Previous
>Theives are the undisputed kings of damage output though, in my opinion, i'd be shocked if anyone could even try to argue it. You show me a character/critter you can barely take down with 700's TM and the full warmage arsenal, ill show you a thief with 350 ranks of longbow that can 1 shot it through 800s defenses (this is not a random assertion btw, can be easily tested and reproduced).<
Thieves may be the best at a single spike of damage (or they may not) due to a very brief buff they have but that's not really what's being said here. Warrior Mage abilities simply have the biggest damage numbers, by far, and this is simply not a contestable statement with the possible exception of the known broken backstab verb.
Please note that bringing these damage numbers more into line and expanding the rest of the guild may not even make you 'worse' at combat, since as you are noting a well crafted package of abilities can go a long way.
-Z
DR-ZEYURN
FBC
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 11:21 AM CDT
>>Theives are the undisputed kings of damage output though, in my opinion, i'd be shocked if anyone could even try to argue it. You show me a character/critter you can barely take down with 700's TM and the full warmage arsenal, ill show you a thief with 350 ranks of longbow that can 1 shot it through 800s defenses (this is not a random assertion btw, can be easily tested and reproduced).
It depends on what you're talking about. If you're talking about taking a critter down one at a time then yeah you're probably right. If you're talking about clearing a room as quickly as possible, WMs have the corner on that market hands down.
Prep FR 50
cast
prep RIME 40
cast
prep cl 40
cast
Where'd everyone go?
It depends on what you're talking about. If you're talking about taking a critter down one at a time then yeah you're probably right. If you're talking about clearing a room as quickly as possible, WMs have the corner on that market hands down.
Prep FR 50
cast
prep RIME 40
cast
prep cl 40
cast
Where'd everyone go?
SUAVETERRORIST
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 11:33 AM CDT
>Thieves may be the best at a single spike of damage (or they may not) due to a very brief buff they have but that's not really what's being said here. Warrior Mage abilities simply have the biggest damage numbers, by far, and this is simply not a contestable statement with the possible exception of the known broken backstab verb.
>Please note that bringing these damage numbers more into line and expanding the rest of the guild may not even make you 'worse' at combat, since as you are noting a well crafted package of abilities can go a long way.
Duly noted and understood, but just speaking from a viewpoint without the numbers behind the scenes what is visible when its put into practice doesnt necassarily look like thats the case. Not trying to argue the point, just that it may seem different in actual play than it actually works with the numbers behind the theory.
And yes, i do totally agree that a somewhat more versatile array of spell effects/buffs/debuffs/abilities etc. can make a huge difference, and in my opinion is what WMs need far more than yet another damage spell.
P.S. shut up gothus, im not trying to get your hax nerfed, just making a point. NOT THAT YOU WERE ONE OF THE THIEVES I WAS TALKING ABOUT IN THAT EXAMPLE.
FBC- Thats a debatable point as well.
Eladrin
>Please note that bringing these damage numbers more into line and expanding the rest of the guild may not even make you 'worse' at combat, since as you are noting a well crafted package of abilities can go a long way.
Duly noted and understood, but just speaking from a viewpoint without the numbers behind the scenes what is visible when its put into practice doesnt necassarily look like thats the case. Not trying to argue the point, just that it may seem different in actual play than it actually works with the numbers behind the theory.
And yes, i do totally agree that a somewhat more versatile array of spell effects/buffs/debuffs/abilities etc. can make a huge difference, and in my opinion is what WMs need far more than yet another damage spell.
P.S. shut up gothus, im not trying to get your hax nerfed, just making a point. NOT THAT YOU WERE ONE OF THE THIEVES I WAS TALKING ABOUT IN THAT EXAMPLE.
FBC- Thats a debatable point as well.
Eladrin
MORDIMER00
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 11:38 AM CDT
Soooo, how exactly is that TM rewrite going? Is Wythor still in charge of it?
FBC
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 11:39 AM CDT
I'm not opposed to WMs getting another damage spell. It just doesn't need to be a copy of one we already have with different messaging. Rimefang and MOA are prime examples of getting a new damage spell that are completely unique. If they can follow the example of these spells I don't see a problem with it.
SUAVETERRORIST
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 11:54 AM CDT
>>I'm not opposed to WMs getting another damage spell. It just doesn't need to be a copy of one we already have with different messaging. Rimefang and MOA are prime examples of getting a new damage spell that are completely unique. If they can follow the example of these spells I don't see a problem with it.
I think this is a horrible idea, we already have a slew of spells that deal direct damage, some fill a neat niche, most are just another TM attack with different messaging than your other 20 TM attack spells but essentially do the exact same thing, just not as well as the ones a tier or two up. So instead they get ignored because only a handful really rise above the others in any way shape or form. Rimefang and MOA as you mentioned are neat, and fill a niche i suppose, but more niche damage spells arent really gonna accomplish anything.
