Previous
Would be easier to tell if people told their ranks and stats along with the critter they're facing (hey Kaxis!). I can lock my stealth skills more quickly than I can for every other skill in the game. They're just easy to lock. If I compared all my skills (survival or not) to hiding and stalking then they'd all 'need' an experience boost.
145 BS seems a bit too much for swains. It's possible that the smaller ranked weapons are benefiting greatly if you're landing big hits, and can mind lock better.
If the above is true, it could mean that ambushing the eye grants too much experience. If not, then it'd be better if the roles were reversed and backstab granted the better experience.
Vinjince Rexem'lor
VEE-REX
URUTU
Re: Backstab issues.
10/06/2009 02:19 AM CDT
<<hey Kaxis!>>
hey Vinjince! Good play on words name there. I like it.
<<I can lock my stealth skills more quickly than I can for every other skill in the game. They're just easy to lock.>>
Exactly. Now you've got it. But one thing you're overlooking is that backstab IS a stealth skill. Just as much as hiding and stalking. They're all the same that way. Hence according to your above statement, backstab should be as easy to lock as hide and stalk, and it's not. That's the problem. That's what this entire thread is about.
<<If I compared all my skills (survival or not) to hiding and stalking then they'd all 'need' an experience boost.>>
Could be, I'll take your word for it. But the analogy is completely askew since again, backstab isn't just another skill. It's not just another survival skill. It's a stealth skill that works in unison with the other two stealth skills. So returning once more to your above statement about stealth skills, I agree with you that hiding, stalking, and backstab should all learn equally.
Kaxis
TIP OF THE DAY:
A heavy crossbow is a heavy crossbow type weapon.
hey Vinjince! Good play on words name there. I like it.
<<I can lock my stealth skills more quickly than I can for every other skill in the game. They're just easy to lock.>>
Exactly. Now you've got it. But one thing you're overlooking is that backstab IS a stealth skill. Just as much as hiding and stalking. They're all the same that way. Hence according to your above statement, backstab should be as easy to lock as hide and stalk, and it's not. That's the problem. That's what this entire thread is about.
<<If I compared all my skills (survival or not) to hiding and stalking then they'd all 'need' an experience boost.>>
Could be, I'll take your word for it. But the analogy is completely askew since again, backstab isn't just another skill. It's not just another survival skill. It's a stealth skill that works in unison with the other two stealth skills. So returning once more to your above statement about stealth skills, I agree with you that hiding, stalking, and backstab should all learn equally.
Kaxis
TIP OF THE DAY:
A heavy crossbow is a heavy crossbow type weapon.
GARBAGE23OMF
Re: Backstab issues.
10/06/2009 02:26 AM CDT
<<<I think the essential point is still being missed.>>>>
No, its not. Let me spell out my position for you. With approx 250 ranks of backstab, and 290 ranks of hiding/stalking (Oooo, same discrepency, 40 ranks) I have NO DIFFICULTY training backstab. It trains faster than hiding, slower than stalking, and roughly just as fast as EVASION for me. Granted as you are hunting Orc Raiders I am assuming your skills are 100-200 ranks higher than mine. At YOUR levels there might be an issue. However, as I pointed out and Vinjince seconded
<<Would be easier to tell if people told their ranks and stats along with the critter they're facing (hey Kaxis!). >>>
Identifying if the issue is the skill, or the player is nearly impossible. Presuming that you do have 200 some odd ranks more in the respective skills I would advise you to try basilisks or maybe DP Purifiers and let us know what your results are. (Hopefully you wont become goo, I'm using elanthipedia's critter ladder and I'm used to it not being as ambitious as I like to personally be when hunting) I will point out that our GMs have been highly responsive compared to the past and the fact that they have not weighed in leads me to conclude that they think it is working just fine.
