Great, now we can't even get nerfs approved? (HA HA)

I'm kind of over getting "something else" as a WM. If my choice is 'nothing' vs. 'something else'... I'll take the nothing. The guild is in such desperate need of depth... it has one of the broadest toolsets in the game and seems to have paid for it in having the shallowest tools.

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"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl

Well, there are only so many ways to go nuclear, so I can't imagine the Blackfire spell book would have much... diversity.

Losing a spell slot on sight and that's not all? Honestly, good riddance.

There is a ton of stuff out there for WMs that would add much more depth than Blackfire. The handful of things I saw today in Muspar'i alone suggests that either our currently array of spells is just barely scratching the surface of elemental potential, or WM lore is utterly piecemeal and lacking any sort of cohesion.

I choose to believe the former until proven otherwise.


Avaya <--Not female.
(But supportive)
Gnome WM of TF
AIM: AvayaTF

>>Give us a main course before you think up new side dishes.

They already have a main course; a couple, in fact, though the appeal of the dishes has simply been lost in the various awesome changes to other guilds and system rewrites.

My experience with magic 3.0 is limited to heresy, but the general impression so far seems to be that magic 3.0 does a great job of once again establishing two tiers of attack magic:

1) Warrior Mages
2) Everyone else

---

Right now the Moon Mage place on the "combat pet totem pole" is the part that's sunk into the earth to lower the pole's center of gravity.
-Armifer de Dragonrealms

not sure what i think about it..
on one hand we won't have 80%+of the guild wielding or wanting to have blackfire, on the other it seems to be reduced to novelty level outside of some gmpc wielding it.

seems the +5 route is our best bet..
i'd all be for blackfire does +5 damage and colors your fire spells black, just have the rp roll with it...
or removal from grimoire, not being allowed in guildhall for a bit as punishment
or maybe needing extra requirments to circle or a quest to allow circling(maybe an evilish wm npc)

maybe some day a we'll have a familiar alterer arrive on a spirit dragon and they'll teach us the secrets of blackfire and fix our broken spells..


_____________________________________

Tekemi exclaims, "It's practically a smorgasbord out here!"
Tekemi says to Tokomi, "You're the prime rib, of course."

This is definitely not in the league of being 5th-pasaged, and it's nothing new- I'm not objective at all, here, after 10 years of WM development cancellations I'm bitter. "This again?" is my most mature reaction and that's not very mature at all.

But... WM lore is utterly piecemeal and lacking any sort of cohesion, what there is having been created in the early days when cohesion wasn't a priority or something. The largest most, coherent chunk of it is Blackfire - so it has a lot of promise to flesh out surrounding aspects of the guild just because it touches almost the entirety of the existent lore. We're desperate for things that tie it together and expand on what's there - not extraneous new pieces.

I do think a War Mage is the best character to play the video game. But that's about as far as I can recommend it to anyone.

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"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl

>>Why, if players can be entrusted with the authority of the Inquisition and the provincial Courts, can they not be equally trusted with blackfire?

The players that want Blackfire spells sit around outside of town pouting and using flashpoint on little stick figure skinny elf moon mages and mud temples they put together. That's why you can't get real Blackfire.

FWIW, I really wouldn't want a Sorcery system that only one or two hard-core Sorcery-enthusiast RPers would be willing to touch because the disadvantages are so harsh. That's what Wythor's original proposal sounded like. While it would have been nice if Blackfire, which is already in the lore, got expanded on, I'll feel more satisfied with something entirely new that more players (ie: me) can actually use.

- Mazrian

The Flying Company

The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en

>We'd like widely usable sorcery to explore stranger areas of more high wizardry instead of be 'awesomer death bolt'.

This sounds really neat to me. Hopefully with Magic 3.0 making tiers less important for TM spells, we can focus a little more on some other things like this. I can agree with the reasoning for not developing Blackfire. My only concern is that having scrapped that, where do we start on a new one? Is there a proposed sorcery system for us that we could get a brief glimpse at? If not, what kind of things might be available with elemental sorcery?


Elemental Lord Opieus, Expert Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer

>>so why'd we find this out from a post linking to the necro boards? and y'know not here?

