I've got a few small QoL projects for Paladins that I'm working on, but I want to brainstorm some ideas for a system that utilizes your guild only skill, Ascetisism.

I vaguely recall Faiths being a Paladin system that never got developed, and it seems to go with Ascetisism. So, what kind of abilities are Paladin-y, that we can make Faiths?

My current idea is that they will be linked to specific aspects, using favor offerings as fodder. It will utilize the existing soul pool, and cost will vary based on dark/neutral/light aspect and your last favor. If you have your last favor from a dark aspect, dark aspect faiths are cheaper and light aspects are more expensive, and vice versa. Neutral aspect favors will make neutral aspect faiths slightly cheaper, but won't make anything more expensive.

So, throw out some ideas, and link them to a specific god. Obviously, this project is no where near completion, I haven't even submitted a proposal yet, because I need some ideas.

Javac
That one guy

If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.

In real life Asceticism (It seems to be spelled with two 'c's and two 's's) is defined as severe self-discipline and avoidance of all forms of indulgence, typically for religious reasons.

I'm trying to know what the concept of this is in DR, I'm guessing there is a lot of parallel because why else name it thus, but sometimes things of a genre don't always transfer over the same way.

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"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

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"Phelim, what have I wrought?"
GM NaOHHI
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Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 S.V.o.L.t.R

First: I'm over the moon about any Paladin development! Thanks!

Second: I'm curious to learn more about these Faiths and how they differ from glyphs. Here's the Elanthipedia post on Faiths for reference if anyone else is interested in the original concept -- https://elanthipedia.play.net/Faiths

So Faiths tap into the soul pool, like glyphs, but also provide a buff or debuff based on the last favor and/or chosen god? Will they be like ALIGN for clerics, as an earlier poster suggested, or more like a low-level cyclic spell that is powered by soul instead of mana? A persistent buff with some type of outward physical descriptor like an aura would be neat (example -- "A diffuse white glow surrounds X, pulsing with heartbeat-like cadence" for a positive aspect or "A sickly greenish-black aura surrounds X" for a negative aspect).

A few ideas:

Rutilor -- "A swarm of ghostly hunting hounds fills your field of vision for an instant. You senses suddenly feel sharpened and invigorated." -- Defense/Reflex buff

Divyaush -- "A soft glow envelops your hands and you think you hear the sound of kindly laughter." -- Buff to crafting ability and possibly a LUCK boost (if Paladins will have any use for the new Luck system, that is).

Trothfang -- Large offensive buff and defensive debuff. Greater draw on soul pool/possible soul hit for calling on a negative aspect?

Will hop in if I have more ideas. Thanks again!

Cheers,

Ciroce

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We have a name for your disease. We call it a hyper-aesthetic one. You have been encouraged to over-indulge yourself in literature; and have inflamed your organs of fancy.

Just spit-balling here. I'm not claiming any originality on any of these ideas. Would rather see the glyphs rolled into the abilities and maybe called something like Invocations instead of Faiths.


Neutral
Avatar of Meraud: Instead of dying, starts draining soul. If Paladin doesn’t get healed before running out of Soul, then dies. (Inspired by Vorclaf!)
Guidance of Chadatru: Short duration increase to accuracy of melee/ranged/TM attacks (Akin to Expertise Accuracy)
Charge of Everild: Instant melee range
Truffenyi’s Strength: -Burden/-Armor hindrance/+fatigue heal
Kertigen’s Favor: +Forging

Light
Albreda’s Ward: Prevent assailant from aiming/targeting
Berengaria’s Purity: Glow with light/Makes Undead flee
Firulf’s Boon: Next spell cast drains no attunement/raises holy mana (replaces glyph of mana)
Alamhif’s Virtue: Bonus vs Fear/Will attacks to Paladin and those grouped and under the effects of lead

Dark
Idon’s Charm: +Charisma/+Lead duration
Aldauth’s Revenge: Counterattack when opponent damages Paladin
Indignation of Botolf: No soul hit for first strike in PvP
Harawep’s Assault: Target is –tactics/counts as flanked by Paladin
Dergati’s Eye: +Perception

Lore-wise? It's the Paladin's soul doing something. That's why it's powered by soul pool.

I will have to speak with our meta-physics experts about how the Paladin's soul actually does things, since I have only a rough idea.

The same question could be asked of a Glyph. Why does tracing this holy sigil or whatever cause something to happen? Where is this metaphysical power coming from? The power is coming from the same place as in a Glyph, the trappings to create the effect are just different.

My understanding (which could be wrong) is that Glyphs are like mini-rituals powered by soul pool. Faiths would just be a new subset of rituals, which involve sacrificing an offering in addition to utilizing the Paladin's soul pool.

