You're an idiot.

Debuffs are not useless or anywhere close to useless in training characters or in killing things/characters.

Access to debuffs is one of the best ways, if not the best way, to train a character.

>>I am all for reduced EXP with the way the debuff system used to work. Knock a critter out so they can not defend themselves, then you should not get the same amount of EXP. However, a change was made that now lets them defend, even in a state of sleep. The EXP shouldn't be reduced if the critter can defend.

They could always defend themselves, it's just the status capped the penalties and didn't allow certain penalties to stack.

>>Who said anything about reducing the effect of poison? I've simply pointed that poison (along with other debuff skills) is useless for training your character. I would like to see these skills made useful, when training, for everyday use.

ALONG WITH OTHER DEBUFF SKILLS means you're posting that poison is a debuff.

>>It's kind of like your response. While not totally useless, two snide sentences that ignore all the other points made, doesn't offer much in the way of value.

My two short sentences encapsulated both of your points, that debuffing is a bad way to train and that poison is a debuff.

If you haven't caught on that debuffs are useful, especially before when you didn't even need a weapon skill to use the thief versions, then I don't know of any argument which would convince you.

I am --- Navak

>>All I know is, I learn much better when I don't knock out the creatures.

You call it a penalty, I call it working as intended. Not much to learn when you're wailing on something unconscious or unable to move. It's kind of like sparring in a karate class against some quadriplegic kid who can't fight back. What are you really getting out of the fight?

-Galren Moonskin

!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.

Ehh, not really.

Me taking human growth hormones to bulk up and get stronger (read: buffing myself) and then fighting a normal person is not the same as kicking some cripple who can't fight back.

In the self buffing example I still am getting something out of the fight.


-Galren Moonskin

!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.

< Me taking human growth hormones to bulk up and get stronger (read: buffing myself) and then fighting a normal person is not the same as kicking some cripple who can't fight back. >

Interesting. No one has really said this, however, perhaps the EXP reduction is valid due to the reduced risk to the player. I'll have to think about that.

< You call it a penalty, I call it working as intended. Not much to learn when you're wailing on something unconscious or unable to move.>

It still feels like the reduction is greater than it should be, when the critter can still defend itself. Which means the critter can move, just not attack back.

Also, with self buffing like spar, don't I in fact hit harder, thus gain more exp per hit? I think this is what is really wonky to me. Buff myself, under hunt and get more EXP. Debuff critter, over hunt and get less exp.

Seems counter intuitive to a risk vs reward system.

E.


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SEND[Zeyurn] Such is life.
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>>Using your superpowers to magically make your opponent seem weaker than he actually is...

But... increasing my own ability isn't making my opponent any weaker. It's merely making myself better.

>>...using your superpowers to penalize his strength and make you seem stronger than you actually are.

Again, this is not logical. If I'm penalizing someone, how am I somehow appearing stronger than I really am? Isn't it common knowledge at that point that it is in fact the opponent's inability to defend him/herself that is the result of my drastic success?

>>If you're running a timed marathon versus several opponents, is injecting muscle stimulants into your legs (buff) somehow more rewarding or more honorable than putting muscle tranquilizers (debuff) in his drinking bottle?
<<

A timed marathon isn't a training exercise.

If I'm doing a math problem and I am wearing a casset player which is constantly feeding me ideas pertinent to my study(rank bonus equivilant), I'm obviously going to learn and retain that information easier, rather than if I were to constantly fail and bumble through the problems while making the occasional success. Likewise, if I'm given easier problems(debuff) I obviously am not presented with an at-level challenge to my normal abilities, and thus do not learn as well, if at all.

__
~Leilond, the Crazy Anime Ninja 1000-Macro Non-Artificial Bard
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/leicollagefinal.jpg
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner_v2.xls

>>If I'm doing a math problem and I am wearing a casset player which is constantly feeding me ideas pertinent to my study(rank bonus equivilant),

Again, I think this is a very bad analogy for buffs.

You seem to be assuming that buffs represent insights into functionality and thus should increase learning rate.

That simply isn't the case (at least not with all of them). Benediction is a a magical matrix formed by manipulation of mana to artificially increase your strength and agility, which in turn makes you hit harder. It is not a sudden insight into the properties of sword-swinging which lets you swing more effectively.

Mathematically the end result is exactly the same: you are lessening the challenge. From a pure systems standpoint I don't see why one would increase experience and the other decrease experience. Either both should have no effect on experience or both should bonus experience since both increase rate of success.