No, its not. Let me spell out my position for you. With approx 250 ranks of backstab, and 290 ranks of hiding/stalking (Oooo, same discrepency, 40 ranks) I have NO DIFFICULTY training backstab. It trains faster than hiding, slower than stalking, and roughly just as fast as EVASION for me. Granted as you are hunting Orc Raiders I am assuming your skills are 100-200 ranks higher than mine. At YOUR levels there might be an issue. However, as I pointed out and Vinjince seconded
<<Would be easier to tell if people told their ranks and stats along with the critter they're facing (hey Kaxis!). >>>
Identifying if the issue is the skill, or the player is nearly impossible. Presuming that you do have 200 some odd ranks more in the respective skills I would advise you to try basilisks or maybe DP Purifiers and let us know what your results are. (Hopefully you wont become goo, I'm using elanthipedia's critter ladder and I'm used to it not being as ambitious as I like to personally be when hunting) I will point out that our GMs have been highly responsive compared to the past and the fact that they have not weighed in leads me to conclude that they think it is working just fine.
LORZELOPHIA
Re: Backstab issues.
10/06/2009 03:59 AM CDT
>>backstab should be as easy to lock as hide and stalk, and it's not. That's the problem. That's what this entire thread is about.
Hiding and stalking are painfully easy to lock. I don't think they should be the benchmark by which we measure any other skills.
-- Player of Lorzelophia
Hiding and stalking are painfully easy to lock. I don't think they should be the benchmark by which we measure any other skills.
-- Player of Lorzelophia
TRINEAN
Re: Backstab issues.
10/06/2009 07:45 AM CDT
I don't think hide/stalk locking are anywhere near good comparisons. I try to lock both ME and LE. If the combination doesn't get my backstabbing moving well I move up, critter wise.
JULIAN
Re: Backstab issues.
10/06/2009 07:52 AM CDT
>>Hiding and stalking are painfully easy to lock. I don't think they should be the benchmark by which we measure any other skills.<<
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/huldahspal/flyingcompany.png
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/huldahspal/flyingcompany.png
RUBYTU
Re: Backstab issues.
10/06/2009 10:56 AM CDT
My thief is a melee fighter. I spend a lot of time backtraining BS to try to keep it up with her combat skills.
Her BS is approximately 130, all 5 weapons she trains are 140-145. Her defenses and armors are around 175, and hiding and stalking are 180ish.
She kind of learns BS on hatchlings, but it's very slow and takes around an hour or so to lock, usually.
When I get home from work I'll do some testing and post better numbers.
"I'm cool because I hate a cat."
Her BS is approximately 130, all 5 weapons she trains are 140-145. Her defenses and armors are around 175, and hiding and stalking are 180ish.
She kind of learns BS on hatchlings, but it's very slow and takes around an hour or so to lock, usually.
When I get home from work I'll do some testing and post better numbers.
"I'm cool because I hate a cat."
VEE-REX
Re: Backstab issues.
10/06/2009 11:40 AM CDT
>>When I get home from work I'll do some testing and post better numbers.
Cool. It does sound like backstab needs an exp boost, but it's hard to say that without more numbers. Yours should be training well in hatchlings.
Vinjince Rexem'lor
Cool. It does sound like backstab needs an exp boost, but it's hard to say that without more numbers. Yours should be training well in hatchlings.
Vinjince Rexem'lor
BGUY71
Re: Backstab issues.
10/06/2009 01:00 PM CDT
I don't think it was too drastic for me last night. I'll be going again today, but I believe my BS was low 20s when ME/LE locked with BS at 145, ME 110, LE 124. So it did take a bit of extra time to lock BS, but it wasn't too bad. If hatchlings should be right up my alley stealth wise (164 hide/stalk, 145 BS) it could maybe use a slight boost, but not as drastic as I thought.
ALGOTHI
Re: Backstab issues.
10/06/2009 02:00 PM CDT
Below are posts from July that I posted in the Plat Thief topic regard backstab.
Hiding: 412 08% deliberative (11/34)
Stalking: 423 06% intrigued (16/34)
Backstab: 387 22% concentrating (9/34)
After about 45 minutes in Orc Reivers in the daytime. I completely ignored the warcats, so there were usually one or two in the room adding hiding and stalking exp.
Method used:
No active boosts aside from Confidence.
Hide/Stalk or Hunt/Stalk, engage, appraise quick, mark all, ambush sight@melee, backstab.
If the backstab did not kill the target, I waited for the stun to fade before repeating the backstab.