MOA is neat, and different, but it doesnt have many practical applications. Rimefang is similar. They arent really of any use for training tools, kinda sub par for crowd control, if thats what you need our other spells do it better. Sometimes handy in a rare pvp niche, but not too often.
What im saying is that, while interesting for a bit, and neat messaging aside, do we really need more niche damage spells that you'll cast once or twice a month?
Mord- i dont think Wythor is really actively coding anything anymore, or at least thats the impression his last few posts gave.
Eladrin
I think this is a horrible idea, we already have a slew of spells that deal direct damage, some fill a neat niche, most are just another TM attack with different messaging than your other 20 TM attack spells but essentially do the exact same thing, just not as well as the ones a tier or two up. So instead they get ignored because only a handful really rise above the others in any way shape or form. Rimefang and MOA as you mentioned are neat, and fill a niche i suppose, but more niche damage spells arent really gonna accomplish anything.
MOA is neat, and different, but it doesnt have many practical applications. Rimefang is similar. They arent really of any use for training tools, kinda sub par for crowd control, if thats what you need our other spells do it better. Sometimes handy in a rare pvp niche, but not too often.
What im saying is that, while interesting for a bit, and neat messaging aside, do we really need more niche damage spells that you'll cast once or twice a month?
Mord- i dont think Wythor is really actively coding anything anymore, or at least thats the impression his last few posts gave.
Eladrin
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 11:55 AM CDT
I still want details, I'm curious. The only explanations I can think of involve stacking things in favor of the thief or against the warrior mage, which would make it a bit of a bad example.
Tishra says, "We had a tie, get over it."
The hammer lands an overwhelming strike that knocks the larynx clear back to the vertebrae (So much for last words!).
* Tishra is slain before your eyes!
Tishra says, "We had a tie, get over it."
The hammer lands an overwhelming strike that knocks the larynx clear back to the vertebrae (So much for last words!).
* Tishra is slain before your eyes!
ORBITAL303
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 11:55 AM CDT
I would love our niche to be "exceptional use of elements to control combat" rather than simply "masters of killing with magic". I would love more reliable or useful debuffs and disablers to be able to fully handle most combat situations and compliment our already great buffs and killing spells. I feel like we are a one trick pony with killing spells and would love to see that broadened a bit.
My 0.02
- Starlear -
My 0.02
- Starlear -
SUAVETERRORIST
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 12:02 PM CDT
>I still want details, I'm curious. The only explanations I can think of involve stacking things in favor of the thief or against the warrior mage, which would make it a bit of a bad example.
Not talking about stacking anything, and you already pretty much have the details, 350 longbow ranks plus khri > 800s defenses.
Its not terribly hard to test or recreate yourself if youre interested, but i think the conversation here has pretty much moved past it.
Eladrin
Not talking about stacking anything, and you already pretty much have the details, 350 longbow ranks plus khri > 800s defenses.
Its not terribly hard to test or recreate yourself if youre interested, but i think the conversation here has pretty much moved past it.
Eladrin
JMF90
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 12:07 PM CDT
I'll grant you MOA's main niche may be teaching PM, but rimefang isn't useful? I'd love a version of TKS that I didn't kill bystanders with.
I think part of the problem is the numbers. Each TM spell does different damage types. This is usually a hybrid (fire/impact, for instance). However, the numbers get so high on good spells (PD for MMs, ALA for WMs, etc) that you never really end up worrying about creature resistances. Meanwhile, other spells that would theoretically be better suited are just inferior. Unless fireball is somewhat close to ALA in terms of accuracy and damage, why would you ever bother with fireball?
Warrior mages would theoretically be the best suited to adjusting their spells to resistances, given the variety of damage types in their spellbook, but in practice they aren't. Because the only insurmountable resistances you encounter are with undead, and that's basically 100% cleric (although MM TKT with a blessed item gets an honorable mention).
By the way, how are black marbled gargoyles immune to all magic? They should be vulnerable to ice or something.
Of course, for the resistance/vulnerability thing to really work, players would need a real way to assess this information in game.
I think part of the problem is the numbers. Each TM spell does different damage types. This is usually a hybrid (fire/impact, for instance). However, the numbers get so high on good spells (PD for MMs, ALA for WMs, etc) that you never really end up worrying about creature resistances. Meanwhile, other spells that would theoretically be better suited are just inferior. Unless fireball is somewhat close to ALA in terms of accuracy and damage, why would you ever bother with fireball?
Warrior mages would theoretically be the best suited to adjusting their spells to resistances, given the variety of damage types in their spellbook, but in practice they aren't. Because the only insurmountable resistances you encounter are with undead, and that's basically 100% cleric (although MM TKT with a blessed item gets an honorable mention).
By the way, how are black marbled gargoyles immune to all magic? They should be vulnerable to ice or something.
