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So....I could be wrong on this but... do I have to backtrain 1500 ranks in sorcery to be able to use sorcery spells at my level again? Not to mention I can't even figure out how to start training it...
Wolfegard quietly says, "I got hitched in a tree."
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Wolfegard's pockets and carefully grab a gold wedding band.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
BROOKIE
MOCKERJB
DARKANGEL23
Re: Sorcery
01/23/2013 01:38 AM CST
1500? No. 150+? Yes. Grab a rune focus it till you get 65ish ranks in Sorcery then find a spell scroll and get ready to lose some arms.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
BROOKIE
Re: Sorcery
01/23/2013 01:55 AM CST
Seriously doubt I'm gonna be successfully casting a sorcery spell on 150th+ barbs when I only have 150 ranks in it and it "takes place of my PM."
Oh..and lets take several of our existing spells and put them under this new limitation, while also making majority of our Esoteric spells sorcery, limiting training potential cause of this.
Unless I'm missing something that hasn't been mentioned yet, this system was REALLY poorly designed for older characters.
Wolfegard quietly says, "I got hitched in a tree."
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Wolfegard's pockets and carefully grab a gold wedding band.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Sorcery
01/23/2013 02:08 AM CST
>>Seriously doubt I'm gonna be successfully casting a sorcery spell on 150th+ barbs when I only have 150 ranks in it and it "takes place of my PM."
You have possibly the most versatile arsenal of guilded spells available to you, as well as a guild-specific sorcery spellbook, a couple spells of which can be pretty nasty in PvP even with limited ranks. I don't find it reasonable to argue that you deserve hundreds of sorcery ranks grandfathered just because you can't use Fire Shard effectively against the most powerful anti-magic guild in the game.
>>Oh..and lets take several of our existing spells and put them under this new limitation, while also making majority of our Esoteric spells sorcery, limiting training potential cause of this.
Moon Mages have six non-teleological esoteric spells and two esoteric teleological spells. I'm not da best at da maths, but I get the vague impression that 25% does not constitute a majority.
>>Unless I'm missing something that hasn't been mentioned yet, this system was REALLY poorly designed for older characters.
There really isn't any way to decide how many ranks of sorcery you "deserve." The system doesn't have a counter for cross-mana spells cast or anything like that. Put your nose to the grindstone, if you really wanna be a sorcerer now's the time to demonstrate it.
You have possibly the most versatile arsenal of guilded spells available to you, as well as a guild-specific sorcery spellbook, a couple spells of which can be pretty nasty in PvP even with limited ranks. I don't find it reasonable to argue that you deserve hundreds of sorcery ranks grandfathered just because you can't use Fire Shard effectively against the most powerful anti-magic guild in the game.
>>Oh..and lets take several of our existing spells and put them under this new limitation, while also making majority of our Esoteric spells sorcery, limiting training potential cause of this.
Moon Mages have six non-teleological esoteric spells and two esoteric teleological spells. I'm not da best at da maths, but I get the vague impression that 25% does not constitute a majority.
>>Unless I'm missing something that hasn't been mentioned yet, this system was REALLY poorly designed for older characters.
There really isn't any way to decide how many ranks of sorcery you "deserve." The system doesn't have a counter for cross-mana spells cast or anything like that. Put your nose to the grindstone, if you really wanna be a sorcerer now's the time to demonstrate it.
DARKANGEL23
Re: Sorcery
01/23/2013 02:13 AM CST
>>Seriously doubt I'm gonna be successfully casting a sorcery spell on 150th+ barbs
Then dont use a Sorcery spell? Use one of our other spells that work just as well. SET has an immobilize.. use Sleep instead. TV is a double edged sword and youre just as likely to buff them as curse them. SOD on a barb? Im not sure thats gonna help you much since I doubt a few points lower in int is gonna stop an axe flyin at your head.
>>this system was REALLY poorly designed for older characters.
So you think you should be entitled to 1500 free ranks of another skill?? Heh jeese you already got 4 skills worth of free ranks.
>>several of our existing spells
Several? Not really... 3. SET, TF, and TV. SOD wasnt available until now.
>>limiting training potential cause of this.
Eh? We have 9 Esoteric spells.. 2 of them are Sorcery Im not sure a "majority" is the right word, maybe "minority" is better. I think maybe you should reread stuff before getting angry. Everyone is under the same "penalty" in Sorcery. We all started at 0 ranks. Me? Im already past 100 ranks. Its not hard to move if you know how to move it. And until you get back to par itll just take time before you can decrease a 150th Barbarians Intelligence with it.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
Then dont use a Sorcery spell? Use one of our other spells that work just as well. SET has an immobilize.. use Sleep instead. TV is a double edged sword and youre just as likely to buff them as curse them. SOD on a barb? Im not sure thats gonna help you much since I doubt a few points lower in int is gonna stop an axe flyin at your head.
