Over the next hour or so, justice will be turned on in Crafting Societies that are within city limits.

Please keep this in mind while engaging in nefarious activities.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

>>Anyone have a list of necro-friendly crafting societies then?

Only Lava Forge AFAIK.

>>LOL my bad...

This is why we can't have nice things.

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>>If it's simply one horses ass ruining things for all necromancers, the individual should be punished, not the whole, since the whole has no power to do so.

I believe it's been many of them over the course of the guild that brought on these changes. The Ranger guild was used as a safe haven for years before they finally changed it to justice recently to run the Necros out. I believe the latest one has just made these holes in justice more obvious.

Plus IIRC Raesh has been doing work on other parts of the justice system lately.

>>Now it seems our options are either hang out in highly populated justice areas or... don't participate in the crafting system.

While I completely agree with your point of needing non-justice Societies, this isn't exactly true. The only Society you have to spend time in is the Forging Societies, and you have the Lava Forge for that. Every other craft is trainable/useable outside of the Societies, and you only have to go there for supplies. So Necros aren't locked out of anything, they just made it much harder for you all to participate.

>>I'm fairly sure this was mostly in response to folks teaching thievery there.

Very possible that's true since I just based it on the complaints I've heard of Necros using it as a place to hang in town and avoid justice, not sure how true that's been recently.

> you have the Lava Forge for that

Will the lava forge be the new belt knife? Anyone seen entering or leaving is killed for being a necro?

Ugh, not happy with this change. Forging was already a pain due to not having many options and the few times I've gone to play with it a little the anvils have been occupied 2-3 people deep. I would like one in our guild halls now, but even that is less than perfect since people will obviously know who you are when using them instead of being relatively unknown even amongst yourselves.

Would have been better if nefarious acts inside the place were reportable and there was a door guard that prevented entry for said individuals for a set period of time.

>The fact they didn't have justice didn't make any sense to me anyways.

Because playability trumps game logic, until someone burns the building down for every other player. Lazzo.

I also was aware that the rooms were nonjustice, but did not take that as an open invitation to summon zombies and cast necromancer spells. The buildings are about the only reason I venture into town, a glance to see if a forge isn't occupied, a few items produced, and back into the wilds I go. The problem is that forges are already in short supply, limiting access further does not really help the game any. If town crafthalls were justice enabled while a few forge spots were added to the guildhalls, this wouldn't be an issue. A necromancer could simply be in there crafting and not interacting with anyone, but if known to others being in a public location makes for easy accusing and ramping up social outrage that would otherwise be unwarranted (and even unearned if not for the fact there are so few training locations as it is).

Keeping the existing buildings justice is fine and appropriate. It was never reasonable to expect them to remain non-justice forever.

There just really needs to be more buildings, for all crafting. Not just for this reason but for a host of others.

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Crafting societies are really a no brainer when calmly looked at. A) In town = justice area. B) "Why aren't there any outside of towns then?" Basic economics there. It does not behoove a town/province to build something outside a protected area due to loss risk(raiders/orcs/goblins/elpazi etc out there). Would you build a shiny new whatever store in a warzone or where the heart of commerce is? That is what crafting SOCIETIES boil down to. Society/civilization, which necromancers are supposed to be avoiding to evade detection.

That's why the guild is hard mode. By choosing it you are accepting the fact that you will be giving up certain things, convenience being one of them. Necromancers are the stuff of shadows, that go bump in the night. They are not intended to be social butterflies, master craftsmen or entrepenures. They are supposed to be scuttling from one hiding place to another, hidden away from the world studying the great work. IF you are doing it right and manage that hiding in plain sight thing, you would not do something or go somewhere that would risk that hard fought for and elaborate ruse. Like a building in the middle of a city patrolled or frequented by among other things, the most powerful adventurers alive that more or less would kill you as soon as sneeze. Most always forget that, while yes there is a countable population of adventurers around at any given time, towns and cities of Elanthia are still populated by millions of farmers, shop owners, beggars, guardsmen, civil bureaucrats, the wives/husbands and children of these people, and the rest of the general population that are all in fear for their daily lives and will just as soon alert the authorities to the presence of a necromancer as they would a fox in their hen house. While interacting with NPC's is usually just shops and guildleaders...there is an entire society that exists still out there that is not seen or heard from every moment of daily life.

