Well, keep in mind that Forms immediately apply some of the boost when used. They just take 60 seconds to hit top strength. If things get hairy and you need a HUGE boost, throw up a berserk. I mean, that IS what they are there for. Berserks will no longer have the massive penalties associated with using them, and if you are already in combat and not maxing out your # of forms using one should be no problem.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>I see the time delay comparing to a prep time for a spell, but even mages can get maximum buffs up in about 20 seconds.

Per spell. Based on Room specific mana. And they don't get a partial bonus while prepping.

I can see your concern, kind of (please learn to use line breaks), is that a routine hunting ability you have decided you're going to have up at all times, based on current abilities, is going to take a 'wind up' period to hit full strength. Really, most guilds deal with this already without the benefit of a windup (it's either all there or not), and I believe only thieves and barbs have no prep routine abilities.

Before lobbying for massive changes, why not wait and see how Combat 3.0 interacts with Barbs 3.0 (or whatever rev they're on). GMs are making it sound like we will be, in general, playing with individual critters much longer, at fewer numbers, and that 'one more' won't be the insta-death it is now.

>>From a playability standpoint, that lag in effect is going to be a really big deal.

No it's not going to be a big deal. 60 seconds is nothing, please don't try to make it into a problem. If having 4 critters on you is too deadly for you without any abilities then you'll just need to improvise until the max benefit from your forms come into place.

>>No, you've missed the point. I'd prefer not to have forms up at all times, and I currently don't dance 24/7

If this is the case I'm not sure what the problem with a mere 60 seconds is?

>>My 90s WM can cycle all of his main buffs to max in about a minute using cambrinth (SF, SW, YS, ES).

And it'll take a similar amount of time (not including meditations) for a Barb to put all his/her buffs up to max power. Roundtime is no issue here since forms will have a really small RT for activation.

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Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

>>I don't know if in Magic 3.0 that this will be the same for MUs, but it does kinda suck that we have to wait for our abilities to kick into full power after they've already been cast.

Waiting for full power is a lot better than the alternative, considering berserks are supposed to be the abilities suited for instant power and speed. And the fact that forms can last up to an hour.

For example if forms are changed to instant max power or winds up at 30 seconds, then it's possible that more RT would be added, or the overall duration cut short.Why? Because the actual purpose of berserks are supposed to be instant effectiveness, and if forms eclipse this benefit then expect forms to take a hit elsewhere.

If more RT is added then the overall amount of time needed to be fully buffed would actually be more than the 70 or so seconds it'd take with the current proposal, RT included.

At this point, I think it's best to wait and see everything in practice before assuming something needs to be changed. I PvP, spar, and train a lot. 60 seconds really doesn't seem bad.

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Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

>>From a playability standpoint, that lag in effect is going to be a really big deal.

My thief hunts without buffs up, due to how Khri work, for about 2-3 minutes every 20 minutes. A 30 second wind up time is NOTHING. QQ more.

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TG, TG, GL, et al.

I really can't agree with you Vin. It's really easy to buff for any guild. If I have to spend a minute fully buffing myself, which is fine, and then wait another minute to have those abilities kick in fully, I'll probably avoid doing it when I don't have to. I train with the mindset if I need buffs to survive, I'm not doing it right. The only buffs I really use right now are Eagle, Panther and Wolverine/Cobra(depends which blunt I'm using). And the only reason I really use Eagle is for dual load to lock up my bow faster and for thrown. I don't really need the others. I just use them so I can hit harder and hide easier.

I don't care if the forms last an hour honestly, there's a good chance I'm going to be changing what I'm using depending on which weapon I train. Unless there's some big penalty for ending a form early, I'll be swapping just like I do now and won't ever see a full hour of any of them. Right now, Eagle's up for the 10 minutes I'm training bow, then I'm swapping to something else to work. My dances never end on their own currently. And yes I know there's no real reason I'd need to change them with the new system, but there are times I'd need a different boost so I'd drop the perception boost since I don't really need it for hunting. I'd rather have full use of my abilities as soon as they are done being applied rather than have to wait another 60 seconds after that.

>>If you need the full effect of buffs the moment you walk into a hunting area, then you are overhunting and will probably end up dead in a short period of time anyway. I see nothing wrong with a 60 second wait to achieve full effect.

We've been told we're all underhunting. In order to hunt at the bleeding edge -- with defenses 50 ranks higher than weapons -- you have to dance or berserk. The goal is to have everyone at the bleeding edge, ipso facto, everyone using their buffs all the time.