H>mark all rei (From PoleRange)
You carefully size up the orc reiver, gauging its overall perception.
As you consider stealing from the orc reiver, you believe it'll be troublesome to be unnoticed.
You also eye the orc reiver over, trying to discern how much wealth it is carrying.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider hiding around the orc reiver, you believe it has a low chance of catching you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider an attempt to stalk the orc reiver, you believe it has a low chance of catching you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider a stealthy assault on the orc reiver, it should be possible.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
This info is skewed due to confidence...
H>smirk
You smirk to yourself, knowing you are at the absolute top of your game.
You don't take any extra comfort in this unfamiliar territory.
Thoughts: Thanks to the extra Backstab bits generated by Ambush Sight this method is definitely workable, if I kept this up Id be able to keep Backstab moving just fine. Though it would be an extremely long time to get it to locked, its not needed. Still, trailing 36 ranks behind stalking I feel I should be earning a bit more bits per Backstab attempt then I am currently seeing.
Hiding: 412 27% absorbing (15/34)
Stalking: 423 28% very engaged (23/34)
Backstab: 387 39% intrigued (16/34)
About 45 minutes in Orc Raiders.
Method:
A little different since this area is indoors and I start at Pole. I had Khri Spar running since these guys are a little too hard to kill otherwise. Spar generates an excellent Backstab boost.
Hide/Stalk, Engage, Ambush Dirt@Melee, Backstab.
If the backstab did not kill the target, I waited for the stun to fade before repeating the backstab.
You close to melee range on a red bear orc raider.
H>mark all raid
You carefully size up the orc raider, gauging its overall perception.
As you consider stealing from the orc raider, you believe you're pretty sure you'll be caught.
You also eye the orc raider over, trying to discern how much wealth it is carrying.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider hiding around the orc raider, you believe it should be possible.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider an attempt to stalk the orc raider, you believe it should be possible to stalk.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider a stealthy assault on the orc raider, it's about even odds.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
This info is skewed due to confidence, Khri and urban boosts...
H>smirk
You smirk to yourself, knowing you are at the absolute top of your game.
You take small comfort...
Thoughts: Surprisingly Backstab surpassed Hiding in this test. This is most likely due to the fact that I didn't have multiple targets in the room, though Backstab's Hybrid mechs combined with Spar's damage enhancement may be a factor as well. Overall I feel Stalking exp is at where it should for something that requires max confidence and a slight urban bonus to stealth hunt for me. Backstab (and to a degree hiding) feel like they should be learning better.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Hiding: 412 08% deliberative (11/34)
Stalking: 423 06% intrigued (16/34)
Backstab: 387 22% concentrating (9/34)
After about 45 minutes in Orc Reivers in the daytime. I completely ignored the warcats, so there were usually one or two in the room adding hiding and stalking exp.
Method used:
No active boosts aside from Confidence.
Hide/Stalk or Hunt/Stalk, engage, appraise quick, mark all, ambush sight@melee, backstab.
If the backstab did not kill the target, I waited for the stun to fade before repeating the backstab.
H>mark all rei (From PoleRange)
You carefully size up the orc reiver, gauging its overall perception.
As you consider stealing from the orc reiver, you believe it'll be troublesome to be unnoticed.
You also eye the orc reiver over, trying to discern how much wealth it is carrying.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider hiding around the orc reiver, you believe it has a low chance of catching you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider an attempt to stalk the orc reiver, you believe it has a low chance of catching you.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider a stealthy assault on the orc reiver, it should be possible.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
This info is skewed due to confidence...
H>smirk
You smirk to yourself, knowing you are at the absolute top of your game.
You don't take any extra comfort in this unfamiliar territory.
Thoughts: Thanks to the extra Backstab bits generated by Ambush Sight this method is definitely workable, if I kept this up Id be able to keep Backstab moving just fine. Though it would be an extremely long time to get it to locked, its not needed. Still, trailing 36 ranks behind stalking I feel I should be earning a bit more bits per Backstab attempt then I am currently seeing.