Of course, for the resistance/vulnerability thing to really work, players would need a real way to assess this information in game.
FBC
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 12:14 PM CDT
>>Rimefang and MOA as you mentioned are neat, and fill a niche i suppose, but more niche damage spells arent really gonna accomplish anything.
Just because you can't find uses for them doesn't mean that they're not there. If all you're looking for is straight training spell or damage then all you're ever going to use is CL and ALA. There's no reason to use anything else.
>>What im saying is that, while interesting for a bit, and neat messaging aside, do we really need more niche damage spells that you'll cast once or twice a month?
Rimefang is loved by many that I've talked to, while I haven't played my WM much since it came out since I'm trying to get my Cleric to 1000 TM, I look forward to using it often when I start playing him again. Once again just because YOU don't think it's useful doesn't mean it's not. And once again repeating myself, as long as the spell isn't a repeat of another spell with flavored messaging I don't see any reason in getting another TM spell.
Just because you can't find uses for them doesn't mean that they're not there. If all you're looking for is straight training spell or damage then all you're ever going to use is CL and ALA. There's no reason to use anything else.
>>What im saying is that, while interesting for a bit, and neat messaging aside, do we really need more niche damage spells that you'll cast once or twice a month?
Rimefang is loved by many that I've talked to, while I haven't played my WM much since it came out since I'm trying to get my Cleric to 1000 TM, I look forward to using it often when I start playing him again. Once again just because YOU don't think it's useful doesn't mean it's not. And once again repeating myself, as long as the spell isn't a repeat of another spell with flavored messaging I don't see any reason in getting another TM spell.
SUAVETERRORIST
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 12:20 PM CDT
>I'll grant you MOA's main niche may be teaching PM, but rimefang isn't useful? I'd love a version of TKS that I didn't kill bystanders with.
Im not saying its not useful in its own little niche. To look at the spell practically though, it doesnt teach well at all training wise, less than simply using ALA or even fireshard probably though it is passive. What i was trying to illustrate was that if its not particularly useful for training (use ala or CL) and its not particularly useful for crowd control (use FR or CL), not that hot for taking down a single opponent quickly (use ala or lb) then aside from the occasional pvp application or just goofing around, there isnt a whole lot of reason to ever cast it. Basically everything it does, we already have other spells that do it better, its a neat spell, and in its niche its pretty cool, but overall not terribly useful.
Aside from all that though, i do agree with the rest of your post.
Eladrin
Im not saying its not useful in its own little niche. To look at the spell practically though, it doesnt teach well at all training wise, less than simply using ALA or even fireshard probably though it is passive. What i was trying to illustrate was that if its not particularly useful for training (use ala or CL) and its not particularly useful for crowd control (use FR or CL), not that hot for taking down a single opponent quickly (use ala or lb) then aside from the occasional pvp application or just goofing around, there isnt a whole lot of reason to ever cast it. Basically everything it does, we already have other spells that do it better, its a neat spell, and in its niche its pretty cool, but overall not terribly useful.
Aside from all that though, i do agree with the rest of your post.
Eladrin
FBC
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 12:32 PM CDT
So after saying that you don't want copies of other spells with different messaging you say that you just want copies of ALA and CL? Yes yes I know you're saying you don't want any more damage spells but that's only because you can't seem to find a use for any other spell. That doesn't hold true for everyone in the guild. Not even those of us in TF. I know Avaya uses more than those two and I do as well.
SUAVETERRORIST
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 12:32 PM CDT
>Just because you can't find uses for them doesn't mean that they're not there. If all you're looking for is straight training spell or damage then all you're ever going to use is CL and ALA. There's no reason to use anything else.
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying there arent uses for it, just that theyre niche and sporadic, and as you said, if youre looking for training or damage (the two things I most often look for in an offensive spell) then yes, just use CL or ala. I cant think of many things to use an attack spell for other than training or attacking something to damage it, can you?
>Rimefang is loved by many that I've talked to, while I haven't played my WM much since it came out since I'm trying to get my Cleric to 1000 TM, I look forward to using it often when I start playing him again. Once again just because YOU don't think it's useful doesn't mean it's not. And once again repeating myself, as long as the spell isn't a repeat of another spell with flavored messaging I don't see any reason in getting another TM spell.
Once again, im not knocking rimefang as a spell, its neat, it fills a niche, i like it for what it is. But id much rather see spells with more practical, useful applications in areas that we're severely lacking in rather than yet another niche tm damage spell that will get used extremely rarely.
Eladrin
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 12:33 PM CDT
>>If there is any ground work done, lore or otherwise that you can share with us i'd appreciate it.
1) WM TM brought back in line. WM TM bonuses consolidated into the Pathway system as "the thing that makes WM spells go boom better."
2) New combat utility niche focusing on magically creating and augmenting weapons. More focus in general on literal weapons usage augmented by and in coordination with spells.
