try to secretly control Talador, and then turned into an abomination that marched on imperial territories

-The townspeople and player characters voted for him, hence responsibility. Any attempts to remove him from office and deliver him to justice were met with incredibly fierce, incredibly vocal resistance and threats of incredible violence. The good and rational among the Landing's citizenry lost that one, and given the democratic nature of the town, unfortunately everyone bears the responsibility of their elected official.

If people listened to it and just allowed it to happen, that's also responsibility via complacency. Complicit with a crime as it were.

6) Housed/houses individuals said to have taken blood oaths to the imperial enemy Elithain Cross and conduct a ritual to summon demonic chimera to lay waste to portions of the Empire

-Wagons were circled and they were allowed to roam freely and unchecked- by this time there was no real acting government, so responsibility fell on the shoulders of the adventuring citizens and townspeople to correct this. They did not.

7) HQ of the criminal organization known as the Brotherhood of Rooks who have killed/wounded Vornanvian soldiers, damaged imperial ships, aided in arming krolvin, led by Drangell the wanted criminal, were responsible for the murder of a Taladorian noble's daughter, and robbed from the banks/shops of Solhaven.

-Very few have taken any steps to remove them. Fewer (see: none) have been successful. In fact, they were welcomed repeatedly to defend against lawful factions seeking to right wrongs, and empowered by local adventuring citizens to do really bad stuff. Their efforts thus far..: extorted local businesses, pillaged local businesses, murdered citizens, damaged swaths of property, helped arm the very krolvin that right up to the last battle attacked the town and killed its dudes, kind of kept trying to pick a fight with the Turamzzyrian Empire by striking out into imperial lands on several occasions to do bad stuff, and then stuffed a sixteen year old girl in the frige.

The only people who tried to stop them were ostracized and on several occasions attacked. They've beleaguered and assailed and victimized the Landing for the better part of three years now. They also bro'd it up with Lich King Duke of Lich's Landing A Number One Barnom Sho'Nuff Slim for a bit.

8) Still housing a forest of evil black trees

-Citizens of the Landing, townsperson and adventurer alike, took part in the ritual to create them. Many have signed their names into the trees themselves as living evidence of their support and fostering and feeding of the blood drinking horror trees.

9) Positoned near Melgorehn's Reach which has now drawn the attention of many curious people

-This one, actually, is a freebie- it's the center square of the Landing's bingo card! The only people directly responsible for the Reach are the people who made it, who are long, long gone. However, that doesn't discount the fact that while previously considered simply a curiosity, now it is recognized as a site of power that can be used to great effect either benevolently or malevolently.

---

Arguing it ICly, that makes for sehr interessant RP, but these be the facts OOCly, presented not in a HAHA U LOSE way but in a 'this happened' way (with as little eyepoking as possibru). If there's interest, I can also do my best later onski to sum up the gnarly stuff the imperial side of the story did as well (which is probably fairly equal in number, but I don't believe equal in squickiness).

-james, bristenn's player

---

You think to yourself, "FFF-"

A giant white bunny hurls a powerful lightning bolt at you!

You evade the bolt by a hair!

I am going to call this one a two-fer, and reply to both previous posts!

Firstly, the use of the words 'lawful faction' completely do not apply to Wehnimer's Landing. The only law the Imperials were justly investigating was it's own, which has no rule or bearing over the territory mentioned.

The Inquisitor was a guest, even though he refused to accept that fact, and over used his guest card. When it was revoked, a couple of his knights paid the price for his dallying around. No pun intended, but seems he paid his own price while dallying as well.

Tayeros was equally out of his element, presented himself as a man of position to some, and learned at the crucial moment how mistaken he was.

I won't argue that the Empire does not have plenty of good reasons to look north with an eye of concern, but they should also understand the analogy of why rich people do not walk through central park flaunting their diamonds. The Landing is not a place for the weak, light hearted, and under prepared. Hell, even the kids will mug you and rob you blind here. There are certainly some moral and social standards, but they are not enforced by the Empire, The Elven Nations, nor any Giant, Halfing, or Dwarven Clans. They are enforced by the duly elected officials, their representatives, and by extension, it's people.


To the population estimates, bear in mind that there are booming Elven cities that we have never lain contemporary eyes upon, that have been around for over 20 thousand years. Illistim, which we can traverse daily, is easily a city of over a million elves.


- This space is left blank intentionally. -

>The Inquisitor was a guest, even though he refused to accept that fact, and over used his guest card. When it was revoked, a couple of his knights paid the price for his dallying around. No pun intended, but seems he paid his own price while dallying as well.