>>this system was REALLY poorly designed for older characters.
So you think you should be entitled to 1500 free ranks of another skill?? Heh jeese you already got 4 skills worth of free ranks.
>>several of our existing spells
Several? Not really... 3. SET, TF, and TV. SOD wasnt available until now.
>>limiting training potential cause of this.
Eh? We have 9 Esoteric spells.. 2 of them are Sorcery Im not sure a "majority" is the right word, maybe "minority" is better. I think maybe you should reread stuff before getting angry. Everyone is under the same "penalty" in Sorcery. We all started at 0 ranks. Me? Im already past 100 ranks. Its not hard to move if you know how to move it. And until you get back to par itll just take time before you can decrease a 150th Barbarians Intelligence with it.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
DR-RAESH
Re: Sorcery
01/23/2013 02:24 AM CST
>>TV is a double edged sword and youre just as likely to buff them as curse them.
Well, no, it's heavily weighted towards cursing.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Well, no, it's heavily weighted towards cursing.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
DARKANGEL23
Re: Sorcery
01/23/2013 02:37 AM CST
>>Well, no, it's heavily weighted towards cursing.
Meh I was being snarky to illustrate that a couple spells out of all the myriad of our choices shouldnt be fit inducing. But you have to swoop in here with your logic makin me look bad heh. Ok TV would be useful aside the fact that you have no clue what you cursed them with... since you cant look at curses on people in combat... and you have no way to direct the curses at any individual skill. BTW I still love the spell... its just not the end of the world bein uable to cast it yet.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
Meh I was being snarky to illustrate that a couple spells out of all the myriad of our choices shouldnt be fit inducing. But you have to swoop in here with your logic makin me look bad heh. Ok TV would be useful aside the fact that you have no clue what you cursed them with... since you cant look at curses on people in combat... and you have no way to direct the curses at any individual skill. BTW I still love the spell... its just not the end of the world bein uable to cast it yet.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
BROOKIE
Re: Sorcery
01/23/2013 02:42 AM CST
>> them are Sorcery Im not sure a "majority" is the right word
Should have clarified the majority of the debilitation esoteric spells, leaving two of the three escoteric debilitation spells, and not to mention the only two advanced debil spells we have, to remain in sorcery. Oh, and the remaining one, Mental Blast, doesn't appear to be teaching after repeated casts.
>>So you think you should be entitled to 1500 free ranks of another skill?? Heh jeese you already got 4 skills worth of free ranks.
No, I don't want another 1500 ranks, what I want is to be able to use the spells that I have used for years without new limitations that are, in all practical means, impossible for me to train up. I can't backtrain that much. And I shouldn't have too.
We were assured countless times we wouldn't be losing viability and accessibility to our talents within 3.0, but this is exactly what is happening. I will never be able to use sorcery on anyone my level again in this game with this current system. There is no way I can catch it up to current circle 150+ people that I would need to be casting these spells on (and yes most of them are PVP orientated).
Four (Five if you count the fact that Shadow Web was nixed) of the approximately 19 offensively orientated spells we have are effectively unusable.
>>if you really wanna be a sorcerer now's the time to demonstrate it.
I already WAS a sorcerer. I included TV and Shadow web and SET in my regular PVP assets. For the older players, there is no way to ever utilize these skills again with starting people at rank 0. I don't care about firing Fire shards or whatnot, but what I do care about is using my previous spells and abilities at the level of skill that I have earned over the years. There is no way that I would have let such a vital skill lay at 0 throughout my years of training if I was given the chance... which falls into the realm of why we grandfathered stuff.
It just feels that, in order to accommodate some roleplay aspect some GM wanted to create, we actually lose versatility in our spellbooks.
Wolfegard quietly says, "I got hitched in a tree."
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Wolfegard's pockets and carefully grab a gold wedding band.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
Should have clarified the majority of the debilitation esoteric spells, leaving two of the three escoteric debilitation spells, and not to mention the only two advanced debil spells we have, to remain in sorcery. Oh, and the remaining one, Mental Blast, doesn't appear to be teaching after repeated casts.
>>So you think you should be entitled to 1500 free ranks of another skill?? Heh jeese you already got 4 skills worth of free ranks.
No, I don't want another 1500 ranks, what I want is to be able to use the spells that I have used for years without new limitations that are, in all practical means, impossible for me to train up. I can't backtrain that much. And I shouldn't have too.
We were assured countless times we wouldn't be losing viability and accessibility to our talents within 3.0, but this is exactly what is happening. I will never be able to use sorcery on anyone my level again in this game with this current system. There is no way I can catch it up to current circle 150+ people that I would need to be casting these spells on (and yes most of them are PVP orientated).
Four (Five if you count the fact that Shadow Web was nixed) of the approximately 19 offensively orientated spells we have are effectively unusable.
>>if you really wanna be a sorcerer now's the time to demonstrate it.
I already WAS a sorcerer. I included TV and Shadow web and SET in my regular PVP assets. For the older players, there is no way to ever utilize these skills again with starting people at rank 0. I don't care about firing Fire shards or whatnot, but what I do care about is using my previous spells and abilities at the level of skill that I have earned over the years. There is no way that I would have let such a vital skill lay at 0 throughout my years of training if I was given the chance... which falls into the realm of why we grandfathered stuff.
It just feels that, in order to accommodate some roleplay aspect some GM wanted to create, we actually lose versatility in our spellbooks.
Wolfegard quietly says, "I got hitched in a tree."
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Wolfegard's pockets and carefully grab a gold wedding band.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
DR-RAESH
Re: Sorcery
01/23/2013 02:51 AM CST
>>Should have clarified the majority of the debilitation esoteric spells, leaving two of the three escoteric debilitation spells, and not to mention the only two advanced debil spells we have, to remain in sorcery. Oh, and the remaining one, Mental Blast, doesn't appear to be teaching after repeated casts.
Debilitation is more about what you're casting on than it's tier. Also there's a good chance the TS spells will be reduced in difficulty instead of making an entire spellbook of esoteric spells (It's a conversation I need to have with Armifer).
>>It just feels that, in order to accommodate some roleplay aspect some GM wanted to create, we actually lose versatility in our spellbooks.
It's almost like this is a roleplaying game.
Seriously though, I think you're vastly overestimating how hard it will be to get your sorcery up to a viable level. Will it ever catch up? I doubt it, but you don't need 1500 ranks to cast spells on people 150th circle. If your magical average is 1500 ranks you should have insane mentals, plus the new exp system working in your favor.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Debilitation is more about what you're casting on than it's tier. Also there's a good chance the TS spells will be reduced in difficulty instead of making an entire spellbook of esoteric spells (It's a conversation I need to have with Armifer).
>>It just feels that, in order to accommodate some roleplay aspect some GM wanted to create, we actually lose versatility in our spellbooks.
It's almost like this is a roleplaying game.
Seriously though, I think you're vastly overestimating how hard it will be to get your sorcery up to a viable level. Will it ever catch up? I doubt it, but you don't need 1500 ranks to cast spells on people 150th circle. If your magical average is 1500 ranks you should have insane mentals, plus the new exp system working in your favor.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
MOCKERJB
DARKANGEL23
Re: Sorcery
01/23/2013 03:03 AM CST
>> For the older players, there is no way to ever utilize these skills again with starting people at rank 0.
Yeah I dont really think this is the case even remotely. Even if you had to backtrain 1000+ ranks Im not sure this would be untrainable and impossible. And if you really wanna use the Barbarian piece youd only have to train up to about 400 since thats what 150th circle Barbs got grandfathered to in Warding. Not really that big an issue.
>>I want is to be able to use the spells that I have used for years without new limitations
Well we dont always get what we want do we? Some things changed... its time to roll with it or just dont use them.
>>There is no way that I would have let such a vital skill lay at 0 throughout my years of training if I was given the chance
And how do you decide who gets how many ranks of Sorcery? Sorcery is an extra that only one other guild can even use in circling. And its now used in an area of the game that didnt really exist before, in any substantial way at least. Theres simply no way to put a rank number on it to even attempt grandfathering it. Keep in mind Shadow Web isnt and wasnt a Sorcery spell... it just got the axe and is from what I understand still possibly on the table to be redone. TV isnt even the same spell anymore so Im not sure why youre angry there... even if you could cast it willy nilly it wont have the stat reducing effects it did in 2.0.
>>we actually lose versatility in our spellbooks.
From those three ( four if you count the new one) spells? Nah not even remotely. You can still do all the same things with our normal spells.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
Yeah I dont really think this is the case even remotely. Even if you had to backtrain 1000+ ranks Im not sure this would be untrainable and impossible. And if you really wanna use the Barbarian piece youd only have to train up to about 400 since thats what 150th circle Barbs got grandfathered to in Warding. Not really that big an issue.
>>I want is to be able to use the spells that I have used for years without new limitations
Well we dont always get what we want do we? Some things changed... its time to roll with it or just dont use them.