Playability is not always a valid argument when taken into the context of a society as a whole.

>Necromancers are hard mode and should suck!

The problem with this philosophy is that it rapidly escalates to 'let's lock the necromancers open, never let them buy gear, never let them use a bank, disable 'give' and 'accept' and 'getting items off the ground' and other bizarre things which punish an already difficult guild.

I think necromancers should be more difficult. I just think it's dickish to passive agressively block them from crafting because craft halls.

The entire concept of 'crafting' halls is an OOC construct. If we're putting 'in a real world' spins on this (and you did) any moron can walk in to a foundry and order the tools he would need to set up his own on-site crafting, and have it delivered to where he wanted.

The problem is that doesn't work for a game. But telling Necros 'so sorry, suck it up and move along' isn't the right response either.

>Playability is not always a valid argument when taken into the context of a society as a whole.

Playability is always a valid argument when we're discussing people being soft-locked out of entire skill sets which the GMs have spent years creating. The other option of 'haha, sucks to be you, make a new character noob' is stupid. The reason this is a playability concern is that there are no non-justice crafting halls (lolz lava lolz). If there were, it wouldn't be a concern. But there are not, so it is.

>> Do note: They're not patrolled justice areas.

What does that mean? I'm assuming it means that I can't get arrested for my warrants there, because no guards, but does it also mean that Necromancers can't get mobbed there?

>> The entire concept of 'crafting' halls is an OOC construct. If we're putting 'in a real world' spins on this (and you did) any moron can walk in to a foundry and order the tools he would need to set up his own on-site crafting, and have it delivered to where he wanted.

That's actually a good point, and I could swear that I saw someone making weapons at a non-forge location. Is this a thing, or was I mistaken? If it isn't a thing yet, there's your solution right there: make crafting societies superfluous. My idea for the system would be this: collect rocks, arrange rocks, forage log (x5+), put log in rocks, light log, boom you got a portable foundry/forge. Probably would need an additional, reusable item to sit on top and hold the metal, but I definitely think there's something here, if it isn't already in the game.

>> Playability is always a valid argument when we're discussing people being soft-locked out of entire skill sets which the GMs have spent years creating. The other option of 'haha, sucks to be you, make a new character noob' is stupid. The reason this is a playability concern is that there are no non-justice crafting halls (lolz lava lolz). If there were, it wouldn't be a concern. But there are not, so it is.

I'm in full agreement, re: playability is always a valid argument. Really though, and it's been said already, you're not being soft-locked out of an entire skill set, even remotely. To train/practice all but one of the crafting systems in the game, you only need to visit the societies to get your tools and materials, which makes them pretty much just shops, and I don't see a rallying cry to make all shops non-justice areas. That means that the only society for which this argument makes any sense at all is forging, because you've got to stand around the forge, and there is a forge outside of justice, and yes that sucks that there aren't more, but there almost certainly will be, if not the portable forge (or some other version) I suggested above. What you're dealing with right now is a transitional period; it's like back when the guild had just released and there was only one guild hall. Did it suck for non-Zoluren Necromancers to have to travel back to Crossing to circle? I can say from experience that I was annoyed, but I accepted it, knowing that there would be a day when that wasn't the case any longer. The same is certainly true here. Use the Lava forge and wait for the system to get more locations.

Of course, I'm still firmly in the camp that we should make the societies unnecessary, and I'd be willing to bet that's actually already the aim, as more and more of the crafting systems come out and we see the ability to make stuff that was originally only purchasable, which is sort of the whole point. In addition to having an option for a portable foundry/forge, I think all of the various crafting systems should have similar society-free mechanisms, like collecting wool fibers from sheep to spin into thread to weave into fabric to sew with other thread into a hat.

I

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"[A]ll PC necromancers are now redeemed good guys..." ~ GM Raesh

>> Do note: They're not patrolled justice areas.

>>What does that mean?

Not Raesh, but what it means is that there are not guards that wander around inside of the crafting halls. This means there is not that passive risk for arrest for those with an outstanding warrant, and that there are not right-there guards to ACCUSE someone to.

