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So in the next 12 circles I will have enough ability points to get my second mastery then moving towards my third (and final) mastery. Here is my plan and I'm curious about others thoughts:
1.) Titan - Bonus Augmentation, reduces IF cost of berserking
2.) Tribalist - Boosts debilitation skill and reduces IF forms cost.
3.) Yogi - Allows meditating while standing and engaged at range, reduces RT and cost of meditating.
So some of you may be thinking, "Why not get Powermonger?" Well, that is the question. In economics, if you minimize the cost of something it can outweigh having more money to spend because your purchasing power is greater with the same amount of money when prices are cheaper (Titan, Tribalist, Yogi) for multiple things than getting a straight raise (Powermonger).
1, 2 and 3 give reduced IF cost for berserking, forms and meditations and bonuses to augmentation (some forms, berserks and meditations) and debilitation (roars) skill with the added bonus of not having to kneel out of combat (balance killer) and shorter RT for meditations.
Powermonger gives a bonus to IF skill (what does this mean besides being able to put up maybe one more ability until very high circle?), more precise IF readings (I'm a barb. I don't read), plus to passive IF regeneration limit (similar to the first bonus?).
It seems to me I'll actually get more bang for the buck getting Yogi over Powermonger.
What are your specific thoughts and why?
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
RCHIGHT
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Take me to your master
05/19/2015 04:33 PM CDT
Can someone confirm that these Masteries reduce the ongoing IF costs, not just the startup costs?
GORTEOUS
Re: Take me to your master
05/19/2015 04:54 PM CDT
>> So some of you may be thinking, "Why not get Powermonger?" Well, that is the question. In economics, if you minimize the cost of something it can outweigh having more money to spend because your purchasing power is greater with the same amount of money when prices are cheaper (Titan, Tribalist, Yogi) for multiple things than getting a straight raise (Powermonger).
This works in theory, but not in practice. IF requires a minimum investment to keep it operational. I don't believe that you fully understand the dynamics of how our abilities drain IF.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
This works in theory, but not in practice. IF requires a minimum investment to keep it operational. I don't believe that you fully understand the dynamics of how our abilities drain IF.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Take me to your master
05/19/2015 04:58 PM CDT
>I don't believe that you fully understand the dynamics of how our abilities drain IF.
Where can I read more about that then? My impression was that all abilities have a given startup cost that goes, from most to least, Meditations>Berserks>Forms. Meditations don't require any additional IF to maintain. Forms and Berserks cost a bit of IF as they pulse, with Berserks costing more IF per pulse than Forms. Forms also reduce the passive IF regen set point, and I am unsure if Berserks do or not (I don't believe they do).
Roars cost both a flat IF amount and reduce our voice pool.
Is this correct?
RCHIGHT
Re: Take me to your master
05/19/2015 05:06 PM CDT
>I don't believe that you fully understand the dynamics of how our abilities drain IF.
Danyion you have hit the nail on the head and that is exactly why I'm asking ;-) I want to understand better before I make a choice. I got time though, heh.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Danyion you have hit the nail on the head and that is exactly why I'm asking ;-) I want to understand better before I make a choice. I got time though, heh.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
GORTEOUS
Re: Take me to your master
05/19/2015 09:31 PM CDT
Alright.
Three types of cost: start-up, maintenance, regen.
start-up is when you activate, maintenance is while it's running, regen means it lowers your regen bar.
Forms have a maintenance + regen cost, no startup.
Berserks are startup + maintenance, no regen.
Meditations are just startup.
Every time you put a form up, your regen bar goes down. With Powermonger, the base is 44. If I remember correctly, base is 26.
The lowest you can ever get the regen penalty for a form is -2 for the first, and -3 for subsequent(-1 stacking penalty for each). So at maximum with 5 forms active, -14(2+3+3+3+3)
Here is example of neutral 44 with no abilities active(these forums won't show the dashes properly):
IF Level: (44/80)
******************************************/
I activate turtle, now I'm above the cap and have no IF regen until the bar falls below 38:
You are currently practicing the Turtle Form and will hold focus of it for 88 roisaen.