>>There is no way that I would have let such a vital skill lay at 0 throughout my years of training if I was given the chance
And how do you decide who gets how many ranks of Sorcery? Sorcery is an extra that only one other guild can even use in circling. And its now used in an area of the game that didnt really exist before, in any substantial way at least. Theres simply no way to put a rank number on it to even attempt grandfathering it. Keep in mind Shadow Web isnt and wasnt a Sorcery spell... it just got the axe and is from what I understand still possibly on the table to be redone. TV isnt even the same spell anymore so Im not sure why youre angry there... even if you could cast it willy nilly it wont have the stat reducing effects it did in 2.0.
>>we actually lose versatility in our spellbooks.
From those three ( four if you count the new one) spells? Nah not even remotely. You can still do all the same things with our normal spells.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
BROOKIE
Re: Sorcery
01/23/2013 03:20 AM CST
>> You can still do all the same things with our normal spells
Please point me to our only persistent disable and only web spell, or our only combat stat debuff spell (hitting stats like agil/reflex).
>>And how do you decide who gets how many ranks of Sorcery?
Simply? I don't decide. I never said I do. But call me crazy when I say PM works nicely when it comes to our guild specific spells.
>>youd only have to train up to about...
And meanwhile they aren't bettering themselves? For those that still play post 150, they are always trying to better themselves. It does take a nice chunk of skill to bypass the 100 or so in stat contests that people in these circles have.
>>Well we dont always get what we want do we?
>>Im not sure why youre angry there
I'm not angry... I'm complaining. That's why I came to the complaint board. You seem very irked by people complaining on the complaints board.
Wolfegard quietly says, "I got hitched in a tree."
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Wolfegard's pockets and carefully grab a gold wedding band.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
Please point me to our only persistent disable and only web spell, or our only combat stat debuff spell (hitting stats like agil/reflex).
>>And how do you decide who gets how many ranks of Sorcery?
Simply? I don't decide. I never said I do. But call me crazy when I say PM works nicely when it comes to our guild specific spells.
>>youd only have to train up to about...
And meanwhile they aren't bettering themselves? For those that still play post 150, they are always trying to better themselves. It does take a nice chunk of skill to bypass the 100 or so in stat contests that people in these circles have.
>>Well we dont always get what we want do we?
>>Im not sure why youre angry there
I'm not angry... I'm complaining. That's why I came to the complaint board. You seem very irked by people complaining on the complaints board.
Wolfegard quietly says, "I got hitched in a tree."
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Wolfegard's pockets and carefully grab a gold wedding band.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
DR-RAESH
Re: Sorcery
01/23/2013 03:28 AM CST
>>Please point me to our only persistent disable
Take your pick, Moon Mages have tons of disablers.
>>only web spell
Shadow Web will not be a sorcery spell if it even still webs people (Presumably if it stays shadow web it will web people... but I don't want to commit to what the spell does at this time).
>>our only combat stat debuff spell (hitting stats like agil/reflex).
TV does not do that anymore.
>>Simply? I don't decide. I never said I do. But call me crazy when I say PM works nicely when it comes to our guild specific spells.
So who gets it? MMs? Magic primes? Everyone? What's the point of a Sorcery skill if we're just setting it to PM for everyone in the game? What about people who don't want to learn sorcery for RP reasons?
>>And meanwhile they aren't bettering themselves? For those that still play post 150, they are always trying to better themselves.
Not at even remotely the same rate you can burn through the lower ranks.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Take your pick, Moon Mages have tons of disablers.
>>only web spell
Shadow Web will not be a sorcery spell if it even still webs people (Presumably if it stays shadow web it will web people... but I don't want to commit to what the spell does at this time).
>>our only combat stat debuff spell (hitting stats like agil/reflex).
TV does not do that anymore.
>>Simply? I don't decide. I never said I do. But call me crazy when I say PM works nicely when it comes to our guild specific spells.
So who gets it? MMs? Magic primes? Everyone? What's the point of a Sorcery skill if we're just setting it to PM for everyone in the game? What about people who don't want to learn sorcery for RP reasons?
>>And meanwhile they aren't bettering themselves? For those that still play post 150, they are always trying to better themselves.
Not at even remotely the same rate you can burn through the lower ranks.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
BROOKIE
Re: Sorcery
01/23/2013 03:30 AM CST
>>Will it ever catch up? I doubt it, but you don't need 1500 ranks to cast spells on people 150th circle.
Here's one to think about.
According to what I've read, if your PM way over achieves your sorcery (which it always will for the older characters), you don't get the benefit of reducing necromatic backlash while still receiving bonus in strength due to your PM and Arcana. (This is all according to Elanthipedia on the topic Sorcery Skill).