It does not mean that someone can't get more charges for things they do in there, because that's exactly what the change did make happen. It also does not entirely protect someone from being Hounded there, but to be fair, the Hounds already don't strictly care if you are in a justice zone or not when they come to dispense their fanatical mob murder-justice, they just tend to be summoned via interactions within justice zones more often than otherwise. Other outcomes related to being a Necromancer in a justice zone are just as possible to happen in a crafting hall as anywhere else in a justice zone that doesn't directly require a guard to wander into the room you're in.


>> Really though, and it's been said already, you're not being soft-locked out of an entire skill set, even remotely. To train/practice all but one of the crafting systems in the game, you only need to visit the societies to get your tools and materials, which makes them pretty much just shops

This is completely accurate. You are no more hindered from buying your supplies or interacting with the shopkeeper portions of the crafting halls than you are with any other shop. It's just a lot less safe now to hang out in there doing things that are illegal in a justice zone, whether that's to use the stationary crafting tools while being a Necromancer who would rather not deal with the ACCUSE system over that long period of time, or to teach illegal classes and not get charges, or murder people and not get charges, or to shift people and not get charges, etc.


>> That means that the only society ...(related to this issue)... is forging, because you've got to stand around the forge, and there is a forge outside of justice

This is also correct.


>>that sucks that there aren't more, but there almost certainly will be

While I'm not usually directly involved in the placement of new crafting halls, I will say that this is not a bad assumption.


>>if not the portable forge (or some other version) I suggested above.

Magical portal forge/foundry devices do in fact exist, both as the scoin version mentioned by another poster, and as an auction item that is not entirely unlikely to be seen again. Enterprising justice-adverse folks could potentially get themselves one of these and perhaps even work out a system of meet ups in non-justice areas with other said justice-adverse folks who might want to also make use of this sort of thing.

-Persida

SO doesn't drain while in a justice area, you can be accused of necromancy, and aren't able to use most of your abilities without consequence. I think that covers it. Basically justice areas just make it harder to necro.

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Also, and I could be wrong, I believe there is a counter that increases your chances of being successfully accused while inside justice, that goes up the longer you stay in the open inside a justice zone till it hits 100% chance for success. So if they choose to use the Society based tools for everyday crafting, then eventually anyone can accuse them of necromancy and get them arrested/burned.

Shouldn't Rite of Contrition pretty much settle this problem?

>>> Wrong kind of outrage. RoC is for divine and the issue here is social.

My understanding was that it also prevented accrual of suspicion that allowed you to be accused, which I thought was the major problem here. I think I need to be enlightened about what the problem is. The effects of being in a justice zone include:

1) Ability of a player to accuse you of necromancy, which increases the longer you spend in a justice zone (and is countered by RoC)
2) Social Outrage doesn't drain in a justice zone
3) Inability to interact with NPCs (except bank withdrawals, debt payment and gear recovery) with enough social outrage (presumably not an issue with societies)
4) Arrests/Purging with enough social outrage (I presume arrests would not occur, but I imagine purging can happen.)
5) Ability to receive warrants / SO in a justice zone (don't perform sorcery or other crimes in a justice zone and there will be no problems).

AFAICT the only major problem is 4. Am I missing something?

How Accuse Necro Works:

Joe Accuses you of being a necro. If you have an obvious tell up (Necromancy in place, a title, that sort of thing) guess what? You're guilty, bring on the mobs.

Okay, let's assume that's not the case. Now, most likely, their accusation will fail (And if Joe keeps failing he can get fined for it). After all, there's nothing about you that screams "NECROMANCER". There is a chance that they'll believe the accusation anyhow, and fun times follow. This is known as a "false accusation" and can apply to anyone, necro or not.

However, the longer a necro remains in a justice area the greater the chance of a "false" accusation to work. This isn't true social outrage and it resets fairly fast after leaving justice (No code access at the moment so I can't check exactly how long it is, but we're talking like a half hour? Hours? Certainly not days or weeks like social outrage). It's just there to encourage people to scamper along.

As for the patrol thing, Persida basically covered it. You aren't going to randomly find guards in the crafting halls. This means that if your:

a) Not actively committing major crimes which can trigger an auto arrested.

b) Not actively being hunted by a posse for outstanding crimes.

c) Not being actively accused (Or you are being actively accused but you don't have necromantic tells up and aren't sticking around for a long period of time...)

There's not much to worry about.

Now, if you're actively seeking out trouble while in there, that's a whole different issue.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose