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SHAWN255
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 04:08 AM CST
At the end of the day.. I think the best thing from this thread is the idea for some sort of confirm feature to depart, and perhaps a standard setting option as well.
I hope they do something with that.
Down the road though.. I hope they revisit death in general.
DR-ANNWYL
Re: War and grave robbers ::Nudge::
01/12/2016 06:40 AM CST
Reminder, keep the discussion both constructive and civil.
Dial it back on the overly hostile responses at each other.
Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor
If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 08:13 AM CST
>>It could be the janitor too, and the auto grave spew mechanics. It could be adan'f shadow mages that pick up items dropped on the ground and put them in their cloaks, or scavenger trolls, or trollkins.
You're literally referencing things that have been updated so they screw over players less and less because they're not that enjoyable.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
You're literally referencing things that have been updated so they screw over players less and less because they're not that enjoyable.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
SHADOWCHIEF2
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 02:07 PM CST
I think actually that a lot of folks are on the same page as Tyrun. I for one like some of the stuff in game that is more risky. Have these things got updated to be less risky? yes. But I don't think it was ever on that large of a scale. Most likely the 1/4 of the population that might have whined and cried about said things, just made the GM's not want to have to deal with the complaining of said folks. More or less.
But this conversation has kind of got off track. I still think you should probably just be able to set your default depart settings. Case closed. If you don't have the favors to hack it, then tough luck.
But this conversation has kind of got off track. I still think you should probably just be able to set your default depart settings. Case closed. If you don't have the favors to hack it, then tough luck.
ACKERSONC1
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 02:53 PM CST
I find arguments about the way the game has trended over the past 20 years pretty unconvincing-
By this logic, with the evolution of the PVP profile system and all the changes to PVP consent over the years, one could say that soon everyone will be PVP Open and GMs won't waste time anymore on PVP consults. Or because of how much easier/less of a grind learning skills has become, maybe they should just do away with it entirely- eliminating much of the hated AFK scripting.
Deaths: 313 Departs: 229
Never been graverobbed, never run out of favors even near to the point where I could be. Never lost anything even close to an hour of play time from death/dying. Strongly disagree with the statement that death in DragonRealms is too hard already.
Also I really don't like the mischaracterization that those who support item loss/risk are just griefers who offer nothing to the game. These are the same players who passionately advocate on these forums for PVP Open profiles, not because they want to randomly kill people, but because they have this ideal of a fully immersive experience in a fantasy setting, with all the dangers/risks that go along with it. Way closer to tabletop gaming than the graphics-based, arcade-style MMOs out there.
By this logic, with the evolution of the PVP profile system and all the changes to PVP consent over the years, one could say that soon everyone will be PVP Open and GMs won't waste time anymore on PVP consults. Or because of how much easier/less of a grind learning skills has become, maybe they should just do away with it entirely- eliminating much of the hated AFK scripting.
Deaths: 313 Departs: 229
Never been graverobbed, never run out of favors even near to the point where I could be. Never lost anything even close to an hour of play time from death/dying. Strongly disagree with the statement that death in DragonRealms is too hard already.
Also I really don't like the mischaracterization that those who support item loss/risk are just griefers who offer nothing to the game. These are the same players who passionately advocate on these forums for PVP Open profiles, not because they want to randomly kill people, but because they have this ideal of a fully immersive experience in a fantasy setting, with all the dangers/risks that go along with it. Way closer to tabletop gaming than the graphics-based, arcade-style MMOs out there.
TEHNECRO
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 03:46 PM CST
>>Others don't. More don't than do. It is called counting. It isn't just an opinion.
People that are upset are going to voice complaints. People that are happy and complacent with the status quo are going to stay silent. But seek confirmation bias however you like to suit your purposes. No one reading with any modicum of intelligence is going to take this chum as fact, no matter how much you wish it to be true. It's speculation. If you don't understand why it's speculation, then this conversation isn't going anywhere.
>>And the ways the system doesn't always work are VAST.
Crashes, disconnects, and user error. Seems pretty minimal. Less factors than there are numbered means to mitigate the concern.
>>duh? (I will also take this to mean you acknowledge that there are a lot of complaints about this. Thanks!)
It means that I acknowledge that people that disagree will always be vocal. You're purposefully obtuse to suit your arguments. It's like digesting content from any leaning-wing media. You place more thought into your presentation than the substance.
>>And the game is moving away from them because more people don't enjoy them. I can't even imagine the GMs like hearing about it and they have the records to look it up. If any are reading this.. don't suppose you can do a search of how many times people have requested help in regards to item loss or graverobbing?? Just think about the things they could be doing instead of dealing with that?
The people you purport to represent by the droves don't enjoy them. I am not one of those people, and most of the people I know are not those people. By your same logic, all people should be PvP open because then no one would be able to report and detract from GM time. The profile system was a natural evolution towards this direction.
>>Seeing as the game has changed dramatically over the past 20 years away from what you claim to enjoy... you have proven my point for me. You are still here playing and have 4 accounts. If all the other changes didn't make you quit, I seriously doubt that this one will be the final straw. Oh noes! I can't lose items if I make a mistake! THE HORRRRRROR!!!!!! GG!!! Even claiming that is so beyond dramatic it is just silly.
I find your tone insulting. I feel this way. Many people feel this way. Either accept it at face value, or continue arbitrarily focusing on my style of posting and deriding my feelings, then providing misleading "facts" to support your view. It's helping you win the argument splendidly.