Javac
That one guy

If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.

Don't matter much how it's done, but a spell/ability that gives pulsing fatigue regen would be awesome.

>>DR-Javac: I vaguely recall Faiths being a Paladin system that never got developed, and it seems to go with Ascetisism. So, what kind of abilities are Paladin-y, that we can make Faiths? . . . So, throw out some ideas, and link them to a specific god. Obviously, this project is no where near completion, I haven't even submitted a proposal yet, because I need some ideas.

I am curious how the proposed faiths work in the context of current Paladin lore. One distinction that recent Paladin lore has drawn between Clerics and Paladins -- and this is desperately needed -- is the source of their holy power.

"Unlike the Clerics, who call down divine attention through their rites, the Paladin grounds divinity into the mortal world directly through his actions. While Paladins often think of themselves as servants or vessels of particular Immortals, this distinction has no functional value: the Paladin as a magician and wielder of holy power is wholly defined by the spark of divinity that has set his soul on fire."

Are these faiths actually powered by some connection to the gods, or are they purely soul-oriented abilities that are merely inspired by or named after the gods? If these abilities are actually divine in origin, what distinction is drawn between Cleric communes and Paladin faiths?

Lastly, are you looking at adding a faith for each of the 39 aspects, or do you intend to focus on specific gods?

Once I have a better understanding of what faiths are intended to be, I may be able to propose some abilities.


>>DR-Javac: My current idea is that they will be linked to specific aspects, using favor offerings as fodder. It will utilize the existing soul pool, and cost will vary based on dark/neutral/light aspect and your last favor. If you have your last favor from a dark aspect, dark aspect faiths are cheaper and light aspects are more expensive, and vice versa. Neutral aspect favors will make neutral aspect faiths slightly cheaper, but won't make anything more expensive.

When you say "favor offerings," I hope you mean the items that gods accept as sacrifices for favor and not the favors themselves. (I don't see myself spending actual favors to use abilities.) It shouldn't be too expensive or tedious to train asceticism if faiths are intended as a training method.

Besides favor offerings, are there other options on the table? If so, which ones are being considered? (For example, I could see some of the "dark" abilities either requiring a poor soul state or sacrificing soul state.)


>>DR-Javac: I want there to be the option of being a dark paladin. Handling it correctly will be a challege, however. I don't want it to be something every body does because it is seen as mechanically better.

It is important to strike a good balance. The game has not always been good at providing meaningful disincentives to use "dark" abilities. (For example, almost everyone trains sorcery regardless of the RP due to its mechanical benefits.)

Additionally, a lot of players like to go "dark" just to be edgy and different, especially when it's the newest thing in development. (I think the fact that the dark aspects get so much more "screen time" than the light and neutral aspects contributes to the popularity of darkness as well.)

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Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide

armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide

* https://elanthipedia.play.net/Faiths *
[Fore-word: (I didn't write this at the beginning I wrote it at the end). I didn't follow that original concept fully and strangely I read it only after writing a significant amount of my ideas. Though it struck me that a physical manifestation of something probably would be to much for a Paladin's soul to manipulate into reality so glad I was on that same page even if a few of my brainstorming concepts were out of line of that. The other thing you'll notice is I only went with Light Aspect gods, I know HE is all about the Dark gods it seems and I wish I had more lore to inspire me to make some of these abilities, but I felt a few of them were really cool, Like Peri'el, I also like the Phelim one, but that's probably because just about every main character I have ever played in DR follows Phelim).

>Hopefully that balance can be found, however. It may just lie in messaging, rather than modifying mechanical effects.
I'm just brainstorming here that the former rather then the later would make Paladins a bit more distinct. Further brainstorming, more coolness and awesomesause should be available through the good aspects.


Offering of Phelim: Nightingale's view: A near instantaneous HUNT type thing, including the room you are in. Showing the hidden, invisible, or otherwise hard to discern peoples. Perhaps not direct action, so you know there is a threat but can't necessarily point out the enemy, may give some type of bonus to searching out those threats later.
In-Game: You press your soul out warping it into the aspect of Phelim's Nightingale, your mind's eye races out and up, and your vigilence is that of a bird, or the Nightingale himself high above, locating out threats and dangers you see:

Offering of Divyaush: (this might need a bit of cleaning up because I don't craft much, but when I do I script through it and while I pay attention, I don't fully get what's going down). Welkin's forgiveness: You are crafting along and you made an error, this fixes the error so that the quality isn't deminished.
In-game: You press your soul out warping it into the aspect of Divyaush's Welkin, you see what error was recently made in your work, and know how to fix it, then you fix it.