3) Consolidation of useless or tier-focused TM spells, possibly down to an Energy Bolt style "pick your element" generic TM spell, leaving subsequent TM picks based on actual merit rather than a PC's desire to have a water blaster versus an aether lash.
4) Consolidate and break down spells as necessary to fit current designs for what an individual spell slot is worth.
5) Change the disabler line to be less quirky and more baseline reliable.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
1) WM TM brought back in line. WM TM bonuses consolidated into the Pathway system as "the thing that makes WM spells go boom better."
2) New combat utility niche focusing on magically creating and augmenting weapons. More focus in general on literal weapons usage augmented by and in coordination with spells.
3) Consolidation of useless or tier-focused TM spells, possibly down to an Energy Bolt style "pick your element" generic TM spell, leaving subsequent TM picks based on actual merit rather than a PC's desire to have a water blaster versus an aether lash.
4) Consolidate and break down spells as necessary to fit current designs for what an individual spell slot is worth.
5) Change the disabler line to be less quirky and more baseline reliable.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 12:33 PM CDT
I like the honesty of this discussion, so I'll throw in my two cents.
I sympathize with a lot of the desire for unique development. Things Warmies could use: a sorcery spellbook (vaguely planned), more in-game lore, the release of the enchantment system that's been promised forever (currently in progress), and as far as spells go I'd personally like to see another disabler and a dedicated stat buffer.
Having said that, I am repeatedly puzzled by the insistence - over the course of several years - that Warrior Mages are somehow a maligned guild. Suggestions for improvement are sometimes puzzling. More combat buffs? The current system of combat buffs is arguably the strongest and most versatile in the game. More damage? If you think FR and Rimefang suck, switch to a Cleric and circle to 60 to experience the "wonder" that is non-Warmie AoEs (seriously, regardless of your opinion on AoEs, they are on a whole other level than stuff like Harm Horde).
You're the magical equivalent of Barbarians, with slightly more focus on lore and magic theory. If you want stuff like ranger travel, then quid pro quo: expect to see Rangers with Leaf Rain, or something like that.
Right now the Moon Mage place on the "combat pet totem pole" is the part that's sunk into the earth to lower the pole's center of gravity.
-Armifer de Dragonrealms
I sympathize with a lot of the desire for unique development. Things Warmies could use: a sorcery spellbook (vaguely planned), more in-game lore, the release of the enchantment system that's been promised forever (currently in progress), and as far as spells go I'd personally like to see another disabler and a dedicated stat buffer.
Having said that, I am repeatedly puzzled by the insistence - over the course of several years - that Warrior Mages are somehow a maligned guild. Suggestions for improvement are sometimes puzzling. More combat buffs? The current system of combat buffs is arguably the strongest and most versatile in the game. More damage? If you think FR and Rimefang suck, switch to a Cleric and circle to 60 to experience the "wonder" that is non-Warmie AoEs (seriously, regardless of your opinion on AoEs, they are on a whole other level than stuff like Harm Horde).
You're the magical equivalent of Barbarians, with slightly more focus on lore and magic theory. If you want stuff like ranger travel, then quid pro quo: expect to see Rangers with Leaf Rain, or something like that.
Right now the Moon Mage place on the "combat pet totem pole" is the part that's sunk into the earth to lower the pole's center of gravity.
-Armifer de Dragonrealms
FBC
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 12:33 PM CDT
>>Once again, im not knocking rimefang as a spell, its neat, it fills a niche, i like it for what it is. But id much rather see spells with more practical, useful applications in areas that we're severely lacking in rather than yet another niche tm damage spell that will get used extremely rarely.
/facedesk
/facedesk
/facedesk
/facedesk
/facedesk
/facedesk
/facedesk
/facedesk
/facedesk
/facedesk
JULIAN
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 12:37 PM CDT
>>Warrior Mage abilities simply have the biggest damage numbers, by far, and this is simply not a contestable statement with the possible exception of the known broken backstab verb.<<
I think it's an unassailable fact that Warrior Mages can deal out more damage per unit of time than any other guild, barring very unique circumstances. You can really appreciate that in a war or invasion setting where the combat is constant and huge numbers of mobs are running around. In one-on-one confrontations or hunting situations a Warrior Mage's full potential doesn't get utilized.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
I think it's an unassailable fact that Warrior Mages can deal out more damage per unit of time than any other guild, barring very unique circumstances. You can really appreciate that in a war or invasion setting where the combat is constant and huge numbers of mobs are running around. In one-on-one confrontations or hunting situations a Warrior Mage's full potential doesn't get utilized.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
SAROLEARTHY
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 12:40 PM CDT
Thanks Armifer.
I imagine 1, 3, 4 and 5 are almost all entirely encompassed by the Magic re-write and each sounds good to me.
As a side though i'd definitely be interested in hearing more detailed information about point 2 should you be so inclined.
