If you want to do things like this, just go to an inn, Check in reroll, and join the better guild (our guild).

Not being sarcastic, but if i want to start arranging things, etc, i'd join the rangers guild.

You already have spells that are supreme when it comes to using ranged weapons in combat, for example, i've been easily able to hit a person with 400+ evasion with just over 200 longbow with certain spells up (STW, STT, etc), this is in a ranger friends body. And I plucked said person full of of arrows.

I'm just stating the above as i'm always rather surprised (though not as much these days) at how much you have, and yet, you still want more ..

Seriously, you're all basically of the thiefs guild (this conclusion comes after years of playing both guilds), just check in reroll, and take the final step.

>>I'd like to have a discussion about whether there's a way for this to happen that wouldn't completely stomp all over your stealth abilities.<<

Considering we don't have those ideas you mentioned yet... It would be quite difficult to give them to Rangers without:

a) Pissing all of us off. Not that anyone particularly cares...

b) Taking away the usefulness of some of our current abilities that we've been asking (for over a year, perhaps two or more) to have upgraded at higher circles to do:

c) Exactly what you want.

I know there's a sentiment among some of the GMs that they can't add alot of new things into the game without pissing off certain guilds who consider the abilities "theirs." (Say poison or enchanting.) And to an extent, I agree with them.

Keeping the conversation civil and without getting into too much guild vs. guild, I think the Ranger guild really has to decide whether to specialize in certain areas, or else to be generalists. Face it, you're already considered a Stealth guild, a Combat guild, even though you're magic tertiary you've got some impressive spells in all three categories -offense-defense-utility-, you're the best at tanning leather armor or fletching bows... So really, your guild excels at a large number of things. You can't be naturally good at EVERYTHING.

Thieves are a primarily a Stealth guild. Our main focus is Stealth, second to none. We also have skills as Locksmiths, and LIMITED combat abilities, mostly focused on a quick kill - nothing else. And that fits with what I see of Thieves. Since we specialize in Stealth, it makes much more sense that we'd get the large benefit of stealth abilities.

If Rangers want to specialize in stealth, I don't think it makes sense to get bonuses and abilities in so many other areas. Like I said, you can't be naturally good at EVERYTHING. And Thieves already have abilities involving moving SMALL ITEMS while remaining hidden - a natural precursor to moving large items while remaining hidden.

The short of it: Rangers get to slip weapons and bows while hidden over my dead body.

Tam
-There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

I can see your logic, and I am not totally opposed to the idea, but here are a couple of thoughts to add balance to the it...

Rangers are stealthy - in the wilds - so maybe unslinging a bow wile hidden out of town would be feasible.

On the other hand the hidden manipulation of items and weapons is something that takes training, and I am sure Kalika has never given any thought to such activities, so you would have to speak to someone who is an authority on the subject...

Rangers can snipe, but this fits more in the hunter role - the stealthy poacher of animals with enough skill becoming a master of the bow and remaining hidden while firing it. picture the difference between the hunter who shoots a deer and scares the rest of the herd away and the one who remains undetected by his prey. Thieves, on the other hand have a certain assassin-like quality to their attacks by nature. They are not hunting animals, they are masters of urban stealth and combat, and in conducting their seedy business it is often necessary to produce or hide a weapon unseen to better facilitate a kill. Picture the difference here between the thug in the street who when confronted simply pulls out a weapon and attacks, and the fellow who was with the thug that you didn't see pull out a blade and disappear... until it was too late.

Also, when a ranger hunts, he knows he is hunting, and can prepare himself accordingly... if he decides to go and shoot something he has his bow polished, string tightened etc. Often due to his activities the thief can find themselves the hunted, often when they least expect it, so they have devoted some time to training themselves in dealing with that situation.

In conclusion, this ability is a very specific guild ability, and I cannot see a single thief that would be happy about it being 'poached' for another guild, especially since it is one of the few we have that we can actually call our own. That includes some 'tweaked down' version of it or anything remotely similar to it.

Gonif, Tam, ICON1, Greg, KAMVENIENCE, thanks for the constructive feedback.

If I wasn't clear before, both things that I proposed would be possible by both Guilds. (I'd imagine that some of the limitations I described wouldn't apply to you folks, and your range of "possibility" with this type of manuver would far exceed mine.)

If #1 comes too close (even with the "putting away" limitation I described) to infringing on your ability(ies), I can understand that. I suggested that one out of experience getting smashed up at melee, and having to hide quickly to save myself. Often, I've wished I could stealthily switch over to my bow, without doing the (IMO) OOC "come-out-of-hiding-to-put-this-away-and-grab-my-bow-now-you-don't-see-me-again-SNIPE!" dance-step.

However, #2 would still solve my problem. I would just sheath my melee weapon, and then hide. Carefully unsling the bow, then payback the critter that was just munching on vital parts of my anatomy. (Unslinging a bow at melee isn't recommended, especially if you're already unbalanced.)

Again, thanks for the feedback and for not just turning this into a hate-fest. I know there's a lot of bitterness out there, and I'm not trying to add to it.

Folcwyn

course, to even things out, I think we should get some of "theirs", too.


i.e. foraging bonus to getting stuff in the city. i.e. poisonous mushrooms, nightshade or other "stuff"--& makin' somethin nasty out of 'em. Or skinnin for specific parts <a "commoner" version of arrange--which we'd be able to use for...stuff.


This doesn't look like a good place to finger-waggle.

<<course, to even things out, I think we should get some of "theirs", too.

<<i.e. foraging bonus to getting stuff in the city. i.e. poisonous mushrooms, nightshade or other "stuff"--& makin' somethin nasty out of 'em. Or skinnin for specific parts <a "commoner" version of arrange--which we'd be able to use for...stuff.

