>>how do you know if someone has the money you are asking for to begin with?

Usually you can't make that assumption. I don't really assume anything about my patients. If you have a Nisha short bow or a bunch of stuff that costs between a few gold and a plat, I won't assume you are rich. However, if someone comes in with a forehead ruby, a belt worn claymore sheath, an inviso cloak, some winged boots and tips me a small topaz, I am going to be inclined to think they are cheap. And most likely I will ignore them later.

>>the Empaths who demand to *be paid*

Well, empaths offer a service. If they want to be paid for that service before hand and to their satisfaction, they are completely within their right to do so. A barbarian won't sell capped weapons all day for small topazes because his clientele can't afford 10 plat. This is no different.


>>I have made the most money as an Empath

This may be true at low circles, but empath's earning potential caps out very early until shift. Unless I get one of those super tippers I hardly clear 1.5 plat a day at 60th circle if I am healing and accept all tips. When my war mage was 60th circle he could make that money in an hour or two hunting critters that posed little or no threat. Shifting offers a good source of income for higher circlers I guess, but I have only had like 3 customers.

In my opinion, the tipping environment is better than it has ever been. I'm getting small zircons instead of small topazes and multiple gems more and more, and people who don't tip/offer to at all have dropped to maybe 1 in 6. So good job tippers! But if an empath demands to be paid or calls a bad tipper out, that is their business. It sounds like you are treating empaths well, so just keep on doing what you are doing, and I think you will be a welcome patient and get quick service.


It was the empath. In the library. With the bone-crushing claymore.

~Purehand

>>how do you know if someone has the money you are asking for to begin with?

Consider it a starting offer. A little bargaining isn't going to hurt anyone, and it's not like empaths are really that hard-headed that they won't bother taking, say, 15 gold instead of the 20 they originally asked for. And, at any rate, you COULD ask for some kind of payment plan. As long as 1)the empath knows you are coming back and 2)you keep your word, few of them will get bent out of shape at not being paid right then and there. In fact, the whole reason they do get an attitude is because some people blatantly do not tip or say they will and never do.

>>It's up to the empaths if they want to say if they want tips or not, and how much they want or not...

Actually, no. Unless you are given a price upfront, always offer a proper tip. If the empath doesn't want the tip, great. If the empath wants less than what you offered, even better. Every empath is different in their expectations, so what and how much to tip is something you have to judge on your own.

J'Lo, no that other one

>>Consider it a starting offer. A little bargaining isn't going to hurt anyone, and it's not like empaths are really that hard-headed that they won't bother taking, say, 15 gold instead of the 20 they originally asked for. And, at any rate, you COULD ask for some kind of payment plan.

From what I've read in that "Tipping" thread, it definitely sounded like "Pay me x amount or else! No negging!"

- Ozzie

As far as I'm concerned, this is the biggest dead horse to cause Shock to these folders since the Self-Shifting debates. There will be those that tip wonderfully, and we will always be pleasantly suprised when we find a new one. There are those that will, until they start hunting in Adan'f or something, continue to tip one or two (or perhaps three if you're lucky) 70 kronar gems.

There are empaths that will never take a tip from anyone, going to great lengths to attempt to return anything given to them. There are those that will take any tip, regardless of how emotionally demeaning it would be in RL, as a way of saying, "Well, at least it's something!" And there are those that will only accept tips from total strangers while expecting little from their friends in some form on social status quo equilibrium.

And this is what we get for playing characters, folks. If, as a certain person who will remain nameless would have us believe, we were all playing cookie-cutter characters with no actual personalities, then this discussion would never be coming up. However, it's become such a constant topic that it should be the next remake of a George Romero film.

Just as we pick and choose the tip-acceptance style for our characters, the rest of them pick and choose the tip-offering style for their characters. It's just our misfortune that a good percentage of the rest of them are [CENSORED] [CENSORED].

Please. Someone bury this poor horse before it starts to smell.

Too late.

Amagaim; the player of,

---

"I'm fine! Of course I'm fine! I'm just thinking of the amount of teapots a walrus could eat while juggling George Clooney and David Hasselhof!"

--- Eastwood, Exterminatus Now

<<>>Empaths on the other hand, are obligated to heal

I hate you. Welcome to my blacklist.>>


I'm pretty sure he meant that empaths have to heal in general in order to learn empathy and advance, NOT empaths are obligated to heal every single jerk who comes up to them crying.

>>And it doesn't take a lot of time and effort to train your character so it can take wounds efficiently without killing themselves as well as heal themselves?

Actually, it doesn't take a lot of time. By 15th circle, you should be taking wounds with the best of them and only be limited by your spell selection. Granted, at 15th circle you are definitely not going to stack up to someone at 30th or even legends like Nausikaa but the fact remains you should still have a respectable transfer time by then (modified by current conditions, of course).