Hiding: 412 27% absorbing (15/34)
Stalking: 423 28% very engaged (23/34)
Backstab: 387 39% intrigued (16/34)
About 45 minutes in Orc Raiders.
Method:
A little different since this area is indoors and I start at Pole. I had Khri Spar running since these guys are a little too hard to kill otherwise. Spar generates an excellent Backstab boost.
Hide/Stalk, Engage, Ambush Dirt@Melee, Backstab.
If the backstab did not kill the target, I waited for the stun to fade before repeating the backstab.
You close to melee range on a red bear orc raider.
H>mark all raid
You carefully size up the orc raider, gauging its overall perception.
As you consider stealing from the orc raider, you believe you're pretty sure you'll be caught.
You also eye the orc raider over, trying to discern how much wealth it is carrying.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider hiding around the orc raider, you believe it should be possible.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider an attempt to stalk the orc raider, you believe it should be possible to stalk.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider a stealthy assault on the orc raider, it's about even odds.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
This info is skewed due to confidence, Khri and urban boosts...
H>smirk
You smirk to yourself, knowing you are at the absolute top of your game.
You take small comfort...
Thoughts: Surprisingly Backstab surpassed Hiding in this test. This is most likely due to the fact that I didn't have multiple targets in the room, though Backstab's Hybrid mechs combined with Spar's damage enhancement may be a factor as well. Overall I feel Stalking exp is at where it should for something that requires max confidence and a slight urban bonus to stealth hunt for me. Backstab (and to a degree hiding) feel like they should be learning better.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
RUBYTU
Re: Backstab issues.
10/06/2009 08:11 PM CDT
It took me 47 minutes to lock backstab in Hatchlings.
Stats:
Strength : 20 + Reflex : 29 +
Agility : 27 + Charisma : 12
Discipline : 25 + Wisdom : 23
Intelligence : 24 Stamina : 20
Khri used:
Focus, Hasten, Darken
Skills at start:
Backstab: 121 57% dabbling (1/34) +0.00
Hiding: 185 35% dabbling (1/34) +0.00
Medium Edged: 140 67% dabbling (1/34) +0.00
Stalking: 180 39% dabbling (1/34) +0.00
Last updated: 07:55:33 PM
Hiding locked 33 minutes in.
Backstab: 121 80% very focused (21/34) +0.23
Hiding: 185 51% mind lock (34/34) +0.16
Medium Edged: 140 83% very focused (21/34) +0.16
Stalking: 180 57% focused (20/34) +0.18
Last updated: 08:27:52 PM
Backstab finally locked at 47 minutes, my script stops training Stalking when it hits 30/34.
Backstab: 121 89% mind lock (34/34) +0.32
Hiding: 185 58% mind lock (34/34) +0.23
Medium Edged: 140 89% mind lock (34/34) +0.22
Stalking: 180 65% rapt (30/34) +0.26
Last updated: 08:42:04 PM
"I'm cool because I hate a cat."
Stats:
Strength : 20 + Reflex : 29 +
Agility : 27 + Charisma : 12
Discipline : 25 + Wisdom : 23
Intelligence : 24 Stamina : 20
Khri used:
Focus, Hasten, Darken
Skills at start:
Backstab: 121 57% dabbling (1/34) +0.00
Hiding: 185 35% dabbling (1/34) +0.00
Medium Edged: 140 67% dabbling (1/34) +0.00
Stalking: 180 39% dabbling (1/34) +0.00
Last updated: 07:55:33 PM
Hiding locked 33 minutes in.
Backstab: 121 80% very focused (21/34) +0.23
Hiding: 185 51% mind lock (34/34) +0.16
Medium Edged: 140 83% very focused (21/34) +0.16
Stalking: 180 57% focused (20/34) +0.18
Last updated: 08:27:52 PM
Backstab finally locked at 47 minutes, my script stops training Stalking when it hits 30/34.
Backstab: 121 89% mind lock (34/34) +0.32
Hiding: 185 58% mind lock (34/34) +0.23
Medium Edged: 140 89% mind lock (34/34) +0.22
Stalking: 180 65% rapt (30/34) +0.26
Last updated: 08:42:04 PM
"I'm cool because I hate a cat."