>Tayeros was equally out of his element, presented himself as a man of position to some, and learned at the crucial moment how mistaken he was.

Unfortunately though, both of those were sort of cases of the Landing digging itself deeper in Imperial eyes. Yeah... neither Rinhale nor Tayeros were pleasant guys, but both of them were sent north to investigate really serious crimes (selling weapons to the Krolvin, killing Berniah Kestrel). From the Imperial POV, it adds to the reputation of the Landing harboring major criminals. Not only to they offer sanctuary, they'll even kill to protect them.


Signed,
Raelee and her Strings

>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."

I think this is where the conflict-loving, aggressive Lylia and the conflict-averse, live-and-let-live Lauren diverge. I (the affable player, not the irascible Faendryl) agree that from a narrative standpoint, it's Bad to harbor criminals or kill Earls or feed the black trees, but from the standpoint of wanting my fellow players to continue to enjoy the game, I'm not really sure the characters who did these things can be made to face any real consequences. The trees, Cross, the Rooks, the fight against Talador, all the stuff the Empire has against the Landing -- it's all a product of players wanting (and rightly so) to carve out niches for themselves. I talked to some of them who expressly chose those darker paths because they felt their characters needed a little gravitas or because they wanted to see what things were like from the other side of the fence. Whatever their reasons, someone's always going to want to play the bad guy or worship a dark god or at the very least wear a lot of black and look sullen, and there has to be room for that too.

I always play as the hero the first time through a solo RPG, but my second trip is usually villainous. I totally get why players would choose that way, and I've had great fun seeing some ordinarily shiny hero types get a little tarnish on 'em.

I don't really feel like having my character squeezed into bad-guy territory because some players joined Althedeus' posse any more than I want her to be forced into good-guy status because she fought for Mestanir and gave orphans candy. In fact, I don't think we're really supposed to have it all our way in the narrative sense with this -- not on either side, assuming there will soon be sides once again. While from an IC perspective, Sir Bristenn and Lady Lylia disagree emphatically on how much responsibility the citizenry of the Landing has for insults against the Empire (or vice-versa), we as players are able to look at the bigger picture and say, "Ooh, that's a good hook for a story" and build on that organically instead of trying to show in an OOC way why one side is empirically (ha, see what I did there?) right and the other is unequivocally wrong. The way I see it, both sides are fairly equal in their general nastiness to one another, albeit in different ways (and after reading what happened to the Marlu worshippers in Kenstrom's little glimpses of Imperial nastiness, I'd say there's some pretty squicky stuff yet to be revealed IC).

I guess what I'm saying is that if the actions of the players who fed the trees or participated in the Earl's GM-scripted death or signed up to fly the unfriendly skies in Cross' airship are going to plunge the Landing into a new conflict, I don't know if I'm ready for it yet. I'm not sure if you're suggesting that because some players chose to have their characters snuggle up with shadows or commit crimes against the Empire, the whole Landing deserves to be annexed or subjugated by an entity that's notoriously unfriendly to many characters' races and professions. I can definitely get why Bristenn would feel that way, but do you see it that way as a player? It's a great narrative hook for generating conflict, to be sure. We're not even certain there's going to be any significant conflict, and we're already writing marathon posts about it!

You bring up a good real-life parallel. I live in Louisiana; I face-palm a lot about what my state's legislators do, and whenever I have to go north of Baton Rouge, I feel as though I'm in a parallel universe. Despite that, I love living here and wouldn't take kindly to Texas coming in and governing for us no matter how much I may dislike some of what happens -- especially when I suspect the good folks of the Lone Star State would sell the Saints to Salt Lake City and "clean up" Mardi Gras. I live here because I like nasty Mardi Gras and Saints games on Sundays and streetcar rides. That doesn't mean I don't like Texas; it's a great state, and the people there were wonderful to us when we visited. I just don't want to live there. As lousy as my state is in a lot of ways, it's also like nowhere else in the world. I wouldn't have half as much fun anywhere else.

>If this is in fact the truth the next steps the Empire takes will be to place a puppet as mayor (I seriously doubt the Empire will tolerate an orc as mayor), censorship of the citizenry of the landing (to include the right to assemble), assuming control or disbanding of all militias (already done to the Gryphons), placing guards at key points in the landing (guard towers, bank, constabulary, Lorminstra's Temple, town center, Moot Hall, etc) and the rounding up of all suspected dissidents and other assorted "troublemakers". I would also expect to soon see Imperial Drakes and Magisters arrive, their excuse for being there will of course be all about Mel's Reach and the potential dangers it poses to the "locals".<


Someone anxious? :-)


Cryheart