>>If Barbarians don't want this can we have it for Khri please? I'd love to have an hour long Spar if I only had to wait a minute for it to be full strength.

You'd get it in three pieces.

It's the most confusing part of the change, honestly. If it's about mimicking mage prep: why? If not, it just seems like a lot of additional coding work for no discernible reason. It doesn't tie into our lore, either.

<<If you need the full effect of buffs the moment you walk into a hunting area, then you are overhunting and will probably end up dead in a short period of time anyway. I see nothing wrong with a 60 second wait to achieve full effect.>>

Seriously? Who said anything about needing buffs the moment you walk into a hunting area. Please read, then comment.

Honestly, the same suggestions could be made for a lot of the commands in the game. Why not cut weapon Roundtime in half? Why not cut spell preparation in half?

There is a lot of assumptions going on here, all of which could be for nothing as everything could change tomorrow. I think your concerns in regards to this issue would be better placed after the system is released and after you have definitively concluded that you do not like the system after having tried it out.

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~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

> Barb hunts without anything up, most of the time. I usually use eagle to help lock bow and thrown for a short duration, and activate badger for those scenarios where a fourth critter comes in and I'll probably die. I don't overhunt, as has been stated if you can survive the fourth critte YOU ARE UNDERHUNTING. Grow some balls.<

Heh, different strategies, interesting. I usually hunt with nothing up as well, but unlike you I hunt through it until I get stunned and then berserk stone. Sometimes I will berserk nightmare before the stun and still have the stone/blood option as well. If it really is a life or death situation stone+blood+nightmare+roars+brawling left with the finisher right can get me out of almost any at or slightly above level creature hunting situation. I usually can keep right on hunting without any major penalty as long as I have killed my way through a majority of the berserks. trust me it really does chew through crowds amazingly well with the right stats and when you can roar your opponents out of the room or crazy off balance or to their knees with the nightmare berserk and high charisma. I am going to miss this strategy if it is not possible in the new system because it just feels barbaric and is fun.

On topic I don't see a problem with a warm-up period mainly because it makes sense that it would take some time to find the form. Maybe have it reduce with more skill? That would seem to make sense.

>>Are MU's getting penalized the same way with their spells?

Not the same way, no. In different ways, yes.

__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

I believe it's a valid concern.

If the abilities were something that we can "renew" before it expires (like most spells are), then I don't think we'd have an issue.

The notion that we shouldn't need our abilities to hunt at level is seriously flawed.

And the prospect of being forced to clear everything and find some place quiet for 2 min every hour seems a little silly considering how long it takes to get things moving these days.

Somewhere I remember reading something about wrapping chosen sets of abilities into one activation command. That might ease the prep time...

> And the prospect of being forced to clear everything and find some place quiet for 2 min every hour seems a little silly considering how long it takes to get things moving these days.

I don't think that's the prospect at all.. the idea is to have multiple forms/zerks/meditations rolling at once. If one form wearing out and taking 60 seconds to reach max capability again (you still get portion of the benefit upon initiation) is going to kill you, I think you might be doing it wrong.

>>I train with the mindset if I need buffs to survive, I'm not doing it right.<<

^This.

I get that the GM's want us to hunt on the bleeding edge (Futility) and that Zubba wants people to grow some balls, or whatever, but I'm of the opinion that dying in combat is stupid and unnecessary. It's a huge waste of time both on the front end and the back end. The front end meaning that all your field experience is gone, and the back end meaning that if you depart right away, you've got to wait out the death sickness and might lose some ranks/tdp's, and if you don't depart, then you've got to wait for a raise or at least a rejuv. Not interested.

If critters and combat were structured differently and there were an absolute hard cap, then I would be forced to change my hunting tactics. If I went to blood wolves and all training of any kind ceased at 90 ranks in the weapons, armor, lore, survival, and magic skillsets, I would be forced to move on to something more challenging, or accept the fact that my shield, evasion, parry, multi, appraisal, and leather all shut off at 90 while I tried to train 5 weapons to that level.


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NMUs are not people. -GM Armifer

<<I get that the GM's want us to hunt on the bleeding edge (Futility) and that Zubba wants people to grow some balls, or whatever, but I'm of the opinion that dying in combat is stupid and unnecessary. It's a huge waste of time both on the front end and the back end.>>

You think I want my character to die? Umm, no I don't. If I could push the magic avoid death button I would. I think what a lot of people are failing to see is that this notion of having 3 or 4 forms up is going to be reserved for the HIGH end of things, if I'm wrong about this, please correct me.

