I'd like to get your opinions on the name and overall tone of the Paladin guild skill.

WHAT IT IS:
This will be the skill of using the Paladin's sacred soul to various effects. This will influence most every Paladin ability short of magic. The theme is that the Paladin sacrifices some of his spiritual power and produces manifest holiness of some form in its wake.

WHAT IT MIGHT BE:
I'm currently in an internal debate about whether it should be presented as "spiritual wisdom," like holy occult lore, or presented as raw, naked expressions of the Paladin's soul strength. This would influence both name choice and how revised abilities message. This is not to say we can't play with both concepts in the guild, merely that one will take the limelight.

WHY NOT ASCETICISM:
Previously we pitched the name Asceticism as the guild skill. While it works in the sense of reflecting someone who is devoted to a lifestyle to grow their spirituality, it also has implications that aren't really reflected in the guild or the game. In a pinch I'd be happy to continue using it, but I think we can get to the same place without suggesting Paladins should doff their items.

POTENTIAL NAMES:
Immanance
Soulshaping
Arete
Emanation
Sacred Signs
Spiritual Might
(Or others. Feel free to suggest.)

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

I was never a huge fan of the asceticism vibe, and am happy to see a shift.

Speaking personally, I would like to see more emphasis placed on the Paladins connection and impact with the world, and the interaction of the soul through the mortal lens instead of a more Divine focused vibe.

Samsaren

Conviction is a good name. I think Emanation works well with the actual mechanic of what is occurring though.

>>I could potentially warm to immanence or emanation with some explanation of how they apply in the context of Paladins.

Emanation comes from two directions. Emanationism is a thing in religious thought, and Hermetic philosophy and its off-shoots sometimes posit wonder-working through willful manipulation of divine emanations. The other side of the coin is the visual of the Paladin's holiness emanating from his soul.

Immanence is in religious thought the opposite of transcendence when trying to describe the nature of divinity. Transcendental thinking is that God exists outside the universe, Immanence posits that God is active and suffuses reality. In practical terms, it'd refer to the Paladin bringing immanence of the abstract realm of the divine down into to the concrete.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

I like "conviction" too - where a cleric shows "devotion" the paladin shows the "conviction" of their soul and themselves.

Yeah, I like "conviction"

JMO

Respectfully,

Player of Cristalyn and others

Conviction is growing on me. Probably a race between Conviction and Immanence right now (of course, still open to other suggestions!).

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

I prefer Conviction over Immanence (and others suggested) because it's easier described and more common in the vernacular. Keep it simple for such a foundational part of the game.

Nikpack

>>DR-Armifer: Conviction is growing on me. Probably a race between Conviction and Immanence right now (of course, still open to other suggestions!).

When I first saw Conviction suggested, I liked it (it does make an interesting contrast with clerical devotion), but the more I think about it, Conviction seems like an odd name for a skill. Conviction is more of a state of mind, and it's neither unique to Paladins nor something that would be derived from ranks.

1. The act of convincing one of the truth of something; especially, the act of convincing of error; confutation.
2. The state of being convinced or fully persuaded; strong belief on the ground of satisfactory reasons or evidence; the conscious assent of the mind; settled persuasion; a fixed or firm belief: as, an opinion amounting to conviction
3. Specifically The state of being convinced that one is or has been acting in opposition to conscience; the state of being convicted of wrong-doing or sin; strong admonition of the conscience; religious compunction.

Moreover, Conviction doesn't tie in as strongly to the underlying lore (as currently understood) for how Paladin supernatural abilities work: material manifestations of the sanctified soul, or as Armifer put it, "bringing the abstract realm of the divine down into to the concrete." Thematically, Immanence (or even Emanation) would be a better description of that concept.


>>Nikpack: I prefer Conviction over Immanence (and others suggested) because it's easier described and more common in the vernacular. Keep it simple for such a foundational part of the game.

While it's true that immanence is not as commonly used as conviction, it wouldn't be the first skill name with a relatively obscure meaning. (Theurgy comes to mind.)

As an aside, one of the nice things about DragonRealms is that it's one of the few video games from which I occasionally learn new words or concepts.

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> When I first saw Conviction suggested, I liked it (it does make an interesting contrast with clerical devotion), but the more I think about it, Conviction seems like an odd name for a skill. Conviction is more of a state of mind, and it's neither unique to Paladins nor something that would be derived from ranks.

