Previous
CRYHEART
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/14/2015 10:18 PM CST
>I suppose the other side of the coin is... a lot of characters have decided that the Empire showing up is the end of their life as they know it. But all of Earl Jovery's character in the past indicates he's not a cruel man, or a harsh man, but generally a fair man who historically wants to help the Landing. (And I mean actual help, not "help"). A lot of the things people are afraid of are things he very well may not do at all. I suppose it might be another one of those shades of grey thing. The words "Empire" brings forth certain ideas, but the ideas are not often reflective of reality. However, it's a lot like the US - it's a huge, huge place... with a wide variety of cultural attitudes and belief.<
I agree Raelee. Without actual prior proof or actual experience to indicate that the Landing is about to become slaves to the Empire, folks expect the worse. We just need to accept that we are a Protectorate for the time being.
Cryheart
COYOTERRE
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/14/2015 10:33 PM CST
A few things, after reading all the clever responses.
I still do not think that I understand what a "protectorate" is. I DO understand why the Empire takes interest in the Landing (I'll address in a moment).
I think I understand the authority that Jovery took with the Silver Gryphons - it sounded like a demotion to me. "Striking from the record of the Sun Throne" seems to me that the organization no longer is recognized by the Empire - and must now prove themselves to Jovery (via Thadston) to "right" their "wrongs". That part seems independent of the authority over the Landing. That organization, while based in the Landing, and bearing some interest in the Landing (as citizens and residents thereof), has pledged fealty to the Empire (if I recall the Knighting ceremony (2003, OMG?) correctly).
I contrast that organization with LDI or Drakes Vanguard or even ye ole Northern Fury, whose (if I understand that correctly) first loyalty and oaths and commitments were to the towns they were headquartered in (Landing, Icemule) and then the rest of Elanthia, with/without any due respect to other governing states (EN, Empire, etc), depending on circumstances.
Likewise, with the Dae'Randir, whose (originally, back in my heyday) first loyalty was to tenets of Onar and each other, and then secondarily to the Landing, and to arguably other cities where Onarians could reside, and not particularly concerned with other legal/political entities. That has changed, somewhat, over the years, as leadership in the organization has shifted and evolved (this is what shadows do).
Now, as far as sleights to the Empire, of which I have some close information.
Many of the assumptions are correct in Bristenn's OOC post. Some are not, of which obviously the PTB are aware of the facts versus the appearances of some things. But that is the fun of RP'ing it out.
From Turinrond's perspective:
I do think that you will find that the Cosima situation did not turn out as planned, ultimately. However, the goal of subduing Davard and the Taladorians was achieved. Her death was unnecessary and unfortunate. Insert everyone's "I told you so." where Drangell is concerned.
Joining Cross. This is something that I do hope gets addressed. I do not know if there will be a trial. That is why I'm particularly interested in the meaning of the term "protectorate". What are my rights as a citizen of the Landing, and not particularly loyal to the Empire? Can Thadston scoop me up and do whatever to me (as Tayeros did), or is there some procedure that must be followed since we are not actually part of the Empire?
Assassination of the Chastonian Earl Kestrel. There are certainly no witnesses to this, but yes, there was some extenuating circumstances and loud proclamations afterwards, which will no doubt be investigated further (I'm guessing). Same as above, what are a citizen's rights in this matter? Guilty or not guilty, is not the point. What are the rights of the citizen in facing consequences for such a crime?
Tayeros. This is the one where lessons were learned from previous events and NO ONE has bragged or spoken about the circumstances regarding his death (that I am aware of). What WAS seen, was one person rescuing Commander Nysina from Tayeros' captivity - AFTER - Tayeros was already dead (obviously, otherwise, she would not have been released, I don't think). The ONLY piece of evidence was the body itself (which I am certain showed no type of wounds from physical combat, i.e., he was not stabbed or physically traumatized to death)(that information, however, seems unlikely to have been revealed just yet, but this is all OOC, right?) - and - a missive found on his body (which Raelee passed to Pylasar who passed it to Bekke - which was not where that note was supposed to end up, OMG).
Now when the accusations flew towards that one person found at the scene of the crime, that one person did not care to dispute the assumptions made. This makes this more intriguing, but Turinrond has publically refuted that person's involvement in Tayeros' death, and has clearly stated that person was there to get Nysina to safety. Our feelings were that she had been tortured enough by Tayeros, and the Dae'Randir established a diplomatic understanding with the Shades, at least until their former commander showed up (and summarily had his brain disrupted). The diplomatic understanding is still there, the need for it is not currently an issue. That may well change, and their aid may well be needed in dealing with future ... problems. At which point, you'll be glad that the one person was there and getting the Commander out of Tayeros' holding cell.
*
When weighing crimes and punishments, while I'm not particularly interested for myself, I do think there's some folks who genuinely tried to redeem themselves for their poor/mistaken/oopsie choices and who were very diligent in participating and cooperating towards the resolution of Althedeus, Cross' army, other things. I know I was on the front lines in Mestanir. I know that I was there when Cross was killed, and helped (kinda, I mean Madelyne did the deed, really, but the intention was there!). I faced down some of the chimeras that I helped create - in fact, I killed more than I created. So, are those things taken into consideration when the time comes for sentencing? Because, you know, that's a slippery slope: If that's not taken into consideration, then truly, half the town is responsible for Grishom Stone's release from Winter Manor, which was somewhat necessary for him to get to the freedom he has now. Or, do we glaze over that part, and only look at the handful of folks who inadvertently helped him while he was a prisoner in the Brass Tower?
Intentionally, I imagine, in the brilliant sort of web that Kenstrom has woven, there ain't a soul who hasn't made some poor choice at some point. Some of those things may be excusable, permissable, understandable. Does the Empire get to cherry pick which crimes and which purported criminals get to be punished, or do they intend to do a full and thorough cleansing of all the inexcusable actions, starting with Gryphons disobedience of a direct order?
*
I do think it boils down to what are citizen rights within this thing called a "protectorate"?
For what it's worth, I am NOT disputing that certain events and circumstances drew the Empire's eye to the Landing. That was most certainly inevitable. I'd even argue that it was intentional, on some levels. Like the Tayeros missive, along the lines of "now that I have your attention, there's a few matters we'd like to sit down and address".
I'm also well aware that's not a completely realistic nor sensible character point of view, but it's the one I'm operating on, all the same.
Respectfully,
~ Bill, Coyote.
The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination.
~ Voltaire
I still do not think that I understand what a "protectorate" is. I DO understand why the Empire takes interest in the Landing (I'll address in a moment).
I think I understand the authority that Jovery took with the Silver Gryphons - it sounded like a demotion to me. "Striking from the record of the Sun Throne" seems to me that the organization no longer is recognized by the Empire - and must now prove themselves to Jovery (via Thadston) to "right" their "wrongs". That part seems independent of the authority over the Landing. That organization, while based in the Landing, and bearing some interest in the Landing (as citizens and residents thereof), has pledged fealty to the Empire (if I recall the Knighting ceremony (2003, OMG?) correctly).
I contrast that organization with LDI or Drakes Vanguard or even ye ole Northern Fury, whose (if I understand that correctly) first loyalty and oaths and commitments were to the towns they were headquartered in (Landing, Icemule) and then the rest of Elanthia, with/without any due respect to other governing states (EN, Empire, etc), depending on circumstances.
Likewise, with the Dae'Randir, whose (originally, back in my heyday) first loyalty was to tenets of Onar and each other, and then secondarily to the Landing, and to arguably other cities where Onarians could reside, and not particularly concerned with other legal/political entities. That has changed, somewhat, over the years, as leadership in the organization has shifted and evolved (this is what shadows do).
Now, as far as sleights to the Empire, of which I have some close information.
Many of the assumptions are correct in Bristenn's OOC post. Some are not, of which obviously the PTB are aware of the facts versus the appearances of some things. But that is the fun of RP'ing it out.
From Turinrond's perspective:
I do think that you will find that the Cosima situation did not turn out as planned, ultimately. However, the goal of subduing Davard and the Taladorians was achieved. Her death was unnecessary and unfortunate. Insert everyone's "I told you so." where Drangell is concerned.
Joining Cross. This is something that I do hope gets addressed. I do not know if there will be a trial. That is why I'm particularly interested in the meaning of the term "protectorate". What are my rights as a citizen of the Landing, and not particularly loyal to the Empire? Can Thadston scoop me up and do whatever to me (as Tayeros did), or is there some procedure that must be followed since we are not actually part of the Empire?