If you want to argue the philosophy behind buffs versus the philosophy behind debuffs, I disagree that debuffs are "making the problem easier," so to speak. If I am fighting the dreaded Orc Lord Badbreath with 1000 shield ranks he represents a dangerous opponent regardless of what means I use to overcome him. If I use Dragon Dance (which, again, is more like a Superpower than an insight into learning) to increase my 2HE ranks and beat him head-to-head I should be rewarded X amount of experience for defeating a terrible orc lord. If I instead use my mastery of stealth to knock him upside the head with a brick and then stab him in the back while he's down I should still be awarded X experience for defeating a terrible ord lord.

More plainly, I don't see why Barbarian dances represent a better training tool than Cleric curses or Mental Blast.
*******
Prime: Malkien
Prime: (Necromancer Bob- coming to DR in '08!)
TF: Ganymede

>>More plainly, I don't see why Barbarian dances represent a better training tool than Cleric curses or Mental Blast.

Well, maybe not Mental Blast. Stabbing an opponent who won't be able to fight back for five minutes is very much like kicking a cripple.

Except unconscious and maybe immobilization, I think the different approaches to buffs and debuffs creates a weird disparity in player abilities, with some being very valuable in all situations (PvP and training) and others rewarding you in some situations (PvP) and penalizing you in others (training).

It's not a huge deal but I'd like to work Malediction defense into my training routine without seeing a noticeable drop in the experience I'm gaining per tick.
*******
Prime: Malkien
Prime: (Necromancer Bob- coming to DR in '08!)
TF: Ganymede

< As I said in my original post and just now, the clue is the insight that enhances your own ability. It has no negative effect on the problem itself, and is thus not a debuff. >

If a NEW person walks into the room and sees the math problem in its current state, that person has not received insight. There was no prior knowledge of the problem, so they were not (buffed). However, the math problem remains (debuffed) for the new person.

E.


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SEND[Zeyurn] Such is life.
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>>If a NEW person walks into the room and sees the math problem in its current state, that person has not received insight. There was no prior knowledge of the problem, so they were not (buffed). However, the math problem remains (debuffed) for the new person.

Ok... let's try this again.

Person A is attempting to solve a problem. Person A is given a clue(buff) to that problem. Person B walks in and does not have access to the clue, and must solve the problem as is. Person A and person B have the same skill level; however, because person A has access to the clue, he solves the problem quicker, and thus learns more effectively because he is able to move on to solve other problems while person B is still working on the original problem.

The teacher takes person B off to the side and removes a complicated portion of the problem(debuff). Person B instantly knows how to solve the problem, and has solved it many times before. Because of this, person B does not learn anything new from solving such an easy problem.

With that, I believe I've said my peace here. Thanks for the nice discussion--it was very pleasing.

__
~Leilond, the Crazy Anime Ninja 1000-Macro Non-Artificial Bard
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/leicollagefinal.jpg
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner_v2.xls

< With that, I believe I've said my peace here. Thanks for the nice discussion--it was very pleasing. >

I think the difference is that your applying the clue to a person and I am applying it to the math problem.

Nice photobucket evolution, btw.

E.

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SEND[Zeyurn] Such is life.
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Wow DA, I didn't think you could possibly miss my analogy and come up with one that didn't make sense but you managed to pull it off.

If you can't see what I'm talking about then there ain't much more I can do to make it clearer.

Eroes - as to the fact that a self buff makes you hit harder thus yielding more EXP - while that is all good and well and may seem like a bonus it can be a problem if you're suddenly finding your weapons are no longer moving in your hunting ground however you are unable to defend against the next tier of critters.

It's a blessing and a curse really. If I cap out celpeze on my weapons before I finish them defensively I can't just waltz into armadillos and pick up where I left off. I'm going to get slaughtered pretty quickly.

-Galren Moonskin

!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.

< Eroes - as to the fact that a self buff makes you hit harder thus yielding more EXP - while that is all good and well and may seem like a bonus it can be a problem if you're suddenly finding your weapons are no longer moving in your hunting ground however you are unable to defend against the next tier of critters. >

Honestly, the problem I am having is related to back training some of my weapons, so I have never experienced this. I can use clout to learn brawling, but each attack with the "back trained" weapon after clout is getting a penalty and I really don't want to have to stand around and wait for the critter to wake back up before killing it.