IF Level: (43/80)
***********************************/**
Back at neutral, which is now 38(-6 regen penalty for Turtle at circle 200):
You are currently practicing the Turtle Form and will hold focus of it for 86 roisaen.
IF Level: (38/80)
************************************/
The main problem with not having Powermonger is that you need that IF buffer to activate and keep your berserks active, and to start meditations .Each berserk is going to zap at least 5 points of fire upon activation, so with a fair number of forms up, you'll only be able to use a maximum of 2 berserks before you have to wait for IF to regen. If you're running 5 forms without Tribalist, it is almost assured that you will be losing IF faster than you regen it, regardless of how much skill you have. You are certainly not going to be running 4 berserks simultaneously.
Gort, with 5 forms active, circle 200.
The threads of control maintaining your focus, rage and calm are now clearly visible.
>
You are currently practicing the Piranha Form and will hold focus of it for 83 roisaen.
You are currently practicing the Monkey Form and will hold focus of it for 83 roisaen.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for 83 roisaen.
You are currently practicing the Turtle Form and will hold focus of it for 78 roisaen.
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for 83 roisaen.
IF Level: (25/80)
***********************/
That dropped regen by 19 points from 44. If I didn't have Powermonger, my regen bar would now be at 7, which is enough to start one berserk.
Now I activate Wildfire and Tornado:
R>
You are currently practicing the Piranha Form and will hold focus of it for 79 roisaen.
You are currently practicing the Monkey Form and will hold focus of it for 79 roisaen.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for 79 roisaen.
You are currently practicing the Turtle Form and will hold focus of it for 74 roisaen.
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for 79 roisaen.
The Wildfire Berserk will rage within you for 9 roisaen.
The Tornado Berserk will rage within you for 9 roisaen.
IF Level: (16/80)
************** - - - - - - - - -/
So that dropped my fire by almost 10 points. If I had a base 26 bar, I would only be able to activate one berserk, and my IF would be at 2/26 - which is dangerously close to zero - where all forms and berserks drop.
You see why this is problematic?
This is why I made the comment that our guild was released in a nerfed state.
Without Powermonger/Tribalist, you will never be able to use all of your buffs simultaneously, no matter how skilled you are. I don't care if you have 1750 in all magics, it just isn't going to happen.
Not even at 200th.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
Three types of cost: start-up, maintenance, regen.
start-up is when you activate, maintenance is while it's running, regen means it lowers your regen bar.
Forms have a maintenance + regen cost, no startup.
Berserks are startup + maintenance, no regen.
Meditations are just startup.
Every time you put a form up, your regen bar goes down. With Powermonger, the base is 44. If I remember correctly, base is 26.
The lowest you can ever get the regen penalty for a form is -2 for the first, and -3 for subsequent(-1 stacking penalty for each). So at maximum with 5 forms active, -14(2+3+3+3+3)
Here is example of neutral 44 with no abilities active(these forums won't show the dashes properly):
IF Level: (44/80)
******************************************/
I activate turtle, now I'm above the cap and have no IF regen until the bar falls below 38:
You are currently practicing the Turtle Form and will hold focus of it for 88 roisaen.
IF Level: (43/80)
***********************************/**
Back at neutral, which is now 38(-6 regen penalty for Turtle at circle 200):
You are currently practicing the Turtle Form and will hold focus of it for 86 roisaen.
IF Level: (38/80)
************************************/
The main problem with not having Powermonger is that you need that IF buffer to activate and keep your berserks active, and to start meditations .Each berserk is going to zap at least 5 points of fire upon activation, so with a fair number of forms up, you'll only be able to use a maximum of 2 berserks before you have to wait for IF to regen. If you're running 5 forms without Tribalist, it is almost assured that you will be losing IF faster than you regen it, regardless of how much skill you have. You are certainly not going to be running 4 berserks simultaneously.
Gort, with 5 forms active, circle 200.
The threads of control maintaining your focus, rage and calm are now clearly visible.
>
You are currently practicing the Piranha Form and will hold focus of it for 83 roisaen.
You are currently practicing the Monkey Form and will hold focus of it for 83 roisaen.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for 83 roisaen.
You are currently practicing the Turtle Form and will hold focus of it for 78 roisaen.