SUGARSNOUT
Re: Backstab issues.
10/07/2009 04:15 PM CDT
>Vinjince>>I can lock my stealth skills more quickly than I can for every other skill in the game.
I can't for a variety of reasons.
Having stealths 400 ranks below your other combats doesn't really provide an accurate comparison.
South barricade celps.
~500 hiding/stalking
This is not to say I can't train them, they just move up learning rates much slower than other combat skills like shield, parry, evasion, armors, multi (when I have 4 on me), appraisal, etc.
I can't for a variety of reasons.
Having stealths 400 ranks below your other combats doesn't really provide an accurate comparison.
South barricade celps.
~500 hiding/stalking
This is not to say I can't train them, they just move up learning rates much slower than other combat skills like shield, parry, evasion, armors, multi (when I have 4 on me), appraisal, etc.
JRSCORPION
Re: Backstab issues.
10/07/2009 04:43 PM CDT
I haven't had much trouble training backstab so far. The undead hordes have been really helpful in that regard. I've progressed from undead by reavers to north gate undead to swains to hatchlings to Leth undead in the past six weeks. I'm averaging over two ranks of BS per day.
LE 162
ME 173
LT 132
hide 247
stalk 246
BS 174
Backstabbing Leth undead or River Sprites (without stalking) and starting with LE and switching to ME when locked, and ambushing sight on every critter, I lock in this order: Hiding, LT, LE, stalking, BS, ME. Takes about 30-40 minutes of nonstop action.
LE 162
ME 173
LT 132
hide 247
stalk 246
BS 174
Backstabbing Leth undead or River Sprites (without stalking) and starting with LE and switching to ME when locked, and ambushing sight on every critter, I lock in this order: Hiding, LT, LE, stalking, BS, ME. Takes about 30-40 minutes of nonstop action.
VEE-REX
Re: Backstab issues.
10/07/2009 10:01 PM CDT
>>Having stealths 400 ranks below your other combats doesn't really provide an accurate comparison.
I'm mainly comparing them to other skills in the same range.
I don't even want to mention how fast stalking can be mind locked. I'll tell you over IMs if you want to know. :P
Vinjince Rexem'lor
I'm mainly comparing them to other skills in the same range.
I don't even want to mention how fast stalking can be mind locked. I'll tell you over IMs if you want to know. :P
Vinjince Rexem'lor
DANFORDS2
Re: Backstab issues.
10/07/2009 11:06 PM CDT
>I don't even want to mention how fast stalking can be mind locked.
I'm going to guess 15-20 seconds.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Expert Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"I've always held Elanthia's ultimate end will shortly follow after either an "Oops." or a "Hey, that's neat." from within a Moon Mage guild." ~Z
I'm going to guess 15-20 seconds.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Expert Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"I've always held Elanthia's ultimate end will shortly follow after either an "Oops." or a "Hey, that's neat." from within a Moon Mage guild." ~Z
VEE-REX
Re: Backstab issues.
10/07/2009 11:27 PM CDT
Yep, about 20 seconds.
Hiding takes about 50 seconds. My hiding is 238, stalking is 250. First aid is 251, and climbing is 248.
I haven't found a skill that locks faster than hiding and stalking for my character.
Vinjince Rexem'lor
Hiding takes about 50 seconds. My hiding is 238, stalking is 250. First aid is 251, and climbing is 248.
I haven't found a skill that locks faster than hiding and stalking for my character.
Vinjince Rexem'lor
DUNEDAIN1
Re: Backstab issues.
10/07/2009 11:51 PM CDT
My stealths are significantly lower (120-140), but I'd love to know the secret!
PUREHAND
Re: Backstab issues.
10/08/2009 08:44 AM CDT
I'd love to know the secret too. It takes me 15 minutes or so to lock my hiding and stalking in the mid 300's, and I can barely hide on stuff that teaches me with 53 disc and no armor/wounds. I get pointed almost instantly.
~ Purehand
After a long deliberation, the judge finally says, "Purehand, this court finds you innocent of the charges brought upon you."
~ Purehand
After a long deliberation, the judge finally says, "Purehand, this court finds you innocent of the charges brought upon you."
