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Let's keep this in 1 thread, I suspect that some folks are using the legacy view and using the subject to respond, but for the threaded view users that makes things confusing.
I agree that pickpocketing needs to be updated to fit with how GS works these days. It's something that we have talked about but we haven't had that eureka moment yet that gives us a clear path forward - I'd love to hear any thoughts from anybody about it.
A few of my thoughts - I wouldn't expect any character manager changes. That means that the skill and its training costs probably aren't going anywhere, so we should focus on ideas that make sense for what we have now. Stealing from critters is a common request, but you were probably going to kill it and loot its corpse anyway, so that doesn't make a ton of sense to me. And lastly, I think that an updated pickpocketing system is going go have to respect players that don't want to be stolen from in some way.
Ixix
GS4-IXIX
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Pickpocketing
12/26/2016 07:37 PM CST
>> I've come to realize that the majority of folk in GS just aren't capable of separating themselves from their characters and\or aren't skilled enough to roleplay conflict without resorting to combat mechanics.
It's been my experience that many of the pickpocket characters of the past were much more interested using Picking Pockets as a protected way of griefing other players than they were is seeking RP that was fun for both parties. I'm all about RP in most situations but when individuals choose to to nothing other than stand in a room stealing from people over and over or choose to repeatedly target players 1/10th their level then I don't have a lot of interest in RPing with them after awhile.
I've definitely had fun with individual pick pockets in the past but it's a small number compared to snerts that just are focused on simply ruining the fun for others.
I'd be all for an expansion of the pickpocket / stealing skill with controls that prevented the skill from being abused against other players. e.g. after you've been caught stealing from others so much in a certain period of time you should have a reputation where after a point you would no longer be welcome in the town - the guards would drag you to a quiet part of town, kick you around a bit, then drive you out - the law might arrest you on site. Get enough of a reputation and maybe you wouldn't be welcome in neighboring towns either.
Time should only alleviate a portion of that negative reputation - if you wanted to remove the rest you would need to do good deeds on the towns behalf or continue to be viewed with suspicion, receive worse deals with most town merchants (or have some town merchants simply refuse to deal with you) , be outcast from certain social events (read merchant RP and events here). Such is the choice you make when you decide to prey citizens and visitors of a given town.
-- Robert
A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
PFLATS
Re: Pickpocketing
12/26/2016 08:44 PM CST
To be honest, I've given up figuring out who CRIME is replying to at this point, so I'll just address the idea in general.
Having a 100% CvC skill just doesn't fit the Gemstone of today. I think Step 1 should be renaming it to Sleight of Hand, Subterfuge, Dirty Fighting, Streetwise, or something similar. Give it other advantages: bonus to disarming specific traps (or better yet, make some new traps that'd require it!), maybe some daily powers like MANA <x> and STAMNINA <x> for getting a discount on pawnshop items, selling without a racial malus, maybe an urchin guide/day every 100 ranks. New shortcuts to living hunting grounds. Use trap components in combat (or power up the existing combat ones; let capped rogues blast a room full of bandits out of hiding and have resource-limited CC). Make and use poisons.
And then keep pickpocketing as a small facet of what it can do, the same way that training weapons or spells lets you attack other characters, but isn't why you train them.
Having a 100% CvC skill just doesn't fit the Gemstone of today. I think Step 1 should be renaming it to Sleight of Hand, Subterfuge, Dirty Fighting, Streetwise, or something similar. Give it other advantages: bonus to disarming specific traps (or better yet, make some new traps that'd require it!), maybe some daily powers like MANA <x> and STAMNINA <x> for getting a discount on pawnshop items, selling without a racial malus, maybe an urchin guide/day every 100 ranks. New shortcuts to living hunting grounds. Use trap components in combat (or power up the existing combat ones; let capped rogues blast a room full of bandits out of hiding and have resource-limited CC). Make and use poisons.
And then keep pickpocketing as a small facet of what it can do, the same way that training weapons or spells lets you attack other characters, but isn't why you train them.
PFLATS
Re: Pickpocketing
12/26/2016 08:44 PM CST
(This is obviously more work, but I just don't see how to balance pickpocketing as a standalone skill.)
DVDMORSE
Re: Pickpocketing
12/26/2016 09:22 PM CST
For me, the only way to make pickpocketing reasonable would include the following:
1. If you are caught stealing and the target accuses you, then there is a warrant out for you. No more of the victims not being believed.
2. If there is a warrant out for you and you are in town and hidden, there should be a chance at various intervals that you are spotted and arrested. We've had cases of characters living for months in towns they were banned from and not being arrested just by remaining hidden. That makes the justice system useless because you can commit crimes and still avoid arrest indefinitely.
3. If you are accused and are caught by the justice system, whatever you stole is taken from you and returned to the victim. I think this is essential. It's absurd that right now thieves can keep whatever they steal, even if they are caught, and victims have no way of having anything returned to them.
>>And lastly, I think that an updated pickpocketing system is going go have to respect players that don't want to be stolen from in some way.--Ixix
Best idea of all. Let those of us who do not want to participate in the theft system opt out. Then those who enjoy it can have their fun without bothering anyone.
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
1. If you are caught stealing and the target accuses you, then there is a warrant out for you. No more of the victims not being believed.
2. If there is a warrant out for you and you are in town and hidden, there should be a chance at various intervals that you are spotted and arrested. We've had cases of characters living for months in towns they were banned from and not being arrested just by remaining hidden. That makes the justice system useless because you can commit crimes and still avoid arrest indefinitely.
3. If you are accused and are caught by the justice system, whatever you stole is taken from you and returned to the victim. I think this is essential. It's absurd that right now thieves can keep whatever they steal, even if they are caught, and victims have no way of having anything returned to them.
>>And lastly, I think that an updated pickpocketing system is going go have to respect players that don't want to be stolen from in some way.--Ixix
Best idea of all. Let those of us who do not want to participate in the theft system opt out. Then those who enjoy it can have their fun without bothering anyone.
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
CLOS
Re: Pickpocketing
12/26/2016 10:35 PM CST
>> 1. If you are caught stealing and the target accuses you, then there is a warrant out for you. No more of the victims not being believed.
This is completely ridiculous that there is no failure. What if you are a completely new person in town accusing someone that has attained citizenship? There should always be some chance for failure
>> 2. If there is a warrant out for you and you are in town and hidden, there should be a chance at various intervals that you are spotted and arrested. We've had cases of characters living for months in towns they were banned from and not being arrested just by remaining hidden. That makes the justice system useless because you can commit crimes and still avoid arrest indefinitely.
This is an even a worst idea and hampers anyone that wants to RP a roguish or bandit character. The justice system is already so OP it is a joke and should be completely revamped, there should never have been these auto-jail mechanics in the first place. Instead some sort of ever more powerful NPCs (monster-like) characters should "show up" to apprehend you when you are spotted that you can defeat in combat.
If someone is being such a nuisance that they need to be "autojailed" then GMs likely need to be involved for disruptive behavior.
The idea for a more broad "sleight-of-hand" skill is an interesting one, and has a lot of merit, but I really think more faction-based systems, and in this case profession-centric bounties handed out at the guild are the clearest path for revival, and would provide some much needed dynamics for a lot of the capped/near capped rogues that grow bored.