>>You mean.. the difference would be that more and more people could interact because they want to? and they could be positive interactions that maybe bring the society together instead of drive wedges? You could even set up RP between people to create these situations... that would then be RP'd out (with the big difference being that they would be consensual to begin with). And less resources on spell slots? I seriously doubt any paladin is going to be that bummed over a spell slot freeing up (we already have at least one commenting on that in this thread, so I won't bother to speak for them..) and maybe instead of spells that have incredibly niche roles, they could get better spells? But meh, that is another topic.
It's designed based on a table top game that's supposed to spur social interaction. Making death less meaningful means making characters more independent which means characters are less social and more inclined to afk script the day away (which someone else has already pointed to as well). "They could get better spells." This has no substance. You're not going to make believe anyone into thinking the will get wonderful things in return if they give up what they currently have, and it's silly to assume anyone would be amenable to an empty promise suggestion in exchange for a mechanic that they genuinely care about. "GIVE THIS UP NOW, WILL GIVE YOU BETTER THINGS LATER." Show me the money, Jerry.
>>This is where I think it is getting pointless to respond. You miss a guild having the ability to completely and permanently destroy your items? It makes me question if you are a masochist or just trolling.
Yes, yes I do. The fact that you don't understand and prefer ad hominem attacks for character assassination rather than accepting my own feelings on the matter show how starkly different our views are on this. Masochist, perhaps. Trolling, no. I'm very serious in how I feel about risk and loss in DR, and quite insistent that it stay. This conversation has only served to galvanize my views and show me that I need to get what I hope is the silent majority to start posting instead of wasting my time debating.
>>None of the games you mentioned even come close. They have elements of DR's consequences, but they don't have all of them, nor do you invest anywhere near as much time into getting the items as you do in DR.
Any tabletop RPG that has permanent death?
>>And time says you are on the wrong side of this. The game has consistently moved away from the harsh game you desire.
The needle has been ticking to the right towards coddling players for a long time, and I've been silent about it, absolutely. Perhaps I should have said something sooner.
I'd say the end result determines who is on the wrong side.
People that are upset are going to voice complaints. People that are happy and complacent with the status quo are going to stay silent. But seek confirmation bias however you like to suit your purposes. No one reading with any modicum of intelligence is going to take this chum as fact, no matter how much you wish it to be true. It's speculation. If you don't understand why it's speculation, then this conversation isn't going anywhere.
>>And the ways the system doesn't always work are VAST.
Crashes, disconnects, and user error. Seems pretty minimal. Less factors than there are numbered means to mitigate the concern.
>>duh? (I will also take this to mean you acknowledge that there are a lot of complaints about this. Thanks!)
It means that I acknowledge that people that disagree will always be vocal. You're purposefully obtuse to suit your arguments. It's like digesting content from any leaning-wing media. You place more thought into your presentation than the substance.
>>And the game is moving away from them because more people don't enjoy them. I can't even imagine the GMs like hearing about it and they have the records to look it up. If any are reading this.. don't suppose you can do a search of how many times people have requested help in regards to item loss or graverobbing?? Just think about the things they could be doing instead of dealing with that?
The people you purport to represent by the droves don't enjoy them. I am not one of those people, and most of the people I know are not those people. By your same logic, all people should be PvP open because then no one would be able to report and detract from GM time. The profile system was a natural evolution towards this direction.
>>Seeing as the game has changed dramatically over the past 20 years away from what you claim to enjoy... you have proven my point for me. You are still here playing and have 4 accounts. If all the other changes didn't make you quit, I seriously doubt that this one will be the final straw. Oh noes! I can't lose items if I make a mistake! THE HORRRRRROR!!!!!! GG!!! Even claiming that is so beyond dramatic it is just silly.
I find your tone insulting. I feel this way. Many people feel this way. Either accept it at face value, or continue arbitrarily focusing on my style of posting and deriding my feelings, then providing misleading "facts" to support your view. It's helping you win the argument splendidly.
>>You mean.. the difference would be that more and more people could interact because they want to? and they could be positive interactions that maybe bring the society together instead of drive wedges? You could even set up RP between people to create these situations... that would then be RP'd out (with the big difference being that they would be consensual to begin with). And less resources on spell slots? I seriously doubt any paladin is going to be that bummed over a spell slot freeing up (we already have at least one commenting on that in this thread, so I won't bother to speak for them..) and maybe instead of spells that have incredibly niche roles, they could get better spells? But meh, that is another topic.
It's designed based on a table top game that's supposed to spur social interaction. Making death less meaningful means making characters more independent which means characters are less social and more inclined to afk script the day away (which someone else has already pointed to as well). "They could get better spells." This has no substance. You're not going to make believe anyone into thinking the will get wonderful things in return if they give up what they currently have, and it's silly to assume anyone would be amenable to an empty promise suggestion in exchange for a mechanic that they genuinely care about. "GIVE THIS UP NOW, WILL GIVE YOU BETTER THINGS LATER." Show me the money, Jerry.
>>This is where I think it is getting pointless to respond. You miss a guild having the ability to completely and permanently destroy your items? It makes me question if you are a masochist or just trolling.