Offering of Berengaria: Cow's First Flame: A flame to cut through darkness.
In-game: You press your soul out warping it into [the offering], allowing it to settle on the ground of its own accord. The piece flashes quickly, bringing the brightness of dawn to the area. [The concept would be cooler if stuff had issues with light, but don't think many opponents really besides in lore have issues with light, but kinda like the concept of something like the JRRTolkiens's Hobbit where the Trolls get turned to Stone by the Light]. The fire should provide light in dark areas, and also be something which actually burns things (an item -Fire-, within the room).

Offering of Firulf: Staff of Lightning (probably over the top, but I couldn't resist): It's a thrown weapon that is destroys itself as it is thrown and turns it a lightning bolt at that which it is thrown.
In-Game: You press your soul warping it into [the offering], grasping a black marbled silver staff, that shimmers with an electricity of it's own (again you throw this at an enemy and it turns into a lightning bolt to strike the opponent).

Offering of Kuniyo: Nobler with the Sword: Assists those that wield a sword, giving the sword wield in the other hand while making the offering a special form of bless like that of Kertigen's Commune for (what A LOT of strikes feels like).
In-game: You press your soul warping it into [the offering], the offering shimmers and extends into a growing mass of ethereal energy drawing the hand to it's other, clasping your [sword (this offering SHOULDN'T work AT ALL if the person isn't holding a sword)] with both hands as they hold the sword in unison.

Offering of Alamhif: Assistance of the Innocent: [This one is a bit vague, but run with it as you would], Gives a boost to protection. Helps the Paladin to aid those that are innocent.
In-Game: Again not sure about it much but should follow the same kind of start as the others.

Offering of Peri'el: Resolution Despite Loss: Paladin is taking some pounding, this basically gives the Paladin a sort of get out of Jail free card. It doesn't heal the Paladin but allows the Paladin to shrug things off like how despite Peri'els great losses suffered against the World Dragon she still keeps the World Dragon in slumber. This though is because Peri'el is sacrificing to defend others (that seems like a very Paladin thing to do).
In-Game: [Only usable when Protecting/Guarding others] Sensing the danger that is about to befall those under your charge, and knowing your mortal form is failing you warp you press your soul out strongly into [the offering] shedding aside the pain and crippling damage you press yourself forward to do your duty with renewed resolution (vitality has no affect (or less of an affect) on killing the Paladin or does it give negative affects to tests while the affect lasts). [When the affects finish stamina should drop significantly and loss to spirit, maybe mana as well, The Paladin isn't Peri'el they need to finish things off and get back to a sanctuary semi-soon or they WILL be finished].

Offering of Lemicus: Favoring Wind: Basically a benefacting wind is always with the Paladin and those that he protects while the affects are lasting. I'm guessing the best way to manipulate this in game is that 'bonuses' to position will always be providing in the combat calculations in combat. So the Paladin and those he is Protecting are kinda at the top of the hill, while the Paladin's opponents are always working a bit harder trying to gain that foot hold.
In-Game: You press your soul into [the offering], it briefly shimmers then blows off in a whisper of wind, the whisper of a wind picks up and wind in the area seems to always graciously be behind you but only in a gentle helpful way.

Offering of Saemaus: Lovesickness: You embue your opponent with a sense that he actually isn't your opponent and just stops and stares for a while.
In-game: You press your soul into [the offering], it briefly shimmers and turns into ethereal energy that flows out toward that who opposes you directly.

Offering of Albreda: Peaceful Prayer: You turn yourself inner thoughts of peace toward an outer sense of peace. (Make love not war type of thing, basically DOWN tweak the amount of enemies generating in the room, perhaps if it can be done as well, lower the amount of combatants that can encircle a person from (4)four to (3)three).
In-Game: You press your soul into [the offering], it briefly shimmers and turns into an ethereal energy that merges with the Paladin. The Paladin's mindset of Peace seems to lead others to that same mindset.


Offering of Murrela: Murrela's Mindfulness: Fog of War dimes the senses a song can sharpen the mind.
In-Game: You press your soul into [the offering], pressing it to your lips as your mind finds a song to sing. The Paladin sings a song and while it is song, the Paladin and those he protects are helped as if young and full of vitality (boost to vitality recovery and fatigue recovery).

Offering of Rutilor: Rutilor versus the Leviathan. Concept David versus Goliath. How exactly to put that into play. Not sure exactly maybe something for when if bonuses get to be a thing. Maybe something that helps out a little guy at last be able to stand his ground a little against the bigger things. That's the concept at least.
In-game: You press your soul into [the offering], and press it against yourself knowing that like Rutilor you may be small but you are a Paladin, and you most defend those that cannot defend themselves.