Does that mean that someone with 900 Sorcery and 1500 PM would have more risk of backlash compared to someoen with 900 sorcery and 900 PM?
If so, I can't imagine ever being on the safer side of casting cause I've already trained PM.
Wolfegard quietly says, "I got hitched in a tree."
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Wolfegard's pockets and carefully grab a gold wedding band.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
Here's one to think about.
According to what I've read, if your PM way over achieves your sorcery (which it always will for the older characters), you don't get the benefit of reducing necromatic backlash while still receiving bonus in strength due to your PM and Arcana. (This is all according to Elanthipedia on the topic Sorcery Skill).
Does that mean that someone with 900 Sorcery and 1500 PM would have more risk of backlash compared to someoen with 900 sorcery and 900 PM?
If so, I can't imagine ever being on the safer side of casting cause I've already trained PM.
Wolfegard quietly says, "I got hitched in a tree."
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Wolfegard's pockets and carefully grab a gold wedding band.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
BROOKIE
Re: Sorcery
01/23/2013 03:41 AM CST
>>persistent disable
persistent~
>>TV does not do that anymore.
I was pointing out that we lost something.
>>What's the point of a Sorcery skill if we're just setting it to PM for everyone in the game?
I don't know what the point is. In just my humble opinion, I thought it worked well for the past 15+ years with relying on the mana of the area for that spell type + the justice system.
>>but I don't want to commit to what the spell does at this time
This is the first I've heard that it will even be coming back. I never expected good news out of my complaining.
Wolfegard quietly says, "I got hitched in a tree."
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Wolfegard's pockets and carefully grab a gold wedding band.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
persistent~
>>TV does not do that anymore.
I was pointing out that we lost something.
>>What's the point of a Sorcery skill if we're just setting it to PM for everyone in the game?
I don't know what the point is. In just my humble opinion, I thought it worked well for the past 15+ years with relying on the mana of the area for that spell type + the justice system.
>>but I don't want to commit to what the spell does at this time
This is the first I've heard that it will even be coming back. I never expected good news out of my complaining.
Wolfegard quietly says, "I got hitched in a tree."
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Wolfegard's pockets and carefully grab a gold wedding band.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
DR-RAESH
Re: Sorcery
01/23/2013 03:49 AM CST
I covered Shadow Web in my summary post yesterday didn't I? I know I left Scry off by accident.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
DARKANGEL23
Re: Sorcery
01/23/2013 04:02 AM CST
>>You seem very irked by people complaining on the complaints board.
Not even remotely, but your complaint doesnt really have any ground other than.. well you just wanna complain heh.
>>Does that mean that someone with 900 Sorcery and 1500 PM would have more risk of backlash compared to someoen with 900 sorcery and 900 PM?
Only in so much as the person with 1500 PM can cast higher than the 900 person and hence could attempt casting a Sorcery spell higher than their skill allows and increasing the chance of blowing their arms off. You just have to modify your casts. For example Im using Hodernia's Lilt currently and I can only prep it at a 4. I could attempt to cast it at 12-15 which my PM skill would allow but my Sorcery doesnt so I backfire and backlash if I try to pump that much into it.
>>persistent~
Its no more persistent then any other spell. You cast it and it has a duration effect. The only difference is that you invoke the stun a couple times rather than have it happen up front. That doesnt make it persistant... by the way have you heard of dispellers yet? Yeah they take those off. So honestly SET is far easier to combat than it used to be. And if they dont dispel it then youre stuck with it on and cant use any other TS spell while its on. Sure you could Rend yourself but then youd have to lose your buffs too.
>> I thought it worked well for the past 15+ years
Ah the root of the problem. Things change. Is change always good? Nope. But it happens anyhow. I miss bein able to cast my sorcery spells but Im pushing the skill as fast as I can. And Im almost at the point where I can use my spells again. Sorcery should take extra skill to use its outside the normal training for absolutely everyone but necros. And while yes some of us have had sorcery for years there just isnt any way to feasibly give folks Sorcery ranks.
>>This is the first I've heard that it will even be coming back.
Yeah hes mentioned it a few times now. Though as he said its still in the "might change what it does" realm still. As long as its a useful shadow spell Im game for it.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
Not even remotely, but your complaint doesnt really have any ground other than.. well you just wanna complain heh.
>>Does that mean that someone with 900 Sorcery and 1500 PM would have more risk of backlash compared to someoen with 900 sorcery and 900 PM?