Yes, yes I do. The fact that you don't understand and prefer ad hominem attacks for character assassination rather than accepting my own feelings on the matter show how starkly different our views are on this. Masochist, perhaps. Trolling, no. I'm very serious in how I feel about risk and loss in DR, and quite insistent that it stay. This conversation has only served to galvanize my views and show me that I need to get what I hope is the silent majority to start posting instead of wasting my time debating.
>>None of the games you mentioned even come close. They have elements of DR's consequences, but they don't have all of them, nor do you invest anywhere near as much time into getting the items as you do in DR.
Any tabletop RPG that has permanent death?
>>And time says you are on the wrong side of this. The game has consistently moved away from the harsh game you desire.
The needle has been ticking to the right towards coddling players for a long time, and I've been silent about it, absolutely. Perhaps I should have said something sooner.
I'd say the end result determines who is on the wrong side.
JTERKOWITZ
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 04:06 PM CST
I've played on and off for a long time, and the grave robbing mechanics have become harsher and harsher (for the grave robber) over that time.
There is a reasonable desire on the behalf of the robbee to not want to be robbed. It sucks to die, and to lose your text stuff. On the other hand, the reality is that most of the risk from death is already gone from the game. You can't walk anymore. It is much harder to grave rob someone than it used to be due to depart options, etc.
I'm not someone who regularly takes advantage of grave rob mechanics -- I don't think I've grave robbed anything in the last 6-7 years, certainly. I also haven't been grave robbed in that time. That said, I am a fan of risk staying in DR and would be unhappy if this were changed in a way to coddle players and remove risk from the game that already has very limited risk.
I don't grave rob, but I think that the option should be there for people who want to play that way. Most things in DR, frankly, can be easily replaced with more time on the part of the player. Giving player interaction more potential consequences seems very desirable to me -- there's already a tendency towards people just scripting on their own and only interacting briefly.
If you don't want to risk losing your items, just use DEPART ITEM. It doesn't seem hard to me, that's even why the option exists in the first place. And then all you have to do is make sure that your character has sufficient favors. It's similar to how if you don't want PvP to happen to you, you can set your profile to closed and then not RP in an aggressive manner towards others. There are plenty of checks in place to allow people who aren't interested in being grave robbed to be protected.
There is a reasonable desire on the behalf of the robbee to not want to be robbed. It sucks to die, and to lose your text stuff. On the other hand, the reality is that most of the risk from death is already gone from the game. You can't walk anymore. It is much harder to grave rob someone than it used to be due to depart options, etc.
I'm not someone who regularly takes advantage of grave rob mechanics -- I don't think I've grave robbed anything in the last 6-7 years, certainly. I also haven't been grave robbed in that time. That said, I am a fan of risk staying in DR and would be unhappy if this were changed in a way to coddle players and remove risk from the game that already has very limited risk.
I don't grave rob, but I think that the option should be there for people who want to play that way. Most things in DR, frankly, can be easily replaced with more time on the part of the player. Giving player interaction more potential consequences seems very desirable to me -- there's already a tendency towards people just scripting on their own and only interacting briefly.
If you don't want to risk losing your items, just use DEPART ITEM. It doesn't seem hard to me, that's even why the option exists in the first place. And then all you have to do is make sure that your character has sufficient favors. It's similar to how if you don't want PvP to happen to you, you can set your profile to closed and then not RP in an aggressive manner towards others. There are plenty of checks in place to allow people who aren't interested in being grave robbed to be protected.
IPECAC
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 04:25 PM CST
I don't think there's a wrong or right side to any of this, just different opinions.
Personally speaking though, I don't think that every player who would ask for grave mechanics to remain in place should be labeled as a griefer.
Anybody who knows me and my play style can tell you that while I enjoy PvP, I don't chainkill, I don't bait, and I have no intentions of graverobbing unless I'm doing it to somebody that already did it to me. That being said, I definitely prefer the thrill of getting into situations over my head and trying to find my way back out. I love the excitement of trying to plan my escape routes, load up on favors, and trying to get a few licks in where I can.
...and I love all of that even more when all my plans collapse and I end up dead. I've yet to find another game that can provide anything near the same level of exhilaration.
If the original scenario came about because of a typo, that's definitely unfortunate. I see no issues with a DEPART confirmation or some sort of default toggle, but any of the talk pertaining to the removal of grave mechanics entirely seems excessive. I understand that people have nice things they don't want to lose. I have nice things I don't want to lose. But the possibility that I could lose them is much of the allure of the game for me.
>befriend clear all
You are now friendless.
Personally speaking though, I don't think that every player who would ask for grave mechanics to remain in place should be labeled as a griefer.
Anybody who knows me and my play style can tell you that while I enjoy PvP, I don't chainkill, I don't bait, and I have no intentions of graverobbing unless I'm doing it to somebody that already did it to me. That being said, I definitely prefer the thrill of getting into situations over my head and trying to find my way back out. I love the excitement of trying to plan my escape routes, load up on favors, and trying to get a few licks in where I can.
...and I love all of that even more when all my plans collapse and I end up dead. I've yet to find another game that can provide anything near the same level of exhilaration.
If the original scenario came about because of a typo, that's definitely unfortunate. I see no issues with a DEPART confirmation or some sort of default toggle, but any of the talk pertaining to the removal of grave mechanics entirely seems excessive. I understand that people have nice things they don't want to lose. I have nice things I don't want to lose. But the possibility that I could lose them is much of the allure of the game for me.