Assassination of the Chastonian Earl Kestrel. There are certainly no witnesses to this, but yes, there was some extenuating circumstances and loud proclamations afterwards, which will no doubt be investigated further (I'm guessing). Same as above, what are a citizen's rights in this matter? Guilty or not guilty, is not the point. What are the rights of the citizen in facing consequences for such a crime?
Tayeros. This is the one where lessons were learned from previous events and NO ONE has bragged or spoken about the circumstances regarding his death (that I am aware of). What WAS seen, was one person rescuing Commander Nysina from Tayeros' captivity - AFTER - Tayeros was already dead (obviously, otherwise, she would not have been released, I don't think). The ONLY piece of evidence was the body itself (which I am certain showed no type of wounds from physical combat, i.e., he was not stabbed or physically traumatized to death)(that information, however, seems unlikely to have been revealed just yet, but this is all OOC, right?) - and - a missive found on his body (which Raelee passed to Pylasar who passed it to Bekke - which was not where that note was supposed to end up, OMG).
Now when the accusations flew towards that one person found at the scene of the crime, that one person did not care to dispute the assumptions made. This makes this more intriguing, but Turinrond has publically refuted that person's involvement in Tayeros' death, and has clearly stated that person was there to get Nysina to safety. Our feelings were that she had been tortured enough by Tayeros, and the Dae'Randir established a diplomatic understanding with the Shades, at least until their former commander showed up (and summarily had his brain disrupted). The diplomatic understanding is still there, the need for it is not currently an issue. That may well change, and their aid may well be needed in dealing with future ... problems. At which point, you'll be glad that the one person was there and getting the Commander out of Tayeros' holding cell.
*
When weighing crimes and punishments, while I'm not particularly interested for myself, I do think there's some folks who genuinely tried to redeem themselves for their poor/mistaken/oopsie choices and who were very diligent in participating and cooperating towards the resolution of Althedeus, Cross' army, other things. I know I was on the front lines in Mestanir. I know that I was there when Cross was killed, and helped (kinda, I mean Madelyne did the deed, really, but the intention was there!). I faced down some of the chimeras that I helped create - in fact, I killed more than I created. So, are those things taken into consideration when the time comes for sentencing? Because, you know, that's a slippery slope: If that's not taken into consideration, then truly, half the town is responsible for Grishom Stone's release from Winter Manor, which was somewhat necessary for him to get to the freedom he has now. Or, do we glaze over that part, and only look at the handful of folks who inadvertently helped him while he was a prisoner in the Brass Tower?
Intentionally, I imagine, in the brilliant sort of web that Kenstrom has woven, there ain't a soul who hasn't made some poor choice at some point. Some of those things may be excusable, permissable, understandable. Does the Empire get to cherry pick which crimes and which purported criminals get to be punished, or do they intend to do a full and thorough cleansing of all the inexcusable actions, starting with Gryphons disobedience of a direct order?
*
I do think it boils down to what are citizen rights within this thing called a "protectorate"?
For what it's worth, I am NOT disputing that certain events and circumstances drew the Empire's eye to the Landing. That was most certainly inevitable. I'd even argue that it was intentional, on some levels. Like the Tayeros missive, along the lines of "now that I have your attention, there's a few matters we'd like to sit down and address".
I'm also well aware that's not a completely realistic nor sensible character point of view, but it's the one I'm operating on, all the same.
Respectfully,
~ Bill, Coyote.
The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination.
~ Voltaire
JARHEAD
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/14/2015 10:38 PM CST
<The conflict might shape up to be fear of what the Empire MIGHT do versus the reality of what the Empire is really trying to do.
Fear is a very dangerous thing, it changes a persons perspective on just about everything, and yes, Radeek fears the Empire, but only their ability to squash freedom.
Rad's perspective on all this is based mostly on past Empire actions with a healthy dose of Tehir added in for good measure. It's sort of a no-win situation for him. If he's wrong and the Empire really is only trying to be all buddy buddy he'll take some heat (not the first time, won't be the last, and it keeps him warm on cold winter nights) and if he's right the Landing's in for big-time trouble....again.
Rad doesn't like knights, at all. Until CiS, in particular the war with Talador, Rad despised all knights, they were good for only one thing...targets. However, it did not escape his notice that the Gryphons disobeyed their orders to help protect the town and it's people. Some characters even noticed a change in Rad's attitude towards that particular group of knights and their associates after that, and though he probably will never call any of them "friend" he now has a healthy amount of respect for them, especially Cryheart... all because they did what was right for their charges and not their liege-lords.
The fact that Thadston basically embarrassed the Gryphons in front of everyone made Rad more angry than anything else. The Empire stepped in and took a group of people that fought and bled right beside Radeek and told them they were wrong for doing so, and then took them over. Rad thought, right then and there, that if the Empire was willing to do that to their own then surely they'll do it to the rest of us, and he still thinks they will, only this time they won't waste time on being polite.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
Fear is a very dangerous thing, it changes a persons perspective on just about everything, and yes, Radeek fears the Empire, but only their ability to squash freedom.
Rad's perspective on all this is based mostly on past Empire actions with a healthy dose of Tehir added in for good measure. It's sort of a no-win situation for him. If he's wrong and the Empire really is only trying to be all buddy buddy he'll take some heat (not the first time, won't be the last, and it keeps him warm on cold winter nights) and if he's right the Landing's in for big-time trouble....again.
Rad doesn't like knights, at all. Until CiS, in particular the war with Talador, Rad despised all knights, they were good for only one thing...targets. However, it did not escape his notice that the Gryphons disobeyed their orders to help protect the town and it's people. Some characters even noticed a change in Rad's attitude towards that particular group of knights and their associates after that, and though he probably will never call any of them "friend" he now has a healthy amount of respect for them, especially Cryheart... all because they did what was right for their charges and not their liege-lords.
The fact that Thadston basically embarrassed the Gryphons in front of everyone made Rad more angry than anything else. The Empire stepped in and took a group of people that fought and bled right beside Radeek and told them they were wrong for doing so, and then took them over. Rad thought, right then and there, that if the Empire was willing to do that to their own then surely they'll do it to the rest of us, and he still thinks they will, only this time they won't waste time on being polite.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
JARHEAD
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/14/2015 10:44 PM CST
<Someone anxious? :-)
<Cryheart
Yep...someone, either Metadi or Geijon, I can't remember which, had a vision from the fortuneteller that showed Radeek in chains and being escorted through the Sea of Fire. Chains? In my own homeland? How revolting and embarrassing.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
<Cryheart
Yep...someone, either Metadi or Geijon, I can't remember which, had a vision from the fortuneteller that showed Radeek in chains and being escorted through the Sea of Fire. Chains? In my own homeland? How revolting and embarrassing.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
SCRAPPERK
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/14/2015 10:49 PM CST
When I attempt to correlate Protectorate to Wehnimer's Landing, what I come up with is more of a message to any party outside of the Landing, that this is our turf, under our protection. Mess with it and we will respond. Kind of like Puerto Rico or Guam.
While the Empire certainly has not lived up to this claim until very recently, I understand this to be the extent of the power, or authority this statement offers.
Let's say for instance, you assassinated the King of Ta'Vaalor, and you escape to Wehnimer's Landing. The Vaalor elves could come and take you home, if the Empire were inclined to interfere, and make a national incident of it, they could assert that you are within their protectorate and the elves have no claim to you.
With that comes a price, and it is equally as ambiguous. If the Empire decided not to get involved with the afore mentioned scenario, then Vaalor elves would take you and there is not much more than complain that could be done.
If you decide to assassinate an Emperor, and make your escape to The Landing, the Empire can certainly come and scoop you up for justice. The down side to that is that there is no nation or Empire to intercede on your behalf, only the local politicians, who, in all honesty, are not going to go to war for you, risk trade sanctions or embargoes, or blocked ports for you.
Being a protectorate can be a great thing, if your protector actually does that. Historically they just have not stepped up, and completely IC, it is not very hard to see why people would be naturally wary of a sudden increased presence and the use of terminology that really has not meant much of anything in the past.
- This space is left blank intentionally. -
FIREPHOENIX
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/14/2015 10:54 PM CST
I think in the case of Tayeros and Rinhale it's kind of a "Meh.." moment. Rinhale was a bit of a laughing stock within the boundaries of the Empire and that's why he seemingly fell in with crazy Chaston. In respect to the murder of Earl Kestrel I think that would be team seal 6 type stuff as Wehnimer's Landing isn't the Empire, but those people assumed guilty could be taken then arrested within the boundaries of the Empire and tried in the appropriate location.
The Order of the Silver Gryphon as an organization is first and foremost dedicated to the Landing. The original knights were meant as a political buffer, but were somewhat hedge knights in that they didn't swear fealty. In 2003 when Knight-Errant of the Empire was introduced to caused some problems because of the duality of service both to the Empire and our Order, but at no time has the Order changed it's dedication or pledged fealty to the Empire. That is something often inferred because knight-errant's of the Empire make up some of it's membership. This occasional conflict of interests tends to be the public/private conundrum our PCs face because we have to say/do public things and do/ask/sneak private things and the Earl or Baron Malwind have to kind of do the same things sometimes.
It's a rather odd misconception that always seems to creep up, but it's pretty clear in our motto.
“ To Defend Our Town and The People Who Live Within It.
To Protect Those Who Cannot Protect Themselves.
To Aid Those Who Are In Need, If Their Cause Is Just.
To Serve With Honor, By Example And By Deed. ”
Our town is Wehnimer's Landing. The Order itself only exists within those confines. The dichotomy that Knights face who happen to be members of our Order is a different deal that Sir Brinn has spoken on at length on multiple occasions.
-J of G
The Order of the Silver Gryphon as an organization is first and foremost dedicated to the Landing. The original knights were meant as a political buffer, but were somewhat hedge knights in that they didn't swear fealty. In 2003 when Knight-Errant of the Empire was introduced to caused some problems because of the duality of service both to the Empire and our Order, but at no time has the Order changed it's dedication or pledged fealty to the Empire. That is something often inferred because knight-errant's of the Empire make up some of it's membership. This occasional conflict of interests tends to be the public/private conundrum our PCs face because we have to say/do public things and do/ask/sneak private things and the Earl or Baron Malwind have to kind of do the same things sometimes.
It's a rather odd misconception that always seems to creep up, but it's pretty clear in our motto.
“ To Defend Our Town and The People Who Live Within It.
To Protect Those Who Cannot Protect Themselves.
To Aid Those Who Are In Need, If Their Cause Is Just.
To Serve With Honor, By Example And By Deed. ”
Our town is Wehnimer's Landing. The Order itself only exists within those confines. The dichotomy that Knights face who happen to be members of our Order is a different deal that Sir Brinn has spoken on at length on multiple occasions.
-J of G
UBERWENCH
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/14/2015 10:58 PM CST
I think we're kind of expected to feel some tension, aren't we? It's not just something silly players are doing to be silly when one GM-run character comes in and makes announcements while another has to be restrained by guards from angrily giving him a piece of her mind and promising she'd let orphans kick him in the shins to drive him out of town. Again, that's just my observation as a player; if the powers-that-be wanted the assembled crowd to be all, "Oh. 'Kay, Sir Thadston, have a nice time in the Landing," then A) the main guy probably wouldn't have hidden blueprints from view earlier and come in all brusque and peremptory to deliver his pronouncements, and B) another GM-run character probably wouldn't have been there to help stir up those anxieties. Oh, and then there's C), all the ugly stuff with the blood marble and the dead worshippers, but that's something we players know and characters don't (yet).
Part of the fun is guessing where storylines might go, but the scene last night seemed designed to stir unease. That's not a bad thing; unease and friction create much more interesting fiction than happy-go-lucky hug-it-out stuff. I'm pretty sure the GMs want to give us those interesting hooks on which to hang our roleplaying, so those of us who are giving Thadston the fish-eye are not so much being paranoid as walking down the path Kenstrom, Xayle and company have helpfully strewn with streamers and arrow-shaped confetti to point the way. :)
>I didn't actually give any sort of opinion in any direction, IC or OOC. I just kind'a OOCly presented le facts behind the Landing being linked with the aforementioned events.
I guess I was just curious as to how much of your view of these facts came from the player and how much from the character. Technically, sure, it's a fact that most characters did little about the people who bragged about killing that Earl, but as players, we know our hands are kind of tied there. Level ninety-ish sorceresses who are outnumbered by post-cap characters who just returned from a GM-backed special event don't fare well if they get too vehement in their opposition, and making a citizen's arrest probably wouldn't have gone over too well. We all face some OOC limitations on our IC actions, especially when those actions could infringe on another player's RP choices. I can yell at 'em to leave town, but my character can't actually turn over the miscreants to the proper authorities.
On the other hand, I do still have that deputy star in Lylia's locker from a number of years ago. Hah, I don't even know if that's still A Thing in GSIV. Maybe I'll pull it out and swagger around like Veronica at the end of "Heathers" and proclaim that there's a new sheriff in town. (Got to get a big red scrunchie to add verisimilitude, though.)
FIREPHOENIX
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/14/2015 11:16 PM CST
| P.S. |
| https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Wehnimer%27s_Landing |
| Looks like the history of the Landing needs a couple additions. :D |
| GM Scribes |
I win? I mean I'm on it!
Brought to you by Tables by James!
-J of G
CRYHEART
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/14/2015 11:25 PM CST
>Yep...someone, either Metadi or Geijon, I can't remember which, had a vision from the fortuneteller that showed Radeek in chains and being escorted through the Sea of Fire. Chains? In my own homeland? How revolting and embarrassing.<
Hmmm, I see your point!
Cryheart
CAMPBELLS
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 02:41 AM CST
<<Likewise, with the Dae'Randir, whose (originally, back in my heyday) first loyalty was to tenets of Onar and each other, and then secondarily to the Landing, and to arguably other cities where Onarians could reside, and not particularly concerned with other legal/political entities. That has changed, somewhat, over the years, as leadership in the organization has shifted and evolved (this is what shadows do).>>
The absence of many of the old members of the Dae'randir has certainly brought about a lot of changes. Your imprisonment coupled with Ondreian's long absence was nearly the death nell of the group. Almost all of the older members left Elanthia and the Dae'randir was disbanded for a time. Were it not for Lyllenyn's considerable efforts the Dae'randir would no longer exist. The absence of so many of the old guard caused alot of the identity of the Dae'randir to be lost and that is unfortunate. Certainly our leadership styles are very different with mine being much more Laissez-faire and at the same time more aggressive or militant I believe you once characterized it.
<<I do think that you will find that the Cosima situation did not turn out as planned, ultimately. However, the goal of subduing Davard and the Taladorians was achieved. Her death was unnecessary and unfortunate. Insert everyone's "I told you so." where Drangell is concerned.>>
In fairness to you it was always your opinion that you could keep Cosima safe and you were genuinely taken aback by her brutal execution. I thought that there would be one of two outcomes. Either Davard would give in and withdraw, or Cosima would die and he would be broken. Her death did ultimately save many others. A better outcome would have been for Davard to withdraw.
As far as the "I told you so" where Dragnell is concerned. There is an interesting story where it concerns Dragnell that is conveniently forgotten now. But I can tell you that when Dragnell and I first met to discuss the abduction he "remembered" it very well. When Zyndur led the landing defenders in a raid into the Rook's lair it was Lyllenyn of the Dae'randir who separated from the main group, and used stealth to navigate through the lair. She searched and discovered the secret entrance of Dragnell's hiding place. She then drew her dagger and challenged Drangell and Dragnell surrendered to her. She then alerted the main group to the location where she captured Dragnell single handedly. It was the the Landing defenders that inteceded with Walker on Dragnell's behalf that he should not be killed on the grounds that he might be useful in the future. Indeed, I found him very useful in the defense of the Landing against Taladorian invading force.
<<Tayeros. This is the one where lessons were learned from previous events and NO ONE has bragged or spoken about the circumstances regarding his death (that I am aware of). What WAS seen, was one person rescuing Commander Nysina from Tayeros' captivity - AFTER - Tayeros was already dead (obviously, otherwise, she would not have been released, I don't think). The ONLY piece of evidence was the body itself (which I am certain showed no type of wounds from physical combat, i.e., he was not stabbed or physically traumatized to death)(that information, however, seems unlikely to have been revealed just yet, but this is all OOC, right?) - and - a missive found on his body (which Raelee passed to Pylasar who passed it to Bekke - which was not where that note was supposed to end up, OMG).>>
I nearly got away clean. Had I been a second or two quicker no one would have know I had ever been there. I was probably a split second away from being cast on.
<<Now when the accusations flew towards that one person found at the scene of the crime, that one person did not care to dispute the assumptions made. This makes this more intriguing, but Turinrond has publically refuted that person's involvement in Tayeros' death, and has clearly stated that person was there to get Nysina to safety. Our feelings were that she had been tortured enough by Tayeros, and the Dae'Randir established a diplomatic understanding with the Shades, at least until their former commander showed up (and summarily had his brain disrupted). The diplomatic understanding is still there, the need for it is not currently an issue. That may well change, and their aid may well be needed in dealing with future ... problems. At which point, you'll be glad that the one person was there and getting the Commander out of Tayeros' holding cell. >>
Do I detect a rebuke? :) You know as well as I that there was no point in denying anything as it would not have been accepted. Again, had I been two seconds quicker no one would have ever known I was there at all which would have been the preferable outcome.
Wolfloner
Sentinel of the Dae'randir
The absence of many of the old members of the Dae'randir has certainly brought about a lot of changes. Your imprisonment coupled with Ondreian's long absence was nearly the death nell of the group. Almost all of the older members left Elanthia and the Dae'randir was disbanded for a time. Were it not for Lyllenyn's considerable efforts the Dae'randir would no longer exist. The absence of so many of the old guard caused alot of the identity of the Dae'randir to be lost and that is unfortunate. Certainly our leadership styles are very different with mine being much more Laissez-faire and at the same time more aggressive or militant I believe you once characterized it.
<<I do think that you will find that the Cosima situation did not turn out as planned, ultimately. However, the goal of subduing Davard and the Taladorians was achieved. Her death was unnecessary and unfortunate. Insert everyone's "I told you so." where Drangell is concerned.>>
In fairness to you it was always your opinion that you could keep Cosima safe and you were genuinely taken aback by her brutal execution. I thought that there would be one of two outcomes. Either Davard would give in and withdraw, or Cosima would die and he would be broken. Her death did ultimately save many others. A better outcome would have been for Davard to withdraw.
As far as the "I told you so" where Dragnell is concerned. There is an interesting story where it concerns Dragnell that is conveniently forgotten now. But I can tell you that when Dragnell and I first met to discuss the abduction he "remembered" it very well. When Zyndur led the landing defenders in a raid into the Rook's lair it was Lyllenyn of the Dae'randir who separated from the main group, and used stealth to navigate through the lair. She searched and discovered the secret entrance of Dragnell's hiding place. She then drew her dagger and challenged Drangell and Dragnell surrendered to her. She then alerted the main group to the location where she captured Dragnell single handedly. It was the the Landing defenders that inteceded with Walker on Dragnell's behalf that he should not be killed on the grounds that he might be useful in the future. Indeed, I found him very useful in the defense of the Landing against Taladorian invading force.
<<Tayeros. This is the one where lessons were learned from previous events and NO ONE has bragged or spoken about the circumstances regarding his death (that I am aware of). What WAS seen, was one person rescuing Commander Nysina from Tayeros' captivity - AFTER - Tayeros was already dead (obviously, otherwise, she would not have been released, I don't think). The ONLY piece of evidence was the body itself (which I am certain showed no type of wounds from physical combat, i.e., he was not stabbed or physically traumatized to death)(that information, however, seems unlikely to have been revealed just yet, but this is all OOC, right?) - and - a missive found on his body (which Raelee passed to Pylasar who passed it to Bekke - which was not where that note was supposed to end up, OMG).>>
I nearly got away clean. Had I been a second or two quicker no one would have know I had ever been there. I was probably a split second away from being cast on.
<<Now when the accusations flew towards that one person found at the scene of the crime, that one person did not care to dispute the assumptions made. This makes this more intriguing, but Turinrond has publically refuted that person's involvement in Tayeros' death, and has clearly stated that person was there to get Nysina to safety. Our feelings were that she had been tortured enough by Tayeros, and the Dae'Randir established a diplomatic understanding with the Shades, at least until their former commander showed up (and summarily had his brain disrupted). The diplomatic understanding is still there, the need for it is not currently an issue. That may well change, and their aid may well be needed in dealing with future ... problems. At which point, you'll be glad that the one person was there and getting the Commander out of Tayeros' holding cell. >>
Do I detect a rebuke? :) You know as well as I that there was no point in denying anything as it would not have been accepted. Again, had I been two seconds quicker no one would have ever known I was there at all which would have been the preferable outcome.
Wolfloner
Sentinel of the Dae'randir
GS4-SCRIBES
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 08:45 AM CST
<<I win? I mean I'm on it!
Hurray!
::see's "Recent History" and hangs head, then walks away:::
Guys, Kenstrom will not appreciate this, but your enthusiasm for the topic has made me want to spill the beans. Sir Thadston has actually been sent to oversee the conversion of the Landing into a themed amusement park for Turamzzyrian families who want a glimpse at the "wild frontier" and the "crazy outpost in the marches of the Empire."
IT'S GOING TO BE GREAT.
GM Scribes
Hurray!
::see's "Recent History" and hangs head, then walks away:::
Guys, Kenstrom will not appreciate this, but your enthusiasm for the topic has made me want to spill the beans. Sir Thadston has actually been sent to oversee the conversion of the Landing into a themed amusement park for Turamzzyrian families who want a glimpse at the "wild frontier" and the "crazy outpost in the marches of the Empire."
IT'S GOING TO BE GREAT.
GM Scribes
SCRAPPERK
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 08:48 AM CST
>>Sir Thadston has actually been sent to oversee the conversion of the Landing into a themed amusement park for Turamzzyrian families who want a glimpse at the "wild frontier" and the "crazy outpost in the marches of the Empire."
But what if the robots malfunction?
- This space is left blank intentionally. -
LAUGHINGFOX
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 08:51 AM CST
I respectfully and humbly accept the mantle of Puppet Mayor/Dictator-in-Training. Don't cry for me, Wehnimer's Landing.
[LNet]-GSIV:Rhaz: "Aiska needs to come with a warning label"
[LNet]-GSIV:Rhaz: "Aiska needs to come with a warning label"
CRYHEART
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 09:05 AM CST
>Guys, Kenstrom will not appreciate this, but your enthusiasm for the topic has made me want to spill the beans. Sir Thadston has actually been sent to oversee the conversion of the Landing into a themed amusement park for Turamzzyrian families who want a glimpse at the "wild frontier" and the "crazy outpost in the marches of the Empire."<
Permanent DIBS on the Griffin ride!!!!!
Cryheart
JARHEAD
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 09:09 AM CST
>Guys, Kenstrom will not appreciate this, but your enthusiasm for the topic has made me want to spill the beans. Sir Thadston has actually been sent to oversee the conversion of the Landing into a themed amusement park for Turamzzyrian families who want a glimpse at the "wild frontier" and the "crazy outpost in the marches of the Empire."<
I get the shooting gallery, and no shooting the carny!
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
I get the shooting gallery, and no shooting the carny!
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
JADZIABLUE
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 09:25 AM CST
>But what if the robots malfunction?
Asimov's Laws of Robotics:
1) A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2) A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3) A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
Notice how this doesn't say anything about elves!
Signed,
Raelee and her Strings
>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."
Asimov's Laws of Robotics:
1) A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2) A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3) A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
Notice how this doesn't say anything about elves!
Signed,
Raelee and her Strings
>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."
GS4-KENSTROM
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 09:36 AM CST
>>Guys, Kenstrom will not appreciate this, but your enthusiasm for the topic has made me want to spill the beans. Sir Thadston has actually been sent to oversee the conversion of the Landing into a themed amusement park for Turamzzyrian families who want a glimpse at the "wild frontier" and the "crazy outpost in the marches of the Empire."
Well, since the cat is out of the bag now. I suppose I can announce the rest.
Expect to have a lot of fun on such amazing attractions such as these!
* Melgorehn's Reach Water Tunnels Ride!
* Mud Pool Jump in the Catacombs!
* Rock Climb to the top of the Colossus!
* Rickety Stairs in Hobgoblin Village!
* Ladder Leap from Paupers Pool Tower!
* Dodge the Falling Golems! (attraction closed as of 1/9/15)
* Runner Message Relay Race!
* TreeHouse Jump in TSC!
* Battle the Tiny Red Army in Fire Ant Hill!
...oh wait, park or no park, these still exist! Hehe.
-GM Kenstrom-
Waylayer of Wehnimer's Landing
Human Guru
Giantmen Guru
Well, since the cat is out of the bag now. I suppose I can announce the rest.