Only in so much as the person with 1500 PM can cast higher than the 900 person and hence could attempt casting a Sorcery spell higher than their skill allows and increasing the chance of blowing their arms off. You just have to modify your casts. For example Im using Hodernia's Lilt currently and I can only prep it at a 4. I could attempt to cast it at 12-15 which my PM skill would allow but my Sorcery doesnt so I backfire and backlash if I try to pump that much into it.
>>persistent~
Its no more persistent then any other spell. You cast it and it has a duration effect. The only difference is that you invoke the stun a couple times rather than have it happen up front. That doesnt make it persistant... by the way have you heard of dispellers yet? Yeah they take those off. So honestly SET is far easier to combat than it used to be. And if they dont dispel it then youre stuck with it on and cant use any other TS spell while its on. Sure you could Rend yourself but then youd have to lose your buffs too.
>> I thought it worked well for the past 15+ years
Ah the root of the problem. Things change. Is change always good? Nope. But it happens anyhow. I miss bein able to cast my sorcery spells but Im pushing the skill as fast as I can. And Im almost at the point where I can use my spells again. Sorcery should take extra skill to use its outside the normal training for absolutely everyone but necros. And while yes some of us have had sorcery for years there just isnt any way to feasibly give folks Sorcery ranks.
>>This is the first I've heard that it will even be coming back.
Yeah hes mentioned it a few times now. Though as he said its still in the "might change what it does" realm still. As long as its a useful shadow spell Im game for it.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Sorcery
01/23/2013 11:39 AM CST
>>do I have to backtrain 1500 ranks in sorcery to be able to use sorcery spells at my level again?
It depends on what type of at-level result you're expecting.
You don't explicitly need to cast spells at incredibly high amounts of mana to get the lion's share of effects out of a spell, nor provide an effective attack against end-game mobs/players.
Just as a comparison, as a Necromancer with almost 300 sorcery I'm casting PG at ~46 mana, which gives me a nice locksmithing boost. I was able to effectively use the TM aspect of Compost (when the spell had that) against at-level critters. I've been having Hodierna's Lilt do an amazing job at letting me use weapons that normally fatigue me too much to use effectively (IMO) in a 3.0 world.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
It depends on what type of at-level result you're expecting.
You don't explicitly need to cast spells at incredibly high amounts of mana to get the lion's share of effects out of a spell, nor provide an effective attack against end-game mobs/players.
Just as a comparison, as a Necromancer with almost 300 sorcery I'm casting PG at ~46 mana, which gives me a nice locksmithing boost. I was able to effectively use the TM aspect of Compost (when the spell had that) against at-level critters. I've been having Hodierna's Lilt do an amazing job at letting me use weapons that normally fatigue me too much to use effectively (IMO) in a 3.0 world.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
ELWYNN
Re: Sorcery
01/26/2013 05:15 PM CST
Is it possible for the teleologic sorcery penalties to be started after the spell preview period is over? I can see some people accidentally casing SoD out of habit. This could hurt them in the long run.
DR-RAESH
Re: Sorcery
01/26/2013 07:21 PM CST
>>Is it possible for the teleologic sorcery penalties to be started after the spell preview period is over? I can see some people accidentally casing SoD out of habit. This could hurt them in the long run.
Hmmm.
Let me think about it. More likely I'd just make it possible to entirely bleed off TS corruption for awhile before capping it again.
Has anyone actually had this problem?
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Hmmm.
Let me think about it. More likely I'd just make it possible to entirely bleed off TS corruption for awhile before capping it again.
Has anyone actually had this problem?
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
DAENAR-DR
Re: Sorcery
01/26/2013 07:32 PM CST
>>Is it possible for the teleologic sorcery penalties to be started after the spell preview period is over? I can see some people accidentally casing SoD out of habit. This could hurt them in the long run.
Most of the teleo spells require fairly high sorcery skills. I doubt anyone will accidently prep/cast SOD at those sorcery levels. Plus SOD requires a target?
FALLENSHADOWS
Re: Sorcery
01/26/2013 07:49 PM CST
>>Most of the teleo spells require fairly high sorcery skills. I doubt anyone will accidently prep/cast SOD at those sorcery levels. Plus SOD requires a target?
You are correct, unless SoD is causing corruption from failed casts (either due to skill or invalid target) they should not be encountering this problem. The bleed off is probably a good idea anyways to allow people to test it abit more for any major bugs. Certain people will not use it simply because it will leave you scarred permanently. But on the flip-side it should've been tested thoroughly already so I'm ok with things staying the way they are.
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
The Light is Crimson through the Darkness.
You are correct, unless SoD is causing corruption from failed casts (either due to skill or invalid target) they should not be encountering this problem. The bleed off is probably a good idea anyways to allow people to test it abit more for any major bugs. Certain people will not use it simply because it will leave you scarred permanently. But on the flip-side it should've been tested thoroughly already so I'm ok with things staying the way they are.