DOUG
Re: Pickpocketing
12/26/2016 10:49 PM CST
>>hampers anyone that wants to RP a roguish or bandit character
Define this. The problem, clearly stated by a couple players - but I'll add my own inimitable words - is that the skill, with no checks and without inescapable repercussions, is used to grief others. Every counter point you made, Clos, attempts to build moderation (and frankly, some cool / fun ideas) so that there is no inescapable repercussion.
We have that today. So until this concept of 'rp a rogish or bandit character' can be stated in terms that players don't think griefing is possible, this isn't likely to go very far, at least in my personal view. And for those very few rogues out there that manage to control their itchy fingers 99.9 percent of the time, I'm sorry in advance. That's socialism for ya!
Doug
Define this. The problem, clearly stated by a couple players - but I'll add my own inimitable words - is that the skill, with no checks and without inescapable repercussions, is used to grief others. Every counter point you made, Clos, attempts to build moderation (and frankly, some cool / fun ideas) so that there is no inescapable repercussion.
We have that today. So until this concept of 'rp a rogish or bandit character' can be stated in terms that players don't think griefing is possible, this isn't likely to go very far, at least in my personal view. And for those very few rogues out there that manage to control their itchy fingers 99.9 percent of the time, I'm sorry in advance. That's socialism for ya!
Doug
DVDMORSE
Re: Pickpocketing
12/26/2016 11:45 PM CST
>> 1. If you are caught stealing and the target accuses you, then there is a warrant out for you. No more of the victims not being believed.
>>This is completely ridiculous that there is no failure. What if you are a completely new person in town accusing someone that has attained citizenship? There should always be some chance for failure
>> 2. If there is a warrant out for you and you are in town and hidden, there should be a chance at various intervals that you are spotted and arrested. We've had cases of characters living for months in towns they were banned from and not being arrested just by remaining hidden. That makes the justice system useless because you can commit crimes and still avoid arrest indefinitely.
>>This is an even a worst idea and hampers anyone that wants to RP a roguish or bandit character. The justice system is already so OP it is a joke and should be completely revamped, there should never have been these auto-jail mechanics in the first place. Instead some sort of ever more powerful NPCs (monster-like) characters should "show up" to apprehend you when you are spotted that you can defeat in combat.
The only reason to have a chance for failure is for the thief to be able to get away with the crime, even when he is caught, thus giving even fewer repercussions. You seem to want to make the argument on the basis of realism (what if it is someone not known in town?), but that only works if we also do the punishments in terms of realism. I will accept the idea of an accusation not being believed if you will accept a thief who is caught being jailed for six real-time months.
The same thing applies to the second point--the only argument is that thieves want to be able to get away after being caught. But that then takes away all options for characters that are of lower lower level than the thieves. Your desire to play a shady character should not give you the right to bully newer characters and ruin their fun.
Here's another idea: to prevent abuse, you can only steal from characters at least five levels higher than you are. That should cut down on the bullying.
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
>>This is completely ridiculous that there is no failure. What if you are a completely new person in town accusing someone that has attained citizenship? There should always be some chance for failure
>> 2. If there is a warrant out for you and you are in town and hidden, there should be a chance at various intervals that you are spotted and arrested. We've had cases of characters living for months in towns they were banned from and not being arrested just by remaining hidden. That makes the justice system useless because you can commit crimes and still avoid arrest indefinitely.
>>This is an even a worst idea and hampers anyone that wants to RP a roguish or bandit character. The justice system is already so OP it is a joke and should be completely revamped, there should never have been these auto-jail mechanics in the first place. Instead some sort of ever more powerful NPCs (monster-like) characters should "show up" to apprehend you when you are spotted that you can defeat in combat.
The only reason to have a chance for failure is for the thief to be able to get away with the crime, even when he is caught, thus giving even fewer repercussions. You seem to want to make the argument on the basis of realism (what if it is someone not known in town?), but that only works if we also do the punishments in terms of realism. I will accept the idea of an accusation not being believed if you will accept a thief who is caught being jailed for six real-time months.
The same thing applies to the second point--the only argument is that thieves want to be able to get away after being caught. But that then takes away all options for characters that are of lower lower level than the thieves. Your desire to play a shady character should not give you the right to bully newer characters and ruin their fun.
Here's another idea: to prevent abuse, you can only steal from characters at least five levels higher than you are. That should cut down on the bullying.
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
RATHBONER
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 06:25 AM CST
> Stealing from critters is a common request, but you were probably going to kill it and loot its corpse anyway, so that doesn't make a ton of sense to me.
Not every character is a homicidal maniac and additional ways of portraying those who are larcenous rather than murderous would be welcome.
Some massacre every troll that crosses their escort's path. Some ewave them and move on. I'd like to be able to ewave them, rifle a shiny piece of mica from their pockets, mock them and move on. A rift crawler is a fair fight and probably doesn't have pockets anyway but a forest troll is an RP opportunity and extracting a toll from their pockets would add interest to an otherwise boring encounter with a nuisance critter.
Not every character is a homicidal maniac and additional ways of portraying those who are larcenous rather than murderous would be welcome.
Some massacre every troll that crosses their escort's path. Some ewave them and move on. I'd like to be able to ewave them, rifle a shiny piece of mica from their pockets, mock them and move on. A rift crawler is a fair fight and probably doesn't have pockets anyway but a forest troll is an RP opportunity and extracting a toll from their pockets would add interest to an otherwise boring encounter with a nuisance critter.
CLOS
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 08:44 AM CST
>> Here's another idea: to prevent abuse, you can only steal from characters at least five levels higher than you are. That should cut down on the bullying.
I most certainly agree that there needs to exist a way to limit bullying, but your stance is rather harsh on a skill that people are asking to revive in a way that would enhance RP.
Bounding it by levels while excellent in theory, is horrible in practice, i'd rather see some sort of pool, and once you steal from a person they are placed in that pool and you cannot attempt to steal from them again until you cycle through the pool. This should make is sufficiently hard to troll, due to the rate limiting, but still provide a way of interacting.
Honestly I barely use Pickpocketing any, the only times I've stolen in recent memory is from people that are just AFK scripting around, because they have annoyed me, and while certainly not in the spirit of the skill, i do enjoy exacting a toll on those people who are not being considerate with their screen scroll in public areas with their gem sorting.
CRIME
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 09:05 AM CST
Sorry, had no idea I was making new threads. The interface is lacking.
I'm going to again call shenanigans on this entire nerf.
They did it to stop the abusers without enabling a good solution.
Yet let's give sorcs free millions just for hunting.
How long has it been? 8 years? That's a long time without any attention.
I want my ability to steal made fun again. I don't care if there is a better justice system, better mechanics all around are better, and I agree trolling individuals sucks.
Why can't I steal from different people in a crowd? Why does "sanct" stop thieves?
If you take away am ability, give us something else, merchants in town, whatever.
I just want it better, not the be all end all to the riches.
Yet you enable enchanting to be much simpler than it was, and again ensorcelling lol, sorcs can hunt and gather better than about anyone, and we can't even profit off their overloaded backpacks omg.