That's where the conversation was.

>>I'm also disappointed with this, even though i can see where the GMs are coming from. Make it up to us by selling incinerate scrolls at a store somewhere please.

Your statement contradicts itself. If you can see where we're coming from, you know that Incinerate isn't going to become any more available than it already is.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

<<This isn't a "RP" decision at all: it is a matter of we can no longer take the pound of flesh that giving you instant-kill spells requires.

<<So the choice is to either not give you Blackfire, or bastardize Blackfire so that it is no longer what it ever was in the fiction

From what I remember, Incinerate is no longer an insta-kill spell as it is. I tested it out on the Test server quite a while back but I can't really clearly recall if this was before or after the downtweak to the spell.

At first I thought Mord was joking about selling those scrolls in a store but on second thought...

---

Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

I actually spent quite a bit of time reading Lore (Magic Textbooks) a few months ago to better understand some of my "Why is this like this?" questions. I want to clear up some misconceptions.

Claim: There is a ton of lore for Blackfire.
Truth: The single largest section of text is is in "The History of the Warrior Mage Guild Volume I". This is 1/10th of the sections of the book. Outside of that there are a few lines mentioning Blackfire here and there but it is hardly a ton of lore. If I am missing an entire book or two, please let me know. I'm actually intellectually starved for the what, how and where of black fire, and would appreciate additional info.

Claim: Scrolls could be sold in stores.
Truth: I don't know a single instance of sorcery sold in shops. (But again, could be wrong)

Claim: "Blackfire is a +5 damage mod!" would be OK.
Truth: Blackfire eats everything. EVERYTHING. The target and the earth the target is on, both are consumed. I imagine there would have to be a release mechanism in the spell, least it eat its way to the world dragon and really piss it off. Incinerate is a horribly weakened version of what the little bit of lore that is there says should exist. My frequent jokes about a Blackfire Rain would be like a GM hitting delete in a room.
It is an Elemental-Holy spell. It is with in the realm of my imagination that it would eat spirit and favors too.

Now for a bit of poking fun at peoples over reactions (If you feel my jokes are too hard on you, and you are writing your reply with tears in your eyes, I'll meet you in Warrior Mage - Conflicts):

>>If my choice is 'nothing' vs. 'something else'... I'll take the nothing.
If that is your choice, when you get to choose new spells @ Magic 3.0, don't.

>>[I can't imagine the] Blackfire spell book would have much... diversity.
I can:
Tier 1 - Flashpoint
Tier 2 - Destroy Person
Tier 3 - Destroy everything at Melee
Tier 4 - Destroy room
Tier 5 - We didn't need Shard anyways

>>My experience with magic 3.0 is limited to heresy, but the general impression so far seems to be that magic 3.0 does a great job of once again establishing two tiers of attack magic:
>>1) Warrior Mages
>>2) Everyone else
Actually, I'm pretty sure Bards get the best attack magic, followed by traders.

>>>>so why'd we find this out from a post linking to the necro boards? and y'know not here?
>>That's where the conversation was.
I'd like to see changes like this proactively mentioned to us here. Perhaps the following could have been posted here when the decision was made:

Blackfire will not be permanently learnable with Magic 3.0. We have opted for an alternative book that will maximize usability, allow for greater lore expansion, and not destroy the world. Blackfire will still exist, in some form or another, but the focus of the magic team will be on alternative books that will provide the best over all player experience.

Blackfire IS a big deal to many war mages. It is the ultimate power that strikes down your enemies. You GMs even decided to keep it (mostly) out of our hands so that we could not sully its epicness. I'm cool with this decision, I don't even need another word of explanation. I'd just like you all to consider that people will need to cry about it for +20 posts regardless, and telling us up front in our folders would have been a great courtesy.
The only other thing I'm truly expecting (some time around "soon"), that I would appreciate if the current design team could tell us if it is off the table, is combat familiars.

Thank you all for your time, thought and efforts. I do believe that the GMs collectively care about all guilds equally and that you all want to make sure this game remains a fun and memorable experience.

