No, Elothians should just become as strong as a Tog with the same strength. Thats the way it SHOULD be, and the way it DOES work in just about every aspect of the game. The only place where it is different is in encumberance. I don't agree with it. 1 bazillion strength for a Tog should be 1 bazillion strength for a Gnome.

Drakkenn Rarenth, a Tog

<<If you get the same +2 to your overall stats, sure. It's not worth it. Trust me. :P >>

Okay then, now if Togs get that stat imbalance corrected, which I believe was instituted in the first place because of thier much larger capacity to carry items, should the playing field be leveled in that area and the carrying capacities for each race, rank by rank be evened out because the Togs would no longer have that imbalance?

Garret

>>should the playing field be leveled in that area and the carrying capacities for each race, rank by rank be evened out because the Togs would no longer have that imbalance?

Like Drachus said, but yes, stat by stat, that's what we're pushing for.

>Yay! More fluff time!

Not nessicarily. I think what happens now is that Togs have a bonus to encumberance or something, and everyone else is normal. What would happen would be that Togs would go back down to normal, not everyone else come up to Togs. But hey, we dunno whats gonna happen. Hopefully something good!

As I stated the last several times this same thread has started up, I would agree to the abolishment of the racial encumberance modifier charts on one condition ... you want balance, we go ALL the way.

The smaller the race, the lower the point where adding strength incurs increasingly higher penalties to their agility/reflex results. Look up the word "musclebound" if you need explanation as to why.

Putting the same muscles as Arnold Schwarzzeneger (I just KNOW I screwed his name up but I dont feel like looking it up) on a Gnome would make them a powerful little ball that had to evade by rolling around on the ground rather than just bobbing and weaving.

I think instead we should keep the charts and continue in the same direction ... Togs get an advantage to encumberance because of their larger frame, but Gnomes get an inherent advantage avoiding to being hit because they are a smaller target (with all the shades of grey in between, same as encumberance).

Then apply similar differences to other stats. A Tog can get as many intelligence "points" as an Elothean, yes ... but because a Tog's brain is smoother with fewer nerve "superhighways" between the hemispheres, they get less per point than the Elotheans who have brains almost gouged out with convolutions (any biologist will tell you its the severity of folds in the brain's surface and the extent of its internal connections, not its size, which determines mental capacity ... hence why a rat can be smarter than creatures with brains ten times the size of the rats' brain).

Because of their natural litheness, Elves and Prydaens gain more per point from agility and reflex. In this case, the other end of the spectrum would be Dwarves, due to their compacted and dense frames.

The races would also have a similar spectrum for the effects of charisma, with Dwarves and Kaldarans at the top end (being the boisterous and outspoken ones they are) and the "quieter" races such as Elotheans and Prydaen at the other end.

Halflings and dwarves, tough little buggers that they are, would be on the gifted end of the stamina spectrum. Gnomes and possibly Elotheans would get the short end of that stick.

