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+1 for removal of grave robbing, not the longest sub around, but as a smaller player than most here, its really dumb watching some of the realms super heroes running around with some store boughts instead of the nice weapons they own because of the stupidity that goes on. Also, I thoroughly enjoy pvp games, but there is a reason the majority of even the hardcore ones have done away with corpse loot.
FATBOY30269
TOTLIIO
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 03:29 PM CST
I still havent seen a single thing posted beyond the potential for a typo that hasnt shown that DEPART ITEMS fixes every single one of your grave-robbing issues. As far as storebought weapons thats just nonsense. People bonding potion their special weapons and use them all the time even in the craziest of invasions.
I still think this thread is going on way longer than it needs to. if depart either defaulted to depart items, or gave a user a warning for a confirm message that they were going to leave a grave unless they typed "depart items".. whats the issue? have favors and you can never ever be graverobbed.
I still think this thread is going on way longer than it needs to. if depart either defaulted to depart items, or gave a user a warning for a confirm message that they were going to leave a grave unless they typed "depart items".. whats the issue? have favors and you can never ever be graverobbed.
SHAWN255
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 03:39 PM CST
>>death should have teeth
So again... how does it not?
If you lose 30+ minutes of experience gain.. and have to on average spend 20 minutes getting ressed.. how is that not 'teeth'?
That is essentially an hour of gameplay gone. If the player is a casual gamer... that is a huge chunk, if not the majority, of their game time. That is more than enough.
And as for the other guy... what does graverobbing or item loss in general add to the game?? That should be the key. Not.. oh you can prevent it... that isnt the point. What does it add? How does it make the game better? Who interacts with that system and walks away happy? The negative answers to all those questions are why graverobbing/item loss due to death should just be removed.
So again... how does it not?
If you lose 30+ minutes of experience gain.. and have to on average spend 20 minutes getting ressed.. how is that not 'teeth'?
That is essentially an hour of gameplay gone. If the player is a casual gamer... that is a huge chunk, if not the majority, of their game time. That is more than enough.
And as for the other guy... what does graverobbing or item loss in general add to the game?? That should be the key. Not.. oh you can prevent it... that isnt the point. What does it add? How does it make the game better? Who interacts with that system and walks away happy? The negative answers to all those questions are why graverobbing/item loss due to death should just be removed.
JUSTAGNOME2
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 03:39 PM CST
These comparisons are logical fallacies. It's not, nor was ever meant, to be like other games. It pre-dates modern MMOs by several years.
You don't play Dark Souls and decry the injustice of its difficulty.
Dragonrealms was always meant to be a more complex game with real consequences. Death's consequences have gotten the nerfbat so many times now that it's ridiculous.
1) Experience loss is so minimal. You lose what, 10% of a rank, 20%, at worst if you autodepart? Anywhere under 600 ranks, that's what, a half hour of time lost in the worst case? In 1996, not getting mems done was a "might as well reroll" rank loss scenario.
2) Protecting your items -- Glyph ward, bonding potions for weapons, resurrection, waiting for a friend to watch your grave. It's a social game that's meant to spur social interaction with other guilds. Most of your mitigating measures require this.
Would you have all these guild abilities, and all the money that has been spent on these potions, become worthless to coddle a playerbase that literally has 6 (?) different tools to mitigate any unfortunate circumstances?
3) The Starry Road -- Do I need to say anymore?
4) Cleric self rezz. Necro self rezz. Paladin self ward. 3 guilds that should have no issues after a certain point.
5) Depart Items and Depart Full - There are two super super super easy means of protecting your items.
The only thing I think I would be amenable to personally would be a "confirm" message when you go to type depart items or depart full. Everyone lately seems to have an issue about how they typo depart. "Are you sure you want to depart without your items? Reconfirm your choice by typing it again."
I do not think this game has ever had the intent to coddle players or for things to be easy. That being said, the consequences are the lowest they literally have ever been. What's so hard here?
- Tyrun, player of
You don't play Dark Souls and decry the injustice of its difficulty.
Dragonrealms was always meant to be a more complex game with real consequences. Death's consequences have gotten the nerfbat so many times now that it's ridiculous.
1) Experience loss is so minimal. You lose what, 10% of a rank, 20%, at worst if you autodepart? Anywhere under 600 ranks, that's what, a half hour of time lost in the worst case? In 1996, not getting mems done was a "might as well reroll" rank loss scenario.
2) Protecting your items -- Glyph ward, bonding potions for weapons, resurrection, waiting for a friend to watch your grave. It's a social game that's meant to spur social interaction with other guilds. Most of your mitigating measures require this.
Would you have all these guild abilities, and all the money that has been spent on these potions, become worthless to coddle a playerbase that literally has 6 (?) different tools to mitigate any unfortunate circumstances?
3) The Starry Road -- Do I need to say anymore?
4) Cleric self rezz. Necro self rezz. Paladin self ward. 3 guilds that should have no issues after a certain point.
5) Depart Items and Depart Full - There are two super super super easy means of protecting your items.
The only thing I think I would be amenable to personally would be a "confirm" message when you go to type depart items or depart full. Everyone lately seems to have an issue about how they typo depart. "Are you sure you want to depart without your items? Reconfirm your choice by typing it again."
I do not think this game has ever had the intent to coddle players or for things to be easy. That being said, the consequences are the lowest they literally have ever been. What's so hard here?
- Tyrun, player of
TOTLIIO
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 03:42 PM CST
Yeah Tyrun pretty much hit the nail on the head for me.
TEHDARKGANDER
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 03:45 PM CST
<<
So again... how does it not?
If you lose 30+ minutes of experience gain.. and have to on average spend 20 minutes getting ressed.. how is that not 'teeth'?
That is essentially an hour of gameplay gone. If the player is a casual gamer... that is a huge chunk, if not the majority, of their game time. That is more than enough.
And as for the other guy... what does graverobbing or item loss in general add to the game?? That should be the key. Not.. oh you can prevent it... that isnt the point. What does it add? How does it make the game better? Who interacts with that system and walks away happy? The negative answers to all those questions are why graverobbing/item loss due to death should just be removed.
>>
Because typing DEPART ITEM as soon as you die mitigates all of it. You make the decision on how you want to spend your hour, not us.
So again... how does it not?
If you lose 30+ minutes of experience gain.. and have to on average spend 20 minutes getting ressed.. how is that not 'teeth'?
That is essentially an hour of gameplay gone. If the player is a casual gamer... that is a huge chunk, if not the majority, of their game time. That is more than enough.
And as for the other guy... what does graverobbing or item loss in general add to the game?? That should be the key. Not.. oh you can prevent it... that isnt the point. What does it add? How does it make the game better? Who interacts with that system and walks away happy? The negative answers to all those questions are why graverobbing/item loss due to death should just be removed.
>>
Because typing DEPART ITEM as soon as you die mitigates all of it. You make the decision on how you want to spend your hour, not us.
SHAWN255
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 04:01 PM CST
You go into dark souls knowing what you are getting. The game is set up in all ways to offer those consequences and it also isnt a game meant for most players.
Dragonrealms is not a hardmode game. It is just an old game. Dont confuse the two. Dragonrealms was the wow of its day.
There is a reason most games do not do well with rulesets from the 90s. A lot of the design goals have evolved. The very idea of 'coddling' players is a falacy. Making a system that doesnt punish for punishment sake is not coddling. It is risk vs reward. And there are better ways to do it than arbitrary loss of items.
You basically are complaining that kids these days dont have to walk through the snow 10 miles and up hill. Even though there is no point to making them do that.
Again. What is the gain to item loss or graverobbing? How does it improve the game? How does it improve the player experience of the game? How does it make players react to it? Does it steer players to play super conservatively? Do they game the system to avoid consequences? How do bugs or lag or crashes impact it? Do those things make it worse?
If the answers to those questions arent positive.. then what is the point? Because it has always been that way? That isnt good enough. It is an mmo and games can change and they should if the design doesnt live up to the goal of making it fun.
The only arguments for it... seem to be... 'hard is better cause its hard!' Or 'its always been hard and i got used to it so everyone should!' Or 'i like to steal items and ruin other peoples days!'. None of that is positive or constructive for the game overall.
Dragonrealms is not a hardmode game. It is just an old game. Dont confuse the two. Dragonrealms was the wow of its day.
There is a reason most games do not do well with rulesets from the 90s. A lot of the design goals have evolved. The very idea of 'coddling' players is a falacy. Making a system that doesnt punish for punishment sake is not coddling. It is risk vs reward. And there are better ways to do it than arbitrary loss of items.
You basically are complaining that kids these days dont have to walk through the snow 10 miles and up hill. Even though there is no point to making them do that.
Again. What is the gain to item loss or graverobbing? How does it improve the game? How does it improve the player experience of the game? How does it make players react to it? Does it steer players to play super conservatively? Do they game the system to avoid consequences? How do bugs or lag or crashes impact it? Do those things make it worse?
If the answers to those questions arent positive.. then what is the point? Because it has always been that way? That isnt good enough. It is an mmo and games can change and they should if the design doesnt live up to the goal of making it fun.
The only arguments for it... seem to be... 'hard is better cause its hard!' Or 'its always been hard and i got used to it so everyone should!' Or 'i like to steal items and ruin other peoples days!'. None of that is positive or constructive for the game overall.
TOTLIIO
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 04:09 PM CST
<<Dragonrealms is not a hardmode game. It is just an old game. Dont confuse the two. Dragonrealms was the wow of its day.
There is a reason most games do not do well with rulesets from the 90s. A lot of the design goals have evolved. The very idea of 'coddling' players is a falacy. Making a system that doesnt punish for punishment sake is not coddling. It is risk vs reward. And there are better ways to do it than arbitrary loss of items.>>>
I disagree, i play dragonrealms because it has the more classic ruleset. Again, the loss of items is not arbitrary and it is mitigated if you take even the most minor of preparations ;) You are simply arguing for the sake of arguing.
<<<Again. What is the gain to item loss or graverobbing? How does it improve the game? How does it improve the player experience of the game? How does it make players react to it? Does it steer players to play super conservatively? Do they game the system to avoid consequences? How do bugs or lag or crashes impact it? Do those things make it worse?
If the answers to those questions arent positive.. then what is the point? Because it has always been that way? That isnt good enough. It is an mmo and games can change and they should if the design doesnt live up to the goal of making it fun.>>>>
There is no gain for the person dying. That is the whole point in and of itself. You shouldn't want to die. Please, the exp loss thing is a joke now. I personally don't want to see the penalty lowered anymore than it already has been. As it is now it is pretty sad if someone leaves a grave, especially if it is an older player.
<<<The only arguments for it... seem to be... 'hard is better cause its hard!' Or 'its always been hard and i got used to it so everyone should!' Or 'i like to steal items and ruin other peoples days!'. None of that is positive or constructive for the game overall.>>>
This along with your tabletop comment just tells me that you have a hard time dealing with consequences in your gaming. Thats fine, you want a simple wow-like experience. Thats great. But it isnt Dragonrealms I really hope it doesnt become dragonrealms, cause that will make me question my subscription.
There is a reason most games do not do well with rulesets from the 90s. A lot of the design goals have evolved. The very idea of 'coddling' players is a falacy. Making a system that doesnt punish for punishment sake is not coddling. It is risk vs reward. And there are better ways to do it than arbitrary loss of items.>>>
I disagree, i play dragonrealms because it has the more classic ruleset. Again, the loss of items is not arbitrary and it is mitigated if you take even the most minor of preparations ;) You are simply arguing for the sake of arguing.
<<<Again. What is the gain to item loss or graverobbing? How does it improve the game? How does it improve the player experience of the game? How does it make players react to it? Does it steer players to play super conservatively? Do they game the system to avoid consequences? How do bugs or lag or crashes impact it? Do those things make it worse?
If the answers to those questions arent positive.. then what is the point? Because it has always been that way? That isnt good enough. It is an mmo and games can change and they should if the design doesnt live up to the goal of making it fun.>>>>
There is no gain for the person dying. That is the whole point in and of itself. You shouldn't want to die. Please, the exp loss thing is a joke now. I personally don't want to see the penalty lowered anymore than it already has been. As it is now it is pretty sad if someone leaves a grave, especially if it is an older player.
<<<The only arguments for it... seem to be... 'hard is better cause its hard!' Or 'its always been hard and i got used to it so everyone should!' Or 'i like to steal items and ruin other peoples days!'. None of that is positive or constructive for the game overall.>>>
This along with your tabletop comment just tells me that you have a hard time dealing with consequences in your gaming. Thats fine, you want a simple wow-like experience. Thats great. But it isnt Dragonrealms I really hope it doesnt become dragonrealms, cause that will make me question my subscription.
JUSTAGNOME2
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 04:17 PM CST
Loss lends a sense of gravitas. With no risk, and no impending anxiety, then death really does lose any meaning or consequence. Combat is even easier and takes twice as long for you to die.
It's a niche game. You're not going to drum up any new players or market appeal by reforming mechanics to your own personal liking. What you're going to do is make several guilds' abilities obsolete, thus disenfranchise the members of those guilds. Do you have proposed means to ameliorate what those guilds lose to accommodate your sense of "fun" and "fair?" Glyph ward and self resurrection all become obsolete.
My necromancer has 0 favors, and doesn't have spiteful rebirth. I've had to run to my grave and hope for the best several times in the last few weeks. There's a thrill there, and a sense of loss, and it makes me invest more emotionally in the game and my character than I otherwise would have. I pay closer attention with my necromancer as a result of potential loss.
I mean, I even left off "item registration and lost and found" from my prior post. There are 6 mechanics in place. Why are none of them good enough?
You've articulated that item loss != fun. I have articulated all the mechanics in place to avoid item loss. You have yet to address why any of these mechanics in place are not good enough, and thus your fun is diminished.
Risk is in and of itself its own reward. I'm not sure how nerfing 3 guilds, and ignoring 6 different systems of mechanics, is going to make the enjoyment go up for anyone but the people that can't stop typoing depart items. I think a confirmation message for depart as to the nature of what type of depart you are utilizing addresses the issue nicely.
Can you tell me why it would not, and why the current mechanics in place are insufficient?
It's a niche game. You're not going to drum up any new players or market appeal by reforming mechanics to your own personal liking. What you're going to do is make several guilds' abilities obsolete, thus disenfranchise the members of those guilds. Do you have proposed means to ameliorate what those guilds lose to accommodate your sense of "fun" and "fair?" Glyph ward and self resurrection all become obsolete.
My necromancer has 0 favors, and doesn't have spiteful rebirth. I've had to run to my grave and hope for the best several times in the last few weeks. There's a thrill there, and a sense of loss, and it makes me invest more emotionally in the game and my character than I otherwise would have. I pay closer attention with my necromancer as a result of potential loss.
I mean, I even left off "item registration and lost and found" from my prior post. There are 6 mechanics in place. Why are none of them good enough?
You've articulated that item loss != fun. I have articulated all the mechanics in place to avoid item loss. You have yet to address why any of these mechanics in place are not good enough, and thus your fun is diminished.
Risk is in and of itself its own reward. I'm not sure how nerfing 3 guilds, and ignoring 6 different systems of mechanics, is going to make the enjoyment go up for anyone but the people that can't stop typoing depart items. I think a confirmation message for depart as to the nature of what type of depart you are utilizing addresses the issue nicely.
Can you tell me why it would not, and why the current mechanics in place are insufficient?
THAYET
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 04:21 PM CST
As the player of a Necromancer, the changes I've already suggested would not in any way nerf Necromancers or their toolbox IMHO. Cleric self-rez has other uses beyond avoiding item loss as well. Warding can be tweaked to do something else that is more useful, and frankly nobody complained about Paladins being nerfed when DEPART ITEM came out.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
JUSTAGNOME2
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 04:25 PM CST
The uses for MF become:
1) reducing favors used to be alive again with your items. 1 instead of 2 or 3.
2) avoiding death sickness.
That's it. It's almost better to depart at that point since you'll have to get the rash healed anyway.
The guild that would stand to benefit most from item loss being removed/graves being removed are necromancers. They've already had so many life quality updates. I would not want this to be one of them, personally.
1) reducing favors used to be alive again with your items. 1 instead of 2 or 3.
2) avoiding death sickness.
That's it. It's almost better to depart at that point since you'll have to get the rash healed anyway.
The guild that would stand to benefit most from item loss being removed/graves being removed are necromancers. They've already had so many life quality updates. I would not want this to be one of them, personally.
TOTLIIO
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 04:25 PM CST
<<As the player of a Necromancer, the changes I've already suggested would not in any way nerf Necromancers or their toolbox IMHO. Cleric self-rez has other uses beyond avoiding item loss as well. Warding can be tweaked to do something else that is more useful, and frankly nobody complained about Paladins being nerfed when DEPART ITEM came out.>>
In fairness thats probably because all 5 paladins that play DR were probably already too sad about their guilds state to care about glyphs. ;p lol
THAYET
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 04:31 PM CST
Glyphs could frankly already use a revision.
>> The guild that would stand to benefit most from item loss being removed/graves being removed are necromancers.
I support graves still being a thing when you're favorless or autodepart, I just think they should work differently. Which would still mean favorless Necromancers are hosed without SRE or CRE. I think I even posted that.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
>> The guild that would stand to benefit most from item loss being removed/graves being removed are necromancers.
I support graves still being a thing when you're favorless or autodepart, I just think they should work differently. Which would still mean favorless Necromancers are hosed without SRE or CRE. I think I even posted that.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
THAYET
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 05:05 PM CST
doublepostin' because I forgot
>> The uses for MF become:
3. A decent shot at retaining spell scrolls.
4. Retaining a chunk of your field experience.
SRE gives the same perks as MF too except less good.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
>> The uses for MF become:
3. A decent shot at retaining spell scrolls.
4. Retaining a chunk of your field experience.
SRE gives the same perks as MF too except less good.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
TEVESHSZAT
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 05:16 PM CST
>>You don't play Dark Souls and decry the injustice of its difficulty.
You'll note that anyone who plays Dark Souls never says the game is unfair, just hard.
A death in dark souls with total soul loss means I need to grind 10-15 minutes to recover any souls I lost if I'm trying to level. The exp model is totally different than DR. Heck, the bigger bite for DS death was the loss of humanity, and the DLC gives you a pretty hat that can totally negate that if you want.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
You'll note that anyone who plays Dark Souls never says the game is unfair, just hard.
A death in dark souls with total soul loss means I need to grind 10-15 minutes to recover any souls I lost if I'm trying to level. The exp model is totally different than DR. Heck, the bigger bite for DS death was the loss of humanity, and the DLC gives you a pretty hat that can totally negate that if you want.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 05:25 PM CST
>>Again, the loss of items is not arbitrary and it is mitigated if you take even the most minor of preparations ;)
At the same point, if it's so minor/toothless, why keep it around?
Honestly, I wouldn't be shocked to see graves essentially go away in a year or so and penalties connected to death focusing more on exp loss, death's sting, and maybe some gear damage.
Heck, maybe exp loss would go away and a rebuff to exp gain enters the equation, instead.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
At the same point, if it's so minor/toothless, why keep it around?
Honestly, I wouldn't be shocked to see graves essentially go away in a year or so and penalties connected to death focusing more on exp loss, death's sting, and maybe some gear damage.
Heck, maybe exp loss would go away and a rebuff to exp gain enters the equation, instead.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
SHAWN255
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 05:35 PM CST
If there are so many ways around it... it just makes it that much worse when something goes wrong.
Death in a game shouldnt lower your desire to play the game. It should just make you want to play better. Currently that is not the case. It just makes you want to buy OOC pay to win items to prevent it or get around the harsh penalties in other ways. It doesnt encourage better play or more enjoyment.
I mean hell.. you are pointing out all these systems designed to simply make it less bad... when the simple and easy solution is just to remove the problem that is the main issue. I would much rather have the root of the problem removed and let GMs spend their time on systems that actually are enjoyable to the majority of players.
The two or three of you saying it is so great with item loss or graverobbing... will still play if it is gone. So really who care what you think when the rest of the players will enjoy the game more? Its like a bunch of old farts saying that dial up is the only real way to play and you should only get to play if you log in through GEnie. Everyone would ignore you. And you could always RP item loss if you miss it that badly.
Death in a game shouldnt lower your desire to play the game. It should just make you want to play better. Currently that is not the case. It just makes you want to buy OOC pay to win items to prevent it or get around the harsh penalties in other ways. It doesnt encourage better play or more enjoyment.
I mean hell.. you are pointing out all these systems designed to simply make it less bad... when the simple and easy solution is just to remove the problem that is the main issue. I would much rather have the root of the problem removed and let GMs spend their time on systems that actually are enjoyable to the majority of players.
The two or three of you saying it is so great with item loss or graverobbing... will still play if it is gone. So really who care what you think when the rest of the players will enjoy the game more? Its like a bunch of old farts saying that dial up is the only real way to play and you should only get to play if you log in through GEnie. Everyone would ignore you. And you could always RP item loss if you miss it that badly.
MICHAELP2002
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 06:02 PM CST
To say necromancers would gain the most from this is laughable. We already have the ability to pop back up, and even to depart with our items. Sure, the number of times we can do this in a short period is limited, but why would we just pop up repeatedly to get blasted again?
ABSOLON
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 06:06 PM CST
Graverobbing should be removed not because of whatever difficulty one feels death has in DR, but rather because it's a toy that really needs to be taken away from griefers. If one wants to be politically correct about it then call them K bartle types who target S-bartle types. I don't really care. It amounts to the same thing.
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THAYET
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 06:18 PM CST
I'd be down for seeing more significant gear damage happen upon death, and for gear repair costs to go up in general. Rare/very rare materials should really apply a large repair cost multiplier. Granted, at present that's negated with a handful of outfitting/forging ranks, but I'm sure it could be rethought.
>> Heck, maybe exp loss would go away and a rebuff to exp gain enters the equation, instead.
I've suggested something like this before and I'd still love to see it. Remove or cap rank loss a bit lower than it presently is, and instead place a massive penalty on experience gain for the next however long.
But with a system like that I'd also like to see recovery from death be a more proactive process in general with more things you can do to speed it along. Right now we have Uncurse or Alamhif's Gift which are boring and/or (in the case of AG) expensive. Being able to make offerings or something for relief from death's sting would be nice.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
>> Heck, maybe exp loss would go away and a rebuff to exp gain enters the equation, instead.
I've suggested something like this before and I'd still love to see it. Remove or cap rank loss a bit lower than it presently is, and instead place a massive penalty on experience gain for the next however long.
But with a system like that I'd also like to see recovery from death be a more proactive process in general with more things you can do to speed it along. Right now we have Uncurse or Alamhif's Gift which are boring and/or (in the case of AG) expensive. Being able to make offerings or something for relief from death's sting would be nice.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
JUSTAGNOME2
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 06:42 PM CST
>>If there are so many ways around it... it just makes it that much worse when something goes wrong.
I'm not sure I understand why this makes it worse. Guilt and lack of sympathy?
>>Death in a game shouldnt lower your desire to play the game. It should just make you want to play better. Currently that is not the case. It just makes you want to buy OOC pay to win items to prevent it or get around the harsh penalties in other ways. It doesnt encourage better play or more enjoyment.
I disagree. Knowing that I can be graverobbed means that I will spend more time talking and being cordial, and less time attempting to verbally antagonize the people that I know will kill me, and attempt to take my items. This forces me to think on my feet, and be more creative about the ways in which I approach conflict.
>>I mean hell.. you are pointing out all these systems designed to simply make it less bad... when the simple and easy solution is just to remove the problem that is the main issue. I would much rather have the root of the problem removed and let GMs spend their time on systems that actually are enjoyable to the majority of players.
This is an oversimplification. By the same logic, why not just remove death? That is in fact the main issue. The complications involved with death are the symptoms.
>>The two or three of you saying it is so great with item loss or graverobbing... will still play if it is gone. So really who care what you think when the rest of the players will enjoy the game more? Its like a bunch of old farts saying that dial up is the only real way to play and you should only get to play if you log in through GEnie. Everyone would ignore you. And you could always RP item loss if you miss it that badly.
There's nothing great about graverobbing or item loss. What is great is roleplay, risk, and opportunity for conflict. I would prefer to see this game go in the opposite direction, and re-add permanent death. Anything that makes you more conscious and "present" in the moment is good to me. Risk, loss, conflict accomplishes this.
You're making a lot of assertions about how other people think and feel on the issue, both people defending risk/loss, as well as people that would purportedly advocate for its removal. It's misleading, and I wish you would not. It's a extremely generous egocentric assumption on your part that everyone else would enjoy the game more if your suggestions were taken to heart. I'm certain there are people that agree with you and feel the same. But I lack the conceit to make such an assertion of my own opinion without polling the populace.
And yes, despite your claim, with risk loss diminished, it would make me less inclined to keep my 4 subs open. Risk and loss are not dated. They were intentional design decisions, the principles of which I stand by today.
- Tyrun, player of
I'm not sure I understand why this makes it worse. Guilt and lack of sympathy?
>>Death in a game shouldnt lower your desire to play the game. It should just make you want to play better. Currently that is not the case. It just makes you want to buy OOC pay to win items to prevent it or get around the harsh penalties in other ways. It doesnt encourage better play or more enjoyment.
I disagree. Knowing that I can be graverobbed means that I will spend more time talking and being cordial, and less time attempting to verbally antagonize the people that I know will kill me, and attempt to take my items. This forces me to think on my feet, and be more creative about the ways in which I approach conflict.
>>I mean hell.. you are pointing out all these systems designed to simply make it less bad... when the simple and easy solution is just to remove the problem that is the main issue. I would much rather have the root of the problem removed and let GMs spend their time on systems that actually are enjoyable to the majority of players.
This is an oversimplification. By the same logic, why not just remove death? That is in fact the main issue. The complications involved with death are the symptoms.
>>The two or three of you saying it is so great with item loss or graverobbing... will still play if it is gone. So really who care what you think when the rest of the players will enjoy the game more? Its like a bunch of old farts saying that dial up is the only real way to play and you should only get to play if you log in through GEnie. Everyone would ignore you. And you could always RP item loss if you miss it that badly.
There's nothing great about graverobbing or item loss. What is great is roleplay, risk, and opportunity for conflict. I would prefer to see this game go in the opposite direction, and re-add permanent death. Anything that makes you more conscious and "present" in the moment is good to me. Risk, loss, conflict accomplishes this.
You're making a lot of assertions about how other people think and feel on the issue, both people defending risk/loss, as well as people that would purportedly advocate for its removal. It's misleading, and I wish you would not. It's a extremely generous egocentric assumption on your part that everyone else would enjoy the game more if your suggestions were taken to heart. I'm certain there are people that agree with you and feel the same. But I lack the conceit to make such an assertion of my own opinion without polling the populace.
And yes, despite your claim, with risk loss diminished, it would make me less inclined to keep my 4 subs open. Risk and loss are not dated. They were intentional design decisions, the principles of which I stand by today.
- Tyrun, player of
SHAWN255
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 07:01 PM CST
>>Guilt and lack of sympathy?
More like frustration. Other poorly designed or poorly updated systems. Bugs. Crashes. Lag. All of that compounds the situation.
>>Knowing that I can be graverobbed means that I will spend more time talking and being cordial
Doesnt always work. Especially when considering the factors mentioned above. Also, not everyone wants every death to be a potential for interaction or conflict. You are just further penalizing someone for dying.
>>why not just remove death
You can reevaluate death and its impact without removing it entirely. Having consequences isnt a bad thing. But they should be in line with the level of mistake. Again.. punishment should fit the crime. It is a game.. you dont want it to be so harsh that it removes the enjoyment value. But it should also be enough that it encourages better play.
>>What is great is roleplay, risk, and opportunity for conflict.
I agree. But you dont need item loss and graverobbing to achieve that. Especially when the systems arent set up, and never have been, to make resolution of those scenarios satisfactory to anyone involved.
You are also clearly in the minority with wanting it to go in the other direction. Item loss sucks.. and just leads to people vaulting items instead of using them.. which is a waste. Risk is great.. if the rewards compensate for it.. but the game isnt set up for it.
I am not misleading anyone. It is simple. No one would quit over item loss or graverobbing being removed... but plenty of people over the years HAVE quit over losing items.
More like frustration. Other poorly designed or poorly updated systems. Bugs. Crashes. Lag. All of that compounds the situation.
>>Knowing that I can be graverobbed means that I will spend more time talking and being cordial
Doesnt always work. Especially when considering the factors mentioned above. Also, not everyone wants every death to be a potential for interaction or conflict. You are just further penalizing someone for dying.
>>why not just remove death
You can reevaluate death and its impact without removing it entirely. Having consequences isnt a bad thing. But they should be in line with the level of mistake. Again.. punishment should fit the crime. It is a game.. you dont want it to be so harsh that it removes the enjoyment value. But it should also be enough that it encourages better play.
>>What is great is roleplay, risk, and opportunity for conflict.
I agree. But you dont need item loss and graverobbing to achieve that. Especially when the systems arent set up, and never have been, to make resolution of those scenarios satisfactory to anyone involved.
You are also clearly in the minority with wanting it to go in the other direction. Item loss sucks.. and just leads to people vaulting items instead of using them.. which is a waste. Risk is great.. if the rewards compensate for it.. but the game isnt set up for it.
I am not misleading anyone. It is simple. No one would quit over item loss or graverobbing being removed... but plenty of people over the years HAVE quit over losing items.
JUSTAGNOME2
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 07:43 PM CST
>>I agree. But you dont need item loss and graverobbing to achieve that. Especially when the systems arent set up, and never have been, to make resolution of those scenarios satisfactory to anyone involved.
Disagree.
>>You are also clearly in the minority with wanting it to go in the other direction. Item loss sucks.. and just leads to people vaulting items instead of using them.. which is a waste. Risk is great.. if the rewards compensate for it.. but the game isnt set up for it.
Your opinion is that I am the minority. That's based on what? The ever accurate sampling size of the DR population replying to this thread? I don't see any facts here. Just wild assertions.
>>I am not misleading anyone. It is simple. No one would quit over item loss or graverobbing being removed... but plenty of people over the years HAVE quit over losing items.
Your prior sentence was misleading. You're stating your opinions as facts. That's misleading. I would quit over risk factors being removed from the game. That makes your following statement false and misleading as well. Who has quit over item loss? You state that a lot of people have left over this. I don't see any quoted account names, character names, dollar figures on lost revenue, nothing.
You make a lot of statements about how other people think and feel. That's a problem. I don't see anything but opinion masqueraded as fact, and I find that disconcerting. You're welcome to your opinion on risk and item loss. Misrepresenting your case, the numbers of people that support your case, and the opposition's feelings/potential actions is a disservice to both you as well as the discussion at hand.
Disagree.
>>You are also clearly in the minority with wanting it to go in the other direction. Item loss sucks.. and just leads to people vaulting items instead of using them.. which is a waste. Risk is great.. if the rewards compensate for it.. but the game isnt set up for it.
Your opinion is that I am the minority. That's based on what? The ever accurate sampling size of the DR population replying to this thread? I don't see any facts here. Just wild assertions.
>>I am not misleading anyone. It is simple. No one would quit over item loss or graverobbing being removed... but plenty of people over the years HAVE quit over losing items.
Your prior sentence was misleading. You're stating your opinions as facts. That's misleading. I would quit over risk factors being removed from the game. That makes your following statement false and misleading as well. Who has quit over item loss? You state that a lot of people have left over this. I don't see any quoted account names, character names, dollar figures on lost revenue, nothing.
You make a lot of statements about how other people think and feel. That's a problem. I don't see anything but opinion masqueraded as fact, and I find that disconcerting. You're welcome to your opinion on risk and item loss. Misrepresenting your case, the numbers of people that support your case, and the opposition's feelings/potential actions is a disservice to both you as well as the discussion at hand.
ISHARON
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 08:35 PM CST
>>Teveshszat: Heck, maybe exp loss would go away and a rebuff to exp gain enters the equation, instead.
I'd love to see the loss of earned ranks either go away entirely or be mitigated with an additional depart option. In exchange, I would be willing to suffer a temporary penalty to experience after departing.
>>Justagnome2: Do you have proposed means to ameliorate what those guilds lose to accommodate your sense of "fun" and "fair?" Glyph ward and self resurrection all become obsolete.
Honestly, I would love it if Paladin abilities were not so death-centric, but that's a topic for another thread.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
I'd love to see the loss of earned ranks either go away entirely or be mitigated with an additional depart option. In exchange, I would be willing to suffer a temporary penalty to experience after departing.
>>Justagnome2: Do you have proposed means to ameliorate what those guilds lose to accommodate your sense of "fun" and "fair?" Glyph ward and self resurrection all become obsolete.
Honestly, I would love it if Paladin abilities were not so death-centric, but that's a topic for another thread.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
TEVESHSZAT
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 08:37 PM CST
I guess I'm just at a loss as to how someone can view losing all their items gained from years of quests, festivals, alterations, etc as an enjoyable game experience.
The penalty for AFK scripting is losing a notable chunk of your skills. These are things that can take months/years to acquire depending on how you play. Similarly, it might take just as long to get certain items. To me, it's odd that one major loss of time/work is seen as one of the greatest punishments in the game, while a different form is seen as entertaining.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
The penalty for AFK scripting is losing a notable chunk of your skills. These are things that can take months/years to acquire depending on how you play. Similarly, it might take just as long to get certain items. To me, it's odd that one major loss of time/work is seen as one of the greatest punishments in the game, while a different form is seen as entertaining.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
TEHNECRO
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 09:59 PM CST
>>I guess I'm just at a loss as to how someone can view losing all their items gained from years of quests, festivals, alterations, etc as an enjoyable game experience.
Honestly, it's not the loss of it. It's avoiding the loss that I find thrilling. Evading death. Defying the odds. But I want the risks to be there. How can I enjoy fleeing into the fire swamp to evade my pursuers if there's no risky fire swamp? How can I fear the fire swamps creature's, or even my pursuers, if when I die nothing matters? I don't lose anything except 30 minutes of script time.
I prefer there to be consequences and a threat to have real potential to do something that displeases me as incentive to care about the rest of it. It makes me feel more immersed in my character, and more in touch with what I would perceive to be their thoughts, because suddenly the inconvenience triggers my own emotional reaction. That emotional reaction is a thread I can unravel to create in character roleplay.
Dragonrealms is a more realistic text game. Its more descriptive, its immersive, it was designed to edge gleefully against the uncanny valley phenomena. The numbers are back end, not front end. You pick up individual items. Combat is filled with descriptive verbiage. There are ranges to combat engagement. There are individual skills that represent activities you would undertake to garner knowledge of them and then become better. The intent of complexity bordering on realism was there from the onset. Hasn't it already been paired down enough? Gemstone, to me, sounds more suitable for this desired level of immersion I hear vocalized, and why I left there many years ago.
I decline when given the opportunity to simplify this game anymore than it already has been. I'm all for informational disclaimer, but I am not in favor of removing any further mechanics to placate the "vocal minority."
I don't want to be deprived of the immersion of actual risk. I want emotional incentives as a player to invest me into my character, to form my roleplay, to force more thought into how I act, every moment I spend, how I talk to people, how and why my character has a God and what that God is. Emotional decisions are important in what is supposed to be a medium where we can articulate parts of ourselves that we otherwise would not have an opportunity to do so. Make me caaaaare about my character, my friends, my enemies.
Or this could be a cool chatroom with dressup and some stats, I guess... :/
- Player of Tyrun
Honestly, it's not the loss of it. It's avoiding the loss that I find thrilling. Evading death. Defying the odds. But I want the risks to be there. How can I enjoy fleeing into the fire swamp to evade my pursuers if there's no risky fire swamp? How can I fear the fire swamps creature's, or even my pursuers, if when I die nothing matters? I don't lose anything except 30 minutes of script time.
I prefer there to be consequences and a threat to have real potential to do something that displeases me as incentive to care about the rest of it. It makes me feel more immersed in my character, and more in touch with what I would perceive to be their thoughts, because suddenly the inconvenience triggers my own emotional reaction. That emotional reaction is a thread I can unravel to create in character roleplay.
Dragonrealms is a more realistic text game. Its more descriptive, its immersive, it was designed to edge gleefully against the uncanny valley phenomena. The numbers are back end, not front end. You pick up individual items. Combat is filled with descriptive verbiage. There are ranges to combat engagement. There are individual skills that represent activities you would undertake to garner knowledge of them and then become better. The intent of complexity bordering on realism was there from the onset. Hasn't it already been paired down enough? Gemstone, to me, sounds more suitable for this desired level of immersion I hear vocalized, and why I left there many years ago.
I decline when given the opportunity to simplify this game anymore than it already has been. I'm all for informational disclaimer, but I am not in favor of removing any further mechanics to placate the "vocal minority."
I don't want to be deprived of the immersion of actual risk. I want emotional incentives as a player to invest me into my character, to form my roleplay, to force more thought into how I act, every moment I spend, how I talk to people, how and why my character has a God and what that God is. Emotional decisions are important in what is supposed to be a medium where we can articulate parts of ourselves that we otherwise would not have an opportunity to do so. Make me caaaaare about my character, my friends, my enemies.
Or this could be a cool chatroom with dressup and some stats, I guess... :/
- Player of Tyrun
TEVESHSZAT
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 11:20 PM CST
>> if when I die nothing matters?
As I said, I think there are ways to give teeth (or more teeth!) to death that aren't as "well, there goes that item you had for a decade"
>>Or this could be a cool chatroom with dressup and some stats, I guess... :/
First off, at it's most basic level, DR was always a roleplay chatroom with combat mechanics, if you look at things in a very cynical light.
That said, I think there's a notable amount of space between people not wanting to lose their things that they kept around for decades vs the game being ultra padded soft and safe.
Heck, going back to the Dark Souls example before of "hardcore" gameplay: the only thing you lose in that is the easiest thing to acquire in the game, yet the game is nothing but a big ball of stress and anxiety for all of the players there, and that's the type of game which is nothing but edge-of-your-seat risk.
I doubt graves are going away anytime soon. I definitely think the change, if any, will be making DEPART ITEM the default option. Everyone seems to be on board with this idea, too! At the same time, I would not be shocked in the least if graves eventually go away and newer more modernized gameplay concepts of what makes death hurt get introduced.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
As I said, I think there are ways to give teeth (or more teeth!) to death that aren't as "well, there goes that item you had for a decade"
>>Or this could be a cool chatroom with dressup and some stats, I guess... :/
First off, at it's most basic level, DR was always a roleplay chatroom with combat mechanics, if you look at things in a very cynical light.
That said, I think there's a notable amount of space between people not wanting to lose their things that they kept around for decades vs the game being ultra padded soft and safe.
Heck, going back to the Dark Souls example before of "hardcore" gameplay: the only thing you lose in that is the easiest thing to acquire in the game, yet the game is nothing but a big ball of stress and anxiety for all of the players there, and that's the type of game which is nothing but edge-of-your-seat risk.
I doubt graves are going away anytime soon. I definitely think the change, if any, will be making DEPART ITEM the default option. Everyone seems to be on board with this idea, too! At the same time, I would not be shocked in the least if graves eventually go away and newer more modernized gameplay concepts of what makes death hurt get introduced.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
SYRAKEN
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 11:25 PM CST
Don't fight with anything you aren't willing to lose and don't hold onto valuable things in the open that a thief might want. Words to live by.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: War and grave robbers
01/11/2016 11:48 PM CST
>>Don't fight with anything you aren't willing to lose and don't hold onto valuable things in the open that a thief might want. Words to live by.
Very silly words, since this discussion is about graves in particular.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Very silly words, since this discussion is about graves in particular.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
SYRAKEN
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 12:17 AM CST
So saying don't wear it if you aren't willing to lose it is silly? If it was in a vault, wouldn't have a chance of losing it if you died.
GALLAHAN
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 12:37 AM CST
I wouldn't mind DEPART defaulting to DEPART HELP and showing the syntax, DEPART NONE being added as an option that departs with a grave, and requiring DEPART <option> be used to actually depart.
DEPART NONE, DEPART ITEMS, DEPART COINS, and DEPART FULL would all cause you to depart based on the option specified.
DEPART, DEPART HELP, DEPART CIONS, DEPART ITMES, DEPART INVENTORY, DEPART ALL, DEPART FGHKGADG would all show the proper syntax for depart.
That seems like the "smallest" change (I doubt it is as simple as it sounds) I can think of that would address typo's and people typing DEPART either by accident or not knowing any better.
I haven't died very often since the depart options were added, and the times I have died I was usually in a place where I had a high chance of being resurrected.
The few times I did decide to depart I looked up the syntax in Elanthipedia out of paranoia that accidentally typing the syntax might result in the default action. I would think that typing DEPART INVENTORY or DEPART ALL would give you a syntax error and show the valid options, but it wasn't a risk I was willing to take.
DEPART NONE, DEPART ITEMS, DEPART COINS, and DEPART FULL would all cause you to depart based on the option specified.
DEPART, DEPART HELP, DEPART CIONS, DEPART ITMES, DEPART INVENTORY, DEPART ALL, DEPART FGHKGADG would all show the proper syntax for depart.
That seems like the "smallest" change (I doubt it is as simple as it sounds) I can think of that would address typo's and people typing DEPART either by accident or not knowing any better.
I haven't died very often since the depart options were added, and the times I have died I was usually in a place where I had a high chance of being resurrected.
The few times I did decide to depart I looked up the syntax in Elanthipedia out of paranoia that accidentally typing the syntax might result in the default action. I would think that typing DEPART INVENTORY or DEPART ALL would give you a syntax error and show the valid options, but it wasn't a risk I was willing to take.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 12:45 AM CST
>>So saying don't wear it if you aren't willing to lose it is silly?
Absolutely. My understanding is that GMs aren't fans of items they create becoming vault fodder, which is why a lot of quest end prizes these days are on timers as opposed to charges (because when the latter was the trend, they were never used). I would be surprised if that mindset does not expand to items as a whole.
"Vault rare items to 100% protect them forever," is an extremely silly stance to promote.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Absolutely. My understanding is that GMs aren't fans of items they create becoming vault fodder, which is why a lot of quest end prizes these days are on timers as opposed to charges (because when the latter was the trend, they were never used). I would be surprised if that mindset does not expand to items as a whole.
"Vault rare items to 100% protect them forever," is an extremely silly stance to promote.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
FLINT-TIPPED
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 12:48 AM CST
I don't want the scroll of Help or a query asking me if I'm sure when I type depart. I can see the value of either or both for new characters for the first death or 3 though.
I -would- like to be able to choose a saved depart setting so I could just type depart and it would use my set default of depart full.
Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
I -would- like to be able to choose a saved depart setting so I could just type depart and it would use my set default of depart full.
Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
TEHNECRO
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 01:32 AM CST
>>I doubt graves are going away anytime soon. I definitely think the change, if any, will be making DEPART ITEM the default option. Everyone seems to be on board with this idea, too! At the same time, I would not be shocked in the least if graves eventually go away and newer more modernized gameplay concepts of what makes death hurt get introduced.
I remember at one point upon depart we were ghosts and had to go find our graves again. I would be fine with a mechanic similar: you're a ghost and race the clock where if you make it back to your grave in time, within 2 minutes or something, you end up with all your items and alive again from your immortal's favor... but if you don't, your grave starts spewing things as normal.
Punish me for inattentiveness. Punish me for risking my life and failing to preserve it. Punish me for not putting more thought into the consequence of my character's actions. I want to die and be like OH NO, OH MY LORD HULDAH PRESERVE MY GRAVE AND LET ME BE FLEET OF FOOT, AND I WILL MAKE IT THROUGH THIS EVE NAY A PAUPER NEWLY MADE; then pull up a map and make my way swiftly to the mountainside stream next to which I was slain, newly made, wearing all my things, patting myself in marked surprise, then supping from the stream, only to discover poison, and repeat the journey again.
An example is the pit trap in Throne City. Random mercilessness that I appreciate. My character, without favors, tumbles in and dies on a bed of spikes after fleeing the gaping maws of several crocodiles... then has to make his way back to his grave said pit of spikes, slowly regenerating vitality while naked before being able to make the venture.
Or the Theren Door, with the sweeping scythe blade you have to wait for the click on.
Or the Ratha doors where the pirates can imprison you in the dark and you're screwed if you have no lockpick. Beautiful.
Or the poison room in Chyolveau Tay'eau (sp?). Or the Vykathi hive in general (no gweth, shifting maze, triskele medallion required).
These are environmental manifestations of the same gameplay and game design philosophies that I really enjoy. I'm sure there are tons more examples. (Walking the starry road, how I miss thee)
But I know this isn't exactly what everyone is looking for, so I'm trying to figure out what the middle is. I like consequence, I like the hardcore stuff and the brutality. I know it's not for everyone, but it's been moving in the direction of boringly easy to subvert for a long time for someone like me that's a glutton for punishment.
I am sympathetic to the plight of losing items. We have all been there, some of us many times. But I am truly exasperated that people think we need to make this game coddle me even more so now than it did in 1996 when I was 13. Please leave graves alone.
I remember at one point upon depart we were ghosts and had to go find our graves again. I would be fine with a mechanic similar: you're a ghost and race the clock where if you make it back to your grave in time, within 2 minutes or something, you end up with all your items and alive again from your immortal's favor... but if you don't, your grave starts spewing things as normal.
Punish me for inattentiveness. Punish me for risking my life and failing to preserve it. Punish me for not putting more thought into the consequence of my character's actions. I want to die and be like OH NO, OH MY LORD HULDAH PRESERVE MY GRAVE AND LET ME BE FLEET OF FOOT, AND I WILL MAKE IT THROUGH THIS EVE NAY A PAUPER NEWLY MADE; then pull up a map and make my way swiftly to the mountainside stream next to which I was slain, newly made, wearing all my things, patting myself in marked surprise, then supping from the stream, only to discover poison, and repeat the journey again.
An example is the pit trap in Throne City. Random mercilessness that I appreciate. My character, without favors, tumbles in and dies on a bed of spikes after fleeing the gaping maws of several crocodiles... then has to make his way back to his grave said pit of spikes, slowly regenerating vitality while naked before being able to make the venture.
Or the Theren Door, with the sweeping scythe blade you have to wait for the click on.
Or the Ratha doors where the pirates can imprison you in the dark and you're screwed if you have no lockpick. Beautiful.
Or the poison room in Chyolveau Tay'eau (sp?). Or the Vykathi hive in general (no gweth, shifting maze, triskele medallion required).
These are environmental manifestations of the same gameplay and game design philosophies that I really enjoy. I'm sure there are tons more examples. (Walking the starry road, how I miss thee)
But I know this isn't exactly what everyone is looking for, so I'm trying to figure out what the middle is. I like consequence, I like the hardcore stuff and the brutality. I know it's not for everyone, but it's been moving in the direction of boringly easy to subvert for a long time for someone like me that's a glutton for punishment.
I am sympathetic to the plight of losing items. We have all been there, some of us many times. But I am truly exasperated that people think we need to make this game coddle me even more so now than it did in 1996 when I was 13. Please leave graves alone.