I hope the arrival of the Thief Set is a horn sounding off that rogue's once again are on the radar. It's a great set.
DRUMPEL
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 09:51 AM CST
>I think Step 1 should be renaming it
I agree. It should be something to better to incorporate other things under it. Keep the ability to pick pockets, but add other things that the skill can do. Such as:
Use trap components in combat
Use/apply poisons to weapons (much like how a wizard can cast minor edge) - allow a rogue to mix a poison (I suppose tie it with Alchemy...even though I hate the tedious, boredom, hair pulling, irritation that Alchemy is) and apply it. The better trained, the longer the poison will last and a slight bump in potency as the skill increases.
Create and set traps from trap components - only to be triggered by creatures. You place a trap or two in your hunting area and as creatures gen/wander they can trigger the trap.
As for picking pockets, it shouldn't just be a quick grab and you're on your way. There should be a bit more to it. Each attempt to steal in a short amount of time will increase your time on marks and will slowly start to draw attention to you if you constantly do it over and over again. It takes a few seconds to size up your target and steal from them. When you attempt to steal from them, you'd have to actually brush up against them with a few outcomes (these are what the thief sees - in game messaging). :
1) you brush past your target and they're none the wiser as you slip a gem from their pouch into yours
2) you brush past your target, but bump them a bit harder than you wanted and you only get some coins - the person is on alert now and very hard to steal from again for X amount of time
3) you misjudge your intersection with your target and jostle them really hard, you get nothing and the room is alerted to the interaction, though no one knows you're a thief. They just know you had a small collision with someone and eyes are on you more than before
This is when the room/person/mark is alerted:
4) you get caught off balance and stumble horribly while trying to pull off a pickpocket. The target/mark sees you trying to steal (nothing is taken) and calls you out automatically (game mechanic kicks in to alert the room of a possible pick pocket attempt - so if a target is AFK, they can't just keep getting stolen from without repercussions to the thief). This gives the thief a time to retreat - anyone that was in the room is given a buff against pickpocket from said thief for X amount of time. The thief doesn't know the time amount on the people, so if he tries again while that timer is going, he's more than likely to be caught and at this point the thief can be reported for his crime to the local law.
Do away with a quick grab. Make the rewards slightly better (higher quality gem is the most likely pull, followed by other small items and finally coins). I haven't actually used PP in a long time, but I think the last mark has a CD of sometime before you can steal from them again. This should be removed and chance to induce RT for MARKing your target and then STEALing from them. Each successful or unsuccessful STEAL attempt builds up against the thief.
Only people that are aware of the thief (see him fumble/fail) can ACCUSE the thief if the thief tries to steal from that person and is caught/fumbles again. When a thief fails/fumbles, anyone that is made aware of them and their mischievous actions get a timer against that thief - they're more alert towards that thief and watch them closely, but the thief has no idea who may be aware of their failure/fumble, nor how long the timer lasts.
-Drumpel
I agree. It should be something to better to incorporate other things under it. Keep the ability to pick pockets, but add other things that the skill can do. Such as:
Use trap components in combat
Use/apply poisons to weapons (much like how a wizard can cast minor edge) - allow a rogue to mix a poison (I suppose tie it with Alchemy...even though I hate the tedious, boredom, hair pulling, irritation that Alchemy is) and apply it. The better trained, the longer the poison will last and a slight bump in potency as the skill increases.
Create and set traps from trap components - only to be triggered by creatures. You place a trap or two in your hunting area and as creatures gen/wander they can trigger the trap.
As for picking pockets, it shouldn't just be a quick grab and you're on your way. There should be a bit more to it. Each attempt to steal in a short amount of time will increase your time on marks and will slowly start to draw attention to you if you constantly do it over and over again. It takes a few seconds to size up your target and steal from them. When you attempt to steal from them, you'd have to actually brush up against them with a few outcomes (these are what the thief sees - in game messaging). :
1) you brush past your target and they're none the wiser as you slip a gem from their pouch into yours
2) you brush past your target, but bump them a bit harder than you wanted and you only get some coins - the person is on alert now and very hard to steal from again for X amount of time
3) you misjudge your intersection with your target and jostle them really hard, you get nothing and the room is alerted to the interaction, though no one knows you're a thief. They just know you had a small collision with someone and eyes are on you more than before
This is when the room/person/mark is alerted:
4) you get caught off balance and stumble horribly while trying to pull off a pickpocket. The target/mark sees you trying to steal (nothing is taken) and calls you out automatically (game mechanic kicks in to alert the room of a possible pick pocket attempt - so if a target is AFK, they can't just keep getting stolen from without repercussions to the thief). This gives the thief a time to retreat - anyone that was in the room is given a buff against pickpocket from said thief for X amount of time. The thief doesn't know the time amount on the people, so if he tries again while that timer is going, he's more than likely to be caught and at this point the thief can be reported for his crime to the local law.
| [Town Square Central] |
| This is the heart of the main square of Wehnimer's Landing. The impromptu shops of the bazaar are clustered around this central gathering place, where townsfolk, travellers, and adventurers meet to talk, conspire or raise expeditions to the far-flung reaches of Elanith. At the north end of the space, an old well, with moss-covered stones and a craggy roof, is shaded by a strong, robust tree. The oak is tall and straight, and it is apparent that the roots run deep. You also see the red Onmack disk, a handful of wilted flower petals, the Adustusi disk, the Ylandra disk, a mirthful luck spirit that is flying around, a rock crystal, some wolifrew lichen, some wolifrew lichen, a mistwood serving cart with some stuff on it, some stone benches with some stuff on it and an herbal remedy donation bin. |
| Also here: Scrappy Lad, Lord Mack Truck who is sitting, Lord Audio Wailer who is kneeling, Lord KlapOnKlapOff who is sitting, YourGrandma, Great Lady Quentin-tarantino who is kneeling, AdolfHitMeInTheFace who is kneeling, Tiger-Eye, Xylophone |
| Obvious paths: northeast, east, southeast, southwest, west, northwest |
| >MARK YourGrandma |
| You size up your mark and determine you would have a decent chance to lighten their purse... |
| RoundTime: 3 seconds |
| >STEAL YourGrandma |
| You go in stride with YourGrandma and determine the best path of intercepting... |
| RoundTime: 3 seconds |
| With great ease you brush past YourGrandma without her noticing. You slip the uncut diamond into your pouch without drawing attention to yourself. |
| Xylophone moves east. |
| >MARK Tiger-Eye |
| You size up your mark and determine you would have a pretty decent chance to lighten their purse... |
| RoundTime: 5 seconds |
| >STEAL Tiger-Eye |
| You go in stride with Tiger-Eye and determine the best path of intercepting... |
| RoundTime: 3 seconds |
| Tiger-Eye suddenly stops before you can deftly make your move and you abruptly bump into Tiger-Eye. The hard jostle gives you a chance to dip into their purse and pocket 238 silver. |