In 3.0 thre is obviously a push to limit the number of boosts a specific spell/ability has. Swirling Winds for WMs is losing it's parry bonus for example (it's moving over to Sure Footing). If you look at our proposed abilities you'll see that forms are going to be MUCH more compartmentalized, so you will need three or four forms to equal one dance that we currently have. I do not have ANY issue with this at all, what I have a concern about is how your average 60-80th circle Barb is going to be able to use these boosts when hunting at level.

>This is the first that I've heard of rolling forms. Activate a form, start fighting for awhile, activate another while fighting...? What's the point of that?

I...really? I mean...you..really? I'm at a loss for words.

>My higher circle barb doesn't often use his abilities unless he wants to backtrain or test something but he's not fighting things that lock his primary weapon skill in less than an hour. When he fights things that can train weapons better they tend to one-shot him unless he's got dragon or badger or maybe a zerk going so I tend to stay away for now.

Wow. I think I've had badger dance going for about a year straight. In fact, if I'm in combat, I always have a dance going whether I'm backtraining or hunting at level.

Why wouldn't you use the abilities that you have? Even in situations like above where the things you hunt are not at the edge of your abilities, cobra or bear dance can do wonders for training.

<< I...really? I mean...you..really? I'm at a loss for words. >>

I haven't been playing much at all for the last 5 years but I did go to the last barb meeting with Kodius and have read everything I can over the course of the last month or three. Rolling forms isn't mentioned - lots of forms is - having to cast lots of forms (that last an hour) is. But if you're going into a combat situation, why not have everything that you can have, up at once (assuming that you need anything at all)? Especially if that's how you get barb-magic xp? Being in cycles where any 2 of 4 forms that you can cast are up or down depending on my whims sounds a bit silly and counterproductive if you need them all up to get magic xp and/or fight comfortably.

<<
Wow. I think I've had badger dance going for about a year straight. In fact, if I'm in combat, I always have a dance going whether I'm backtraining or hunting at level.

Why wouldn't you use the abilities that you have? Even in situations like above where the things you hunt are not at the edge of your abilities, cobra or bear dance can do wonders for training.
>>

I use the abilities (some) when I need an emergency boost or to react to a bad situation but generally, for killing most of the critters my higher level barb fights, I don't need anything special. Bear or cobra results in things dying faster but then my barb is stuck in an empty room for awhile and he gains less xp per kill (I think) and less defensive xp (definitely). He hasn't been close to dying in awhile, he's doing some back training and his defenses are catching up to his primary weapon. If he's fighting something tough then he needs "everything" (D -AND- O) all the time and he still occasionally gets 1-shot when something drops and I don't notice. And then he gets stuck trying to dig his things out of an area where he needs a big boost (that he won't be able to cast effectively for 15+ min) to survive - or just spends a lot of favors (and time getting lots of favors).

My 30s barb is using berserks constantly, though, and he needs them. He'll be dancing more as his stats and circles go up.

I'm really not trying to turn this into any sort of complaint... I have complaints but not about anything that I know isn't being worked on.

I'm eager for more info about the new barb abilities and how they are going to be used, however. And I'm a little concerned; I was there when dances and roars got nerfed to hell the last time (and the new berserks got introduced) and it wasn't pretty. I have seen a couple red flags and a couple non-red flags so far but still feel inclined to get more info before digging in with an opinion.

But 2+ minutes of downtime every hour would mean no fighting and a loss of a hunting spot for my lowbie barb and that is a mild concern. My higher barb is in plat and has no hunting ground competition so I'm not worried about that there...

<<2+ minutes of downtime per hour

Speaking as someone who exists under this model - Bard enchantes = frequent periods of no buffs - I think you're overestimating the negative effects of a reduced strength start. Like Bards, you will have AoE instant abilities to shut down enemies between buffs if needed, and unlike Bards, you'll still be partially buffed during the 'downtime.' All this without even accounting for the more stable damage of combat 3.0.

-Evran

Gay, geeky, and a little bit cheeky.

<<But 2+ minutes of downtime every hour would mean no fighting >>

Oh come on, use a berserk or leave and go climb a tree, swim a broke, read a compendium, take a break, go to the bathroom, 2 minutes is nothing.

And read the post by Kodius, it's not going to be all doom and gloom. Wait to it gets released and try it before you start complaining about how much it is going to hurt your hunting style.