>befriend clear all
You are now friendless.
SHAWN255
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 04:39 PM CST
>>Crashes, disconnects, and user error.
Add in lack of systems or systems that dont always work correctly.
>>i agree
Good. You agree that you are the vocal minority.
>>pvp profiles
Pvp profiles were a move away from what you want. Nice try. They helped GMs more than anything with resolving referals.
>>I find your tone insulting.
And? I find your arguments and ideas flawed.
The 'facts' arent misleading. You just don't like them.
Also, talk about speculation. You claim that removing graverobbing would make people afk script more... talk about wild assertions.
I don't really think you understand balance or risk vs reward.
Even table top gaming has moved away from what you want. Pathfinder and D&D both added unconcious states to the game to avoid death. AD&D you were just dead if you hit 0. So that doesnt even work for you. And table top gaming doesnt even come close to the time investment of DR.
>>I'd say the end result determines who is on the wrong side.
That would clearly be you since the game has moved completely away from what you claim to enjoy.
Add in lack of systems or systems that dont always work correctly.
>>i agree
Good. You agree that you are the vocal minority.
>>pvp profiles
Pvp profiles were a move away from what you want. Nice try. They helped GMs more than anything with resolving referals.
>>I find your tone insulting.
And? I find your arguments and ideas flawed.
The 'facts' arent misleading. You just don't like them.
Also, talk about speculation. You claim that removing graverobbing would make people afk script more... talk about wild assertions.
I don't really think you understand balance or risk vs reward.
Even table top gaming has moved away from what you want. Pathfinder and D&D both added unconcious states to the game to avoid death. AD&D you were just dead if you hit 0. So that doesnt even work for you. And table top gaming doesnt even come close to the time investment of DR.
>>I'd say the end result determines who is on the wrong side.
That would clearly be you since the game has moved completely away from what you claim to enjoy.
THAYET
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 04:44 PM CST
You know, all else about game balance and basic game design aside, I frankly don't think DragonRealms presently possesses a community capable of maturely handling having the ability to graverob other players, based purely on how the majority of people handle much simpler conflicts.
But that's just my opinion. vOv
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
But that's just my opinion. vOv
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
DRFREAK3
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 04:59 PM CST
Departing really needs to have confirmations associated with it. And this should be at the top of the list of things to complete for 2016.
Since we are all getting older, I can say lots of players have eye conditions that cause typos. It sucks to typo important things like how you depart.
Add a depart confirmation and a default depart option and be done with this topic.
Since we are all getting older, I can say lots of players have eye conditions that cause typos. It sucks to typo important things like how you depart.
Add a depart confirmation and a default depart option and be done with this topic.
ACKERSONC1
TEHNECRO
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 05:35 PM CST
>>Good. You agree that you are the vocal minority.
No. I'm smart enough to not make assertions without the facts and then misquote someone for the sake of being "more right." I'd normally say something snide here, but I honestly just prefer to laugh. You do enough damage to yourself without me debasing myself.
>>Pvp profiles were a move away from what you want. Nice try. They helped GMs more than anything with resolving referals.
They were made to make grey areas less grey, and help delineate risk. See: locking people open, stealing flagging people as open, etc. I'd say it's migrating towards what I want. If I attacked a known thief before, I would get a warning. Now if I attack a known thief, they were locked open because their was risk involved in stealing. You won't twist this one to suit your purposes.
>>And? I find your arguments and ideas flawed.
And yet I present them genuinely and honestly without casting aspersions, implying character assassination, ad hominem attacks, childish misquotes, or misrepresenting "facts." You'll forgive me if your opinion of my ideas and arguments has very little impact.
>>The 'facts' arent misleading. You just don't like them.
I'll let you know when I read some fact. No matter how loudly you shout from the rooftops, your spurious claims are no more fact now than they were when you began posting in this thread. Truth and fact to you seem incessantly laced with confirmation bias and "what you believe." You've yet to present any data, any empirical evidence. "THIS TIME IN 1997 PEOPLE QUIT OVER ITEMS." "TONS OF PEOPLE ON THE BOARDS EVEN THOUGH THEY DON'T REPRESENT THE PLAYER POPULATION AND JUST THE PEOPLE BEING VOCAL." The veracity of your anecdotes makes me positively quiver.
>>Also, talk about speculation. You claim that removing graverobbing would make people afk script more... talk about wild assertions.
It's an inference on potential cause and effect, and was not represented as fact, like most of your claims. I'm glad you can identify speculation in my posts. Now reread your own.
>>I don't really think you understand balance or risk vs reward.
This just looks like filler to be insulting and put your own arguments and posts on a pedestal, honestly. Do you have some elaborate explanations of game theory or some profound analysis of the primordial lizard brain and its perception of reward to go along side this? I didn't think so, but please, by all means, continue to tell me about what I don't understand while chipping away at the credibility of your own argument when you provide insults instead of substance.
>>That would clearly be you since the game has moved completely away from what you claim to enjoy.
Not completely; reasonable accommodations have been made to account for your desire for handholding. I'm not willing to quietly placate your egocentric ilk anymore.
No. I'm smart enough to not make assertions without the facts and then misquote someone for the sake of being "more right." I'd normally say something snide here, but I honestly just prefer to laugh. You do enough damage to yourself without me debasing myself.
>>Pvp profiles were a move away from what you want. Nice try. They helped GMs more than anything with resolving referals.