| (what Tiger-Eye would see) |
| >You notice RandomGuy had bumped awkwardly into you...you can't seem to shake the feeling that RandomGuy may be a handsy person and you'll want try and keep your distance from them. |
| Tiger-Eye goes west. |
| >MARK KlapOnKlapOff |
| You size up your mark and determine chances are in your favor to lighten their purse... |
| RoundTime: 7 seconds |
| >STEAL KlapOnKlapOff |
| You saunter by KlapOnKlapOff and act as if you dropped something on the ground near them. As you bend down to retrieve your dropped item... |
| RoundTime 3 seconds: |
| You go unnoticed as you brush up against KlapOnKlapOff. You slip the small pink pearl into your pouch without anyone noticing. |
| Lord Audio Wailer stands up. |
| Lord Audio Wailer moves west. |
| Lord Rampage stumbles in. |
| Lord Rampage asks, "Any empaths for some healing?" |
| >MARK Rampage |
| You size up your mark and determine your odds look pretty good to lighten the pockets of your mark. |
| RoundTime: 9 seconds |
| Great Lady Quentin-tarantino looks at Lord Rampage and shakes her head. |
| Great Lady Quentin-tarantino says, "Sorry, no healers on duty right now." |
| Lord Rampage nods to Great Lady Quentin-tarantino. |
| Lord Rampage says, "Thank you." |
| Lord Rampage goes northwest. |
| >sigh |
| You sigh. |
| >MARK Quentin-tarantino |
| ...roundtime 3 seconds |
| >whistle |
| You whistle. |
| >MARK Quentin-tarantino |
| You size up your mark and determine you should be able to lift something valuable without much difficulty. |
| RoundTime: 9 seconds |
| Lord Mack Truck stands up. |
| Lord Mack Truck asks, "Anyone spare a look or dims?" |
| >STEAL Quentin-tarantion |
| You casually make your way past Quentin-tarantion, deciding on the best angle and time to make your move. |
| RoundTime: 3 seconds |
| Great Lady Quentin-tarantino shifts at the last moment and you clumsily stumble over her, almost falling down in the process. You come up empty handed and take notice of accusation tossed in your direction. |
| Great Lady Quentin-tarantino exclaims, "RandomGuy! I saw that! Keep your hands out of my coin purse!" |
| (what Great Lady Quentin-tarantino sees) |
| RandomGuy ran into you so hard you were almost knocked over. You can't help but feel RandomGuy's intentions are not in your best interest and you call him out on it... |
| (what the rest of the people in the room see) |
| RandomGuy appears to have blatantly run into Great Lady Quentin-tarantino. His intentions appear mischievous at best and are confirmed by the accusation thrown in RandomGuy's direction... |
Do away with a quick grab. Make the rewards slightly better (higher quality gem is the most likely pull, followed by other small items and finally coins). I haven't actually used PP in a long time, but I think the last mark has a CD of sometime before you can steal from them again. This should be removed and chance to induce RT for MARKing your target and then STEALing from them. Each successful or unsuccessful STEAL attempt builds up against the thief.
Only people that are aware of the thief (see him fumble/fail) can ACCUSE the thief if the thief tries to steal from that person and is caught/fumbles again. When a thief fails/fumbles, anyone that is made aware of them and their mischievous actions get a timer against that thief - they're more alert towards that thief and watch them closely, but the thief has no idea who may be aware of their failure/fumble, nor how long the timer lasts.
-Drumpel
VEYTHORNE
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 09:59 AM CST
I'd like to understand your position a little better.
As far as I know, you can currently steal from different people in a crowd, what do you feel is lacking in your ability to steal?
You mention enchanting and ensorcelling in your complaint, are you looking for the pickpocket skill to enable you to make millions of silvers like those abilities?
What part of stealing is not fun for you?
If you are allowed to steal in a sanctuary, what steps would you like to see people have available to avoid being stolen from?
PFLATS
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 10:35 AM CST
>You mention enchanting and ensorcelling in your complaint, are you looking for the pickpocket skill to enable you to make millions of silvers like those abilities?
Why shouldn't it?
A high-level wizard/sorcerer can enchant/ensorcell most items without spending a single TP outside of their normal combat build. You're probably already training those ancillary skills for runestaff defense. Clerics and empaths are.
Meanwhile, pickpocketing is a separate skill that does literally one thing: lets you pick another character's pockets (okay, and defend better against getting thieved).
If a sorcerer spent 303 TPs purely to boost their ensorcelling, they'd be able to command an even higher price per necroweek. They'd probably make more money in 1, maybe 2 casts from those TPs than the rogue would from a year of stealing. And players would be happy to give it to them.
Why shouldn't it?
A high-level wizard/sorcerer can enchant/ensorcell most items without spending a single TP outside of their normal combat build. You're probably already training those ancillary skills for runestaff defense. Clerics and empaths are.
Meanwhile, pickpocketing is a separate skill that does literally one thing: lets you pick another character's pockets (okay, and defend better against getting thieved).
If a sorcerer spent 303 TPs purely to boost their ensorcelling, they'd be able to command an even higher price per necroweek. They'd probably make more money in 1, maybe 2 casts from those TPs than the rogue would from a year of stealing. And players would be happy to give it to them.
KRAKII
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 11:08 AM CST
Every time you change the 'Subject' line, you create a new thread (in the new Board interface; people reading them in numerical order still see them in, you know... numerical order).
.
Now that we have things like Black Swan, and Reim, and especially Duskruin (where multiple people can be doing their thing at once), and the Adventurer Guild (where multiple people can be brought in to work on the same thing), maybe now is a good time to revisit the instanced "crime thing" I'd talked about before.
Basically, depending on <some skills, like Trading [how much is the mark likely to be carrying?] and Perception [is he loaded down with sacks of geld?] and <the renamed Pick Pockets/Thiefly Skillset skill> [<insert Thief stuff>]>, you stand there in the merchant district in town and scan the crowd. [Maneuver roll, roundtime, degree of success/failure]
Once you have a mark picked out--"middle-aged bearded guy in jacket and fur-trimmed tunic with four sacks" would be a higher result than "beardless orphan with patched shirt and ragged pants"--you can follow them <Stalk skill check>, check and see if he has any guards surrounding him <Perception and Thiefly Skillset skill checks>, and so on.
When he gets back to his shop/residence, you can case the joint <Perception and Thiefly Skillset skill checks, roundtime, degree of success/failure] to determine point of entry ("kitchen door from courtyard" less likely to have a strong lock, but it means Climbing <skill check, RT> over something TO the courtyard, versus "side door" may have a stronger lock and even guards) and time of entry (guard schedule) and so on. Plan to return at that time.
Bring in Adventurer Guild style mechanics, you can have other characters be part of your 'gang' to work the break-in, so one is the picker and others are lookouts or ranged folks to take out the guards or whatever. You could also be bruisers and just subdue <CMan skill checks> or kill the guards, but that's more likely to bring the heat/increase guard forces at other jobs, and so on.
If it turns out that the "best time" to break into the guy's place doesn't work for you... sell the lead. Turn it in to the Rogue's GuildMaster NPC, and get "a piece of the action" of the later break-in. Meanwhile, that NPC can now turn that information over to someone inquiring at the correct time.