Expect to have a lot of fun on such amazing attractions such as these!
* Melgorehn's Reach Water Tunnels Ride!
* Mud Pool Jump in the Catacombs!
* Rock Climb to the top of the Colossus!
* Rickety Stairs in Hobgoblin Village!
* Ladder Leap from Paupers Pool Tower!
* Dodge the Falling Golems! (attraction closed as of 1/9/15)
* Runner Message Relay Race!
* TreeHouse Jump in TSC!
* Battle the Tiny Red Army in Fire Ant Hill!
...oh wait, park or no park, these still exist! Hehe.
-GM Kenstrom-
Waylayer of Wehnimer's Landing
Human Guru
Giantmen Guru
COYOTERRE
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 09:45 AM CST
>The absence of many of the old members of the Dae'randir has certainly brought about a lot of changes. Your imprisonment coupled with Ondreian's long absence was nearly the death nell of the group. Almost all of the older members left Elanthia and the Dae'randir was disbanded for a time. Were it not for Lyllenyn's considerable efforts the Dae'randir would no longer exist. The absence of so many of the old guard caused alot of the identity of the Dae'randir to be lost and that is unfortunate. Certainly our leadership styles are very different with mine being much more Laissez-faire and at the same time more aggressive or militant I believe you once characterized it.
My point in bringing up the past was simply to illustrate what I am aware of and what I remember of player organizations owing fealty to certain cities versus other entities. I was there in 2003 when them folks were knighted. Not a knock on the current direction of the Dae'Randir, or how you are leading it. I think many of Turinrond's actions and opinions have been independent, as is the nature of the group these days, and where possible or politically astute, I have brought things to the group that I hope and assume were appreciated (Talador raid, Nysina/Shades, Black Diamond Masquerade Ball). It's your group now, run it however you like. I'm just a cog in the wheel.
>In fairness to you it was always your opinion that you could keep Cosima safe and you were genuinely taken aback by her brutal execution. I thought that there would be one of two outcomes. Either Davard would give in and withdraw, or Cosima would die and he would be broken. Her death did ultimately save many others. A better outcome would have been for Davard to withdraw.
In reality, there was a LOT of correspondence sent to Drangell during Cosima's imprisonment. (Poor, poor Kenstrom). As a player, once Drangell failed to respond to Turinrond and the whole "I got this, man." attitude - I knew she was toast. But, I enjoy playing Turinrond a little naive and confident in his cunning, so yes, his message was .. what it was, as well as his response. My post was OOC, as well as this response. Just so we're clear. Last thing I'm interested in, is bringing up that whole scenario again. My interest in this thread is merely what rights a citizen of the Landing has. To which I have still not received an answer, so DUN DUN DUNNNNN.
>I nearly got away clean. Had I been a second or two quicker no one would have know I had ever been there. I was probably a split second away from being cast on.
I know. It was close. I wish that we had managed to have an empty room and Tayeros' corpse (with a not-so-mysterious letter in his pocket) there, that would have been awesome and led to tremendous speculation. Oh well.
>Do I detect a rebuke? :) You know as well as I that there was no point in denying anything as it would not have been accepted. Again, had I been two seconds quicker no one would have ever known I was there at all which would have been the preferable outcome.
Truth is the truth. That character found by Tayeros' freshly dead corpse was not the cause of Tayeros' death. After being hanged for the Cosima raid (along with Ondreian), and his one week banishment (along with 5 others) for the Kestrel assassination, do you think Turinrond is going to sit idly by and let someone else take the blame for something he knows they did not do? That is the rebuke, if you think that's going to fly. Turinrond shoulders the burdens for others, he does NOT allow ANYONE* to shoulder the burden for him, where mortally possible.
The point of denying the assumption, vigorously if need be, is/was the TRUTH. Hall of Mages Grand Magister Tayeros' death is not on the hands of leader of the Dae'Randir. It's absolute folly to think Turinrond is going to allow that speculation to go uncontended.
Now, if characters want to keep believing whatever they believe - heck, that's always going to happen.
* He has departed from this stance ONCE in recent memory, and that created a tremendous whirlwind of issues, so we can go back to assuming he will conduct himself as an independent operator without need for anyone to carry anything for him in coming days. If I'm even around, heh.
Respectfully,
~ Bill, Coyote.
The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination.
~ Voltaire
My point in bringing up the past was simply to illustrate what I am aware of and what I remember of player organizations owing fealty to certain cities versus other entities. I was there in 2003 when them folks were knighted. Not a knock on the current direction of the Dae'Randir, or how you are leading it. I think many of Turinrond's actions and opinions have been independent, as is the nature of the group these days, and where possible or politically astute, I have brought things to the group that I hope and assume were appreciated (Talador raid, Nysina/Shades, Black Diamond Masquerade Ball). It's your group now, run it however you like. I'm just a cog in the wheel.
>In fairness to you it was always your opinion that you could keep Cosima safe and you were genuinely taken aback by her brutal execution. I thought that there would be one of two outcomes. Either Davard would give in and withdraw, or Cosima would die and he would be broken. Her death did ultimately save many others. A better outcome would have been for Davard to withdraw.
In reality, there was a LOT of correspondence sent to Drangell during Cosima's imprisonment. (Poor, poor Kenstrom). As a player, once Drangell failed to respond to Turinrond and the whole "I got this, man." attitude - I knew she was toast. But, I enjoy playing Turinrond a little naive and confident in his cunning, so yes, his message was .. what it was, as well as his response. My post was OOC, as well as this response. Just so we're clear. Last thing I'm interested in, is bringing up that whole scenario again. My interest in this thread is merely what rights a citizen of the Landing has. To which I have still not received an answer, so DUN DUN DUNNNNN.
>I nearly got away clean. Had I been a second or two quicker no one would have know I had ever been there. I was probably a split second away from being cast on.
I know. It was close. I wish that we had managed to have an empty room and Tayeros' corpse (with a not-so-mysterious letter in his pocket) there, that would have been awesome and led to tremendous speculation. Oh well.
>Do I detect a rebuke? :) You know as well as I that there was no point in denying anything as it would not have been accepted. Again, had I been two seconds quicker no one would have ever known I was there at all which would have been the preferable outcome.
Truth is the truth. That character found by Tayeros' freshly dead corpse was not the cause of Tayeros' death. After being hanged for the Cosima raid (along with Ondreian), and his one week banishment (along with 5 others) for the Kestrel assassination, do you think Turinrond is going to sit idly by and let someone else take the blame for something he knows they did not do? That is the rebuke, if you think that's going to fly. Turinrond shoulders the burdens for others, he does NOT allow ANYONE* to shoulder the burden for him, where mortally possible.
The point of denying the assumption, vigorously if need be, is/was the TRUTH. Hall of Mages Grand Magister Tayeros' death is not on the hands of leader of the Dae'Randir. It's absolute folly to think Turinrond is going to allow that speculation to go uncontended.
Now, if characters want to keep believing whatever they believe - heck, that's always going to happen.
* He has departed from this stance ONCE in recent memory, and that created a tremendous whirlwind of issues, so we can go back to assuming he will conduct himself as an independent operator without need for anyone to carry anything for him in coming days. If I'm even around, heh.
Respectfully,
~ Bill, Coyote.
The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination.
~ Voltaire
RISHIB1
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 09:57 AM CST
>You bring up a good real-life parallel. I live in Louisiana; I face-palm a lot about what my state's legislators do, and whenever I have to go north of Baton Rouge, I feel as though I'm in a parallel universe. Despite that, I love living here and wouldn't take kindly to Texas coming in and governing for us no matter how much I may dislike some of what happens -- especially when I suspect the good folks of the Lone Star State would sell the Saints to Salt Lake City and "clean up" Mardi Gras. I live here because I like nasty Mardi Gras and Saints games on Sundays and streetcar rides. That doesn't mean I don't like Texas; it's a great state, and the people there were wonderful to us when we visited. I just don't want to live there. As lousy as my state is in a lot of ways, it's also like nowhere else in the world. I wouldn't have half as much fun anywhere else.
Louisiana becoming a Texas protectorate? On it! :P
Rishi
- Player of Kembal, and also a Texan :)
Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."
Louisiana becoming a Texas protectorate? On it! :P
Rishi
- Player of Kembal, and also a Texan :)
Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."
JARHEAD
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 10:00 AM CST
<I nearly got away clean. Had I been a second or two quicker no one would have know I had ever been there. I was probably a split second away from being cast on.