They were made to make grey areas less grey, and help delineate risk. See: locking people open, stealing flagging people as open, etc. I'd say it's migrating towards what I want. If I attacked a known thief before, I would get a warning. Now if I attack a known thief, they were locked open because their was risk involved in stealing. You won't twist this one to suit your purposes.
>>And? I find your arguments and ideas flawed.
And yet I present them genuinely and honestly without casting aspersions, implying character assassination, ad hominem attacks, childish misquotes, or misrepresenting "facts." You'll forgive me if your opinion of my ideas and arguments has very little impact.
>>The 'facts' arent misleading. You just don't like them.
I'll let you know when I read some fact. No matter how loudly you shout from the rooftops, your spurious claims are no more fact now than they were when you began posting in this thread. Truth and fact to you seem incessantly laced with confirmation bias and "what you believe." You've yet to present any data, any empirical evidence. "THIS TIME IN 1997 PEOPLE QUIT OVER ITEMS." "TONS OF PEOPLE ON THE BOARDS EVEN THOUGH THEY DON'T REPRESENT THE PLAYER POPULATION AND JUST THE PEOPLE BEING VOCAL." The veracity of your anecdotes makes me positively quiver.
>>Also, talk about speculation. You claim that removing graverobbing would make people afk script more... talk about wild assertions.
It's an inference on potential cause and effect, and was not represented as fact, like most of your claims. I'm glad you can identify speculation in my posts. Now reread your own.
>>I don't really think you understand balance or risk vs reward.
This just looks like filler to be insulting and put your own arguments and posts on a pedestal, honestly. Do you have some elaborate explanations of game theory or some profound analysis of the primordial lizard brain and its perception of reward to go along side this? I didn't think so, but please, by all means, continue to tell me about what I don't understand while chipping away at the credibility of your own argument when you provide insults instead of substance.
>>That would clearly be you since the game has moved completely away from what you claim to enjoy.
Not completely; reasonable accommodations have been made to account for your desire for handholding. I'm not willing to quietly placate your egocentric ilk anymore.
THAYET
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 05:40 PM CST
If every time you departed a random item in your inventory was automatically destroyed as tribute to the immortal/demon that brought you back, how would you feel about that?
Just wondering how far this ~hardcore~ sentiment goes.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Just wondering how far this ~hardcore~ sentiment goes.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
SHAWN255
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 06:28 PM CST
>>debasing myself
Your arguments do it for you.
You want it to be hardmode for hardmode sake
You claim you would quit over graverobbing being removed, yet dont believe the history of people quitting because they were graverobbed. Even though you can just browse the forums and find the proof you want.
You dont seem to realize that history is 100% against you. DR has moved continually away from harsh punishments for harsh punishment sake. As have most other games.
>>i will let you know when i have read some facts
You should start reading then.
>>blah blah blah
Im on my phone so i cant respond to all your blathering. Will get to the rest later. At least you stopped posting about other games... since i kept proving you wrong about them.
>>desire for handholding
It isnt handholding to not want to still use dialup 20 years later.
>>egocentric ilk and other examples
Lol. For a guy that spends a lot of time crying about the way someone responds, you sure do a lot of what you complain about.
Your arguments do it for you.
You want it to be hardmode for hardmode sake
You claim you would quit over graverobbing being removed, yet dont believe the history of people quitting because they were graverobbed. Even though you can just browse the forums and find the proof you want.
You dont seem to realize that history is 100% against you. DR has moved continually away from harsh punishments for harsh punishment sake. As have most other games.
>>i will let you know when i have read some facts
You should start reading then.
>>blah blah blah
Im on my phone so i cant respond to all your blathering. Will get to the rest later. At least you stopped posting about other games... since i kept proving you wrong about them.
>>desire for handholding
It isnt handholding to not want to still use dialup 20 years later.
>>egocentric ilk and other examples
Lol. For a guy that spends a lot of time crying about the way someone responds, you sure do a lot of what you complain about.
TEHNECRO
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 06:49 PM CST
>>Lol. For a guy that spends a lot of time crying about the way someone responds, you sure do a lot of what you complain about.
I copped to the possibility that my opinion was not the majority from the onset, and my desire to meet in the middle, and my perception that the issue of item risk has already had substantial compromise. I prefer realism in this text based game. I feel like I've given a lot of way in the last 20 years, in the name of being fair to people who deserve in character means to mitigate loss. I am not alone in feeling this way.
This game design philosophy resonates with a large enough portion of the player base that the concern should not be cast aside easily by any true arbiter, let alone by someone as obviously incapable of being objective or empathetic as yourself.
Your position is you don't care what I and other similarly minded players may think about this, it's old, it needs to be easier, people leave games because of risk, dead voters win elections (archaic posts), all games are getting easier we're a coddling culture, I'm a masochist, and I'm dumb if you think it should be as hard as it was at its onset. I got it. I respectfully disagree, but I've always been in it more for the RP.
I think I like my presentation more, but I guess I am that narcissist you wish to turn the mirror of evisceration upon after all. We're twins, you might say.
I've said all I need to say.
I copped to the possibility that my opinion was not the majority from the onset, and my desire to meet in the middle, and my perception that the issue of item risk has already had substantial compromise. I prefer realism in this text based game. I feel like I've given a lot of way in the last 20 years, in the name of being fair to people who deserve in character means to mitigate loss. I am not alone in feeling this way.