Eventually you get in, open the office strongbox, steal the <whatever>, take it to the FENCE (NOT the pawnbroker... he's legit) and get only a portion of its value (because it has to be sold out of town), and so on. (Or what you get is 600 pounds of tradebars. What the hell are PCs going to do with 600 pounds of tradebars, even if they are silver or gold?) Heck, maybe this is where all those heirlooms come from that the Adventurer Guild keeps sending folks out to find.
.
The key would be to have the wandering NPCs and the buildings and everything, be instanced, like a Duskruin run. You looking for a mark is what triggers the existence of marks. You following a mark is what triggers the creation of the mark's shop (StealingRoomTemplate#4) or home (StealingRoomTemplate#3); when the 'job' is done, they vanish again.
(These don't need to be "just one room", either, they can be multi-room complexes depending on just how rich the guy is/how busy the business. Bigger & richer & busier, though, means open longer hours/smaller window of opportunity, more guards, tighter schedules & routines on them, tougher locks, and so on.)
.
Now that we have things like Black Swan, and Reim, and especially Duskruin (where multiple people can be doing their thing at once), and the Adventurer Guild (where multiple people can be brought in to work on the same thing), maybe now is a good time to revisit the instanced "crime thing" I'd talked about before.
Basically, depending on <some skills, like Trading [how much is the mark likely to be carrying?] and Perception [is he loaded down with sacks of geld?] and <the renamed Pick Pockets/Thiefly Skillset skill> [<insert Thief stuff>]>, you stand there in the merchant district in town and scan the crowd. [Maneuver roll, roundtime, degree of success/failure]
Once you have a mark picked out--"middle-aged bearded guy in jacket and fur-trimmed tunic with four sacks" would be a higher result than "beardless orphan with patched shirt and ragged pants"--you can follow them <Stalk skill check>, check and see if he has any guards surrounding him <Perception and Thiefly Skillset skill checks>, and so on.
When he gets back to his shop/residence, you can case the joint <Perception and Thiefly Skillset skill checks, roundtime, degree of success/failure] to determine point of entry ("kitchen door from courtyard" less likely to have a strong lock, but it means Climbing <skill check, RT> over something TO the courtyard, versus "side door" may have a stronger lock and even guards) and time of entry (guard schedule) and so on. Plan to return at that time.
Bring in Adventurer Guild style mechanics, you can have other characters be part of your 'gang' to work the break-in, so one is the picker and others are lookouts or ranged folks to take out the guards or whatever. You could also be bruisers and just subdue <CMan skill checks> or kill the guards, but that's more likely to bring the heat/increase guard forces at other jobs, and so on.
If it turns out that the "best time" to break into the guy's place doesn't work for you... sell the lead. Turn it in to the Rogue's GuildMaster NPC, and get "a piece of the action" of the later break-in. Meanwhile, that NPC can now turn that information over to someone inquiring at the correct time.
Eventually you get in, open the office strongbox, steal the <whatever>, take it to the FENCE (NOT the pawnbroker... he's legit) and get only a portion of its value (because it has to be sold out of town), and so on. (Or what you get is 600 pounds of tradebars. What the hell are PCs going to do with 600 pounds of tradebars, even if they are silver or gold?) Heck, maybe this is where all those heirlooms come from that the Adventurer Guild keeps sending folks out to find.
.
The key would be to have the wandering NPCs and the buildings and everything, be instanced, like a Duskruin run. You looking for a mark is what triggers the existence of marks. You following a mark is what triggers the creation of the mark's shop (StealingRoomTemplate#4) or home (StealingRoomTemplate#3); when the 'job' is done, they vanish again.
(These don't need to be "just one room", either, they can be multi-room complexes depending on just how rich the guy is/how busy the business. Bigger & richer & busier, though, means open longer hours/smaller window of opportunity, more guards, tighter schedules & routines on them, tougher locks, and so on.)
DRUMPEL
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 11:54 AM CST
>Bring in Adventurer Guild style mechanics
Hey, you get out of my head....mutters something inaudible and wanders off ( http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Game%20Design%20Discussions/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Game%20Design/view/3390 )
Seriously though, it would be cool to have profession type bounties based on skills and such, perhaps tied to adventurer's guild or as you say "stalk your target" to initiate the instance. We can hope and dream, can't we? We can hope and dream....
-Drumpel
Hey, you get out of my head....mutters something inaudible and wanders off ( http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Game%20Design%20Discussions/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Game%20Design/view/3390 )
Seriously though, it would be cool to have profession type bounties based on skills and such, perhaps tied to adventurer's guild or as you say "stalk your target" to initiate the instance. We can hope and dream, can't we? We can hope and dream....
-Drumpel
KRAKII
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 01:21 PM CST
No offense, Drumpel, but I've been raising the idea off an on since shortly after we deICEd, because I've been saying to remove the Pick Pocket skill since about the same time. :)
We always got told that it was the instancing that was the issue, but that seems to get done in Duskruin's arena combats.
We always got told that it was the instancing that was the issue, but that seems to get done in Duskruin's arena combats.
CRIME
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 02:03 PM CST
Multiple issues at hand. Small scale mechanics and bigger picture evolution.
Screams of Legacy game where pick pocketing doesn't belong remind me of what's wrong intrinsically with expectations of a role playing game.
Frankly, with no more demonic, I would push toward loosening up long standing policies so players would have the freedom to respond anyway they like if provoked. That would very much include response to theft, ETC. The big thing standing in the way of such freedoms is in my mind is item loss mechanics, and such retribution as disarming and or causing issues in areas where you can lose equipment, etc, it is unacceptable. After that, and for the good of the world at large which exist are, abuse, harassment, adult content, etc. It's a tough thing to have done, create a world with sword and spell and not have the entire framework at constant war. /bows to simu and it's patrons. Box people in too much and boredom can take place.
God, you can't chase a thief down and kill them. What a sad thing, and you can't accuse them in a city you might draw the ire of the entire community for arresting people. That's also sad.
So without much ado I suggest keeping the big picture of what people are asking for in mind, and fix the little stuff that can be done right away. Put changes in place to bring back the time honored thiefdom while preventing trolling by those thiefs that would dishonor the guild. There's got to be a good reward mechanic or the skill is dead.
DVDMORSE
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 02:58 PM CST
>yawn, whiners are going to drink whine... kudos to those with perspective
Well, if you can't carry on a discussion without insulting, then I'm not sure there is any point in responding. But as you encourage people to look at what you call the "big picture," thanks for beings for being so willing to see the perspective of others. I'm just glad the GMs have been more able to see the real big picture and take into account the positions of those being stolen from as well.
>>Frankly, with no more demonic, I would push toward loosening up long standing policies so players would have the freedom to respond anyway they like if provoked.
Which accomplishes nothing when you are picking on characters who are lower level than you are.