If you're referring to being seen by Radeek then no, you weren't about to be cast at. My finger was nowhere near the F-12 key (spike). Actually, that was one heck of a moment of confusion and disappointment for Radeek, though as a player I understand everything that was done, and why.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
If you're referring to being seen by Radeek then no, you weren't about to be cast at. My finger was nowhere near the F-12 key (spike). Actually, that was one heck of a moment of confusion and disappointment for Radeek, though as a player I understand everything that was done, and why.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
DMWCINCY
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 10:13 AM CST
Coyote, the simple unofficial answer to your question is pretty much what Greg said. The landing is seperate from all empires/nations/etc in game. They are their own law. With that said you are talking about a 10k give or take town in the middle of no where with little in the way of an army(militia and adventurers) and as of now due to many events very little in the way of allies. When ever the landing has handed over a criminal to the empire its not because the empire came in and took him, the landing council decided to give the empire the criminal. Same thing with the trial...that was something asked for and granted by the town to allow it to happen in the town.
With that all said, the Landing is a town compare to a whole empire. Despite for story sake that the town fended it self off two large cities in the past, the town itself really can not hold up at all(I would give it a hour maybe tops...) against the true might of an Imperial army. If they really really wanted to come and get you in true force there is little we can do to resist. Resist we will and unless kenstrom puts the story shield on our town for the sake of the story there is nothing we can do about it(think big brother that is 5 years older then you picking on you...). As Greg also mention if the Elven Nations decided to come take you, we could call on the Earl or Baron to come to help us due to our status of protectorate. The reason this helps us is that the empire sees us as their ally and dont want outside influences to mess with us. Kind of look at it like the brother analogy again...its all good when big brother picks on you but heaven forbid anyone else does....
So to sum up, you have all the rights of the laws of the Landing while inside the walls. There is no legal standing for the empire/nations inside the walls. Nothing stops you being exported by town council (especially if it gains them political favor...) and outside "whats best for the story in the eyes of the GM" there is pretty little we can do to stop the empire or nations from taking you by force.
With that all said, the Landing is a town compare to a whole empire. Despite for story sake that the town fended it self off two large cities in the past, the town itself really can not hold up at all(I would give it a hour maybe tops...) against the true might of an Imperial army. If they really really wanted to come and get you in true force there is little we can do to resist. Resist we will and unless kenstrom puts the story shield on our town for the sake of the story there is nothing we can do about it(think big brother that is 5 years older then you picking on you...). As Greg also mention if the Elven Nations decided to come take you, we could call on the Earl or Baron to come to help us due to our status of protectorate. The reason this helps us is that the empire sees us as their ally and dont want outside influences to mess with us. Kind of look at it like the brother analogy again...its all good when big brother picks on you but heaven forbid anyone else does....
So to sum up, you have all the rights of the laws of the Landing while inside the walls. There is no legal standing for the empire/nations inside the walls. Nothing stops you being exported by town council (especially if it gains them political favor...) and outside "whats best for the story in the eyes of the GM" there is pretty little we can do to stop the empire or nations from taking you by force.
FALAN
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 10:24 AM CST
"Kissing under the Stars" at the Shrine of Dreams...
Brawl With Kai at his Shrine!
<grin>
__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar
You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!
* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!
Brawl With Kai at his Shrine!
<grin>
__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar
You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!
* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!
DMWCINCY
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 10:38 AM CST
>>- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar
Make overs with Pylasar (and in very very small print under it: No refunds. You accept all responsibilities for the changes the wizard does)
Make overs with Pylasar (and in very very small print under it: No refunds. You accept all responsibilities for the changes the wizard does)
GS4-KENSTROM
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 11:01 AM CST
>>I still do not think that I understand what a "protectorate" is. I DO understand why the Empire takes interest in the Landing (I'll address in a moment).
Below is a good post by Earl Jovery back in 2011, which is I believe one of the first mentions of "protectorate". The Earl was pissed that Barnon Slim, the corrupt interim mayor, banished the Silver Gryphons from town (claimed they were helping the framed murderer Walkar and helped him escape jail) and then he also had town guards lock up the Holding. This was a direct defiance of the Earl's previous establishment and recognition of the Order of the Silver Gryphon. So he said, fix this, or we'll come in and fix you.
Four years later, the Earl has now dispatched some men to come help fix things up. He dispatched a LOT more to Talador, given the fact he removed their noble class, replaced them with Hendorans, and even took land and titles and taxes and gave them to the Hendorans who are now in Talador helping out.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Towns/Wehnimer's%20Landing/view/1854
As GM Scribes said, there's no contract established. As time has gone on, and more involvement from imperial presence/forces have been involved, the Landing has become a protectorate in the eyes of the Empire. Whether Landing agees or not, based on the history, it really does break down to that. A protectorate, for all intents and purposes, is basically saying Landing is under the sphere of influence of the Empire, but it does not have the same imperial laws and jurisdiction. Whenever danger has come to Landing, the Empire has more often than not, extended their aid. Vornavian soldiers, Mestaniri knights, Hendorans, etc. When Hochstib tried to take over, when Grishom tried to bleed the town, even some with the Lich King, the krolvin, and Cross and the Shadows.
The Landing operates freely because the Empire allows it, as simple as I can make it. There are benefits to this: the people are free, and essentially happy, and trade is open. I am sure more than a few nobles/rulers use the Landing as a means to deal in goods or services they might not easily do so within their own borders. The Landing is a good hub for many things, and requires little to no imperial resources up until now. So given so many problems in Landing recently, fairly assigned to the town or not, it could make Empire weak, or look weak, if they didn't take some kind of precaution, even if temporary, to help better assess or control the area.
If the Empire truly felt the town needed taken over, it'd happen. It'd be bloody no doubt, but it'd happen due to sheer number alone. (unless the Faendryl and Nalfein stepped in and the Fourth Elven War was waged with Landing as the backdrop, haha). What will happen in the future? No idea, I'm kind of winging it, in for the ride along with you guys.
>>I think I understand the authority that Jovery took with the Silver Gryphons - it sounded like a demotion to me.
Kind of, yes, but a demotion in the eyes of the Empire. Clearly the Landing folks feel no differently. As Geijon said in a post earlier, there's some sticky situations within the Gryphons, because the Order itself consists of Knights and non-Knights, and the Knights are all oathed to Malwind. Even those originally oathed to Jovery, had it moved to Malwind. (which in truth, Malwind answers to Jovery, so it's all a straight line up.) Well, because of the Talador war, the Gryphon Knights are now directly answering to Earl Jovery, through Sir Thadston. But those are the Knights, not the Order specifically. So you have an organization ( the Gryphons ) who don't technically answer to an imperial, BUT the Order's leader, Sir Cryheart, and those Knighted within the Order (some members and officers) also do. Fun times!
>>I do think it boils down to what are citizen rights within this thing called a "protectorate"?
Simply put, Wehnimer's Citizens = Wehnimer's Laws. Imperial Citizens = Imperial Laws. Which is what causes half of the problem, because the Landing is often seen as a sanctuary, which is part of its appeal to its citizens.
-GM Kenstrom-
Waylayer of Wehnimer's Landing
Human Guru
Giantmen Guru
Below is a good post by Earl Jovery back in 2011, which is I believe one of the first mentions of "protectorate". The Earl was pissed that Barnon Slim, the corrupt interim mayor, banished the Silver Gryphons from town (claimed they were helping the framed murderer Walkar and helped him escape jail) and then he also had town guards lock up the Holding. This was a direct defiance of the Earl's previous establishment and recognition of the Order of the Silver Gryphon. So he said, fix this, or we'll come in and fix you.
Four years later, the Earl has now dispatched some men to come help fix things up. He dispatched a LOT more to Talador, given the fact he removed their noble class, replaced them with Hendorans, and even took land and titles and taxes and gave them to the Hendorans who are now in Talador helping out.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Towns/Wehnimer's%20Landing/view/1854
As GM Scribes said, there's no contract established. As time has gone on, and more involvement from imperial presence/forces have been involved, the Landing has become a protectorate in the eyes of the Empire. Whether Landing agees or not, based on the history, it really does break down to that. A protectorate, for all intents and purposes, is basically saying Landing is under the sphere of influence of the Empire, but it does not have the same imperial laws and jurisdiction. Whenever danger has come to Landing, the Empire has more often than not, extended their aid. Vornavian soldiers, Mestaniri knights, Hendorans, etc. When Hochstib tried to take over, when Grishom tried to bleed the town, even some with the Lich King, the krolvin, and Cross and the Shadows.
