Can we have a list option of what is left to learn? So, ask kalag about khri list? Something like that?

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

haven't had a chance to test yet, but speaking as someone who hasn't been particularly excited to play my thief in quite some time, these changes sound incredible and are much needed. Thanks in advance Javac and Grejuva (and any other in-the-background helpers).

Gonna have to wake Sneak up for this one, thx Javac and Grejuva!

FYI, Ambushes are still only taught by specific GLs, as before. Only Khri were made to be taught globally.

I'm still working on Delay. ATM, I have a way that seems to work, but you get all the messaging front loaded. Khri still activate at the same interval, though. Gonna get a QC, and roll it to Test unless there are strong objections to seeing all that messaging at once when you delay more than one at a time.

Ignite refuses to be unlearned, even by the wipe. I'll investigate that next.

Javac
That one guy

If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.

Very happy with what I've seen so far. Glad to see some suggestions we've made hit reality. Hell of a job so far. Hopefully I can test some more tomorrow.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

No doubt.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

Was Kalag teaching all Khri a QOL update? As an outcome, this will end the practice of players teaching Khri - which I enjoyed and loved the messaging for.

>Can we clarify if they are supposed to both activate if they are both running?
>Both should proc under the right conditions. There's no guarantee on order they'll proc, but if Sagacity reduces the damage to zero before Evanescence checks for damage, Evanescence won't proc. Evanescence only procs if you take damage.
>If not, does it expire when used up?
>Sagacity ablates, but refills slowly over time.

This seems to fit the exact behavior I was seeing. Working as intended then!
For Khri Sag, does it ignore spells? Does a fireball still wear down Khri Sag, even if it doesn't help with damage barrier?

---

So many changes, I am testing some high-end hunting areas and seeing some potential new play styles.
Dual load and Intimidate are fun to mess around with.
Tanking with Khri Sag and Khri Endure
Khri Sag + Khri Evanescence really cuts down on massive beatings when dancing with 4 mobs

At cap, are we able to get all Khri and ambushes, or is there a thought of adding specialty builds to the guild?

I am going to be doing some PVP testing this afternoon. Curious to see how Silence + Evanescence + Vanish work together in countering Watch mechanics. The constant ability to (passively) pop into stealth seems to add a uniqueness to the guild that I have been looking for.
Also want to see how Khri Intimidate and Khri Credence work against players and pets.

How does Terrify change the balance of an ability like Eliminate?

Without hard CC it was tricky to set up an Eliminate/Backstab combo because the Thief had to make it to melee and the target had some options for dealing with that.

With Terrify it seems like the following:

>advance
>khri terrify
>khri eliminate
>hide
>backstab

Is a reliable combo with no counters if you don't resist Terrify. A backstab with eliminate is pretty much the alphaest alpha strike there is.



Mazrian

>Is a reliable combo with no counters if you don't resist Terrify. A backstab with eliminate is pretty much the alphaest alpha strike there is.

A. That's the entire point of Eliminate. lol
B. Perception still nerfs BS to little more than an ambush thrust.
C. AOE like HALO, EE, and RF will still be strong deterrents. Not to mention the extra wards that MU's can stack with a little sorcery.

Saying "no counters" is pretty strong IMO.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

Wonder if eliminate should follow the heavy TM model.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Is Ambush stun having weapon types removed (polearm/ staffs? so far tested) something that has to happen? More pushing people into cookie cutters seems to diminish the core "you can train anything" aspect of dragonrealms.

If its a non negotiable nerf can we see the artificial damage caps removed from slash and stun at least?

>Is Ambush stun having weapon types removed (polearm/ staffs? so far tested) something that has to happen? More pushing people into cookie cutters seems to diminish the core "you can train anything" aspect of dragonrealms.

Being able to slash or stun with any weapon as long as you met the requisite criteria always added awesome flavor to things. I'd really hate to see this gone.

>If its a non negotiable nerf can we see the artificial damage caps removed from slash and stun at least?