>>Anyway, let's be clear, were not talking items here, were talking gems, herbs wands, perhaps a gold ring in the day
And when you are picking on lower level characters, those things can matter. Here's a true story: A few years ago I was staring a new empath. This was before the implementation of the harm spell, so the only way he had to hunt effectively with magic was to use a lot of silver, iron, and aquamarine wands which I collected religiously and had in a harness. One night I heard an announcement that there was a merchant in the small park doing alterations, and I was excited at the idea of getting an interesting alter for my new character, so I ran to the park without remembering to close the container. A few minutes later I caught a thief stealing one of my wands. He very quickly gave the wand back, apologized, and ran off--about ten seconds before I realized that the wand he gave back was the very last one. He had stolen all of the other wands I had been hoarding, and he certainly did not volunteer to return those. Again, this was a new character, so I did not have all of the resources in the world to replace the wands. It screwed up my hunting not just for that night but for a couple of days. This kind of thing just does not make the game fun.
>>I most certainly agree that there needs to exist a way to limit bullying, but your stance is rather harsh on a skill that people are asking to revive in a way that would enhance RP.
I'm truly curious. You steal from someone. The person does not know he or she has been stolen from. You get away and keep the items or coins. There is no actual interaction. Please explain to me how that enhances RP.
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
Well, if you can't carry on a discussion without insulting, then I'm not sure there is any point in responding. But as you encourage people to look at what you call the "big picture," thanks for beings for being so willing to see the perspective of others. I'm just glad the GMs have been more able to see the real big picture and take into account the positions of those being stolen from as well.
>>Frankly, with no more demonic, I would push toward loosening up long standing policies so players would have the freedom to respond anyway they like if provoked.
Which accomplishes nothing when you are picking on characters who are lower level than you are.
>>Anyway, let's be clear, were not talking items here, were talking gems, herbs wands, perhaps a gold ring in the day
And when you are picking on lower level characters, those things can matter. Here's a true story: A few years ago I was staring a new empath. This was before the implementation of the harm spell, so the only way he had to hunt effectively with magic was to use a lot of silver, iron, and aquamarine wands which I collected religiously and had in a harness. One night I heard an announcement that there was a merchant in the small park doing alterations, and I was excited at the idea of getting an interesting alter for my new character, so I ran to the park without remembering to close the container. A few minutes later I caught a thief stealing one of my wands. He very quickly gave the wand back, apologized, and ran off--about ten seconds before I realized that the wand he gave back was the very last one. He had stolen all of the other wands I had been hoarding, and he certainly did not volunteer to return those. Again, this was a new character, so I did not have all of the resources in the world to replace the wands. It screwed up my hunting not just for that night but for a couple of days. This kind of thing just does not make the game fun.
>>I most certainly agree that there needs to exist a way to limit bullying, but your stance is rather harsh on a skill that people are asking to revive in a way that would enhance RP.
I'm truly curious. You steal from someone. The person does not know he or she has been stolen from. You get away and keep the items or coins. There is no actual interaction. Please explain to me how that enhances RP.
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
CRIME
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 03:56 PM CST
I didn't insult anyone.
I didn't condone bullying.
I did suggest mechanics that could assist defending everyone.
Read the context properly, and stop accusing.
DVDMORSE
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 04:00 PM CST
>yawn, whiners are going to drink whine...
What exactly would your definition of insulting be?
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
What exactly would your definition of insulting be?
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
GS4-CONTEMPLAR
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 04:09 PM CST
Take a breather guys.
There is merit in this discussion from both sides. Let's not get to flaming each other, ok?
~Contemplar~
There is merit in this discussion from both sides. Let's not get to flaming each other, ok?
~Contemplar~
ROBERTSM8
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 04:21 PM CST
Trying to be as calm as I possibly can, I'm also one of those characters who detests being stolen from. Steal from critters, steal from NPCs/Merchants, sure. Make some other utility out of the skill. But as DVDMORSE pointed out, low level characters suffer the hardest hit. Sure it might "just a diamond", but 5k to a new character isn't anything to sneeze at. I hated it even when custom dictated that thieves did not steal from empaths and clerics (which are the classes I mainly play), because its not fair, its not fun. It is hardly ever roleplayed. Of course that has been pointed out ad nauseum. And folks on the other side aren't going to get that. If your goal (generic 'You', anyone who trains in picking pockets) is to increase the roleplay, where's the harm in allowing those who do NOT enjoy that concept of roleplay to opt out? That way if you find someone to RP with that likes getting their pockets cleaned out, have at it. Otherwise I don't see the logic in saying its ok to force your idea of Roleplay on another character. We have befriend cold to prevent most unwanted interactions, interact warn for more serious offenses. I don't get the opposition to allowing people to opt out of pickpocketing other than it reduces your "income" from stealing.
CRIME
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 05:02 PM CST
Robertson the perks of being high level should not be undermined by the low.
That said, let's say a high l level character spotted a low being pick pocketed and had them arrested! What fun!
A rogue might think twice about their actions.
I suggested a mechanic like this and it should not be discounted. You could also keep your bags closed...
CRIME
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 05:09 PM CST
Apparently not. I get accused of being insulting for a generalization.
Might as well call a spade a spade.
GS4-IXIX
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 06:09 PM CST
We do have a moderator. Please don't use terms like whiner or similar things, everybody is welcome to discuss this and I'm interested in everybody's opinion. I'm just as interested in the thoughts of those that don't like theft in the game as everybody else - I want it to be something that we can point at as a great part of GemStone that gives it depth and quality.
This is a contentious topic, but we need to talk about the game, the pickpocketing system, and ideas about those things, not other players or what we think of them (you're all great).
Ixix
This is a contentious topic, but we need to talk about the game, the pickpocketing system, and ideas about those things, not other players or what we think of them (you're all great).
Ixix
UMBDAY
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 06:23 PM CST
I've never seen a thief actually roleplay once being caught. They either immediately run and hide, slam or instigate a CvC/PvP duel. The first I guess could be considered roleplay but I am not sure how it is satisfying for anyone. I'm all for getting rid of the skill or only making it work on town npcs.
GS4-IXIX
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 06:32 PM CST
I'm not doubting your experiences, but mine have been different, and I know that it can and has been a great part of RP in the game before. At the same time I understand that some people don't want to participate in the pickpocketing part of the game - I'd like to try to accommodate them in a good way, but also improve the system so that they do want to participate in it in some fashion.
Ixix
Ixix
LUNATUNES
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 08:47 PM CST
Pickpockets seem so rare that I have caught very few sticky fingers in my pockets from people with whom I didn't already have an RP relationship, but I will say that I cannot actually remember a thief who didn't RP out the interaction with me. In fact, the most recent attempted cutpurse made me laugh out loud by giving me back more than was stolen and IC whispering to me that it was hush money. I still smile when I think about it and I'd be sad if it were made impossible.
The theme of pickpocketing in fantasy fiction also makes me a bit loathe the want to see the skill removed-- it's kind of part of the genre! If anything I would like to see it expanded into other stealthy/dexterity-based skill checks. Someone posted earlier that it's one of those low-rewared skills because it does just one thing and I definitely agree there. What else could cutpurses do with their quick fingers?
-bonus to disarm traps and scarab disarm seems like a no-brainer
-bonus to magic item use? Maybe, they could be seen as a little fiddly
-steal verb expanded somehow to be used in our late storyline renaissance? We don't need to kill the GM NPC to loot his corpse for a crucial evidence parchment, maybe sufficiently skilled purloiners in the crowd would see a message that they see an interesting paper sticking temptingly out of Kenstrom's pocket.