The same can be said about devotion. In fact, summoning, astrology, empathy, scouting, inner fire, etc... are all things that can be performed by some or most guilds; however, only one guild can claim to be the best at it. Only one guild can claim to take it to the supernatural level in a way that gives them full and utter control over that thing.

For example, almost all characters exercise devotion to a certain god when getting favors, but only clerics really integrate devotion into their daily lives in way that makes it a part of them. Even paladins can't make that claim since the paladin-god relationship feels very one-sided. Conversely, almost all characters have a set of guiding principals that they adhere to, but only paladins really integrate those principals into their state of being (soul) that lets them use it as fuel and power. Even clerics can't make that claim since their god really doesn't require them to adhere to a set of principals of the cleric's own choosing.

I think 2 really applies. Paladins have drunk the cool-aid of their order. They are the fanatic. They are the judge dredd. They believe they are right, but that core conviction is what gives them power. It's their rock, and it will not and cannot change. (That's an argument that picking an order should be a life-long decision, maybe before you're allowed to join the paladin's guild at all).

> Moreover, Conviction doesn't tie in as strongly to the underlying lore (as currently understood) for how Paladin supernatural abilities work: material manifestations of the sanctified soul,

I get this. I understand if that's a good reason to throw out conviction, but I also think it's an approach that further separates them from clerics, and I think that justifies a little retcon.

> While it's true that immanence is not as commonly used as conviction, it wouldn't be the first skill name with a relatively obscure meaning. (Theurgy comes to mind.)

Yeah, but I'd argue that Theurgy was the wrong word to use for clerics. You don't talk about theurgy rituals. You talk about devotion rituals or communions. You talk about devotion levels. https://elanthipedia.play.net/Devotion

Thuergy is really a one-shot.

> As an aside, one of the nice things about DragonRealms is that it's one of the few video games from which I occasionally learn new words or concepts.

Maybe we should rename scouting to wonderlust. I was being snarky, but that would be a kind of interesting change. Rangers could "wander" to train it in a "nature-ways" like method. They randomly travel and "teleport" somewhere else. They could try to aim in a direction, and skill could affect range and success.

Okay, okay. I digress. I like conviction, and I think it works; however, I think the name of the skill is far less important than what the skill actually does.

>Least important, but still a personal consideration, it amused me to invoke the Hermetic Sciences (Alchemy, Astrology, Theurgy) across multiple magic guilds.

Heh.

I'm a fan of conviction because it sells the idea that all the soul stuff Paladins tend to struggle with are self-inflicted more than an extra-ordinary power that is creating the rules for them, which is kinda how I saw the soul working anyway.

I also like the idea of conviction because it can be pretty open ended. The Paladin has to be dedicated to something, but the what isn't necessarily set in stone. That way, you can have those Paladins who have a conviction about might making right or the ends justifying the means right alongside Paladins with convictions about peace being the ultimate goal or protecting the weak at all costs.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

If it were down to those two, I would choose integrity. Theosis sounds too close to Theurgy.

As an aside, I greatly look forward to the exhanges that will come out of this.

> A paladin arrives.

> Paladin says, "I tried to circle, but Verika says I need to work on my integrity. Would anyone mind teaching this?"

> Bard says, "Yeah, I thought I saw you at the party in the Bard's guild last night. I'm surprised she didn't demote you."

> [Much laughter ensues]

>I'm kinda a fan of Arete too.

I think Arete is the closest fit to what it is actually (planned on) being used for, but I don't love that word.

Just my opinion!

~ L

It makes me think of White Wolf’s Mage. Can I be a Matter Paladin?

Javac
That one guy

If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.

I could get behind Arete or Theosis. Not big on Integrity.

Samsaren

>DR-ARMIFER: Theosis...

I think this might be a good underline to how differently people view the lore and their characters. From talking to a bunch of Paladins, I think there's a pretty wide range of interpretations as to what Paladins in DR land are all about.

I don't know if this is intentional, but it may be something to consider when spit balling.

I like Theosis. What's the point of playing a text game if you don't get to type/experience weird and obscure words?

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https://elanthipedia.play.net/Main_Page

>>When I google it the first definition was 'a ridge'. Not really an explosively helpful word, in this case.

If it really comes down to it, I don't mind Paladin players getting a brief lesson on moral philosophy.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

This is a new skill we will have to learn? So once we name it we have to come up with ways to learn it? Not trying to jump ahead, just trying to understand the concept of what we are doing. Thanks

- Felicini

How about invictus?

It's got the 'old school' latin flair, and the poem seems somewhat relevant to the Paladin code. But I freely admit it's been years since I read it so I might be wrong.