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for 83 roisaen.
IF Level: (25/80)
***********************/
That dropped regen by 19 points from 44. If I didn't have Powermonger, my regen bar would now be at 7, which is enough to start one berserk.
Now I activate Wildfire and Tornado:
R>
You are currently practicing the Piranha Form and will hold focus of it for 79 roisaen.
You are currently practicing the Monkey Form and will hold focus of it for 79 roisaen.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for 79 roisaen.
You are currently practicing the Turtle Form and will hold focus of it for 74 roisaen.
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for 79 roisaen.
The Wildfire Berserk will rage within you for 9 roisaen.
The Tornado Berserk will rage within you for 9 roisaen.
IF Level: (16/80)
************** - - - - - - - - -/
So that dropped my fire by almost 10 points. If I had a base 26 bar, I would only be able to activate one berserk, and my IF would be at 2/26 - which is dangerously close to zero - where all forms and berserks drop.
You see why this is problematic?
This is why I made the comment that our guild was released in a nerfed state.
Without Powermonger/Tribalist, you will never be able to use all of your buffs simultaneously, no matter how skilled you are. I don't care if you have 1750 in all magics, it just isn't going to happen.
Not even at 200th.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
DR-KODIUS
Re: Take me to your master
05/19/2015 09:35 PM CDT
Forms have no startup cost and a moderate pulsing cost. Forms also reduce your passive IF regen limit.
Berserks have a moderate startup cost and a small pulsing cost.
Meditations have a large startup cost and no pulsing cost.
Duelist increases your passive IF regen limit by a large amount when out of combat.
Tribalist reduces the IF pulsing cost of Forms.
Titan reduces the pulse cost of berserking. Upon reflection, this should probably reduce the statup cost a bit too.
Strategos increases the IF gained from killing enemies or hitting players in PvP.
Powermonger gives an IF bonus. This will reduce the cost of using abilities if you haven't capped them.
Yogi allows you to meditate while standing and reduces the startup cost of meditations.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Berserks have a moderate startup cost and a small pulsing cost.
Meditations have a large startup cost and no pulsing cost.
Duelist increases your passive IF regen limit by a large amount when out of combat.
Tribalist reduces the IF pulsing cost of Forms.
Titan reduces the pulse cost of berserking. Upon reflection, this should probably reduce the statup cost a bit too.
Strategos increases the IF gained from killing enemies or hitting players in PvP.
Powermonger gives an IF bonus. This will reduce the cost of using abilities if you haven't capped them.
Yogi allows you to meditate while standing and reduces the startup cost of meditations.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Take me to your master
05/19/2015 10:41 PM CDT
It seems like all those masteries (or at least Powermonger, but also... like... Tribalist, Titan, Strategos and maybe Yogi too?) are required to utilize our abilities though. Why even bother saying Barbs can use the number of forms/zerks/meditations that we purportedly can when it requires at least two Masteries to keep up even a fraction of them? Shouldn't 'using forms and zerks and meditations' be the norm, not unlocking extremely costly abilities deep into skill trees to have a chance of using more than 'a few forms, maybe a zerk, and a meditation'?
Does Powermonger reduce the start up cost or the pulse cost? Will it reduce the regen limit penalty of forms? What results in a greater reduction of cost to forms, Tribalist or Powermonger? Titan or Powermonger? Yogi or Powermonger?
DR-KODIUS
Re: Take me to your master
05/19/2015 10:57 PM CDT
I never said you had to know these abilities to be effective. You grow in your capacity to use more abilities as you gain skill.
This is how magic users work too, to a degree. Many spells cannot be cast at all when first learned. Many provide little to no benefit until you have the ranks to increase their potency.
Magic users have Feats. You could make the same argument with them - Why oh why do we need FEATS to use our spells more effectively???
There are a great many circle 100+ players here that know one or more masteries and claim to be unable to use more than a few abilities at one time. I am able to put up 9-10 without any problem at all after having made the changes to berserks.
Powermonger increases your Inner Fire skill. If you aren't capping an ability, Inner fire skill reduces both the startup and the pulsing costs.
I don't know what gives a larger net return. I repeated my test with Titan and Powermonger and had similar results. Kept up 9-10 abilities constantly.