GILDR
Re: Backstab issues.
10/08/2009 09:18 AM CDT
<<I haven't had much trouble training backstab so far.>>
<<BS 174>>
I started having trouble around 400 BS.
<<BS 174>>
I started having trouble around 400 BS.
SUGARSNOUT
Re: Backstab issues.
10/09/2009 02:22 PM CDT
>I don't even want to mention how fast stalking can be mind locked.
Yeah, that stalking "maneuver" is pretty well known.
Hiding is another story, though. I'm curious.
Yeah, that stalking "maneuver" is pretty well known.
Hiding is another story, though. I'm curious.
JRSCORPION
Re: Backstab issues.
11/20/2009 01:03 PM CST
I'm the guy who said this:
*****************
I'm averaging over two ranks of BS per day.
LE 162
ME 173
LT 132
hide 247
stalk 246
BS 174
****************
Since that time I'm averaging only one rank per day. Definitely noticing the difficulty of training. I CAN lock BS by ambushing but it is FAR slower than any other skill. The way I was training before was by actually Backstabbing, not ambushing, in swarms of things that never ceased, so the one-hit kills weren't a problem for me.
Now, with 218 BS, I'd like to try the same technique, if only there is something bipedal that swarms constantly at that level. Anyone know of anything like that? Rock guardians seem perfect, there's just far too few of them.
*****************
I'm averaging over two ranks of BS per day.
LE 162
ME 173
LT 132
hide 247
stalk 246
BS 174
****************
Since that time I'm averaging only one rank per day. Definitely noticing the difficulty of training. I CAN lock BS by ambushing but it is FAR slower than any other skill. The way I was training before was by actually Backstabbing, not ambushing, in swarms of things that never ceased, so the one-hit kills weren't a problem for me.
Now, with 218 BS, I'd like to try the same technique, if only there is something bipedal that swarms constantly at that level. Anyone know of anything like that? Rock guardians seem perfect, there's just far too few of them.
CUTHALION
Re: Backstab issues.
11/20/2009 01:58 PM CST
Jrscorpion, with that backstab you can train fairly well in orc reivers outside the manor. They don't "swarm" per se, but you can hunt from kill to kill and learn decent perception along the way. When you're done training with them head on into the manor, they start to verge on swarming in there.
JRSCORPION
Re: Backstab issues.
11/23/2009 07:04 AM CST
>>Jrscorpion, with that backstab you can train fairly well in orc reivers outside the manor. They don't "swarm" per se, but you can hunt from kill to kill and learn decent perception along the way. When you're done training with them head on into the manor, they start to verge on swarming in there.
Thanks Baudo, I'm guessing that's what you were doing when I saw you there the other day... I'll give it a shot.
On a related note, I've worked in ambushing along with my normal crossbow training routine, and am once again on a 2-rank per day pace in BS. So problem solved for now.
Thanks Baudo, I'm guessing that's what you were doing when I saw you there the other day... I'll give it a shot.
On a related note, I've worked in ambushing along with my normal crossbow training routine, and am once again on a 2-rank per day pace in BS. So problem solved for now.
JRSCORPION
Re: Backstab issues.
12/03/2009 03:20 PM CST
In my last post I said I'd solved the problem of slow BS training. Well, now I've solved it better.
I still favor training BS on bipedal swarms with actual BACKSTAB instead of ambushing. Just had to find the right bipeds. El'Bain undead did the trick.
15 minutes, 24 kills, 7 boxes. Backstab, LE, hide, stalk locked. ME at 10/34 (switched after LE locked), LT at 21/34 (was ambushing sight while stabbin).
Backstab 232
LE 209
ME 219
Now I have boxes to open, and top confidence.
*15 minutes to lock BS.*
I still favor training BS on bipedal swarms with actual BACKSTAB instead of ambushing. Just had to find the right bipeds. El'Bain undead did the trick.
15 minutes, 24 kills, 7 boxes. Backstab, LE, hide, stalk locked. ME at 10/34 (switched after LE locked), LT at 21/34 (was ambushing sight while stabbin).