And so much this. Its silly to me that you can hamstring someone 30 times and not do any MORE damage. It would be nice if it actually prevented retreat briefly as intended, and then acted as a hit based off the success of the roll. So you maybe could take a leg and hobble them. Same for stun. Repetitive thief ambushes should stack damage. 3-5 clouts should bring on some nerve damage after that many chops to the neck. A few ambush stuns with a senci maul should cave a head in.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

>>It's more than just "unhiding the thief" EE does nerve damage, and the penalty to stealth for nerve damage is ridiculous. <<

EE pulses every 15 seconds more or less. The nerve damage a thief could take from the one or two pulses they'd potentially eat getting to melee and finishing the combo is not enough to make any difference except at the margin.

>>So if you couldn't see them before with WATCH like everyone uses, and you still can't see them when they are hiding with nerve damage... You are outclassed anyways and shouldn't have a hope or a prayer against that thief.<<

The nerve damage is a non issue unless the Thief stood around soaking up EE for a minute or two, and can someone even trigger Watch while immobilized? =P

Plus the Thief by definition has more ranks of hiding than the target has perception at the same level, passive bonus to stealth, bonuses to stealth from active abilities that stack with the passives, etc. Outclassing someone on the stealth check is not that hard for a thief (by design) and doesn't say anything about how two characters match up otherwise. Plus there are responses to a thief trying to advance to melee and backstab that don't require seeing the thief in hiding but do require not being immobilized.

>> You also didn't address any of the other issues I mentioned. Wards being one of them. Stacking wards instantly gives MU's the upper hand. A thief has no way to dispel those wards without coming out of hiding. I suppose you could sit back and snipe 5x but with the perc checks to snipe, plus your using watch, why the hell would you? So...? <<

It's an irrelevant point, man. Not everyone can stack wards like that and being able to stack wards like that is a thing that is going to change with the barriew review because it's known to be really imba.

IMO the summary point is Terrify makes it a lot easier to land the combo than it was before, and the combo was balanced in part around it being relatively difficult to set up. All I'm suggesting is it might need a balance pass in light of the new stuff.

Mazrian

>>It's more than just "unhiding the thief" EE does nerve damage, and the penalty to stealth for nerve damage is ridiculous. <<

>EE pulses every 15 seconds more or less. The nerve damage a thief could take from the one or two pulses they'd potentially eat getting to melee and finishing the combo is not enough to make any difference except at the margin.

Except that we are playing the what if game. And nerve damage does matter. One or two pulses is plenty to screw a thieves hiding up, and make your perception check easier to nerf the BS anyways. That's my point. You don't get to play the what if game and then say "well, it only might matter here". You deal with the worst case scenarios right? Because that's how real balance is found. It's not like it's a super slim chance to get screwed by it.

>>So if you couldn't see them before with WATCH like everyone uses, and you still can't see them when they are hiding with nerve damage... You are outclassed anyways and shouldn't have a hope or a prayer against that thief.<<

I stand by this.

>The nerve damage is a non issue unless the Thief stood around soaking up EE for a minute or two, and can someone even trigger Watch while immobilized? =P

I don't know if WATCH can be used while immob. Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

>Plus the Thief by definition has more ranks of hiding than the target has perception at the same level, passive bonus to stealth, bonuses to stealth from active abilities that stack with the passives, etc. Outclassing someone on the stealth check is not that hard for a thief (by design) and doesn't say anything about how two characters match up otherwise. Plus there are responses to a thief trying to advance to melee and backstab that don't require seeing the thief in hiding but do require not being immobilized.

Yes, a thief is supposed to be good at stealth. You are supposed to be good at magic. You have AOEs and ways to combat stealth... AND you have the free ranks of watch to push you over the top. Lets not act like skillset placement REALLY matters that much when you are learning perc every minute you are hunting. Maybe I'm just lucky and my terts seem to learn just fine and have actually kept up just fine with a lot of my secondary and even some primary skills. Don't know. I'm just speaking from my own experience here. As much as everyone likes to complain about BS and thieves... It's literally one skill to neuter them. Perc. No other combat anything or something so integral to a guild in the game is that simple to defeat, and has something to literally throw free ranks at it (WATCH). I mean, if you can't dodge, duck, dive, dip or dodge, you can still parry or use a shield. All you have to do is well, nothing. Because your passive perc will do the job for you, and it will do it even better when you use WATCH. Even if Eliminate is being used, you've still got perc and evasion as a defense... and if the check fails hard enough, parry as well.