Please don't argue all my choices above, just making some shots from the hip right here on the spot to try and explain the concept. In no way is it a complete and polished suggestion. Left a lot out, too.

~~~Krin

Sure, if you put Arnold's muscles on a gnome, the gnome wouldn't be able to move. But if a gnome trained harder than Arnold did, he would develop muscles that would fit perfectly well on his body. Yes, there is a point where muscular development is no longer possible. Nobody in the game has reached that point yet, however. For the sake of argument, say the cap is 100. A Tog's 100 and a Gnome's 100 should be the same. They are just used in different ways on the body. It is hard to know the exact possibilities without a more accurate accounting of the anatomy and physiology of the varied races of the realms; so far the only anatomy book I have heard of is for the S'kra. The difference between the races SHOULD be the amount of training that one puts into it. Gnomes are a very weak race, Togs a very strong one. Will a Tog get to the Strength cap quickly? Yes, naturally. Will a Gnome make it there at all? Probably not. The inverse is true, as well. Will a Gnome cap wisdom (or whatever their 'good' stat is) quick? Yep! Will a Tog cap wisdom? Never. Heh, it costs me 64 TDP's to go from 16 to 17 intelligence, I can't imagine what 99 to 100 would be like.

>>Krin's post

That's what the plus and minus TDP modifiers are supposed to simulate.

>>BUT, while this shows that Tog and Gnome strengths won't be the same with the same stats it has nothing to do with the current encumbrance penalties. Leverage would be involved with picking the item up but once you're wearing it there is no difference.

Like I said before, this is what the + and - stat modifiers are immitating in the first place. Besides, the opposite of that is also true in some instances. Less distance equals less effort exerted. Shorter guys, or guys with short legs have a much easier time squatting higher weights than tall guys or guys with longer legs because of the shorter distance they have to move the weight.

[few days late, but hey ... I was out of town :-P]

>>BARBAROUS>>Like I said before, this is what the + and - stat modifiers are immitating in the first place.

They are only half of it.

Let's presume the GM's intend for the races to perform as they do now. Eliminating the racial weight modifier chart means the only thing that changes is their ability to shoulder burden goes up. Well, you are now getting MORE per TDP point than you did before. To maintain the balance, TDP costs would have to be modified. In that Gnome's case, the penalty goes up.

So for the same number of TDP's you will have fewer points of strength. Fewer points of strength means higher weapon RT's, lower performance in certain skills/abilities/systems (climbing, swimming, forging and the like) and quicker fatigue. You will be worse off than you are now.

But it sounds like you want the table to go away with no adjustment to TDP costs. Which means you want something for nothing.

Sorry, but I just can't buy that, when the balance is fine as it is now. A Gnome shouldn't be carrying a freakin store full of goods on their back, plain and simple. And for those who complain, I say you just don't know how to do it right. They say the same things about halflings ... and my 1st circle Halfling Thief did just fine in goblins, thank you very much. Gained 2 circles his first couple of days out. ;-)

You just have to quit trying to play a 1st circle character as if they were 50th circle already and had earned all the perks that go with it. It's a small race, it has some drawbacks. You want the strength of a Tog ... PLAY ONE.

Simple.

The smaller races pay for their strength deficits by gaining perks in things such as agility, reflex and mentals. Hence my suggestion in the other post that the other stats should have similar racial differences.

Another possibility is flagged armor. Just like only a Tog can wear an ogre hauberk, make some armor custom-tailored for the "little people" (Dwarves, Halflings and Gnomes). Whatever flag it is that tells the system whether they get the 55% (larger races) or 27% (smaller races) worn item modifier would also dictate who can wear these special armors. If you have the "small" flag (27%) you can wear them ... otherwise you can't (too small).

A "munchkin brand" WC set of leathers would have the same protection factors but only ... say ... 60% of the base weight. Since WC's weigh 550 stones, they currently weigh 302-303 stones when worn by the larger races and 148-149 stones for the smaller. The small set is 60% of the base weight, 330 stones, making them 89 stones when worn by the smaller races.

And since its the base weight getting modified, these special armors are also lighter in the backpack as well as on the body. And since only the "little people" can wear them, it would effectively be a bonus to their TDP spending.

That would be a start, I think.

~~~Krin

Taking away the racial encumbrance chart and leaving TDP costs as is (except to balance the togs) would be acceptable. Keeping the encumbrance chart and TDP costs as is (except for the togs again), and give similer perks/penalties to all the rest of the races/stats would be acceptable as well. But only STR/STA and encumbrance being efected by race is unacceptable. The smaller races get penalties without corresponding perks which is unfair.

~Daergoth

Encumberance isnt a straight up bonus.Togs have a higher threshold per strength and stamina points,kaldar and skra more,then humans,and so on and so forth.Kinda like togs have a higher multiplier.


Drachus

>>Gonif>>Are you just guessing on this or can togs wear them now? Last time my tog tried to wear one, it was "too big" for her.

No, I was told this by someone who said they had done it. But I guess now I need to ask to make sure they just didn't find a bug. You want to know who, I will tell you, but not here ... and pretty sure you know them. ;-)

And, Gonif ... when I am guessing I say as much, thank you. Please stick to the suggestion rather than just nitpicking in an attempt to derail it. Thanks again.

~~~Krin

So, what you are saying is that you have no problem with encumbrance racial differences, but you are requesting that races get a defensive bonus based on race body size, and are using the encumbrance factor as a reason, right?

-Zak

>>So, what you are saying is that you have no problem with encumbrance racial differences, but you are requesting that races get a defensive bonus based on race body size, and are using the encumbrance factor as a reason, right?

No, it doesn't have to be defensive bonuses, I used that as an example, basically either all races need special modifiers for their stats, or none should. As long as it's fair all around and not unbalanced like it is now. It's not even all physical, there's mentals too, a tog who works their mentals to be equal to an elothians doesn't have anything work differently with their tiny tog brain then a giant elothian superbrain. a mental=a mental reguardless of race. it should be all or nothing, not just one race/stat system then benifits some and penalizes others without any sort of counter balance.

~Daergoth

~Daergoth

>>Gonif>>Stop being so paranoid.

<chuckle>

Can I quote you on that? :-D