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
The Light is Crimson through the Darkness.
SKULL1
Re: Sorcery
01/26/2013 08:13 PM CST
I got hit with... something, heh. Not sure what i cast(prolly was beebopping away failing SOD wondering why it was failing so being dumb and mash casting over and over- tho to be honest im not sure..) so im (i assume?) scarred, since i picked up a little sorc along the way (like .44% or something)
Would appreciate the bleed-off but if its not something easy to do its not a big deal, ill roll with whatever. Bounced in and out of test a bunch but didnt want to test moonie magic (wanted to 'ooh-ahh!' it when it went live, so never read about the changes, played more with cleric there). So yeah, its happened to at least -one- person. heh
DARKANGEL23
Re: Sorcery
01/26/2013 09:08 PM CST
Having ranks in Sorcery wont give you corruption. You have to actually successfully cast one of the Teleologic spells to gain corruption. You could cast a holy spell all day and gain tons of sorcery ranks and youd still be pristine. Only TS spells give the corruption. If you are worried though do a prediction. If you have any corruption whatsoever it will message about your link to the Plane of Probability being messed up.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
ELWYNN
Re: Sorcery
01/26/2013 09:30 PM CST
This hasnt happend to me, but I heard one person say it happend to them.
DARKANGEL23
Re: Sorcery
01/26/2013 09:36 PM CST
Im still not sure its really even plausible. I had to actually get the spells off to get the corruption. And until today its been impossible to cast SoD or TV without a fairly high amount of Sorcery (over 100). Im at the 150 rank area and I know I still backfire them. I suppose if someone has been on a sorcery training kick and THEN keeps tryin to cast SoD like it was seal of deflection or TV like it was the old version it could be possible but I would like to think that if theyve been working magics enough to work Sorcery up high enough then they should be pretty well aware of what spells are what.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
DAENAR-DR
Re: Sorcery
01/26/2013 09:54 PM CST
>> DarkAngel
Exactly. I've been training Sorcery pretty hardcore on my Necro and I just barely hit 100.
Exactly. I've been training Sorcery pretty hardcore on my Necro and I just barely hit 100.
DARKANGEL23
Re: Sorcery
01/26/2013 10:04 PM CST
Heh yea its slow going. Especially with the whole backlash thing pretty much stopping all training cold. Ill be stoked when Raesh puts in the variable backlashes.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
SKULL1
Re: Sorcery
01/26/2013 11:41 PM CST
Ahh, thanks for the clarification man. I didn't know that you'd be able to see the corruption if you had it, i just know i learned some sorcery somehow (and not thru teaching, haven't been in a class since 3.0 heh). Like i said tho, i wasn't too terribly worried about it. Knew if i was corrupted it was my own fault. Most the info -is- there, i just avoided it for the most part to dip my toes into the new magic system on my own and make my own judgements on it.
I just assumed it was me trying to put up my SOD buff right off heh.
DARKANGEL23
Re: Sorcery
01/27/2013 02:20 AM CST
Im sure thats prolly where you got the skill ranks.. you still learn a little from failing. Or if you focused a rune or two that does it as well. but yeah you can play with other guilds spells all ya like, just avoid our Sorcery if you arent into the corruption bit.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
MOCKERJB
Re: Sorcery
01/27/2013 09:28 AM CST
<<Especially with the whole backlash thing pretty much stopping all training cold.>>
This is wildly overstating the the backlash risk. It can be managed pretty well with proper adjustments to your spell of choice, mana input, and prep time. What exactly is the training regimen that is forcing you to blow yourself up constantly? Use an easier spell (matters more than mana frequency at lower difficulty ranges I think), lower mana, and a longer prep time (I only cast full preps). I train my sorcery almost exclusively in combat; I do not use a cyclic; and I do not have a pet empath. There are some explosions, for sure, but it's certainly trainable.
This is wildly overstating the the backlash risk. It can be managed pretty well with proper adjustments to your spell of choice, mana input, and prep time. What exactly is the training regimen that is forcing you to blow yourself up constantly? Use an easier spell (matters more than mana frequency at lower difficulty ranges I think), lower mana, and a longer prep time (I only cast full preps). I train my sorcery almost exclusively in combat; I do not use a cyclic; and I do not have a pet empath. There are some explosions, for sure, but it's certainly trainable.
DAENAR-DR
Re: Sorcery
01/27/2013 02:25 PM CST
>> I train my sorcery almost exclusively in combat; I do not use a cyclic; and I do not have a pet empath. There are some explosions, for sure, but it's certainly trainable.