- [ your ideas here... ]
I also liked the idea posted earlier that leaned toward improving the mechanics behind pickpocketing to bring it up to current standards in terms of messaging and process-based endeavors.
/seo, wheels and skulls department/
The theme of pickpocketing in fantasy fiction also makes me a bit loathe the want to see the skill removed-- it's kind of part of the genre! If anything I would like to see it expanded into other stealthy/dexterity-based skill checks. Someone posted earlier that it's one of those low-rewared skills because it does just one thing and I definitely agree there. What else could cutpurses do with their quick fingers?
-bonus to disarm traps and scarab disarm seems like a no-brainer
-bonus to magic item use? Maybe, they could be seen as a little fiddly
-steal verb expanded somehow to be used in our late storyline renaissance? We don't need to kill the GM NPC to loot his corpse for a crucial evidence parchment, maybe sufficiently skilled purloiners in the crowd would see a message that they see an interesting paper sticking temptingly out of Kenstrom's pocket.
- [ your ideas here... ]
I also liked the idea posted earlier that leaned toward improving the mechanics behind pickpocketing to bring it up to current standards in terms of messaging and process-based endeavors.
/seo, wheels and skulls department/
VANKRASN39
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 09:16 PM CST
I'd like to see LM traps reduced in weight to that of a gem.
GS4-AULIS
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 09:55 PM CST
<<I'd like to see LM traps reduced in weight to that of a gem.
I very much like this idea, myself. But alas I have no weight in the matter.
~Aulis
Forums Manager
QC'er
I very much like this idea, myself. But alas I have no weight in the matter.
~Aulis
Forums Manager
QC'er
OM1E5GA
Re: Pickpocketing
12/27/2016 09:59 PM CST
<Stealing from critters is a common request, but you were probably going to kill it and loot its corpse anyway, so that doesn't make a ton of sense to me.>
Not always. There are plenty of critters that have roamed in areas my rogue hunts that are just a nuisance because, for one reason or another, it's impractical or impossible for him to kill them (they're immune to punctures, undead, etc). But I do have some ideas that would make it make more sense regardless of if the rogue later killed the critter:
-Make the loot separate instances for STEAL and LOOT/SEARCH
-Add a guild task similar to heirloom tasks where the character is tasked to STEAL a specific item from a specific critter and fails the task if they kill one while the task is active.
-Heck, let folk STEAL heirlooms from critters when they're on that task. I would have loved to do this when Alanna was constantly trying to send my rogue against undead cause messing with blessed arrows was more of a pain then just waiting for a new task.
-Let us reverse pickpocket items onto critters to give us an advantage. Some of the trap components we can already remove would be GREAT for this with a few changes to them.
-Let those trained in PP get exp for STEALing from critters (or other NPCs), but make their mind drop all the way to clear as a bell without absorbing any exp if they kill a critter they stole from
I'm not going to bother with saying anything more about CvC pickpocketing, I know from the past and the present folk are just going to see what they want to see in my posts when it comes to that, regardless of what I'm actually saying. Besides, I really don't care if that part of the skill goes away so long as we get something that makes it fun again in it's place.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Not always. There are plenty of critters that have roamed in areas my rogue hunts that are just a nuisance because, for one reason or another, it's impractical or impossible for him to kill them (they're immune to punctures, undead, etc). But I do have some ideas that would make it make more sense regardless of if the rogue later killed the critter:
-Make the loot separate instances for STEAL and LOOT/SEARCH
-Add a guild task similar to heirloom tasks where the character is tasked to STEAL a specific item from a specific critter and fails the task if they kill one while the task is active.
-Heck, let folk STEAL heirlooms from critters when they're on that task. I would have loved to do this when Alanna was constantly trying to send my rogue against undead cause messing with blessed arrows was more of a pain then just waiting for a new task.
-Let us reverse pickpocket items onto critters to give us an advantage. Some of the trap components we can already remove would be GREAT for this with a few changes to them.
-Let those trained in PP get exp for STEALing from critters (or other NPCs), but make their mind drop all the way to clear as a bell without absorbing any exp if they kill a critter they stole from
I'm not going to bother with saying anything more about CvC pickpocketing, I know from the past and the present folk are just going to see what they want to see in my posts when it comes to that, regardless of what I'm actually saying. Besides, I really don't care if that part of the skill goes away so long as we get something that makes it fun again in it's place.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
RATHBONER
Re: Pickpocketing
12/28/2016 05:46 AM CST
>I've never seen a thief actually roleplay once being caught. They either immediately run and hide, slam or instigate a CvC/PvP duel. The first I guess could be considered roleplay but I am not sure how it is satisfying for anyone. I'm all for getting rid of the skill or only making it work on town npcs.
10 years ago it happened a lot. I liked the edge that it gave to RP areas. But since RP areas become permasancted it doesn't. I think I've seen one thief in the past 5 years, and that was a zero RP type with a slave MA empath to bias the mechanics in his favor. I didn't even bother to amputate him because it would just have been giving exp to the slave.
>-Let us reverse pickpocket items onto critters to give us an advantage. Some of the trap components we can already remove would be GREAT for this with a few changes to them.
Characters too. Hey that's my ring you've got in your pocketsses!
>The theme of pickpocketing in fantasy fiction also makes me a bit loathe the want to see the skill removed-- it's kind of part of the genre!
I hardly ever see it happen these days and I miss it. The game is blander and less interesting for there being no one interested in larcenous RP.
10 years ago it happened a lot. I liked the edge that it gave to RP areas. But since RP areas become permasancted it doesn't. I think I've seen one thief in the past 5 years, and that was a zero RP type with a slave MA empath to bias the mechanics in his favor. I didn't even bother to amputate him because it would just have been giving exp to the slave.
>-Let us reverse pickpocket items onto critters to give us an advantage. Some of the trap components we can already remove would be GREAT for this with a few changes to them.
Characters too. Hey that's my ring you've got in your pocketsses!
>The theme of pickpocketing in fantasy fiction also makes me a bit loathe the want to see the skill removed-- it's kind of part of the genre!
I hardly ever see it happen these days and I miss it. The game is blander and less interesting for there being no one interested in larcenous RP.
CAMPBELLS
Re: Pickpocketing
12/28/2016 06:19 AM CST
There is a street in the landing named after a rogue named Valeria who was known for pick pocketing and role play if she were ever caught. Aurien told me she would set out and make pass through all the hunting grounds and all the while stealing once and only once from each mark. If she were caught she would role play out that encounter. Most marks would not even know she wa ever there nor would they miss the coins.
GM Ildran mentioned implementing a NPC pick pocketing system several years ago. If memory serves that idea was pushed back if favor of improving hiding mechanics. I would very much like to see that idea explored again.
Wolfloner's player
Steve
GM Ildran mentioned implementing a NPC pick pocketing system several years ago. If memory serves that idea was pushed back if favor of improving hiding mechanics. I would very much like to see that idea explored again.
Wolfloner's player
Steve
CRIME
Re: Pickpocketing
12/28/2016 07:33 AM CST
While I'd prefer to see some quick fixes and bigger vision...