This game design philosophy resonates with a large enough portion of the player base that the concern should not be cast aside easily by any true arbiter, let alone by someone as obviously incapable of being objective or empathetic as yourself.
Your position is you don't care what I and other similarly minded players may think about this, it's old, it needs to be easier, people leave games because of risk, dead voters win elections (archaic posts), all games are getting easier we're a coddling culture, I'm a masochist, and I'm dumb if you think it should be as hard as it was at its onset. I got it. I respectfully disagree, but I've always been in it more for the RP.
I think I like my presentation more, but I guess I am that narcissist you wish to turn the mirror of evisceration upon after all. We're twins, you might say.
I've said all I need to say.
RCHIGHT
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 07:10 PM CST
>vocal minority
Vocal minority = squeaky wheel gets the grease
Vocal minority <> the majority of players but the majority of players that complain on the boards. You realize there are many of us that just read this stuff and shake our heads without replying. Because this has gone on so long I'm gonna reply.
You signed up and paid for DR. You knew the rules and risks to your character. You really and truly are to blame for any situation you find your self in. If you weren't then you could assist. Ignorance of the "law" is no excuse.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Vocal minority = squeaky wheel gets the grease
Vocal minority <> the majority of players but the majority of players that complain on the boards. You realize there are many of us that just read this stuff and shake our heads without replying. Because this has gone on so long I'm gonna reply.
You signed up and paid for DR. You knew the rules and risks to your character. You really and truly are to blame for any situation you find your self in. If you weren't then you could assist. Ignorance of the "law" is no excuse.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
SHAWN255
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 07:24 PM CST
>>You signed up and paid for DR. You knew the rules and risks to your character. You really and truly are to blame for any situation you find your self in. If you weren't then you could assist. Ignorance of the "law" is no excuse.
This is so random and not even slightly relevant.
This is so random and not even slightly relevant.
RCHIGHT
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 07:34 PM CST
>This is so random and not even slightly relevant.
Why? Because you didn't sign up and pay for the game based on the rules that were in effect when you signed up and played? Welcome to the real world. I signed up to play in 1996 and the rules are very different now than then. However, I have a choice every month to stop playing based on the current rules I'm playing under. I want a difficult game where I'm not some "Link" that never loses but can always respawn Where is my voice? The squeaky wheals are always saying make it easier for me. Make it so I don't lose stuff I spent 10 years acquiring. What about those of us that LOVE this game because it's just stuff?
I have spent years collecting Dwarven items. I almost guarantee you I have the highest number of rare Dwarven items in the realm. If I lost any of them, I'd be mad, caustic, even berserker angry (I can't even type the words)...but... I would then think, "It's a game where I signed up for the chance that my stuff would be lost, no matter all the mechanics built in to make it not so." So, freakin, what? I'll go forth and do it again.
Relevant? This whole thread started about people losing "stuff". It's stuff. Nothing more. Doesn't make you a better person in or out of game. Doesn't make you more likable, special, smart, lovable, or the opposite for that matter. I've lost tons of stuff over the years. Some of it unique and very special but so what? I play DR because I like how I'm not guaranteed much of anything.
Where's my voice and others that think like me in the squeaky "me" thread?
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Why? Because you didn't sign up and pay for the game based on the rules that were in effect when you signed up and played? Welcome to the real world. I signed up to play in 1996 and the rules are very different now than then. However, I have a choice every month to stop playing based on the current rules I'm playing under. I want a difficult game where I'm not some "Link" that never loses but can always respawn Where is my voice? The squeaky wheals are always saying make it easier for me. Make it so I don't lose stuff I spent 10 years acquiring. What about those of us that LOVE this game because it's just stuff?
I have spent years collecting Dwarven items. I almost guarantee you I have the highest number of rare Dwarven items in the realm. If I lost any of them, I'd be mad, caustic, even berserker angry (I can't even type the words)...but... I would then think, "It's a game where I signed up for the chance that my stuff would be lost, no matter all the mechanics built in to make it not so." So, freakin, what? I'll go forth and do it again.
Relevant? This whole thread started about people losing "stuff". It's stuff. Nothing more. Doesn't make you a better person in or out of game. Doesn't make you more likable, special, smart, lovable, or the opposite for that matter. I've lost tons of stuff over the years. Some of it unique and very special but so what? I play DR because I like how I'm not guaranteed much of anything.
Where's my voice and others that think like me in the squeaky "me" thread?
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
SHADOWCHIEF2
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 07:44 PM CST
You don't cry enough Rhadyn. Cry more and maybe you will get what you want. That is, in most cases, the way things work.
As I stated before, there are a lot of folks that like the risk involved in the game. I would rather have it swing in the other direction its currently been going myself and be harsher. I'm not sure why its been stated that the overwhelming majority want things easier, hell, at the moment it seems like there's a bit of folks on both sides of the fence. Also I'd be willing to wager that the actual majority probably just wouldn't care less either way. Saying that, like I stated before, people that are vehemently against it probably have caused this state of being currently to be the case due to constantly complaining and sucking up valuable GM development time.
As I stated before, there are a lot of folks that like the risk involved in the game. I would rather have it swing in the other direction its currently been going myself and be harsher. I'm not sure why its been stated that the overwhelming majority want things easier, hell, at the moment it seems like there's a bit of folks on both sides of the fence. Also I'd be willing to wager that the actual majority probably just wouldn't care less either way. Saying that, like I stated before, people that are vehemently against it probably have caused this state of being currently to be the case due to constantly complaining and sucking up valuable GM development time.