Ah. That makes sense. Training sorcery via DEBIL or TM may teach at low mana because of the mechanics. Non-combat requires casting at/near cap to learn. (hence more back fire chances)
Perhaps that is the difference?
Ah. That makes sense. Training sorcery via DEBIL or TM may teach at low mana because of the mechanics. Non-combat requires casting at/near cap to learn. (hence more back fire chances)
Perhaps that is the difference?
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Sorcery
01/27/2013 02:42 PM CST
backfire and backlash aren't interchangeable.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
MOCKERJB
Re: Sorcery
01/27/2013 03:18 PM CST
I use PFE and Instinct, I just put my weapon away. I do not cast at my personal cap for either; I cast at around 66% of my cap for each respectively. It's not optimal training per cast (like you noted), but not casting at the cap seems to save me a lot of backlash. It may be that the repeated casts needed at lower mana actually increase the total change of backlash because there's more casts needed, but I don't have enough data for that. Anecdotally, putting more mana in and/or trying to cast quickly are the weightier of the backlash risks (again, just talking intro vs basic spells, of only one cross-mana frequency).
In terms of learning efficiency/backlash danger, I think it's currently best to cast a lower base difficulty spell even at a slightly worse cross-mana frequency. I'm not sure that this will hold true as more and more mana is needed though.
In terms of learning efficiency/backlash danger, I think it's currently best to cast a lower base difficulty spell even at a slightly worse cross-mana frequency. I'm not sure that this will hold true as more and more mana is needed though.
DAENAR-DR
Re: Sorcery
01/27/2013 04:53 PM CST
>> backfire and backlash aren't interchangeable.
I meant backlash ofc.
I meant backlash ofc.
DAENAR-DR
Re: Sorcery
01/27/2013 04:55 PM CST
>> In terms of learning efficiency/backlash danger, I think it's currently best to cast a lower base difficulty spell even at a slightly worse cross-mana frequency. I'm not sure that this will hold true as more and more mana is needed though.
Interesting! Thanks. Are you noticing a huge difference between Instinct (life) and PFE? (Holy)?
Interesting! Thanks. Are you noticing a huge difference between Instinct (life) and PFE? (Holy)?
MOCKERJB
Re: Sorcery
01/27/2013 05:15 PM CST
That's what's weird, I noticed that Instinct was working better for teaching, and backlashed less, up to the 10 rank line. I tried testing it vs PFE at the same mana, and slightly more or less. However, when I hit the 10 mana range (going by the 66% of my personal total cap approach), I noticed that the backlash risk seemed to even out and Instinct seems about as dangerous as PFE. I don't think I have enough data in that range though; it totally could have just been a bad stretch of casts.
I have noticed, via discern, that I am gaining a lot more "ability" in casting Instinct, as opposed to PFE, for every rank of sorcery, despite the fact that PFE is ostensibly the easier mana type. This reinforces my belief that base spell difficulty may play a bigger role in backlash risk than mana compatibility (at the one step cross-mana range, entirely possible that "worst" mana mix is by far the biggest backlash variable). Derail of a complaint thread, oops. If anyone else sees different results, maybe post in another folder or magic or something. Fun nerd stuff.
I have noticed, via discern, that I am gaining a lot more "ability" in casting Instinct, as opposed to PFE, for every rank of sorcery, despite the fact that PFE is ostensibly the easier mana type. This reinforces my belief that base spell difficulty may play a bigger role in backlash risk than mana compatibility (at the one step cross-mana range, entirely possible that "worst" mana mix is by far the biggest backlash variable). Derail of a complaint thread, oops. If anyone else sees different results, maybe post in another folder or magic or something. Fun nerd stuff.
DARKANGEL23
Re: Sorcery
01/30/2013 09:32 AM CST
So I was just thinking... we know that Lunar and Holy mix "ok" and Life and Elemental mix "ok". We also know that if you mix them in other ways is bad juju. Now Arcane mana we known mixes "ok" with everything except Holy which explodes in unfriendly ways. What I dont know is how other manas mix with Arcane spells. As a Moon Mage if I prep an Arcane mana spell will it be in the same difficulty level as a Holy mix? Or as a Life/Elemental mix?
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
DURATHING
Re: Sorcery
01/30/2013 10:01 PM CST
>What I dont know is how other manas mix with Arcane spells. As a Moon Mage if I prep an Arcane mana spell will it be in the same difficulty level as a Holy mix?
The assumption would be that it would be the same as if a Necromancer cast a Lunar spell - it's still Arcane mixing with Lunar.
The assumption would be that it would be the same as if a Necromancer cast a Lunar spell - it's still Arcane mixing with Lunar.