~~~Krin
:-P

The LAST time this came up a GM came in and said she'd look into it. This thread is pretty much just to catch up the people who didn't discuss it the first time, nothing new at all has been mentioned here. So sorry Krin, even though you're a big strapping Kaldar who gets more benifit than any other race from this system, I'm afraid it's likely to change sometime in the future.

~Daergoth

Just so misinformation isn't spread around any more than it already is, S'kra and I'm fairly sure least one other race have the same benefit as Kaldar, and Gor'togs definately outstrip us.

Toren

>>It is NOT a double penalty. It is the SAME penalty split into two parts.

How is it not a double penalty? Gnome spends a bazillion TDPs to up strength. Gnome gets far less from each point than a Tog (or any larger race) would and for a much greater TDP cost.

>>They could have based it ALL on TDP's, but the TDP factors we have would have to be changed to account for it

Currently it is all based on TDPs, except for encumbrance which we've been petitioning to change so as to get our TDPs evened out. There's no reason the TDP costs would need to be adjusted. The gnome's penalty to burden would be their insanely high TDP costs to train strength and stamina.

>>If you want them changed, then you must show that the current TOTAL effect is undesirable and show why, besides just "I can't do as much as JohhnyTog because he can carry more" (well, duh, he's three times your size ...).

It's undesirable because we Togs are penalized for it like no other race is.

>>Once you have shown the total effect is imbalanced then you can adjust one factor or the other to get the total effect in line with where it should be. Otherwise, dropping the racial encumberance charts modifies that total effect and you have to balance it back to where it was before by adjusting TDP costs.

Again, you wouldn't need to adjust the TDP costs. Those would be the racial penalties and bonuses for it being based solely on strength/stamina, i.e. most Togs will be able to carry more because of their higher strength and stamina due to the ease of training them. Most gnomes would be able to carry less due to their lower strength and stamina due to the pain in the ass it is to train them. However, if a gnome worked his butt off and caught up to the Tog in them, the gnome would be able to carry just as much as the Tog. Again, as it is now, it's a double penalty for the gnome. If he trains his butt off and gets high strength, stamina, he should be able to use them just as well as a Tog.

>>And, as I also showed before, you DON'T want that.

Oh, but we do.

the encumbrance bonuses/penalties, while they might seem a bit unfair, really do have a good base in reality. let's think about the difference between the carrying capacity of a 10 foot tall tog with a 3 foot wide shoulder span, and a 2 to 3 foot tall gnome with a 12 inch shoulder span. assuming both of them have the exact same stats, and you were moving, which one would you want carrying your refrigerator? i'd have a damn hard time believing that a gnome could lift a refrigerator, but i wouldn't doubt that a tog could lift one and carry it for quite some time without too much of a problem.

strength and stamina, while damned important in lifting (and far more importantly in an encumbrance situation) carrying for a prolonged period of time, aren't the only concideration. a tog is quite simply going to have better leverage and a far larger back area where backpacks are going to be held. a gnome's 2 square feet of back versus a tog's 12 square feet of back space is simply too great a difference to go only on strength and stamina. there's only so much that you can fit on a gnome. togs were bred for heavy lifting and manual labor, gnomes figured out ways around the labor, like building wooden scaffolds with simple cranes on top of them.

this brings up other problems though...like the idea of a gnome wielding a flamberge, or a tog trying to hold a throwing knife, but the chances of weapons being different weapon classes to different races (or even unusable) are pretty damned slim, so let's just pretend i didn't say anything about it

Jaebom --and leave s'kra outta this, i'm already trying hard to keep my encumbrance down

i never said he wouldn't...i simply said it would be easier by far for the tog to move it...i assumed the refrigerator would be empty already anyway.

Jaebom --who the hell moves a full refrigerator?