- Player of Callahaan Val'kesh
I imagine 1, 3, 4 and 5 are almost all entirely encompassed by the Magic re-write and each sounds good to me.
As a side though i'd definitely be interested in hearing more detailed information about point 2 should you be so inclined.
- Player of Callahaan Val'kesh
POWERHAUS
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 12:44 PM CDT
<armifer- thanks for that
word on anything is nice to hear.
_____________________________________
Tekemi exclaims, "It's practically a smorgasbord out here!"
Tekemi says to Tokomi, "You're the prime rib, of course."
word on anything is nice to hear.
_____________________________________
Tekemi exclaims, "It's practically a smorgasbord out here!"
Tekemi says to Tokomi, "You're the prime rib, of course."
MORDIMER00
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 12:52 PM CDT
>>I'd love a version of TKS that I didn't kill bystanders with.
Would you love it if it only meant it worked on targets at melee with you?
Don't get me wrong i do love rimefang but TKS has it's advantages too.
>>1) WM TM brought back in line. WM TM bonuses consolidated into the Pathway system as "the thing that makes WM spells go boom better."
Back in line with what?
>>2) New combat utility niche focusing on magically creating and augmenting weapons. More focus in general on literal weapons usage augmented by and in coordination with spells.
Sweet. Aimed ranged weapons included i hope?
>>3) Consolidation of useless or tier-focused TM spells, possibly down to an Energy Bolt style "pick your element" generic TM spell, leaving subsequent TM picks based on actual merit rather than a PC's desire to have a water blaster versus an aether lash.
>>4) Consolidate and break down spells as necessary to fit current designs for what an individual spell slot is worth.
Sounds good.
>>5) Change the disabler line to be less quirky and more baseline reliable.
>>More combat buffs? The current system of combat buffs is arguably the strongest and most versatile in the game.
SUF is arguably one of the best buffs in the game, SW at lower levels as well. The remainder of our buffs are highly situational, which is fine but then i want more.
>>If you think FR and Rimefang suck, switch to a Cleric and circle to 60 to experience the "wonder" that is non-Warmie AoEs (seriously, regardless of your opinion on AoEs, they are on a whole other level than stuff like Harm Horde).
Same could be said about disablers and buffs to clerics.
>>If you want stuff like ranger travel, then quid pro quo: expect to see Rangers with Leaf Rain, or something like that.
No, i don't want stuff like travel. I want combat oriented perks and i'd like for them to be at least on par with some of the things the other guilds have. If they HAVE TO focus on dealing damage as opposed to defenses or disablers then how about we get a perk that will make my TM as accurate and powerful as that player made arrow being sniped by a thief? Before the MR ofcourse, don't want to get too greedy.
Would you love it if it only meant it worked on targets at melee with you?
Don't get me wrong i do love rimefang but TKS has it's advantages too.
>>1) WM TM brought back in line. WM TM bonuses consolidated into the Pathway system as "the thing that makes WM spells go boom better."
Back in line with what?
>>2) New combat utility niche focusing on magically creating and augmenting weapons. More focus in general on literal weapons usage augmented by and in coordination with spells.
Sweet. Aimed ranged weapons included i hope?
>>3) Consolidation of useless or tier-focused TM spells, possibly down to an Energy Bolt style "pick your element" generic TM spell, leaving subsequent TM picks based on actual merit rather than a PC's desire to have a water blaster versus an aether lash.
>>4) Consolidate and break down spells as necessary to fit current designs for what an individual spell slot is worth.
Sounds good.
>>5) Change the disabler line to be less quirky and more baseline reliable.
>>More combat buffs? The current system of combat buffs is arguably the strongest and most versatile in the game.
SUF is arguably one of the best buffs in the game, SW at lower levels as well. The remainder of our buffs are highly situational, which is fine but then i want more.
>>If you think FR and Rimefang suck, switch to a Cleric and circle to 60 to experience the "wonder" that is non-Warmie AoEs (seriously, regardless of your opinion on AoEs, they are on a whole other level than stuff like Harm Horde).
Same could be said about disablers and buffs to clerics.
>>If you want stuff like ranger travel, then quid pro quo: expect to see Rangers with Leaf Rain, or something like that.
No, i don't want stuff like travel. I want combat oriented perks and i'd like for them to be at least on par with some of the things the other guilds have. If they HAVE TO focus on dealing damage as opposed to defenses or disablers then how about we get a perk that will make my TM as accurate and powerful as that player made arrow being sniped by a thief? Before the MR ofcourse, don't want to get too greedy.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 12:54 PM CDT
>>Back in line with what?
Everybody else.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Everybody else.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
JULIAN
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 12:59 PM CDT
>>Stuff Armifir wrote<<
I feel good about that general outline. The WM spell book in general can benefit a lot from being reevaluated holistically. Right now the spell book is like a tool box in which every tool is a hammer, and some of the hammers are huge. We are going to come out ahead and be more effective at the end of this process if the hammers get smaller but we add wrenches, pliers, gloves, etc.