Offering of Eylhaar: Death's Embrace: Similar to Peri'el's Resolution: Only this isn't about getting out of Jail, The Paladin knows the Threats are all to Real but the Paladin will Provide Protection and vanquish a few more enemies despite that. Lasts as long as the Spirit is willing to give (ability cancels nullifies any type of Spirit Regenerating ability, Spirit Boosting ability, this is the Paladin's natural Spirit as the abilities batteries and when the Paladin's Spirit dies he dies, but to make it a little cooler perhaps it still SHOULDN'T be a spirit death, because I like Resurrections and think that that part of Spirit death is stupid and at least this shouldn't have that).
In-Game: You press your soul into [the offering], dropping it as it turns to ash and dust and swirls about you. You will yourself to Embrace Death with the grace of Eylhaar, fearing not for there shall be no Pain and redouble your efforts to Protect those you are charged with defending.





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"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

---
"Phelim, what have I wrought?"
GM NaOHHI
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Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 S.V.o.L.t.R

> Just to follow up on my earlier post a little, another reason I suggested virtues or words to focus on rather than gods is that I would not like to see the Paladin guild become Clerics lite.

I have to agree with this. Tying Faiths to the 39 just makes them feel commune-like and like Cleric-lite. One thing I have liked about a Paladin is that you can embrace other racial faiths without feeling at odds with basic guild ideas.

>In that vein, it seems more like sacrificing items to the gods would be more of a clerical ritual than a Paladin ritual.
This is why all of my abilities had the Paladin using the [the offering] as a focal point the Paladin willed his soul through, to mimic some aspect of the avatars. I'm in a manner liking the concept that the Paladin's disciplined soul can thrust itself and manipulate things into the plane of abiding in many different aspects that mimic through their code again various aspects or history parts of the avatars of the Immortals.

I can respect that some players don't want their character to be following the 39, however perhaps tough the characters are in Kermoria, and the gods of Kermoria are the Immortals, the 39.

(By the perhaps tough I mean to convey, this is brainstorming, but please come up with a direction and some momentum because this is brainstorming, we shouldn't be focused on No this shouldn't be this, but what other possibilities, so please possibilities).


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"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

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"Phelim, what have I wrought?"
GM NaOHHI
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Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 S.V.o.L.t.R

At this point I am going to go on a little side-bar.

The Paladins for the last roughly twenty years have continued to get some of the least amount of development because it's all about what they aren't. So again, instead of writing so many characters, words, and PARAGRAPHS on what they aren't. Not mentioning ANY names here. Please stay within the scope of brain storming, and direct towards some idea or ideas of what they ARE, do not use what they AREN'T.

[TLDR version: Please Stop with the Paladins: aren't Cleric Light, WE know this already, what ARE THEY, expound upon THAT].

With sincerity, and the hope that maybe we can focus on what they ARE.

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"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

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"Phelim, what have I wrought?"
GM NaOHHI
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Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 S.V.o.L.t.R

So, first let me acknowledge that the original outline for Faiths seems more like a Cleric suite. Several posters are correct, that Paladins are a bit more grounded, and less attached to the gods and their aspects.

That said, there have been some good ideas coming out of this thread, and I don't want it to get bogged down in arguing about what Paladins are or aren't. It's okay to say, "that doesn't sound like a Paladin to me", but it really only needs said once.

Please keep the ideas coming.

Javac
That one guy

If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.

Glyph of Vengeance
For a short amount of time, you perform a quick counter strike anytime you take physical damage.

Glyph of Fortitude
Castable only on others: Provides a short blood staunch to the person.

Glyph of *the Oathbreaker*
For a short amount of time, the target is silenced.

Glyph of Discord
For a short amount of time, the target's cast times are lengthened.

> What if one of Paladins things is being more aspected toward the light side of things, I know that this doesn't seem to bounce into the Rakash gods or Prydaen Triquerta well, but could it that being those other grouping of gods be spiced, flared up a bit to have a light side.

Perhaps you should try playing a Cleric in plate armor? So far you have really been the only one to consistently go back to something that no one else has really supported. Everything you are looking for already exists without creating a system that discourages RP (Dark Paladins) from the get go. Even the GM who posted the idea noticed that the ideas you keep talking about are more of a Cleric centric idea than the Paladin mythos.

I don't get why you would want a system where now you aren't even open to the idea of 39 options but only 13. Limiting things more and more hasn't ever helped much.

I'd like to see a definition of a dark Paladin, are we referring to one who follows a dark aspect, or one fallen from divine grace?