Combat familiars in the sense of, "Go for the eyes, Boo, GO FOR THE EYES!"? My opinion is that while there's certainly enough room to have some fun with some low-grade combat fam attacks, I do not see it becoming a substantial Thing, unless we radically redesign Warrior Mage abilities around producing a major part of their damage by proxy.

I am going to regret the thread this will cause, but I'll try the whole honesty thing: Warrior Mages do not need to be doing more damage; Warrior Mages need to be doing less damage, but have a greater stake in things that are not doing damage. I've let this stew for years now: are we finally ready to move Warrior Mages beyond "blow stuff up" as its one and only focus?

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

>>I'd love to move beyond 'blow stuff up' but that seems to be what we're good at, and it's in the lore too, unless there's a relevant way to save the crops, purify water(remember that?), or lodestone whatever...

This the problem. Warrior Mages have been locked, by design and intent, into "the people that do a lot of damage." In a strange way, the Warrior Mages are on the meta level a Barbarian Guild that remained honest.

I have never been willing or able to allow growth beyond the niche while retaining the depth of the niche, and that is the flaw. Warrior Mages will not be saved by simply piling on more stuff, but by an Empath Guild level redefinition of what it means to play a Warrior Mage.

Or we keep the status quo, and Warrior Mage development will remain locked in the prison of its own design.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

>>Depth of that damage niche? I think you have come dangerously unhinged.

You need to take a step back and come to a decision very quickly on how much you wish to be a part of this conversation.

Insult aside, my use of the term depth of the damage niche refers to the size of the number.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

>>Truth: I don't know a single instance of sorcery sold in shops. (But again, could be wrong)

Yeah, I know that they're not going to sell incinerate in stores. It was so ridiculous of a suggestion that i figured people wouldn't take it seriously.

<<Warrior Mages do not need to be doing more damage; Warrior Mages need to be doing less damage, but have a greater stake in things that are not doing damage. I've let this stew for years now: are we finally ready to move Warrior Mages beyond "blow stuff up" as its one and only focus?

I've been saying this for years (sans the less damage part). The single mindedness of the guild is the primary reason I play a moon mage these days. It's liberating not to have to live in a hunting ground to advance.

The problem is that elemental magic seems to be limited in non-combat possibilities because so many desirable alternative uses would involve activities that are already covered by other systems and checks against non-magic skills. The guild seems to have collectively set off a giant mime trap ... it is trapped in an invisible box.

---

You suddenly feel nauseous, as if you'd been doing performance art.

>>This the problem. Warrior Mages have been locked, by design and intent, into "the people that do a lot of damage." In a strange way, the Warrior Mages are on the meta level a Barbarian Guild that remained honest.
>>I have never been willing or able to allow growth beyond the niche while retaining the depth of the niche, and that is the flaw. Warrior Mages will not be saved by simply piling on more stuff, but by an Empath Guild level redefinition of what it means to play a Warrior Mage.

I dont see why this niche needs to be what you're asserting it is really. Warmages in general are not asking for more ultra nuke spells, we're asking for more combat efficiency and utility. Things like buffs, solid disablers, and even the OMG taboo topic of a perception boost all make perfect sense for a class whose sole purpose is fighting and killing things. Fighting and killing things even as a design model, would certainly allow for more leeway in variety, such as spells and abilities to help make you better able to fight and kill things.

Not to mention we dont by any means hold the title of top damage dealers, I dont think anyone could say that we do with a straight face.

I dont really care so much about the blackfire system myself, but hearing you flat out shoot down combat familiars out of the blue is pretty depressing, especially considering how long theyve been promised and planned, less than a year ago we were told new fams were waiting on the risen system for just that purpose.

It's just pretty weak to hear all this after all the nerfs of the last year or so, we've seen pretty much all of our more useful spells nerfed hard, and more on the way by all accounts.

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Eladrin

>>Uh... who does then?

CLERICS! (as long as you're talking about undead)

That sounds off, but I don't claim to be an expert. Details?

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Tishra says, "We had a tie, get over it."

The hammer lands an overwhelming strike that knocks the larynx clear back to the vertebrae (So much for last words!).
* Tishra is slain before your eyes!