RCHIGHT
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 07:48 PM CST
>>that are vehemently against it probably have caused this state of being currently to be the case
And I say this is incorrect. I would posit that the majority of people against it are people that like to play a unique game that balances risk vs. reward. The current system does that IMO. There are so many ways around leaving a grave that when I came back in 3.0 I was amazed. DEPART ITEMS. Woo hoo! Don't change it. I'm drunk, stupid or have too few orbs and DEPART, run, Forrest, run!
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
And I say this is incorrect. I would posit that the majority of people against it are people that like to play a unique game that balances risk vs. reward. The current system does that IMO. There are so many ways around leaving a grave that when I came back in 3.0 I was amazed. DEPART ITEMS. Woo hoo! Don't change it. I'm drunk, stupid or have too few orbs and DEPART, run, Forrest, run!
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
SHAWN255
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 07:50 PM CST
There is no realism
If it was real and someone took my item i could go kill him and take it back off his corpse. I could wait for him to sleep and steal it back. I could threaten his mom until he returned it. He couldn't log from the game to avoid confrontation. Etc etc etc etc.
You pretend to want realism when in reality it is a video game with a bunch of jury rigged systems that half the time dont work or do everything they should. Graverobbing has always been borked. If you want to keep it how about you provide some push to improve it.
DR is a game. Its primary purpose should be fun. And not at the expense of other characters/players. If graverobbing had ever been a fully fleshed out system with fully developed checks and balances to make sure everyonr enjoyed it, you might have a point. But it isnt. It never has been. It is a horrible system that people abuse. All the things you claim are good about it could still happen.. yet they would be between consenting players working together to build RP and enjoy their interaction. Your way, and the current system, only benefits griefers.
And the GMs have already pushed away from your mentality. 20 years of changes proves it.
>>Your position is you don't care what I and other similarly minded players may think about this, it's old, it needs to be easier, people leave games because of risk, dead voters win elections (archaic posts), all games are getting easier we're a coddling culture, I'm a masochist, and I'm dumb if you think it should be as hard as it was at its onset. I got it. I respectfully disagree, but I've always been in it more for the RP.
Never said it needs to be easier. Just that the risk vs reward and the level of consequences should be evaluated and adjusted.
You have just decided that losing items is your line in the sand for whatever reason. I find that there are potentially better ways to penalize characters and players.
I also dont think you are dumb. But i do think you have turned this into some nostalgia-based ideal of DR that doesnt exist.
And if you are really in it for the RP.. Then removing graverobbing and RPing out those interactions with consenting actors would only improve your experience. Forcing it upon others doesn't make it better.
If it was real and someone took my item i could go kill him and take it back off his corpse. I could wait for him to sleep and steal it back. I could threaten his mom until he returned it. He couldn't log from the game to avoid confrontation. Etc etc etc etc.
You pretend to want realism when in reality it is a video game with a bunch of jury rigged systems that half the time dont work or do everything they should. Graverobbing has always been borked. If you want to keep it how about you provide some push to improve it.
DR is a game. Its primary purpose should be fun. And not at the expense of other characters/players. If graverobbing had ever been a fully fleshed out system with fully developed checks and balances to make sure everyonr enjoyed it, you might have a point. But it isnt. It never has been. It is a horrible system that people abuse. All the things you claim are good about it could still happen.. yet they would be between consenting players working together to build RP and enjoy their interaction. Your way, and the current system, only benefits griefers.
And the GMs have already pushed away from your mentality. 20 years of changes proves it.
>>Your position is you don't care what I and other similarly minded players may think about this, it's old, it needs to be easier, people leave games because of risk, dead voters win elections (archaic posts), all games are getting easier we're a coddling culture, I'm a masochist, and I'm dumb if you think it should be as hard as it was at its onset. I got it. I respectfully disagree, but I've always been in it more for the RP.
Never said it needs to be easier. Just that the risk vs reward and the level of consequences should be evaluated and adjusted.
You have just decided that losing items is your line in the sand for whatever reason. I find that there are potentially better ways to penalize characters and players.
I also dont think you are dumb. But i do think you have turned this into some nostalgia-based ideal of DR that doesnt exist.
And if you are really in it for the RP.. Then removing graverobbing and RPing out those interactions with consenting actors would only improve your experience. Forcing it upon others doesn't make it better.
THAYET
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 07:51 PM CST
It would be neat if death involved unavoidable rank loss and experience gain being shut off for a period of time after revival IMO.
Those are the kinds of teeth death should have.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Those are the kinds of teeth death should have.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
SHAWN255
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 08:01 PM CST
It is random because the game has changed. What you signed up to play even 3 years ago is vastly different than the game is now. Your point has no relevance because it isnt even slightly connected to this conversation.
It is like you are saying things shouldnt change because you agreed to play with them as they are. So that is all you get.
It is an mmo (ish) so that isnt how things work. Change is a natural part of a game like DR.
The trend with change has been away from harsh arbitrary punishments.. and the current conversation is about that. It isnt a complaint about dealing with the current rules. It is about how it could be improved.
You are having your own unrelated tangent.