E.


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SEND[Zeyurn] Such is life.
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Unless you're really excited about buffs penalizing your ability to learn this is probably not the best line of argument to pursue.

Both buffs and debuffs are valuable tools, even despite the knack of some debuffs for making the opponent 'teach less'.

-Z

>>Unless you're really excited about buffs penalizing your ability to learn this is probably not the best line of argument to pursue.

I would prefer debuffs to not penalize.

But this would be more consistent :3
*******
Prime: Malkien
Prime: (Necromancer Bob- coming to DR in '08!)
TF: Ganymede

>>I just said right there in words in a language you're supposed to understand that immobilization and unconsciousness would be exceptions to my argument because yes they are like punching cripples.

Dude I caught it and I read your posts. I'm speaking in generalities here - comparing duct taping someone to being stunned doesn't make much sense. Immobilization/webbed? Yeah that fits. I'm contesting that all of the big debuff status should yield less experience.

So what does that leave outside your great big two exceptions? Stuns? Being webbed? Sorry - still not buying it.

>>Buffs and debuffs are the same freaking thing in reverse.

No they are not. I keep pointing this out but oddly enough you're guilty of what you are accusing me of. Not reading. Your analogy of the duct tape vs the me carrying a semi-automatic DOES NOT FIT.

If I hunt you down with a semi-automatic you probably have ZERO chance of winning but I still learn from having to aim and hit a moving target that is trying to defend itself.

Listen to me very carefully.

The difference is in the fact that when you attack something stunned/webbed/immobilized/unconscious/whatever they are not defending with 100% of their ability. Go ahead, read that about 400 times - even say it out loud if you have to.

>>Sorry, there's no challenge when you're being given a 150 rank weapon boost.

The creature is still defending with 100% of its skills. You keep glazing over this fact like it doesn't matter. It does.



-Galren Moonskin

!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.

>>The difference is in the fact that when you attack something stunned/webbed/immobilized/unconscious/whatever they are not defending with 100% of their ability. Go ahead, read that about 400 times - even say it out loud if you have to.

Why does this make a difference?

If I use World Dragon Dance and give myself +500 to rape-tasm skill and the elder armadillo couldn't hope frizzle my hair on his best day I should still learn well since he's attacking with 'all his skill'?

I just disagree with you and that's all there is to it. I'm not going to get hung up on a technicality like "he's only attacking with 95% of his skill instead of 100%!"

One ability makes the difference between offense and defense a couple hundred ranks. One caps at like 90 ranks. One bonuses experience, one penalizes it. That's just weird. I don't care how you justify it.
*******
Prime: Malkien
Prime: (Necromancer Bob- coming to DR in '08!)
TF: Ganymede

>Unless you're really excited about buffs penalizing your ability to learn this is probably not the best line of argument to pursue.

I don't think a tongue-in-cheek threat to nerf is really an appropriate response. I'm a big fan of consistency, and as gonif already pointed out, this makes about as much sense as the skinning model of exp.

>>I just disagree with you and that's all there is to it. I'm not going to get hung up on a technicality like "he's only attacking with 95% of his skill instead of 100%!"

Ron Burgundy: Discovered by the Germans in 1904, they named it San Diego, which of course in German means a whale's fun part.

Veronica Corningstone: No, there's no way that's correct.

Ron Burgundy: I'm sorry, I was trying to impress you. I don't know what it means. I'll be honest, I don't think anyone knows what it means anymore. Scholars maintain that the translation was lost hundreds of years ago.

Veronica Corningstone: Doesn't it mean Saint Diego?

Ron Burgundy: No. No.

Veronica Corningstone: No, that's - that's what it means. Really.

Ron Burgundy: Agree to disagree.

:P

-Galren Moonskin

Tusfaov calmly says, "Excellent. The inner fire burns bright within your chest, Galren. You have achieved a new level of enlightenment."

!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.

< Punching power, hand speed, breathing control. But put you in the ring with someone who also practices sparring, you are goin to get your ass handed to you. >

So, by turning the creature into a punching bag, I should gain less exp, however, I should receive stat increases for Str, Stam and Dex. Sweet! Make it so.

J/K

E.


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SEND[Zeyurn] Such is life.
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Just about every guild has buff and debuff abilities, or ways to obtain them, so... I don't get what's the big deal here?


Vinjince

---

"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."

- Sima Yi