One thing Barbarian players may be overlooking - is Inner Fire skill. A Magic User with only 250 ranks in magics would not be putting up 15 spells with 30 minute durations either... DR is still a skill based game and players need to realize that backtraining might be necessary to utilize your full potential.
I'll do some more testing on lower circle Barbarians and report back.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
This is how magic users work too, to a degree. Many spells cannot be cast at all when first learned. Many provide little to no benefit until you have the ranks to increase their potency.
Magic users have Feats. You could make the same argument with them - Why oh why do we need FEATS to use our spells more effectively???
There are a great many circle 100+ players here that know one or more masteries and claim to be unable to use more than a few abilities at one time. I am able to put up 9-10 without any problem at all after having made the changes to berserks.
Powermonger increases your Inner Fire skill. If you aren't capping an ability, Inner fire skill reduces both the startup and the pulsing costs.
I don't know what gives a larger net return. I repeated my test with Titan and Powermonger and had similar results. Kept up 9-10 abilities constantly.
One thing Barbarian players may be overlooking - is Inner Fire skill. A Magic User with only 250 ranks in magics would not be putting up 15 spells with 30 minute durations either... DR is still a skill based game and players need to realize that backtraining might be necessary to utilize your full potential.
I'll do some more testing on lower circle Barbarians and report back.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
THOMPSONJ209
Re: Take me to your master
05/19/2015 11:09 PM CDT
and at the end of the day, we still have to pay to not have to sit for meditations (thieves can work this off), we still pay to see duration (thieves get that for free).
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Take me to your master
05/19/2015 11:15 PM CDT
>Magic users have Feats. You could make the same argument with them - Why oh why do we need FEATS to use our spells more effectively???
Respectfully, lets compare - to use cyclics, a magic user pretty much needs Raw Channeling. Deep Attunement is also mightily suggested. To use a Ritual, Improvised Rituals is required. That's 3 feats. Magic terts will have 68 slots by 150th, making those three feats about 4.4% of their total usage. As you know, many guilds have left over slots at 150th.
Lets compare to Barbs - to use 5 forms, you must have two masteries, which means 8 slots, and basically solely investing in the trees to do such. At 150th, barbs have 55 slots. That means picking two masteries (which mind you, doesn't let you use the max forms and zerks, just a few more forms, or a few more zerks, if you want all, you'll need three masteries) represents 14.5% of the total slot usage.
Seem fair to you? Imagine what MUs would say if they were forced to take feats (that cost 4 slots) called 'Multiple Augs' that let them put up a third/fourth Aug spell, and another called 'Multiple Wards' that let them put up a second/third Ward spell. Actually, for magic primes, the equivalent to a 'mastery' with respect to cost / total end slots would be ~6.4 slots.
>A Magic User with only 250 ranks in magics would not be putting up 15 spells with 30 minute durations either...DR is still a skill based game and players need to realize that backtraining might be necessary to utilize your full potential.
Sure, but as I pointed out, a MU can refresh those spells ad libitum without causing them to drop or have a ~1m lag time as they ramp up. We're not talking about needing 1000's of ranks to use Riftal Summons from the furthest point of Elanthia, we're talking about being able to put up >5-6 abilities without investing approximately an 7th of your slot allocation for the privilege of doing so.
I'm not saying out of the box a Barb should be able to use all abilities no problem. But the IF costs for Forms and Berserks feel too high (too damn high!), and the cost of buying into Masteries too punishing.
THOMPSONJ209
Re: Take me to your master
05/19/2015 11:17 PM CDT
As was pointed out, the magic user didn't spend slots to see how much mana they had left. It was at the bottom of the screen, spelled out for them. IF? Not so much.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Take me to your master
05/19/2015 11:39 PM CDT
No... but they do need to spend slots to use mana efficiently, scrolls, sorcery and (I'll get hit by my fellow GMs for this one) to train effectively :P
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
DR-KODIUS
Re: Take me to your master
05/19/2015 11:45 PM CDT
On a side note, would Barbarians be happy with meditating in combat even if it was very weak without great skill (like Thief standing) ?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Take me to your master
05/19/2015 11:50 PM CDT
Sure, like I said, Raw Channeling for a cyclic, Deep Attunement for general casting, and Imp. Rituals if they want to use a ritual. Most of my characters don't bother with much else. Sorcerous Patterns + Magic Theorist, and Efficient Channeling. Mind you, you can forget these whenever you want for a mere gold, and assuming all of them, that's only 6 slots. We're up to 8.8% of the total magic tert toolkit (and my Paladin doesn't bother with a ritual or sorcery...), 7.7% of a total magic secondary toolkit (no ritual for the necro!), and 6.5% of the magic prime toolkit.