J'Lo, no that other one

>Empaths on the other hand, are obligated to heal,

How many empaths have you reported for not healing, if I may ask, and how many came back after the GM pulled 'em up? I.e. they weren't locked out for being disruptive. That's the real measure of obligation. If it'll get you warned or locked out. Because yes, I can see your case. It disrupts your role playing because the empath isn't playing their role correctly and getting you back out to your hunting as quickly as possible with a minimum of outlay.

>just as much as Barbarians are obligated to hunt, and Warrior Mages are obligated to use magic

Actually not really. They just won't circle if they don't do those things. They're not disrupting the role playing of anyone else, inherently, in not doing those things. Now if they say something about it or someone notices JoeWarMage never casts a spell (and isn't a thief) or JimBarb is always sitting in the empath guild listening to classes, well, then they could be disrupting that person's role playing of their own character by jarring them out of their plot, but that's quite a reach, even for modern DR.

>>I'm pretty sure he meant that empaths have to heal in general in order to learn empathy and advance, NOT empaths are obligated to heal every single jerk who comes up to them crying.

Exactly. Thank you for clarifying that a bit further.

- Ozzie

Actually you are wrong. We dont need to heal to advance.We were given the ability to perc heal and manipulate to gain empathy ranks as well as heal if we choose to do so. I gather by the fact you still seem to think we need to heal to advance you ignored everyone elses posts stating that we don't.So empaths do not have an obligation to heal anyone unless they choose too. I have advanced many times with hardly healing so obviously you don't seem to have a clue about how we gain ranks.

Karmelita

Very true, Empath's don't Have to heal at all, in fact, I seem to recall there was a time before Transference was ever around when Empath's healed because they wanted to, it had nothing to do with circle. But with the coming of Transference Empaths were required to heal, and for a long time the situation changed, and when more and more people realized that Empath's needed their wounds to circle, they became less and less grateful for the service.

I'd hazard a speculation that it was a bad time as well for the Empath guild, not only in the fact that it was degrading to have people who once saw your gift as helpful to now be obligatory. But as well in the fact that Empath's had to compete for wounds. I know in my instance, living in Australia where everything is 12 hours opposite the US where the majority of DR players are, when you get off work at 4 p.m. (4 AM EST) and want to play DR you only have about 300 players at most IG and that makes the ability to work trans nearly, if not completely impossible. Empath's were unfairly given the burden or relying on other PC's to be IG and need healing to advance, where as every other guild in the game could work any skill needed to circle without such high demands.

With the changing of Trans to Empathy, it made things considerably easier for the guild, and gave a reprieve, as I see it, to having to rely on the hunting habits, game play, and overall population of a given area to learn the skill. I as a Ranger know that you absolutely must travel to other provinces and areas if you want to train certain skill, but the fact that even if I can't train all the skills I want in a certain area doesn't permit me from works towards a circle, where as Empath's couldn't go to certain, less populated area's with any hope to circle because they needed the trans from taking wounds. I frankly think Empathy was a brilliant addition to the Empath guild.

Now Empath's stand on the brink of new req's, and with them, threatens the return of Transference. I don't mean to ruffle and feathers here, but I don't see this as a bad thing. The evidence that Empath's were meant to heal is blatantly obvious. Empath's role is to heal. Now this is open to debate and argument all you like, but let's look at the facts. Empath's have had, and with the new reqs, will have a Trans requirement, the best way to learn trans is via healing, or taking wounds. Empath's are the only guild with spells to heal; said spells can only be self-cast. Empath's are the only guild who are granted the ability to heal poison and disease, I know we can split hairs and talk about a certain guild that has a similar ability, but apart from them, no one else can heal such maladies via use of herb or tonic. And finally the Auto-Empaths scattered though out the game, true they don't heal you completely, but they heal you to a point where herbs can be used to treat the rest of your ailments, and I've never been privy to an instance where one of them refused me saying, "I'm sorry, I'm not a 'healing' Empath."

All that noted, I want to say again, I have nothing but respect and admiration for the Empath guild. Yours is by far, the least devoloped and most under-appreciated guild in the game. I'd assume 90% of the people who have never played an Empath don't realize the plight and Empath has to face. Mere exclusion from 1/3 of the games most important aspect, hunting, aside. Many fail to realize Empath's have no 100+ circle quest, have no creation system of their own, have 15 or more spell slots available to them starting from the mid 40's in circle, and no real inexhaustible way to earn coin. I'm sure many don't realize that apart from titles and new shift options Empath's have no real reason to even get to 50th, much less 70, 90, etc. I do, and wish to reiterate the fact hat I mean no offence by my prior statement implying that Empath's should in fact heal.

To conclude all I have to say is that obviously, if the GM's made Trans a part of your reqs, they obviously want you to work it. Now, does this mean you should be shackled to 'having' to heal? No. I don't believe so. But you can't neglect the fact that your own titles indicate you to be healers of the game and therefore some healing should be mandatory. On the other hand, I think there should be more options open to the Empath, while not able to escape having to heal occasionally, perhaps having xp gain through wound healing re-written would be a decent start, as well as NPC/Familiar/Companion/Horse healing opened up. I hope this post didn't come across the wrong way, I truly do have a great deal of respect and admiration for the Empath guild, and speaking as a Ranger, I want nothing more than to see Team Empath given as many new systems, spells, abilities and updates, as Team Ranger has in the past 3 years, sincerely and genuinely.


-Ariwin
-Any jackass can fall off a barstool, a real man rides it to the ground.

Okay, I'm intrigued about how to learn empathy without healing. I don't know much at all about the guild (I started a little puff about a week ago... she's all of 9th circle), and I'm not interested in stopping healing people, I'm just curious. How do you go about learning empathy without healing?

>How do you go about learning empathy without healing?

-When you can do a 'perc health' and sense other people, you will learn power percieve and empathy.
-When you can tend off a blood critter (currently blood worms in the croc marsh, albino leeches in the Throne City boars, red and black leeches in the Muspar'i sand pits), you will learn empathy, first aid, mech lore and animal lore.
-Once you reach 20th (or there abouts) you can learn how to manipulate critters, and will learn empathy from a successful manipulate.
-Once you reach 30th and complete the shift quest, you will learn empathy from shifting someone's features.

I think that covers the other options...

Kythryn

>>Actually you are wrong. We dont need to heal to advance.We were given the ability to perc heal and manipulate to gain empathy ranks as well as heal if we choose to do so. I gather by the fact you still seem to think we need to heal to advance you ignored everyone elses posts stating that we don't.So empaths do not have an obligation to heal anyone unless they choose too. I have advanced many times with hardly healing so obviously you don't seem to have a clue about how we gain ranks.

Come on, fellas. Throw me a bone here. The most basic & fundamental aspect of the Empath guild is to HEAL people. You are the HEALERS of Elanthia. The Simu Staff did NOT implement Perc Health, Manipulate, & Leaches to have you use it as a primary means to advance a skill. It is there as a supplement. If you get down to the nitty-gritty, you're right, you don't need to heal in order to advance. Then again, in your thinking, my Barbarian never needs to hunt because he can just sit in a class all day and listen to an older Barbarian about weapons. Does that make any IC/RP sense to you? A Barbarian not hunting? A Thief not stealing? An Empath not healing? If you're an Empath, and all you can think about is "Get these bloody leaches off me!", then why did you join the Guild to begin with?

As for Kythryn's comment about the term "Cookie-Cutter" (nothing against what you said, Kythryn). First off, I'm a big fan of Multi-classes. I wish DR has a more defined Multi-class environment, but that's for another thread. To say that I'm packing you all into this cookie-cutter idea, is, well, true. No matter how you look at it, each guild is a cookie-cutter. An Empath is a healer, a Barbarian is a hunter, a Warrior Mage is a magic-user. That's not being a cookie-cutter? The only thing that comes close to not being a cookie-cutter in Elanthia is a commoner. And that's because he/she is not tied down to a guild.

No matter how you look at it, Empaths are healers. Plain and simple. That's your duty, your obligation. You're right in the fact that you are not at my beck-and-call, and not obligated to heal me right from the get-go. I never disagreed with you guys from that. But, to come back at me and say we can Perc Health or Un-leach ourselves as a primary means of advancing is just pure lame. You mean to tell me you joined a Healer Guild just to knock leaches off your bodies and to see if that person next to you is a Thief-in-disguise? Be honest guys.

- Ozzie

I joined the guild because I like to help people and I used to heal people quite often.I simply choose not to heal as much as I used to because I have other ways I can advance that I enjoy.I have the choice to heal when I feel like it not because I'm chained down to the guild and must heal.I thank the GMs for empowering empaths to have that choice in the way they choose to learn. It is because of people like you who expect us to heal you when you demand it is what upsets people and the fact that you are defining an empath as only someone who heals. Do barbarians only hunt? No they also forge weapons. Empaths don't need to heal if they choose not to just like a cleric can choose not to help deaders or bless weapons etc.I was pointing out to you the fact that we don't need to heal and that we have alternate ways of advancing. Did you ever think that maybe some empaths want to just shift or manipulate critters these days rather than heal? It is not our obligation to heal you so don't try and lecture to empaths that we joined the guild because the only thing we want to do is heal. That is lame and you trying to tell us what our duties and obligations are is lame. So you need to stop assuming empaths are all healers, everyone rps their character in different ways. Want a robotic type empath to heal you? go to the auto healer, I'm sure they will be glad to help you out.

Karmelita

Wouldn't it be more correct to say we're not just healers Purehand? After all, some of us do actually heal people. :) I heal...occasionally, but its not by far all I do.

---

In the end all things return to Chaos

For Shifts: http://www.geocities.com/saerhyn/ESC/Shift.html
For Battle Empaths: http://www.geocities.com/saerhyn/ESC/BattleEmpath.html

>Throw me a bone here. The most basic & fundamental aspect of the Empath guild is to HEAL people. You are the HEALERS of Elanthia.

Which is why we need NPC victims to enable empaths to be less beholden to the whims of other players.

'Slimy Yet Satisfying' - Miko Mido

Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius

>Then again, in your thinking, my Barbarian never needs to hunt because he can just sit in a class all day and listen to an older Barbarian about weapons. Does that make any IC/RP sense to you? A Barbarian not hunting? A Thief not stealing? An Empath not healing? If you're an Empath, and all you can think about is "Get these bloody leaches off me!", then why did you join the Guild to begin with?

You can RP anything you want.... whether it is a barbarian who refuses to hunt (don't know of any) a thief who does not like to steal (know lots of those) or an empath who wants to kill things or not heal people (know many of those)..

P.S. There are empaths in TF who never/hardly ever heal anyone... um, so your idea that you have to heal to advance is moot. They may not RP in TF, but they can advance just fine without healing.

>Come on, fellas. Throw me a bone here. The most basic & fundamental aspect of the Empath guild is to HEAL people. You are the HEALERS of Elanthia. The Simu Staff did NOT implement Perc Health, Manipulate, & Leaches to have you use it as a primary means to advance a skill. It is there as a supplement.

Ozzie, perhaps you're having a hard time seeing things our way because you just simply have your facts and your logic wrong.

The most basic and fundamental aspect of the Empath Guild is attunement to other living creatures (otherwise known as the empathy skill). This skill is what allows us, among other things, to heal people. To say that healing is our central mission and raison d'etre is an exaggeration, and ignorant of the actual stated focus of our guild.

It's also clear from your statement that you didn't follow any of the actual discussion or explanation that occurred when the Empath GM's announced the various enhancements you listed above. Perc Health, leeches etc, and manipulate were all introduced as ways to extend the range of our guild's abilities. NOT as ways to 'supplement' healing as you put it. They were specifically discussed and specifically intended and specifically developed as alternative ways to learn empathy. Alternative means, you can do one, or you can do another, or all of them, as you see fit. Not, as you put it, you can do this one for variety, but you still have to do the other one in order to advance. What GM statement are you alluding to that states these other methods of learning empathy were intended to 'supplement' healing?

Very thoughtful discussion here.

By the way, to put the matter to rest, in terms of guild history, getting experience for transfering wounds and it being our only means of advancement is actually short-lived.

The guild began with no requirement to heal people whatsoever. We got along for over three years without it--although we did heal out of kindness and an enjoyment for helping others, we were never required to heal until the advent of transference. But, a few years after that, new ways of learning transference, besides healing, were introduced.

Now transference is gone---and hopefully, for good, being as it has maligned our guild quite enough and still manages to do so despite being dead...and gone. Yay! Gone!

So please, I understand that we have an ability and perhaps in some loose ethical sense we are inclined to heal. But that's it. It isn't and should never be an obligation or requirement.

Amorisse

---

"You hurry a miracle man, you get rotten miracles" ~ Miracle Max

This is no ordinary miracle! http://home.sprintmail.com/~hopebuilt

Empaths, join us: http://www.geocities.com/saerhyn/ESC/Coalition.html

<<On the Ranger boards, we've tried countless times to have proposed spells like Ironblood given to us to delay poison/disease, we've even tried to get new beseeches to aid with them, but we were told we'd be stepping on Empath's toes. Seems the Empath's wouldn't feel encroached on since so many are feeling obligated and required to heal.>>

For me, personally, these two sentences describe very different things. The first, regarding "stepping on Empaths' toes" is a game development choice to allow each guild to have its own "niche". The empath guild niche includes healing of physical wounds. Creating an ability for other guilds to heal physical wounds would mean this isn't a niche anymore, which is undesirable from the development perspective, sounds like. On the grand list of "Special things <guild x> can do" healing poison and disease falls under the Empath subheading.

The second sentence, regarding "empaths wouldn't feel encorached on since so many are feeling obligated and required to heal" is a whole other kettle of fish. I really don't believe that game development is based on whether or not it would hurt the players' feelings so much as balance issues like those I mentioned above.

For me personally, my empath doesn't heal very often, but she isn't approached about it very often either. While I don't disagree that some people might be relieved to 'not have to' heal someone's poison because there are other alternatives, I am aware that this is something 'special' I can do, and I, at least, am willing to perform that duty that only I or my guildmates can fulfill. I've never felt obligated to do it, exactly, but it makes me feel like I have a purpose, which I enjoy.

Meghan