>It's an irrelevant point, man. Not everyone can stack wards like that and being able to stack wards like that is a thing that is going to change with the barriew review because it's known to be really imba.

I don't see it as irrelevant at all. There's PLENTY of people that CAN. And again, we plan for worst case scenarios right? That's human nature. The issue I have here is that you are negating the relevance of my statement by saying "but it's not going to work that way in the future, so you should be at a greater disadvantage now". Well... when the barrier rewrite comes in 2025, we'll be good to go right? Or, you plan for the now and adjust things that affect barriers later since that's what's coming later.

>IMO the summary point is Terrify makes it a lot easier to land the combo than it was before, and the combo was balanced in part around it being relatively difficult to set up. All I'm suggesting is it might need a balance pass in light of the new stuff.

I don't disagree, and for as hard as it is to pull off with things like the free ranks of WATCH at your immediate disposal, I think it's nice that the scale now tilts a bit more towards the even side. It's not like we got a WATCH dispel or anything. (Believe me, we requested it).

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

>>I don't see it as irrelevant at all. There's PLENTY of people that CAN. And again, we plan for worst case scenarios right? That's human nature. The issue I have here is that you are negating the relevance of my statement by saying "but it's not going to work that way in the future, so you should be at a greater disadvantage now". Well... when the barrier rewrite comes in 2025, we'll be good to go right? Or, you plan for the now and adjust things that affect barriers later since that's what's coming later.<<

You can stack barriers now, before the changes are released, and Eliminate is still really good. Whether it needs adjusting does not depend on whether stacking barriers are a thing.

I see where you're coming from, man, but I don't think you're being objective and I'm not sure we can really argue this. I'm going to say I got my concern out there and I'll leave it to Javac to consider it or not.


Mazrian

A little bit of feedback after first impressions.

- Are we just supposed to guess what khri are available to learn?
- A couple of weird messaging issues:

* Extra backslash:

>ask kala about insight
Kalag the Sly clicks his claws against his desk and says, "Insight allows us to be better at those things outside our normal urban comfort zone, things that involve the outdoors. It will also improve your ability to tend any scrapes and nicks you pick up in your adventures."\

* Twice says:

<c>ask kala about khri focus

Kalag the Sly clicks his claws against his desk and says,Kalag the Sly clicks his claws against his desk and says, "Stop wasting my time."
<prompt time="1529516072">></prompt>

>Granted, but it's beginning to sound like EE and Halo are unlikely to survive the next Magic system transitions functioning as they currently do.

I can’t speak to Halo, but I think it’s more likely that nerve damage will change than EE’s effect will change.

>EE and Halo remain the only way effective ways to challenge Stealth as a whole that exist outside of the Survival skill set. Notably, Magic is the only skill set that gets ways to challenge Stealth outside of the Survival skill set.

Whirlwind comes to mind as well. And Barbs have an anti-immobilize ability to counter Terrify.

>ask kala about insight
>ask kala about khri focus

The difference in syntax here is important. I don’t think I changed this behavior, you just ask about the name of the ability, no “khri” before it.

Javac
That one guy

If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.

>I don't know what you mean by RF (Refractive Field is, amusingly, a less useful version of Silence), but yes, EE and Halo remain the only way effective ways to challenge Stealth as a whole that exist outside of the Survival skill set. Notably, Magic is the only skill set that gets ways to challenge Stealth outside of the Survival skill set. As Gort points out every time we talk about Stealth it is the best defense in the game in large part because it is so difficult to counter.

I meant Rimefang, not refractive field lol.

Also, any other AOE like Fire Rain, Usol, or Aesrea Everild or however it's spelled.

So what is the real defense against magic then? Oh... Right... Magic. Hows it any different?

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

>>Whirlwind comes to mind as well. And Barbs have an anti-immobilize ability to counter Terrify.

Doesn't remove from hiding, unless something changed, and has such a significant accuracy penalty and balance penalty that using it in PvP is a horrible idea.

And flashflood is anti-stun, anti-web, and standup. I'm not saying I have an issue with the khri, just clarifying some things for the sake of facts.