I'd like to see the offensive buff/debuff package become more focused, like the Thief package or the Paladin package.
Thief offensive abilities all rely heavily on stealth and backstab, and they have a suite of abilities available that buff stealth/backstab and nerf a target's perception.
All a Paladin's attack spells (until recently) ran through the SvS and SvW calculations, and they have strong self-buffs for almost all the stats that go into offensive side of those calculations.
You don't have to have huge damage/effectiveness numbers on individual spells if your spell package is designed to work together in the right way.
The Moon Mage offensive package is a great example of that. It's not large, but the combination of stealth, anti-magic and disabling makes it very potent.
>>2) New combat utility niche focusing on magically creating and augmenting weapons. More focus in general on literal weapons usage augmented by and in coordination with spells.<<
This just sounds awesome. The sooner the better. Will we finally be able to produce better-than-store-bought weapons with spells?
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
I feel good about that general outline. The WM spell book in general can benefit a lot from being reevaluated holistically. Right now the spell book is like a tool box in which every tool is a hammer, and some of the hammers are huge. We are going to come out ahead and be more effective at the end of this process if the hammers get smaller but we add wrenches, pliers, gloves, etc.
I'd like to see the offensive buff/debuff package become more focused, like the Thief package or the Paladin package.
Thief offensive abilities all rely heavily on stealth and backstab, and they have a suite of abilities available that buff stealth/backstab and nerf a target's perception.
All a Paladin's attack spells (until recently) ran through the SvS and SvW calculations, and they have strong self-buffs for almost all the stats that go into offensive side of those calculations.
You don't have to have huge damage/effectiveness numbers on individual spells if your spell package is designed to work together in the right way.
The Moon Mage offensive package is a great example of that. It's not large, but the combination of stealth, anti-magic and disabling makes it very potent.
>>2) New combat utility niche focusing on magically creating and augmenting weapons. More focus in general on literal weapons usage augmented by and in coordination with spells.<<
This just sounds awesome. The sooner the better. Will we finally be able to produce better-than-store-bought weapons with spells?
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
SUAVETERRORIST
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 01:00 PM CDT
>So after saying that you don't want copies of other spells with different messaging you say that you just want copies of ALA and CL?
This is not at all what im saying, i'd like to assume you know that.
>Yes yes I know you're saying you don't want any more damage spells but that's only because you can't seem to find a use for any other spell. That doesn't hold true for everyone in the guild. Not even those of us in TF. I know Avaya uses more than those two and I do as well.
I never at any point said i cant find a use for them whatsoever, just that the uses are extremely few and far between.
To speak directly to the point i think you're trying to make, No, not everything should be copies of ALA and CL, but more directly i dont think we need a slew of new spells that do 'almost' what CL and ALA do. i appreciate the niche-ness of spells like rimefang, theyre neat, but dont serve a ton of purpose. I dont think we need another handful of neat nichey ways to kill things almost sorta kinda as well as spells we already have when there are so many other areas we are lacking in.
Eladrin
This is not at all what im saying, i'd like to assume you know that.
>Yes yes I know you're saying you don't want any more damage spells but that's only because you can't seem to find a use for any other spell. That doesn't hold true for everyone in the guild. Not even those of us in TF. I know Avaya uses more than those two and I do as well.
I never at any point said i cant find a use for them whatsoever, just that the uses are extremely few and far between.
To speak directly to the point i think you're trying to make, No, not everything should be copies of ALA and CL, but more directly i dont think we need a slew of new spells that do 'almost' what CL and ALA do. i appreciate the niche-ness of spells like rimefang, theyre neat, but dont serve a ton of purpose. I dont think we need another handful of neat nichey ways to kill things almost sorta kinda as well as spells we already have when there are so many other areas we are lacking in.
Eladrin
JULIAN
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 01:02 PM CDT
>>Everybody else.
Does that mean you'll be rewriting the Pathways as well? Some of them don't work, lose benefit as your prep moves towards the mana cap, or otherwise aren't as useful as they could be.
Will Barrage finally become something useful?
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
Does that mean you'll be rewriting the Pathways as well? Some of them don't work, lose benefit as your prep moves towards the mana cap, or otherwise aren't as useful as they could be.
Will Barrage finally become something useful?
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
CHAOS
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 01:09 PM CDT
>2) New combat utility niche focusing on magically creating and augmenting weapons. More focus in general on literal weapons usage augmented by and in coordination with spells.
Where does this fall in with Moon Mages and Moonblade/Shape Moonblade? I don't imagine Moon Mages getting more weapon creation abilities with Magic 3.0, but I'm wondering if WMs getting this niche will change our Moonblade.