Backstab 232
LE 209
ME 219
Now I have boxes to open, and top confidence.
*15 minutes to lock BS.*
TRINEAN
JRSCORPION
Re: Backstab issues.
12/03/2009 05:21 PM CST
Undead at El'Bain's stop. Leathery grey ghouls, preserved zombified Prydaen/Rakash, and asisen Rakash Rangers.
Watch out for the Rangers, they're handy with a short bow.
Watch out for the Rangers, they're handy with a short bow.
FREEWILLJ
Re: Backstab issues.
12/16/2009 06:12 PM CST
>>Yeah, that stalking "maneuver" is pretty well known.
I don't suppose someone would email me this information? Please.
I don't suppose someone would email me this information? Please.
URUTU
Re: Backstab issues.
01/09/2010 12:26 AM CST
<<In my last post I said I'd solved the problem of slow BS training. Well, now I've solved it better... El'Bain undead did the trick.>>
I wanted to vouch for the fact that there is something about lyras's undead that trains backstab better than other creatures of similar level. Not sure what the difference is, but I have been having similar excellent results with the undead swarms out the shard west gate. Unctuous zombies, ghoulish slayers, fleshreapers, and all that type.
Fleshreapers move backstab particularly well, and they're hard to kill, so you get a lot of mileage out one of them. Backstab still lags hide/stalk, but with fleshreapers it's much better than it was. The swarm as a whole moves hide/stalk amazingly well. Dancers have been kind of a stealth letdown, although their boxes are perfect for me right now.
If you can handle lyras's undead then I recommend trying them out for stealth.
I wanted to vouch for the fact that there is something about lyras's undead that trains backstab better than other creatures of similar level. Not sure what the difference is, but I have been having similar excellent results with the undead swarms out the shard west gate. Unctuous zombies, ghoulish slayers, fleshreapers, and all that type.
Fleshreapers move backstab particularly well, and they're hard to kill, so you get a lot of mileage out one of them. Backstab still lags hide/stalk, but with fleshreapers it's much better than it was. The swarm as a whole moves hide/stalk amazingly well. Dancers have been kind of a stealth letdown, although their boxes are perfect for me right now.
If you can handle lyras's undead then I recommend trying them out for stealth.
JRSCORPION
Re: Backstab issues.
01/25/2010 10:10 AM CST
Well, it's been about six weeks since my last update...
El'Bain undead have been good for over 100 ranks of BS from the mid 200s to mid 300s. It now takes over 60 kills to lock backstab using LE, and 90 using ME. It takes a painfully long time, and hide/stalk lock long, long before backstab does.
I can kill the stronger Theren undead (unctuous zombies and friends), but they kill me back, so moving up to them isn't really an option yet.
If anyone knows of something bipedal and preferably swarmy of a level between preserved zombies and unctuous zombies, I'm all ears.
El'Bain undead have been good for over 100 ranks of BS from the mid 200s to mid 300s. It now takes over 60 kills to lock backstab using LE, and 90 using ME. It takes a painfully long time, and hide/stalk lock long, long before backstab does.
I can kill the stronger Theren undead (unctuous zombies and friends), but they kill me back, so moving up to them isn't really an option yet.
If anyone knows of something bipedal and preferably swarmy of a level between preserved zombies and unctuous zombies, I'm all ears.
GRIM45
Re: Backstab issues.
01/25/2010 11:12 AM CST
>>I can kill the stronger Theren undead (unctuous zombies and friends), but they kill me back, so moving up to them isn't really an option yet.
>>If anyone knows of something bipedal and preferably swarmy of a level between preserved zombies and unctuous zombies, I'm all ears.
Train defenses.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
Also: Moo.
>>If anyone knows of something bipedal and preferably swarmy of a level between preserved zombies and unctuous zombies, I'm all ears.
Train defenses.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
Also: Moo.
JRSCORPION
Re: Backstab issues.
01/26/2010 04:44 AM CST
>>Train defenses.
I train defenses more than I train backstab, evasion's 15 ranks ahead of it. Unfortunately, it seems that for decent learning I really have to BS something above-level.