The Landing operates freely because the Empire allows it, as simple as I can make it. There are benefits to this: the people are free, and essentially happy, and trade is open. I am sure more than a few nobles/rulers use the Landing as a means to deal in goods or services they might not easily do so within their own borders. The Landing is a good hub for many things, and requires little to no imperial resources up until now. So given so many problems in Landing recently, fairly assigned to the town or not, it could make Empire weak, or look weak, if they didn't take some kind of precaution, even if temporary, to help better assess or control the area.
If the Empire truly felt the town needed taken over, it'd happen. It'd be bloody no doubt, but it'd happen due to sheer number alone. (unless the Faendryl and Nalfein stepped in and the Fourth Elven War was waged with Landing as the backdrop, haha). What will happen in the future? No idea, I'm kind of winging it, in for the ride along with you guys.
>>I think I understand the authority that Jovery took with the Silver Gryphons - it sounded like a demotion to me.
Kind of, yes, but a demotion in the eyes of the Empire. Clearly the Landing folks feel no differently. As Geijon said in a post earlier, there's some sticky situations within the Gryphons, because the Order itself consists of Knights and non-Knights, and the Knights are all oathed to Malwind. Even those originally oathed to Jovery, had it moved to Malwind. (which in truth, Malwind answers to Jovery, so it's all a straight line up.) Well, because of the Talador war, the Gryphon Knights are now directly answering to Earl Jovery, through Sir Thadston. But those are the Knights, not the Order specifically. So you have an organization ( the Gryphons ) who don't technically answer to an imperial, BUT the Order's leader, Sir Cryheart, and those Knighted within the Order (some members and officers) also do. Fun times!
>>I do think it boils down to what are citizen rights within this thing called a "protectorate"?
Simply put, Wehnimer's Citizens = Wehnimer's Laws. Imperial Citizens = Imperial Laws. Which is what causes half of the problem, because the Landing is often seen as a sanctuary, which is part of its appeal to its citizens.
-GM Kenstrom-
Waylayer of Wehnimer's Landing
Human Guru
Giantmen Guru
GS4-KENSTROM
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 12:00 PM CST
>>I think we're kind of expected to feel some tension, aren't we?
Yes.
There's too many unknowns right now, even for myself, hah. Although I've got some ideas...
The reason I like this issue, and couldn't wait to roll it out in the "After Shadows" phase, is it essentially makes everyone right. Which means, to someone else, everyone is wrong. Cryheart is right to speak out and publically declare he and the Gryphons will not support or tolerate rebellion. Radeek is right to get stirred up and be paranoid about an imperial presence because of his people's history, the Empire's history, and even more recently, imperial NPC's during Cross into Shadows. Puptilian is right to wish to keep alert, try for peace, and cross the line if they do first. It's a perfect storm.
You also need to consider all of the perspectives and angles at play. Geijon brought up a good point. Did the Earl do this to help protect the Landing, even though it looks like a time out, go stand in the corner? Is he saving his own face, when the Gryphons and Talador refused to listen? Earl Jovery has always been a fair man in the past, proven time and again. Has it changed? Has the horrors of the Shadow War changed him? Does any of his matter, if Sir Thadston has his own agenda? What if the Earl is a just man, but Sir Thadston is not? What if the Earl is driven mad, and Sir Thadston is righteous? What if it isn't the Earl or Knight at all? What if it's members within the Hendoran outpost, the staff, the soldiers, a squire? What is their agenda? Simple? Or is there more to it?
Obviously, it's too soon to tell, either way on anyone involved. Which is why I'm as happy as a fat kid in a cake store right now. Have fun! I know I will. (also, I'm not going to be in-game much for the next week and a half, so feel free to catch up on some sleep right along with me.)
-GM Kenstrom-
Waylayer of Wehnimer's Landing
Human Guru
Giantmen Guru
Yes.
There's too many unknowns right now, even for myself, hah. Although I've got some ideas...
The reason I like this issue, and couldn't wait to roll it out in the "After Shadows" phase, is it essentially makes everyone right. Which means, to someone else, everyone is wrong. Cryheart is right to speak out and publically declare he and the Gryphons will not support or tolerate rebellion. Radeek is right to get stirred up and be paranoid about an imperial presence because of his people's history, the Empire's history, and even more recently, imperial NPC's during Cross into Shadows. Puptilian is right to wish to keep alert, try for peace, and cross the line if they do first. It's a perfect storm.
You also need to consider all of the perspectives and angles at play. Geijon brought up a good point. Did the Earl do this to help protect the Landing, even though it looks like a time out, go stand in the corner? Is he saving his own face, when the Gryphons and Talador refused to listen? Earl Jovery has always been a fair man in the past, proven time and again. Has it changed? Has the horrors of the Shadow War changed him? Does any of his matter, if Sir Thadston has his own agenda? What if the Earl is a just man, but Sir Thadston is not? What if the Earl is driven mad, and Sir Thadston is righteous? What if it isn't the Earl or Knight at all? What if it's members within the Hendoran outpost, the staff, the soldiers, a squire? What is their agenda? Simple? Or is there more to it?
Obviously, it's too soon to tell, either way on anyone involved. Which is why I'm as happy as a fat kid in a cake store right now. Have fun! I know I will. (also, I'm not going to be in-game much for the next week and a half, so feel free to catch up on some sleep right along with me.)
-GM Kenstrom-
Waylayer of Wehnimer's Landing
Human Guru
Giantmen Guru
DMWCINCY
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 12:04 PM CST
>> Which is why I'm as happy as a fat kid in a cake store right now.
Its not nice calling Rtune fat....
Its not nice calling Rtune fat....
CAMPBELLS
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 12:14 PM CST
<<Guys, Kenstrom will not appreciate this, but your enthusiasm for the topic has made me want to spill the beans. Sir Thadston has actually been sent to oversee the conversion of the Landing into a themed amusement park for Turamzzyrian families who want a glimpse at the "wild frontier" and the "crazy outpost in the marches of the Empire." >>
ahah! I knew it!
Wolfloner
ahah! I knew it!
Wolfloner
CAMPBELLS
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 12:15 PM CST
<<Asimov's Laws of Robotics:
1) A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2) A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3) A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
Notice how this doesn't say anything about elves!>>
LOL
1) A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2) A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3) A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
Notice how this doesn't say anything about elves!>>
LOL
GS4-XAYLE
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 12:19 PM CST
>The site of the mysterious death of Grand Magister Tayeros
>>Man... I liked that guy.
Seriously? I totally tried to make that guy as unlikeable as possible.
~ X.
JADZIABLUE
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 12:25 PM CST
>Seriously? I totally tried to make that guy as unlikeable as possible.
Raelee's standards of 'likeable' don't really mesh with most people's. :)
Signed,
Raelee and her Strings
>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."
Raelee's standards of 'likeable' don't really mesh with most people's. :)
Signed,
Raelee and her Strings
>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."
COYOTERRE
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 12:47 PM CST
Pup, Kenstrom..
Thanks for the responses. I think I have a better feel for what you're describing. It's important, you know, because my character should have a better sense of where he stands in this mess than I, the player, do. Living and interacting in the town daily and such, he'd be able to talk to a few merchants or notables that I might not get to do as a player.
This also makes me glad that I haven't done much with the news. I've got him in "wait and see" mode, waiting for the hammer to drop with the crimes committed versus the greater threat of Althedeus eliminated.
On my way out the door, but wanted to give a quick thanks for the response, and to let you know I'll be mulling it over, during our little break.
Respectfully,
~ Bill, Coyote.
The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination.
~ Voltaire
Thanks for the responses. I think I have a better feel for what you're describing. It's important, you know, because my character should have a better sense of where he stands in this mess than I, the player, do. Living and interacting in the town daily and such, he'd be able to talk to a few merchants or notables that I might not get to do as a player.
This also makes me glad that I haven't done much with the news. I've got him in "wait and see" mode, waiting for the hammer to drop with the crimes committed versus the greater threat of Althedeus eliminated.
On my way out the door, but wanted to give a quick thanks for the response, and to let you know I'll be mulling it over, during our little break.
Respectfully,
~ Bill, Coyote.
The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination.
~ Voltaire
ARSENAULTL1
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 12:48 PM CST
>>Seriously? I totally tried to make that guy as unlikeable as possible.