Barbs seem to require 3 masteries to be able to use the full allotment of their forms and zerks. That's 12 slots. I just don't think Masteries are really comparable to feats with respect to investment and what they actually unlock - a MU really only needs Magic Theorist and Imp. Rituals to use Sorcery and Rituals - you can use cyclics from harnessed mana (not realistically, but since you suggest Barbs use ANALYZE FLAME every second critter, I suppose asking MUs to harness mana every 30s or so isn't unreasonable either)... Which is a bit of a long shot, so, sure, Magic Theorist, Imp. Rituals, and Raw Channeling. 3 spell slots for feats and an MU is capable of using sorcery, rituals, and cyclics.
12 slots for barbs to learn three masteries. Just sayin'.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Take me to your master
05/19/2015 11:52 PM CDT
>On a side note, would Barbarians be happy with meditating in combat even if it was very weak without great skill (like Thief standing) ?
I personal am not bothered by having to leave combat every ~25m to sit for 10s, but the high IF cost and weirdness with IF is kind of hard to manage. I usually have to drop all 3 of my forms and wait a bit for regen to refresh a Meditation. Truthfully, I kind of wish Yogi allowed MEDITATE [meditation] to refresh the meditation at half cost, available while standing, or something.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 12:22 AM CDT
Yes, I understand all the arguments being made. But there is no quick fix here. Changes must be proposed, approved and implemented. The changes might not even come in the form of buffs to the NMU Guilds. Who knows?
But this is on my radar and I'll keep you updated on our progress.
Oh and one last thing...
Slot costs follow rules. In other words, if a spell is buffing 2 things it costs 2 slots. If it debuffs 2 things and is AoE, it costs 4 slots. Thunderclap is an example of this.
Many Barbarian Roars still follow the old slot costing. This is why Barbarian slot counts were not increased to match Rangers/Paladins.
All Roars are AoE. So in general, roar slot costs would double. But you'd pick up 13 slots in return. Any interest in doing this?
But this is on my radar and I'll keep you updated on our progress.
Oh and one last thing...
Slot costs follow rules. In other words, if a spell is buffing 2 things it costs 2 slots. If it debuffs 2 things and is AoE, it costs 4 slots. Thunderclap is an example of this.
Many Barbarian Roars still follow the old slot costing. This is why Barbarian slot counts were not increased to match Rangers/Paladins.
All Roars are AoE. So in general, roar slot costs would double. But you'd pick up 13 slots in return. Any interest in doing this?
RCHIGHT
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 01:35 AM CDT
>On a side note, would Barbarians be happy with meditating in combat even if it was very weak without great skill (like Thief standing) ?
No, but if Yogi (which is deep into our slots) allowed it (even at melee without the cancelling effect that you get now when attacked while meditating and kneeling out of combat) with the same effect as no Yogi when out of combat, adding the reduced RT and IF cost that is what would make me happy.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
No, but if Yogi (which is deep into our slots) allowed it (even at melee without the cancelling effect that you get now when attacked while meditating and kneeling out of combat) with the same effect as no Yogi when out of combat, adding the reduced RT and IF cost that is what would make me happy.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
RCHIGHT
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 01:39 AM CDT
>All Roars are AoE. So in general, roar slot costs would double. But you'd pick up 13 slots in return. Any interest in doing this?