I'm sure that in the combat rewrite it will be made feasible to train backstab at-level with other combat skills, but for now, I backstab in things that would decimate me if they could only see me coming.
I train defenses more than I train backstab, evasion's 15 ranks ahead of it. Unfortunately, it seems that for decent learning I really have to BS something above-level.
I'm sure that in the combat rewrite it will be made feasible to train backstab at-level with other combat skills, but for now, I backstab in things that would decimate me if they could only see me coming.
RUBYTU
Re: Backstab issues.
01/26/2010 08:52 AM CST
I do not train like most thieves. It took me a while to figure out how to backstab properly and it was far behind my weapons/defenses. Now that I've figured it out, it has surpassed them.
Basically I ambush "(combo) (body part)" with every single weapon I train, starting with the easiest body part (found on Elanthipedia). If I hit a fail message I go back down one. Five masterfully positioneds I move up a body part.
It works quite well.
You drop some gum.
Jaedren picks up some dirt-coated gum.
Jaedren begins chewing the gum.
Jaedren suddenly fades away.
You say, "Oh gross."
Basically I ambush "(combo) (body part)" with every single weapon I train, starting with the easiest body part (found on Elanthipedia). If I hit a fail message I go back down one. Five masterfully positioneds I move up a body part.
It works quite well.
You drop some gum.
Jaedren picks up some dirt-coated gum.
Jaedren begins chewing the gum.
Jaedren suddenly fades away.
You say, "Oh gross."
JRSCORPION
Re: Backstab issues.
01/29/2010 03:09 PM CST
>>If anyone knows of something bipedal and preferably swarmy of a level between preserved zombies and unctuous zombies, I'm all ears.
To answer my own question: Orc Raiders.
Not terribly swarmy, but locked BS after 36 kills, which is about half of what it was taking with El'Bain undead. Hopefully these can bridge the gap until unctuous zombies/fleshreapers.
330 Backstab.
To answer my own question: Orc Raiders.
Not terribly swarmy, but locked BS after 36 kills, which is about half of what it was taking with El'Bain undead. Hopefully these can bridge the gap until unctuous zombies/fleshreapers.
330 Backstab.
SZODRIN
Re: Backstab issues.
02/21/2010 02:49 AM CST
So I'm guessing having left in October and recently returning that the command for which backstab is named is still the worst way to train it?
WMZILDJAN
JMF90
Re: Backstab issues.
02/21/2010 09:38 AM CST
>So I'm guessing having left in October and recently returning that the command for which backstab is named is still the worst way to train it?
Yep. Ambush bodypart is the only way to move it quickly.
Yep. Ambush bodypart is the only way to move it quickly.
SZODRIN
Re: Backstab issues.
04/05/2010 10:07 PM CDT
So, I was reading the complaint folder, and noticed someone mention that apparently the GMs are going to drastically alter backstab (they used the term nerf ). Could someone point me to the post? I've been looking but don't see it anywhere. I'm not too worried, I'd give anything the current team did at least the benefit of the doubt
“Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.” - Terry Pratchett
“Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.” - Terry Pratchett
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: Backstab issues.
04/05/2010 10:25 PM CDT
I don't know specifically where it's been said, but I've seen at least a few GM posts noting that backstab in its current incarnation ignores global caps and as a result will need to be nerfed for the sake of balance, same as anything else that breaks said caps.
We have enough youth. What we need is a fountain of smart.
We have enough youth. What we need is a fountain of smart.
JMF90
Re: Backstab issues.
04/06/2010 11:22 AM CDT
>I've seen at least a few GM posts noting that backstab in its current incarnation ignores global caps and as a result will need to be nerfed for the sake of balance, same as anything else that breaks said caps.
Pretty much this. I know Zeyurn has mentioned it fairly recently.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
Pretty much this. I know Zeyurn has mentioned it fairly recently.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
SHADOW7988
Re: Backstab issues.
04/06/2010 11:46 AM CDT
Looked through quite a few old posts in various folders and can't find the rednames post. However I remember it being discussed, and it seemed that with certain concepts of the new combat system, backstab was considered over powered, and further not in line with the spirit of what new combat system was for/about and it would be overhauled to fit within that new concept.
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Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
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Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