It is like you are saying things shouldnt change because you agreed to play with them as they are. So that is all you get.
It is an mmo (ish) so that isnt how things work. Change is a natural part of a game like DR.
The trend with change has been away from harsh arbitrary punishments.. and the current conversation is about that. It isnt a complaint about dealing with the current rules. It is about how it could be improved.
You are having your own unrelated tangent.
SHADOWCHIEF2
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 08:04 PM CST
<It would be neat if death involved unavoidable rank loss and experience gain being shut off for a period of time after revival IMO.
Sure, I wouldn't be against that. But one issue with that idea is the current state of multi player PVP such as team tournament battles. A single 1 on 1 challenge isn't a problem since your left easily able to get yourself healed a lot of the times. Sometimes that's not the case, but in few cases. I'm not sure why there's isn't a mechanic at the beginning of an arena match that basically allows the tournament director to issue a challenge to all participants that either goes until your knocked out, or until the tournament match is over, in which case the director could turn it off.
I don't mind things being harder but you DONT MESS WITH MY PVP!
Sure, I wouldn't be against that. But one issue with that idea is the current state of multi player PVP such as team tournament battles. A single 1 on 1 challenge isn't a problem since your left easily able to get yourself healed a lot of the times. Sometimes that's not the case, but in few cases. I'm not sure why there's isn't a mechanic at the beginning of an arena match that basically allows the tournament director to issue a challenge to all participants that either goes until your knocked out, or until the tournament match is over, in which case the director could turn it off.
I don't mind things being harder but you DONT MESS WITH MY PVP!
BADGOPHER
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 08:57 PM CST
Question:
Why does death 'need teeth'? In a standard MMO the death penalties are A) Transported out of the combat/quest zone, B) Damage to gear, C) Variable penalty to stats depending on revival method.
In a standard video game, death is 'reload last save', ergo there is no death.
DR more closely follows one of these models than the other. Death is already frustrating enough in DR because you're out of action for 10-30 minutes, depending on rezz, death sting, etc. Couple that with item damage (which should probably be higher) and loss of ranks, field exp, and future field exp (more favors), DR seems like it already has more 'teeth' than any other game.
Can someone present a compelling reason for death to suck more?
Especially since I'm assured by everyone that combat is 'completely risk free' now.
Why does death 'need teeth'? In a standard MMO the death penalties are A) Transported out of the combat/quest zone, B) Damage to gear, C) Variable penalty to stats depending on revival method.
In a standard video game, death is 'reload last save', ergo there is no death.
DR more closely follows one of these models than the other. Death is already frustrating enough in DR because you're out of action for 10-30 minutes, depending on rezz, death sting, etc. Couple that with item damage (which should probably be higher) and loss of ranks, field exp, and future field exp (more favors), DR seems like it already has more 'teeth' than any other game.
Can someone present a compelling reason for death to suck more?
Especially since I'm assured by everyone that combat is 'completely risk free' now.
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 09:19 PM CST
>Can someone present a compelling reason for death to suck more?
If death isn't a serious penalty, people won't feel properly disrespected when somebody kills them?
Your search-fu is pig dung!
If death isn't a serious penalty, people won't feel properly disrespected when somebody kills them?
Your search-fu is pig dung!
THAYET
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 09:25 PM CST
Death is more avoidable than ever and there is at least lip-service granted to this being a roleplaying game where death should be treated like more than a minor inconvenience by people who suffer from it.
In the past when I've brought up how it would be nice if people would at least roleplay that death is a serious thing, they point out that death has no real consequences for a character so why should they. Walking is off the table, so if people need other mechanical drawbacks to treat it seriously ICly, I'm all for seeing them implemented.
tl;dr MY IMMERSION
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
In the past when I've brought up how it would be nice if people would at least roleplay that death is a serious thing, they point out that death has no real consequences for a character so why should they. Walking is off the table, so if people need other mechanical drawbacks to treat it seriously ICly, I'm all for seeing them implemented.
tl;dr MY IMMERSION
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
SHAWN255
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 09:51 PM CST
>>Why does death 'need teeth'?
I think all games need consequences for playing sub-optimally. Dying fits that.
I am not against consequences. I just think they should fit the crime. and I agree with you that compared to pretty much any other game out there, especially MMOs, that DR's penalties are completely off the charts.
As far as IC... frankly Death doesn't matter. From an IC standpoint it doesn't matter. You are either favored by the gods and they don't want you dead, or you are a necro and do your own thing while flipping off the gods. Either way, from an IC standpoint... death really shouldn't matter. It shouldn't be this easy fun fun joy joy experience, but it also shouldn't ruin the rest of the game experience either.
I think all games need consequences for playing sub-optimally. Dying fits that.
I am not against consequences. I just think they should fit the crime. and I agree with you that compared to pretty much any other game out there, especially MMOs, that DR's penalties are completely off the charts.
As far as IC... frankly Death doesn't matter. From an IC standpoint it doesn't matter. You are either favored by the gods and they don't want you dead, or you are a necro and do your own thing while flipping off the gods. Either way, from an IC standpoint... death really shouldn't matter. It shouldn't be this easy fun fun joy joy experience, but it also shouldn't ruin the rest of the game experience either.
DR-ANNWYL
Re: War and grave robbers :Thread Over:
01/12/2016 10:24 PM CST
This one's done.
Further posts in this thread will result in forum time outs.
Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor
If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.