That's interesting. I'd have to think more about it. When you say pick up 13 slots does that mean 13 additional ability points? If so, I think I'd lean to doing this indeed.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
That's interesting. I'd have to think more about it. When you say pick up 13 slots does that mean 13 additional ability points? If so, I think I'd lean to doing this indeed.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
DR-KODIUS
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 02:24 AM CDT
Yes, you'd gain 13 slots and other abilities would likely cost more as a result. I'd have to do an ability review to see where things fall. Revamping the whole ability tree is a time consuming process and so I've just let things sit. Slightly cheaper abilities. Less Guild slots.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
JARAGONA
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 06:12 AM CDT
>>Titan reduces the pulse cost of berserking. Upon reflection, this should probably reduce the statup cost a bit too. <<
Oh, man. Yes, please!
>>I am able to put up 9-10 without any problem at all after having made the changes to berserks. <<
An awesome improvement, by the way. Thanks!
>>On a side note, would Barbarians be happy with meditating in combat even if it was very weak without great skill (like Thief standing) ?<<
Definintely. So long as with enough skill, one can achieve 100% potency standing. By the way, it's not all that high for thieves. I think in the 600s/700s Inner Magic for any khri, but you have access to that information for exacts. What would you do with Yogi if you adjusted that?
>>All Roars are AoE. So in general, roar slot costs would double. <<
Not true. You have to pick up the 4 slot Strategos mastery for that, Kodius.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
Oh, man. Yes, please!
>>I am able to put up 9-10 without any problem at all after having made the changes to berserks. <<
An awesome improvement, by the way. Thanks!
>>On a side note, would Barbarians be happy with meditating in combat even if it was very weak without great skill (like Thief standing) ?<<
Definintely. So long as with enough skill, one can achieve 100% potency standing. By the way, it's not all that high for thieves. I think in the 600s/700s Inner Magic for any khri, but you have access to that information for exacts. What would you do with Yogi if you adjusted that?
>>All Roars are AoE. So in general, roar slot costs would double. <<
Not true. You have to pick up the 4 slot Strategos mastery for that, Kodius.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
JARAGONA
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 06:31 AM CDT
By the way, I think you guys may be misunderstanding what he means by a weaker version of meditations while standing with lower IF ranks.
Currently, thieves have a few options. Activate khri while prone or sitting, khri delay, and khri while standing. In order to get 100% duration standing, a thief needs x Inner Magic. If he/she does not have enough, he/she can use khri delay or be prone/sit and activate the khri to get more duration than standing alone. By the way, most khri can be put right back up while standing, just with lower durations until enough IM is achieved.
Looking at it this way, I think it'd be a more reasonable design to not make the meditation less potent (aka weaker), but rather less of a duration until enough IF skill is achieved. You can make it consume the same amount of IF, though.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
Currently, thieves have a few options. Activate khri while prone or sitting, khri delay, and khri while standing. In order to get 100% duration standing, a thief needs x Inner Magic. If he/she does not have enough, he/she can use khri delay or be prone/sit and activate the khri to get more duration than standing alone. By the way, most khri can be put right back up while standing, just with lower durations until enough IM is achieved.
Looking at it this way, I think it'd be a more reasonable design to not make the meditation less potent (aka weaker), but rather less of a duration until enough IF skill is achieved. You can make it consume the same amount of IF, though.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
THOMPSONJ209
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 07:29 AM CDT
>>>Looking at it this way, I think it'd be a more reasonable design to not make the meditation less potent (aka weaker), but rather less of a duration until enough IF skill is achieved. You can make it consume the same amount of IF, though.<<<
If this is the choice, I'd be for it.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 07:31 AM CDT
>Slot costs follow rules. In other words, if a spell is buffing 2 things it costs 2 slots. If it debuffs 2 things and is AoE, it costs 4 slots. Thunderclap is an example of this.
I don't think this rule really applies consistently to barbs -
There are pleeeeeeeeenty of barb abilities that do 'one thing' and cost two slots (Piranha, Bastion, Landslide, Toad, Dragon, Eagle), and some that do 'two things' and cost three slots (Slash, Kuniyos). Sure, some of those 'do a more potent thing', so cost an extra slot, but Piranha is a single buff that costs two slots. To get back to the Piranha/Monkey/Python - Harmony comparison, the three forms require 5 slots, Harmony requires 3. Slots are at a much higher premium to barbs.