-Dihm
Where does this fall in with Moon Mages and Moonblade/Shape Moonblade? I don't imagine Moon Mages getting more weapon creation abilities with Magic 3.0, but I'm wondering if WMs getting this niche will change our Moonblade.
-Dihm
VEE-REX
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 01:11 PM CDT
>>This just sounds awesome. The sooner the better. Will we finally be able to produce better-than-store-bought weapons with spells?
Best HT weapon?
I'd nerdrage if you guys could make the best LT weapon.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Best HT weapon?
I'd nerdrage if you guys could make the best LT weapon.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 01:11 PM CDT
>>Will we finally be able to produce better-than-store-bought weapons with spells?
I really need to wait on Dartenian and crafting before I write that check, but I'm willing to go as far as to say "on par with or better than Moonblade, however that turns out, insofar as raw stat augmentation go."
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
I really need to wait on Dartenian and crafting before I write that check, but I'm willing to go as far as to say "on par with or better than Moonblade, however that turns out, insofar as raw stat augmentation go."
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
DR-ZEYURN
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 01:19 PM CDT
>Does that mean you'll be rewriting the Pathways as well?<
Well, we'll be making sure the proper hooks are in the magic system for them, I'm not sure that constitutes a 'rewrite' so much though.
>Will Barrage finally become something useful?<
I don't think this is actually particularly possible until new combat, frankly.
-Z
Well, we'll be making sure the proper hooks are in the magic system for them, I'm not sure that constitutes a 'rewrite' so much though.
>Will Barrage finally become something useful?<
I don't think this is actually particularly possible until new combat, frankly.
-Z
MYERS909
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 02:11 PM CDT
>>Combat familiars in the sense of, "Go for the eyes, Boo, GO FOR THE EYES!"?
I really don't care how it comes about as long as it addresses the following problem. I'm fighting with a panther by my side, Sword swinging, ice blades circling me, fire rain pumping, cackling and yelling. But my panther just keeps licking itself, lounging as if nothing is going on. Glowing ever 5 minutes or so when I re cast fire rain.
I don't know what I want exactly, but I do know I want something more than a +1 to spell prep and an occasional drag. While, I'd rather not have my familiar die, I am OK with it being sent out of this plane for a few hours.
>>Barrage Sucks
You are doing it wrong. Try using it against a Moon Mage with Sheer. Should even work against a war mage with AC.
>>1) WM TM brought back in line. WM TM bonuses consolidated into the Pathway system as "the thing that makes WM spells go boom better."
My only real concern is that everyone else says that TM learning REALLY sucks, unless you are a war mage. Once we are on par with everyone else, I hope everyone will get a bump in TM exp. I will personally feel completely emasculated if I ever find the best way to train TM as a upper tier War Mage is to spam low mana energy bolts.
I really don't care how it comes about as long as it addresses the following problem. I'm fighting with a panther by my side, Sword swinging, ice blades circling me, fire rain pumping, cackling and yelling. But my panther just keeps licking itself, lounging as if nothing is going on. Glowing ever 5 minutes or so when I re cast fire rain.
I don't know what I want exactly, but I do know I want something more than a +1 to spell prep and an occasional drag. While, I'd rather not have my familiar die, I am OK with it being sent out of this plane for a few hours.
>>Barrage Sucks
You are doing it wrong. Try using it against a Moon Mage with Sheer. Should even work against a war mage with AC.
>>1) WM TM brought back in line. WM TM bonuses consolidated into the Pathway system as "the thing that makes WM spells go boom better."
My only real concern is that everyone else says that TM learning REALLY sucks, unless you are a war mage. Once we are on par with everyone else, I hope everyone will get a bump in TM exp. I will personally feel completely emasculated if I ever find the best way to train TM as a upper tier War Mage is to spam low mana energy bolts.
MORDIMER00
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 02:24 PM CDT
>>You are doing it wrong. Try using it against a Moon Mage with Sheer. Should even work against a war mage with AC.
Yes, please stand still, don't even thinking about hiding or chain stunning me with dazzle while i get in range to pull of this sucky maneuver.
Yes, please stand still, don't even thinking about hiding or chain stunning me with dazzle while i get in range to pull of this sucky maneuver.
MYERS909
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 02:54 PM CDT
>>>>You are doing it wrong. Try using it against a Moon Mage with Sheer. Should even work against a war mage with AC.
>>Yes, please stand still, don't even thinking about hiding or chain stunning me with dazzle while i get in range to pull of this sucky maneuver.
If your biggest worry is hiding, how do you think they should fix barrage to prevent someone from doing that? Same with Dazzle.
I understand what you are saying Mortimer, it isn't 100% effective 100% of the time. But what is?
I feel like most of you have unrealistic expectations. I prescribe a life of disappointment, doubt and uncertainty.
>>Yes, please stand still, don't even thinking about hiding or chain stunning me with dazzle while i get in range to pull of this sucky maneuver.
If your biggest worry is hiding, how do you think they should fix barrage to prevent someone from doing that? Same with Dazzle.
I understand what you are saying Mortimer, it isn't 100% effective 100% of the time. But what is?
I feel like most of you have unrealistic expectations. I prescribe a life of disappointment, doubt and uncertainty.
JULIAN
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 03:01 PM CDT
>>I understand what you are saying Mortimer, it isn't 100% effective 100% of the time. But what is?<<
The problem is...
There is no reason to use Barrage, ever, except personal whim.
If it worked more like Smite, that would be different.
But it doesn't.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
The problem is...
There is no reason to use Barrage, ever, except personal whim.
If it worked more like Smite, that would be different.
But it doesn't.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
MORDIMER00
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 03:08 PM CDT
>>If your biggest worry is hiding, how do you think they should fix barrage to prevent someone from doing that? Same with Dazzle.
>>I understand what you are saying Mortimer, it isn't 100% effective 100% of the time. But what is?
The one example you're giving for barrage to be effective isn't very practical, that's all i'm saying.
>>I understand what you are saying Mortimer, it isn't 100% effective 100% of the time. But what is?
The one example you're giving for barrage to be effective isn't very practical, that's all i'm saying.
MIKEM1
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 03:48 PM CDT
>>Combat familiars in the sense of, "Go for the eyes, Boo, GO FOR THE EYES!"?
I have a dog named Boo.
You suddenly feel nauseous, as if you'd been doing performance art.
I have a dog named Boo.
You suddenly feel nauseous, as if you'd been doing performance art.
MYERS909
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 03:59 PM CDT
>>>>If your biggest worry is hiding, how do you think they should fix barrage to prevent someone from doing that? Same with Dazzle.
>>>>I understand what you are saying Mortimer, it isn't 100% effective 100% of the time. But what is?
>>The one example you're giving for barrage to be effective isn't very practical, that's all i'm saying.
I've seen 2 kills with it, I've gotten 1 kill with it. It can be done! Granted, I'd love it if the barrage ability allowed for a weakened "snap cast" version that did not have full prep, but I feel like that wouldn't even be good enough for most people.
>>>>I understand what you are saying Mortimer, it isn't 100% effective 100% of the time. But what is?
>>The one example you're giving for barrage to be effective isn't very practical, that's all i'm saying.
I've seen 2 kills with it, I've gotten 1 kill with it. It can be done! Granted, I'd love it if the barrage ability allowed for a weakened "snap cast" version that did not have full prep, but I feel like that wouldn't even be good enough for most people.
JULIAN
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 04:08 PM CDT
>>I've seen 2 kills with it, I've gotten 1 kill with it. It can be done!<<
The point is that you have to make an extraordinary effort to do it. If you were considering using Barrage for any reason other than "Hey, I really want to kill something/someone with Barrage" you wouldn't use it.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
The point is that you have to make an extraordinary effort to do it. If you were considering using Barrage for any reason other than "Hey, I really want to kill something/someone with Barrage" you wouldn't use it.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
MYERS909
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 04:24 PM CDT
>>The point is that you have to make an extraordinary effort to do it.
Yes, killing someone takes effort sometimes.
>>If you were considering using Barrage for any reason other than "Hey, I really want to kill something/someone with Barrage" you wouldn't use it.
Actually, if you can't hit an enemy directly with magic and are left to your swords, using barrage is a great way to amp up the damage. I'd certainly recommend using it in that situation. Probably only in that situation. I actually can't think of any other situation. But it does work in that one solo situation. OH! And the situation where you say "I really want to kill someone with Barrage".
Yes, killing someone takes effort sometimes.
>>If you were considering using Barrage for any reason other than "Hey, I really want to kill something/someone with Barrage" you wouldn't use it.
Actually, if you can't hit an enemy directly with magic and are left to your swords, using barrage is a great way to amp up the damage. I'd certainly recommend using it in that situation. Probably only in that situation. I actually can't think of any other situation. But it does work in that one solo situation. OH! And the situation where you say "I really want to kill someone with Barrage".
MORDIMER00
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 04:31 PM CDT
>>Actually, if you can't hit an enemy directly with magic and are left to your swords, using barrage is a great way to amp up the damage. I'd certainly recommend using it in that situation. Probably only in that situation. I actually can't think of any other situation. But it does work in that one solo situation. OH! And the situation where you say "I really want to kill someone with Barrage".
It might work, if you can even get past their defenses with your sword. And that's if they stand still long enough for you to get close.
What might work better in that situation is shooting them in the face, among other things.
It might work, if you can even get past their defenses with your sword. And that's if they stand still long enough for you to get close.
What might work better in that situation is shooting them in the face, among other things.
VEE-REX
Re: Can't lose what you never had
03/25/2010 04:32 PM CDT
Khaoz is schooling you guys on PvP. Listen up and learn.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