The latter has much more mechanical/roleplay appeal.

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"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh

>>Ashbomb: I'd like to see a definition of a dark Paladin, are we referring to one who follows a dark aspect, or one fallen from divine grace?

I can't speak for others, but the one I have in mind is: http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Paladins/Paladin%20Events/view/750

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The Sacred and the Profane on 02/15/2010 10:16 PM EST

The ethic of the Dark Paladin can be described with deceptive simplicity, "Do what you must -- and then pay for it."

At the heart of being a Paladin is the sacred soul. Unlike the Clerics, who call down divine attention through their rites, the Paladin grounds divinity into the mortal world directly through their actions. While Paladins can (and almost always do) think of themselves as servants or vessels of particular Immortals, this distinction has no functional value: the Paladin as a magician and wielder of holy power is wholly defined by the spark of divinity that has set his soul on fire.

What this means to the Paladin varies wildly -- once their souls are lit, the Immortals only rarely step in to direct the efforts of the flame bearers. While there is a very well known and institutionalized approach to being a Paladin, any path that does not sully the divine soul can be said to be to be a right and proper path to being a Paladin.

The Dark Paladins enter the picture as alternative paths toward divine purity. Despite popular conception, a functional Dark Paladin is not someone who allows their soul to decay. A Paladin who allows the divine fire to gutter is not an anti-hero; he is even less than a human, having opened his soul up to a greater reality and found himself wanting. The taller the pillar, the longer the fall.

Successful paths of the Paladin inevitably revolve around ethical responsibility. While Dark Paladins are known for presenting a harsh edge to the world -- for doing what they perceive as necessary even if honor dictates otherwise -- they do it within a framework of sacrifice and ethical responsibility. Dark Paladins are not bullies and they are not irreverent madmen, they are crusaders who know exactly where to draw the line between divine wrath and human failing. When done with honest intention and impeccable wisdom, the universe has been known to judge even horrendous actions as worthy -- and when he missteps, the Paladin still knows that the sacrifice of their soul is worth the cause.

The dividing line between a coward and a Dark Paladin often comes down to payment: if successful Paladins are defined by responsibility, then a successful Dark Paladin is defined by a willingness to accept the punishment for his actions. A murderer and a Paladin may both strike a man dead for his sins, regardless of what the law says, but what defines the Paladin's ethic is he will then stand and accept responsibility for his action. Sometimes it is as simple and painless as a murder fine, but often enough the contrived web of ethics and perceived necessity drive the Dark Paladin to bitter ends, exile, and acts of unmourned sacrifice that would cause their more romantic, honor-focused brothers to weep.

After all, the Paladin on the razor-edged path knows better than anyone that his life has only finite value.

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Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide

armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide

>I'd like to see a definition of a dark Paladin, are we referring to one who follows a dark aspect, or one fallen from divine grace?

To my mind it's neither.

Honor, upholding law, dispensing justice, protecting the weak: the only difference between the current iteration of the guild and a theoretical "dark Paladin" would be where the line is drawn.

Examples:

* Thievery is still outlawed, a good distinction of fallen paladin v. dark paladin. Even to the most extreme dark Paladin who might support full-on martial law, theft of property is purely wanton and self-serving.

* Whereas a normal Paladin balks at the idea of stealth or ambush, a dark Paladin might ambush a known Thief or Necromancer. To their mind, true morality is eliminating a dangerous threat to law and order. A "light" Paladin could thus be criticized as immoral, because they are placing more emphasis on exterior decorum than "truly" protecting the people by maximizing their chances to eliminate a dangerous threat to the peace.

So, a dark paladin is batman, or the punisher. does necessities not niceties.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how some dark immortals could have paladins that aren't eeeeevil. (see harawep and asketi)

that's what I was thinking, the immortals that can do lawful evil kind of make sense to me though. (Khears been an aldauth paldin for a while)

>that's what I was thinking, the immortals that can do lawful evil kind of make sense to me though. (Khears been an aldauth paldin for a while)

You are of course free to roleplay as you please, but I would hesitate to choose Aldauth for a Paladin. Aldauth is a god of sadism, Paladins can't really be "evil" and enjoy torturing people for the sake of torturing them.

Batman and Punisher are good examples. Punisher could be seen as a villain from Spider-Man or Daredevil's perspective, but Punisher is still a cop at heart, he's just waging a personal war against crime and super villains. Punisher doesn't mind resorting to torturing a bad guy if he needs to do it, but Aldauth is more like the Joker - inflicting pain for the sake of pain, on anyone - random civilians just as much as villains. That's not the Paladin guild, even a supposed "dark" Paladin.