For spells, it cuts both ways, as there are spells that cost fewer slots than 'things they do' and spells that cost more. I think that's a bit more reasonable, and overall I don't think there's any guild that at 150th doesn't have all their guilds spells + room for selecting at least feats.
>If it debuffs 2 things and is AoE, it costs 4 slots. Thunderclap is an example of this.
Grizzly Claws is a knock back/knock down AoE that costs 2 slots. Desert Maelstrom is a Discipline Debuff +pulsing balance debuff AoE that costs 3 slots. You're right of course that most AoE debils that do a few things are 4 slots, which is costly, but it's also costly to MUs, who have slots to spare. A slot to slot comparison isn't equivalent when Barbs have fewer slots at 150th than any other guild, have to pay through the nose for abilities, and at the end of it all, unless they've taken 2-3 masteries, are unable to use those abilities.
But anyway, I'm repeating myself again, so, thank you for hearing me out.
JARAGONA
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 07:42 AM CDT
I think it's good you're pointing it out, Jhalia.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
THOMPSONJ209
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 07:52 AM CDT
Another example of this is our eagle form. It costs 2 slots
Ranger's See the Wind, costs 1 slot
War Mage's Tailwind, costs 1 slot
They seem to do the same thing, but ours is more exp, according to elanthipedia
JARAGONA
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 08:02 AM CDT
I think the second slot cost to that is to unlock dual load. I have no idea if dual load costs rangers a slot.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
THOMPSONJ209
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 08:17 AM CDT
Yeah, I had thought of that. However, the ranger spell isn't 2.
JARAGONA
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 08:20 AM CDT
So they inherently get dual load at no cost? If so, maybe our dual load cost should be up for revision.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 08:21 AM CDT
To Dual Load, Rangers must have Hands of Larisa up. HoL buffs Skinning and Locksmithing (and allows Dual Load), and costs 2 slots. So that's 'three things' for two slots, though admittedly, one of those things isn't combat related, though I don't think that's really relevant.
NINEVAH1
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 08:25 AM CDT
>>Looking at it this way, I think it'd be a more reasonable design to not make the meditation less potent (aka weaker), but rather less of a duration until enough IF skill is achieved. You can make it consume the same amount of IF, though.
Just to clarify this, potency is tied to duration with Khri. There is a point where potency is maxed and it's just duration, but it's pretty close to max duration. So meditations being less potent in this scenario would actually match up with how Khri work.
Sitting/kneeling lowers the minimum amount of skill needed to start the Khri, so it will make your Khri more powerful before you max it. Delay lowers the max cap of skill that is needed to start a Khri, so will allow you to max it out sooner. Together they can make your Khri much more powerful at lower skill ranks, but as stated earlier in the thread the majority of Khri can be started at max potency by around 600/700 ranks while standing. Sagacity and Guile take more than that, but I don't have enough ranks to find out.
Just to clarify this, potency is tied to duration with Khri. There is a point where potency is maxed and it's just duration, but it's pretty close to max duration. So meditations being less potent in this scenario would actually match up with how Khri work.
Sitting/kneeling lowers the minimum amount of skill needed to start the Khri, so it will make your Khri more powerful before you max it. Delay lowers the max cap of skill that is needed to start a Khri, so will allow you to max it out sooner. Together they can make your Khri much more powerful at lower skill ranks, but as stated earlier in the thread the majority of Khri can be started at max potency by around 600/700 ranks while standing. Sagacity and Guile take more than that, but I don't have enough ranks to find out.
THOMPSONJ209
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 08:26 AM CDT
Ah, gotcha. I thought it was see the wind, that allowed dual load. Thanks.
JARAGONA
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 08:37 AM CDT
If meditations (in combat) were linked to the khri system concept, maybe it'd make sense to scale potency and duration together. That way it's not super weaksauce until you get 650 IF, but it'll keep growing in potency and duration until you reach the cap with enouh IF ranks. Possibly give it different descriptors to show how potent it is. Thoughts?
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 10:07 AM CDT
>>>>
Forms have no startup cost and a moderate pulsing cost. Forms also reduce your passive IF regen limit.
Berserks have a moderate startup cost and a small pulsing cost.
Meditations have a large startup cost and no pulsing cost.