I liked him too...but then again, he was torturing Crosslings.
This isn't normal!
What do you mean this isn't normal!?!
This is way worse!!
I liked him too...but then again, he was torturing Crosslings.
This isn't normal!
What do you mean this isn't normal!?!
This is way worse!!
SNOWBEAM
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 12:49 PM CST
<<Seriously? I totally tried to make that guy unlikeable as possible.>>
Rowmi liked the idea of a powerful mentalist in town...but then someone shot him. Sigh.
-The mind behind Rowmi's eyes.
Rowmi liked the idea of a powerful mentalist in town...but then someone shot him. Sigh.
-The mind behind Rowmi's eyes.
DMWCINCY
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 01:03 PM CST
If only we had a Landing Government Documentation (hint hint Kenstrom) I bet some of that will be a bit more clear. And I agree sometimes its a pain when there are things you KNOW your character should know but you dont.
UBERWENCH
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 01:08 PM CST
>Seriously? I totally tried to make that guy as unlikeable as possible.
It worked for me!
It worked for me!
GS4-SCRIBES
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 01:14 PM CST
Isn't the Landing government doc drafted on the torn and mud stained skin of a kobold lying on the floor of Helga's?
GM Scribes
GM Scribes
MAZEIKISJ
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 01:43 PM CST
| I guess I was just curious as to how much of your view of these facts came from the player and how much from the character. |
General overview really, and with a general overview comes a bit of generalization- if it's explored IC, I'm sure more attention to detail will be paid to the particulars. I tried to keep it brief and as less tl;dr as possibru because my posts are always giant rambling messes. Speaking of which.
On the protectorate thing, the Big Brother analogy is pretty fitting. Also as much as some harken back to older storylines and say 'there weren't aid rendered upons,' I do have to toot our own defunct horn here and mention that the Order of the Azure Sun is on the Moot Hall memorial plaque, which means direct aid from Vornavian chivalric order. One of its dudes even murderized the Lich King later on. Easy as it might be at times to forgetski ('it's just a player, if it was a GM it'd be official'), the direct aid was always there- just in PC format, not made for Macs! Same exact vein, Geijon's conjecture on the nature of the Order of the Silver Gryphon- in his words, technically a de facto imperial outpost, so it can too and originally be considered imperial aid.
| ...we know our hands are kind of tied there. |
Yes, there's not much that could've been done mechanically- so I playerwise don't hold it against you, and fairness wise it's unfair to bring it up repeatedly and say 'SEE IT'S UR FAULT WAAGGH' ICly, so I deliberately try not to (which is admittedly just a bit metagamey in a fashion, but i'd wager acceptably). However, it's a shame if that's how you felt and for what it's worth I'm sorry that whole thing may not have been as fun as it could have been.
The player-driven RP thing boils down to communication and fair spiritedness, but also not everyone is all upons getting down with the ACT, and there's nothing wrong with that (but it does close interesting doors). So when it does close doors, though, or those doors aren't even opened, again I don't hold it against you/other players who felt similarly and I would totes wager GMs don't either (just guessing here, you never know with that Scribes guy).
Since I didn't do any thank yous yet, I did want to toss out a couple while we have this thread completely derailed, so vaguely still on topic, I have to say I rather much celebrate Mr. Coyote Bill over yonder and the progress he's made after returning from a long hiatus, who also has expressed repeatedly his OOC willingness and really kind of alluring and saucy need for dirty hot consequences etc. This is on top of not playing apologist or lawyertime OOCly and arguing technicalities in order to justify what his character did or didn't do- he presents them as 'Turinrond thought this was the way to go, I the player was lols and had fun with it.' That right there is class and a great example.
Which in the same way is why I really celebrate Cruxophim as being that great example of player-driven RP. Like that time Geijon dragged Cruxophim to the constabulary, or that time Cruxophim kept coming after Raelee with a knife. Or that time Cruxophim was going to be causing trouble in Solhaven, so Bristenn grabbed him by the collar and dragged him along with the battlegroup to keep an eye on him. Or really, any 'that time' with Cruxophim, because his player is an example of awesome when it comes to being game for gettin' creative and rolling with it.
| On the other hand, I do still have that deputy star in Lylia's locker from a number of years ago. Hah, I don't even know if that's still A Thing in GSIV. Maybe I'll pull it out and swagger around like Veronica at the end of "Heathers" and proclaim that there's a new sheriff in town. (Got to get a big red scrunchie to add verisimilitude, though.) |
First, Veronica Sawyer meow, she can shoplift my heart any day. LOL SECOND, that's actually a hilariously good idea- Thrayzar should make him some peace officers.
-james, bristenn's player
| You think to yourself, "FFF-" |
| A giant white bunny hurls a powerful lightning bolt at you! |
| You evade the bolt by a hair! |
GS4-XAYLE
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 02:50 PM CST
>>Raelee's standards of 'likeable' don't really mesh with most people's. :)
Point.
>>I liked him too...but then again, he was torturing Crosslings.
Yeah, that was pretty fun.
>>Rowmi liked the idea of a powerful mentalist in town...but then someone shot him. Sigh.
Shot Rowmi? Was it an arrow to the knee?
>>It worked for me!
HOORAY!
~ X.
CAMPBELLS
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 02:56 PM CST
<<My point in bringing up the past was simply to illustrate what I am aware of and what I remember of player organizations owing fealty to certain cities versus other entities. I was there in 2003 when them folks were knighted. Not a knock on the current direction of the Dae'Randir, or how you are leading it. I think many of Turinrond's actions and opinions have been independent, as is the nature of the group these days, and where possible or politically astute, I have brought things to the group that I hope and assume were appreciated (Talador raid, Nysina/Shades, Black Diamond Masquerade Ball). It's your group now, run it however you like. I'm just a cog in the wheel.>>
I do take exception to your comment "It's your group now, run it however you like". That comment does not accurately portray what goes within the membership of the Dae'randir. I never considered the Dae'randir "my" group nor you nor any other member just a cog in the wheel. I view my role within the Dae'randir as watching over it more than leading it. That Laissez-faire approach allows members to act independently and with autonomy and it is only governed by some basic guidelines based on the principles on how Onar operates. Your own autonomy and independence within the Dae'randir since your return reflects that.
<<Truth is the truth. That character found by Tayeros' freshly dead corpse was not the cause of Tayeros' death. After being hanged for the Cosima raid (along with Ondreian), and his one week banishment (along with 5 others) for the Kestrel assassination, do you think Turinrond is going to sit idly by and let someone else take the blame for something he knows they did not do? That is the rebuke, if you think that's going to fly. Turinrond shoulders the burdens for others, he does NOT allow ANYONE* to shoulder the burden for him, where mortally possible.>>
If my silence concerning Tayeros and his death created intrigue and paranoia among "certain groups" then you can probably discern that I took some pleasure in that. But I can assure you that there was no intent of shouldering a burden for you on my part. I was witnessed rescuing Nysina and I have not commented on that either.
Wolfloner
I do take exception to your comment "It's your group now, run it however you like". That comment does not accurately portray what goes within the membership of the Dae'randir. I never considered the Dae'randir "my" group nor you nor any other member just a cog in the wheel. I view my role within the Dae'randir as watching over it more than leading it. That Laissez-faire approach allows members to act independently and with autonomy and it is only governed by some basic guidelines based on the principles on how Onar operates. Your own autonomy and independence within the Dae'randir since your return reflects that.
<<Truth is the truth. That character found by Tayeros' freshly dead corpse was not the cause of Tayeros' death. After being hanged for the Cosima raid (along with Ondreian), and his one week banishment (along with 5 others) for the Kestrel assassination, do you think Turinrond is going to sit idly by and let someone else take the blame for something he knows they did not do? That is the rebuke, if you think that's going to fly. Turinrond shoulders the burdens for others, he does NOT allow ANYONE* to shoulder the burden for him, where mortally possible.>>
If my silence concerning Tayeros and his death created intrigue and paranoia among "certain groups" then you can probably discern that I took some pleasure in that. But I can assure you that there was no intent of shouldering a burden for you on my part. I was witnessed rescuing Nysina and I have not commented on that either.
Wolfloner
SNOWBEAM
Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
01/15/2015 03:04 PM CST
<<Shot Rowmi?>>
I was a Grand Magister like you but...wait no.
-The mind behind Rowmi's eyes.
I was a Grand Magister like you but...wait no.
-The mind behind Rowmi's eyes.