I'm a greedy rogue, how about experience for successful pick pocket lol. Nobody would ever leave a Sanct. Perma sancted area are so care bear :(
Back to being serious, I really don't understand the policy that was put in place, the over arching mechanics that rule the mindset of the day lack that edge that people speak of. I seem to recall a day where the edge was embraced.
How can one return the edge without enabling the spoilers. Such a tricky challenge.
I for one believe simutronics has been introducing challenge again, and I believe it is within their creative genius to fix their rogue class, and this is really the broader topic at hand.
GS4-CONTEMPLAR
Re: Pickpocketing
12/28/2016 08:17 AM CST
>While I'd prefer to see some quick fixes and bigger vision...
>I'm a greedy rogue, how about experience for successful pick pocket lol. Nobody would ever leave a Sanct. Perma sancted area are so care bear :(
>Back to being serious, I really don't understand the policy that was put in place, the over arching mechanics that rule the mindset of the day lack that edge that people speak of. I seem to recall a day where the edge was embraced.
>How can one return the edge without enabling the spoilers. Such a tricky challenge.
>I for one believe simutronics has been introducing challenge again, and I believe it is within their creative genius to fix their rogue class, and this is really the broader topic at hand.
Please keep in mind that Pick Pockets is a universal skill available to all professions, just like any other skill. This isn't just a rogue only ability. Imagine the wizard, or empath sitting next to you having the ability to steal as well. Obviously, rogues would be the best at that, but...
The issue with Pick Pockets is the forced interaction with other players who may not enjoy that kind of RP environment. Nothing wrong with that. Many people do not like thieves, me included. The trouble with stealing from players is that it is pretty much a one-sided affair, all in favor of the thief. Yes, people can role-play it out to get items back, but quite often it just causes undo grief to those who do not appreciate such confrontations. Or worse, no RP action is possible because if the thief is successful, they are the only ones who know. The victim most likely will never know, or hardly notice a missing gem, or a hand full of silvers.
I like the suggestions of a PvE system to use that skill. Stealing from creatures, and various NPCs? Yes. From players? No.
Please keep in mind the above is not an official stance on the state of Pick Pockets and is only my opinion on what has been discussed up until now.
~Contemplar~
>I'm a greedy rogue, how about experience for successful pick pocket lol. Nobody would ever leave a Sanct. Perma sancted area are so care bear :(
>Back to being serious, I really don't understand the policy that was put in place, the over arching mechanics that rule the mindset of the day lack that edge that people speak of. I seem to recall a day where the edge was embraced.
>How can one return the edge without enabling the spoilers. Such a tricky challenge.
>I for one believe simutronics has been introducing challenge again, and I believe it is within their creative genius to fix their rogue class, and this is really the broader topic at hand.
Please keep in mind that Pick Pockets is a universal skill available to all professions, just like any other skill. This isn't just a rogue only ability. Imagine the wizard, or empath sitting next to you having the ability to steal as well. Obviously, rogues would be the best at that, but...
The issue with Pick Pockets is the forced interaction with other players who may not enjoy that kind of RP environment. Nothing wrong with that. Many people do not like thieves, me included. The trouble with stealing from players is that it is pretty much a one-sided affair, all in favor of the thief. Yes, people can role-play it out to get items back, but quite often it just causes undo grief to those who do not appreciate such confrontations. Or worse, no RP action is possible because if the thief is successful, they are the only ones who know. The victim most likely will never know, or hardly notice a missing gem, or a hand full of silvers.
I like the suggestions of a PvE system to use that skill. Stealing from creatures, and various NPCs? Yes. From players? No.
Please keep in mind the above is not an official stance on the state of Pick Pockets and is only my opinion on what has been discussed up until now.
~Contemplar~
MENOS
Re: Pickpocketing
12/28/2016 08:37 AM CST
Picking pockets involves doing things the other guy doesn't notice. I think it should add into hiding/ambush attack resolutions as a secondary skill. That would certainly boost the overall advantages for training in the skill.
Some of the Bethesda games let you use pickpocketing offensively on creatures. You could plant a poisoned needle or trap component sphere on them. When they next move to attack, they get stuck or simply explode.
Just some ideas.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
Some of the Bethesda games let you use pickpocketing offensively on creatures. You could plant a poisoned needle or trap component sphere on them. When they next move to attack, they get stuck or simply explode.
Just some ideas.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
PFLATS
Re: Pickpocketing
12/28/2016 08:52 AM CST
All this talk about reverse pickpocketing traps onto critters and stealing items from critters instead of killing them sounds fun and cool.
And then most players will use it about 3 times before going back to killing things the optimal way, while one or two uses it regularly.
See also:
Cutthroat
Crowd Press
Dirt Kick
Duck and Weave
Dust Shroud
Garrote
Haymaker
Headbutt
Mighty Blow
Side-by-Side
Spell Cleave
Spell Thieve
Spin Attack
Staggering Blow (except as a prereq)
Sweep
Tackle
TRIP, the verb
Trip, the CMAN
Twin Hammerfist
Not to mention many spells, shield maneuvers, armor specs, etc.
If dev time is going to go towards re-doing Pickpocketing (which I'm not sure should be a priority) I'd like it to result in something that would be regularly used by a wide playerbase.
>make their mind drop all the way to clear as a bell without absorbing any exp
That is horribly punitive. Worse than death for many players. At least if you die, you can get a chrism.
And then most players will use it about 3 times before going back to killing things the optimal way, while one or two uses it regularly.
See also:
Cutthroat
Crowd Press
Dirt Kick
Duck and Weave
Dust Shroud
Garrote
Haymaker
Headbutt
Mighty Blow
Side-by-Side
Spell Cleave
Spell Thieve
Spin Attack
Staggering Blow (except as a prereq)
Sweep
Tackle
TRIP, the verb
Trip, the CMAN
Twin Hammerfist
Not to mention many spells, shield maneuvers, armor specs, etc.
If dev time is going to go towards re-doing Pickpocketing (which I'm not sure should be a priority) I'd like it to result in something that would be regularly used by a wide playerbase.
>make their mind drop all the way to clear as a bell without absorbing any exp
That is horribly punitive. Worse than death for many players. At least if you die, you can get a chrism.
UMBDAY
Re: Pickpocketing
12/28/2016 09:34 AM CST
A couple players have said they enjoyed the rp of being pickpocketed from. I would be curious if there was a flag, if those turning on the flag so people could steal from them would be higher than 10%. I could just be biased and maybe most people would turn the flag on but I doubt it. I get the thieves are all cool with stealing from other characters.
CRIME
Re: Pickpocketing
12/28/2016 10:11 AM CST
It is an interactive world.
What a dull place it would be if we had to interact in only the way we allowed interactions.
Some peoples very presence offends!
I'm glad it's been pointed out that it is not a rogue only skill. Something I mentioned earlier, I know wizards with more skill than rogues.
Yet the nerf affected the rogue most directly and purposefully. That is why the "teef" class needs a rethink with this perspective. Clearly lockpocking's unbalance is just icing on the cake. To be able to pick well you must sacrifice a lot now.