Duelist increases your passive IF regen limit by a large amount when out of combat.
Tribalist reduces the IF pulsing cost of Forms.
Titan reduces the pulse cost of berserking. Upon reflection, this should probably reduce the statup cost a bit too.
Strategos increases the IF gained from killing enemies or hitting players in PvP.
Powermonger gives an IF bonus. This will reduce the cost of using abilities if you haven't capped them.
Yogi allows you to meditate while standing and reduces the startup cost of meditations.<<<<
Can someone update epedia with this, I can't edit the graph on the abilities page.
Does Stragos also unlock roar AREA still?
Does powermonger do anything if you've capped your abilities other than an IF bonus?
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Forms have no startup cost and a moderate pulsing cost. Forms also reduce your passive IF regen limit.
Berserks have a moderate startup cost and a small pulsing cost.
Meditations have a large startup cost and no pulsing cost.
Duelist increases your passive IF regen limit by a large amount when out of combat.
Tribalist reduces the IF pulsing cost of Forms.
Titan reduces the pulse cost of berserking. Upon reflection, this should probably reduce the statup cost a bit too.
Strategos increases the IF gained from killing enemies or hitting players in PvP.
Powermonger gives an IF bonus. This will reduce the cost of using abilities if you haven't capped them.
Yogi allows you to meditate while standing and reduces the startup cost of meditations.<<<<
Can someone update epedia with this, I can't edit the graph on the abilities page.
Does Stragos also unlock roar AREA still?
Does powermonger do anything if you've capped your abilities other than an IF bonus?
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
JARAGONA
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 10:32 AM CDT
IIRC, Powermonger puts the passive IF regen cap at a starting value of 50%.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
RCHIGHT
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 11:29 AM CDT
It looks to me like Duelist, which unlocks meditate duel, is primarily for PVP since it only increases the passive IF for 10 minutes and must be started out of combat. Is this assumption correct? Can you start it in combat ("ranged" range or farther) with Yogi?
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
DR-KODIUS
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 09:19 PM CDT
>>Not true. You have to pick up the 4 slot Strategos mastery for that, Kodius
You can ROAR and affect everything engaged with you, even without Strategos. Strategos lets you hit everything regardless of engagement.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
You can ROAR and affect everything engaged with you, even without Strategos. Strategos lets you hit everything regardless of engagement.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
DR-KODIUS
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 09:21 PM CDT
>>I don't think this rule really applies consistently to barbs -
My explanation is correct. But I wasn't even trying to be 100% accurate with the examples I provided. The rules list for slot costs is quite long and involved.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
My explanation is correct. But I wasn't even trying to be 100% accurate with the examples I provided. The rules list for slot costs is quite long and involved.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
DR-KODIUS
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 09:26 PM CDT
Dragon/Eagle
Those - and any abilities doing the same thing - should cost 2 slots. An weapon skill buff is twice as effective as a parry/shield/evasion buff, is why.
Please understand that many spells were written over the course of years, and achieving the correct slot cost just didn't happen in some instances. I'd much rather have Barbarian abilities cost the correct amount so I don't get a reputation as that dude always overpowering his Guild... and so things aren't always having to be fixed (nerfed) :/
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Those - and any abilities doing the same thing - should cost 2 slots. An weapon skill buff is twice as effective as a parry/shield/evasion buff, is why.
Please understand that many spells were written over the course of years, and achieving the correct slot cost just didn't happen in some instances. I'd much rather have Barbarian abilities cost the correct amount so I don't get a reputation as that dude always overpowering his Guild... and so things aren't always having to be fixed (nerfed) :/
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Take me to your master
05/20/2015 10:33 PM CDT
>Please understand that many spells were written over the course of years, and achieving the correct slot cost just didn't happen in some instances. I'd much rather have Barbarian abilities cost the correct amount so I don't get a reputation as that dude always overpowering his Guild... and so things aren't always having to be fixed (nerfed) :/
I recognize that game balance is akin to juggling dozens of lit molotov cocktails and trying not to drop any, and that sometimes some splatter hits the floor. Evasion costing 2 slots seems more or less in line for most of the games abilities, a few exceptions being exceptions, not the rule.