Why ask for that on a contingency basis?

If it fits your (lack of a) Guild, then suggest it as a stand-alone.

Folcwyn

Honestly, if Ranger just want to slip a weapon away, that's fine with me, though I'm sure there will be people out there saying "If I can put my broadsword away quietly, why can't I put this topaz away quietly?"


The villainy you teach me I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.

<<Honestly, if Ranger just want to slip a weapon away, that's fine with me, though I'm sure there will be people out there saying "If I can put my broadsword away quietly, why can't I put this topaz away quietly?"

Yah, unfortunately I'm sure there would be. (Although this isn't limited to only Rangers.)

Folcwyn

After thinking about this a bit--I'd have to say no to rangers getting anything like this.


last time i checked rangers could use runestones. so you can already do it by using a spell.

thing of it is--you folks seem to want to do what YOU can do already, plus what WE can do. Rangers already seem to have their finger in every single pie.

Double-load: shared with barbarians as a combat guild.

Kick-ass spells: stw plus SOTT ...plus access to the magic system which means any spell thats on a runestone, you have the potential of using.

wilderness bonus out where Most of the critters live...

survival bonus and sniping which is part of us--but we don't have all the fancy spells--plus we have the "benefit" of now trying to "resist" if someone tries to cast something "beneficial" on us--big whoop!-whereas you folks don't resist what doesn't harm you, and still try to evade those that do.-


it's like one of the old stories in greek mythology or in the bible, where the king <who already has the biggest flock of sheep in the nation>, orders that the poor guy that lives next doors only sheep is killed for the banquet, when its the only sheep the poor guy owns.


seems you want whats yours and whats ours, too. just say... no.




This doesn't look like a good place to finger-waggle.

I have no conflict with your character--which is what conflicts is for.

It is an issue of direction for various guilds, and inter-guild relationships as far as priorities are concerned, and skills should not all be constructed in the same way. Otherwise why bother having guilds?

Thus no, I'm not taking this discussion to conflicts, as I am not conflicting with your character.

Rather, I'm stating that whats ours--is ours.




This doesn't look like a good place to finger-waggle.

I think to make Rangers and Thieves happy alike, lets give them something called Death. All they have to do is type Death <person> or Death <critter> or even Death <person> <person> <critter> <critter> and the person(s) and/or critter(s) specified die.
Please, lets have some feedback....

I gues more on topic so my post don't get pulled I used my mathmatical abilites and came up with some awesome equations:

Ranger + put anything in a container while hidden = no
Thief + tan and skin = no
Ranger + unsling a bow while hidden = yes
Thief + unsling a bow while hidden = yes


Galear Konah

<<I think to make Rangers and Thieves happy alike, lets give them something called Death. All they have to do is type Death <person> or Death <critter> or even Death <person> <person> <critter> <critter> and the person(s) and/or critter(s) specified die.
Please, lets have some feedback....

Might be less complaints all around just to give the ability to every OTHER guild, but it could only be used against Rangers and Thieves. ;-)

Folcwyn

>>"Stealth" is a big word<<

Exactly the point. Its such a big word, that in order to excel in stealth, you must SPECIALIZE in stealth. While Rangers are more than welcome to stealth bonuses in a couple things based on being stealth oriented, if you want to be stealth gods, that needs to be your focus. Not stealth oriented and combat oriented and general survivalists and magic users and... on and on. You can't do everything and be good at everything and better than or equal to everyone in everything. I think that's the definition of an "uber" guild.

Thieves have strengths and weaknesses. Its a sacrifice to be the best at some things - you end up being the worst at other things. And I'm fine with that - as long as everyone else is playing by the same rules. I want guild diversity, even if it means I can never cast a spell, play an instrument at a mastery level, or learn skinning at a decent pace against critters that Barbs a third my circle can handle blindfolded. I want that because I know that I can rob any mage, Bard, Ranger, or Barb of every copper they've got on 'em.

Tam
-There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

I just think that any guild can hide and do any movement as long as a skill check in in place. To load an arrow in hiding ranges from 3 seconds to 12 seconds. I figure that if you want to sheathe a light weapon, maybe 3-10 seconds. Medium 6-13 seconds and heavey weighted weapons 10+. Besides any guild can hide and load a ranged weapon in hiding. So why not add these into the factor.


Just my two lirums.
Cefwen R.

Be nice to be able to draw a melee weapon from hiding. Perhaps limit it to LE, or backstabbable....

>Chanerelle snickers at Soims comment, not noticing a banana peel in her path she slips and knocks her head on the ground.

Aiie! You stepped on Mikita Banana! Someone call an Empath!

~Fillia, Master of the Cupcake

"What do I do, Puma!"
"Just dodge, U-One! Keep dodging!"

Read his post carefully 10 times over.

Drawing a weapon while hiding and remaining hidden is a crazy idea!

>... and slips back into the shadows.

Now yer talkin!


Gybrush, bardic S'kra

Soim, I'm the only one allowed to be crazy like a fox! Pssh! You should know that by now.

And I agree. You shouldn't be able to draw anything in the shadows. Not enough light. Unless you're really really good at drawing.

~Fillia, Master of the Cupcake (and crazy like a fox!)

"Sorry for the wait, U-1"
"Puma! Gitaroo!"

Drawing weapons while hiding is patently absurd. It will never happen. What a rediculous idea. Even in a fantasy world, you can only suspend so much disbelief. It would be better if folks just let this one die and focus their efforts on thinking of more reasonable suggestions.

---

-Gheist