SHAWN255
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 01:32 AM CST
>>disagree
With what? You find graverobbing to be satisfactory? I have yet to hear of a story where someone got graverobbed and they enjoyed the experience.
>>wild assertions
It isn't wild to say that graverobbing is almost universally disliked, except by griefers.
Look through the forums. You can find years and years worth of complaints and conversations about how bad graverobbing is and how it ruins the experience of DR. Item loss as well -- especially dying to a mob during a crash or lag.
This isn't new.. and to act like people are just craving these experiences... is the wild, ridiculous, and frankly out of touch with reality assertion.
The only people that argue for graverobbing or item loss... are people I would never want around me while I am dead.
>>I would quit
I call BS.
You claim to never be in a position to lose items... so you wouldn't even notice if it was changed today. You would still do those things because you don't want to die... you just might not have to buy as many pay2win bonding potions.
The reality is that your experience wouldn't change... unless something went wrong.. and then you just wouldn't get screwed over.
I had several friends back in the AOL/early web days quit because they screwed up, or lagged out, and lost something. It wasn't worth it to them.. and Item loss was even worse back then.. you could have some jerk use a spell and obliterate your armor and once it reached a certain point you couldn't even repair it. Thankfully changes have been implemented since then that rolled a lot of that stupidity back.
I am not a GM so I can't look up specifics, but I don't need to be to see the long history of posts like the OP's that show a pattern of frustration and dislike for this part of the game. It is more ridiculous to try to claim that people are okay with it. They tolerate it. they work around it. no one likes it, and if it went away, you would by far be in the minority if you actually mourned its loss.
You worry too much about my exaggerations while making your own. You act like graverobbing and item loss have a positive impact upon the game.. even though this topic and others like it repeatedly come up every time it happens. Clearly the people it happen to are not enjoying it.
Death is disproportionately hard in DR. For no real reason.. except that it was originally made in a time when that was how they made games. Not because it was balanced, or was even well thought out. And it has been moving away from that for 20 years.
Name a game that essentially tosses an hour worth of gaming time down the drain for one mistake. You are meant to die in DR. It is part of the game. So making it as harsh as it is... does a disservice to the player and the game. There are also better ways to 'add teeth to death' than destroying items that people work years to get. Higher repair costs, full repairs, healing only to a bare minimum to survive, exp penalties afterwards, etc. Any of those things can add depth to death without it screwing over the player to the point they don't want to play anymore.
With what? You find graverobbing to be satisfactory? I have yet to hear of a story where someone got graverobbed and they enjoyed the experience.
>>wild assertions
It isn't wild to say that graverobbing is almost universally disliked, except by griefers.
Look through the forums. You can find years and years worth of complaints and conversations about how bad graverobbing is and how it ruins the experience of DR. Item loss as well -- especially dying to a mob during a crash or lag.
This isn't new.. and to act like people are just craving these experiences... is the wild, ridiculous, and frankly out of touch with reality assertion.
The only people that argue for graverobbing or item loss... are people I would never want around me while I am dead.
>>I would quit
I call BS.
You claim to never be in a position to lose items... so you wouldn't even notice if it was changed today. You would still do those things because you don't want to die... you just might not have to buy as many pay2win bonding potions.
The reality is that your experience wouldn't change... unless something went wrong.. and then you just wouldn't get screwed over.
I had several friends back in the AOL/early web days quit because they screwed up, or lagged out, and lost something. It wasn't worth it to them.. and Item loss was even worse back then.. you could have some jerk use a spell and obliterate your armor and once it reached a certain point you couldn't even repair it. Thankfully changes have been implemented since then that rolled a lot of that stupidity back.
I am not a GM so I can't look up specifics, but I don't need to be to see the long history of posts like the OP's that show a pattern of frustration and dislike for this part of the game. It is more ridiculous to try to claim that people are okay with it. They tolerate it. they work around it. no one likes it, and if it went away, you would by far be in the minority if you actually mourned its loss.
You worry too much about my exaggerations while making your own. You act like graverobbing and item loss have a positive impact upon the game.. even though this topic and others like it repeatedly come up every time it happens. Clearly the people it happen to are not enjoying it.
Death is disproportionately hard in DR. For no real reason.. except that it was originally made in a time when that was how they made games. Not because it was balanced, or was even well thought out. And it has been moving away from that for 20 years.
Name a game that essentially tosses an hour worth of gaming time down the drain for one mistake. You are meant to die in DR. It is part of the game. So making it as harsh as it is... does a disservice to the player and the game. There are also better ways to 'add teeth to death' than destroying items that people work years to get. Higher repair costs, full repairs, healing only to a bare minimum to survive, exp penalties afterwards, etc. Any of those things can add depth to death without it screwing over the player to the point they don't want to play anymore.
SHAWN255
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 01:59 AM CST
>>I like consequence, I like the hardcore stuff and the brutality.
I even understand what you are looking for. I am fine with consequences.. but they should fit and be appropriate for the situation.
Item loss goes far beyond any reasonable expectation.. and 9 times out of 10 creates a situation that doesn't turn into some exciting mini-event.. it just becomes a hassle and a pain -- if the items are recovered, or just a negative memory if they aren't. Removing that doesn't coddle the player, it just prevents them from growing away from the game because of a completely unnecessary interaction.
I even understand what you are looking for. I am fine with consequences.. but they should fit and be appropriate for the situation.
Item loss goes far beyond any reasonable expectation.. and 9 times out of 10 creates a situation that doesn't turn into some exciting mini-event.. it just becomes a hassle and a pain -- if the items are recovered, or just a negative memory if they aren't. Removing that doesn't coddle the player, it just prevents them from growing away from the game because of a completely unnecessary interaction.
TEHNECRO
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 02:55 AM CST
>>With what? You find graverobbing to be satisfactory? I have yet to hear of a story where someone got graverobbed and they enjoyed the experience.
I find item risk to be satisfactory. The fact that it's players taking advantage of the situation is happenstance. It could be the janitor too, and the auto grave spew mechanics. It could be adan'f shadow mages that pick up items dropped on the ground and put them in their cloaks, or scavenger trolls, or trollkins. I want in game mechanics in place putting my items in my hand and in my inventory at risk, yes.
I was graverobbed by Jondong of my halberd with the cambrinth inlaid stock after a short battle and an exchange of mockeries. I was forced to eat crow, and appeal to his nostalgia for a time in gryphons when we hunted rooms apart. Yep, enjoyed it.
>>It isn't wild to say that graverobbing is almost universally disliked, except by griefers.
Yes. It's an in character despicable act reserved for villains of the lowest order. The avenues to mitigate this from an in character perspective mechanically speaking are VAST.
>>Look through the forums. You can find years and years worth of complaints and conversations about how bad graverobbing is and how it ruins the experience of DR. Item loss as well -- especially dying to a mob during a crash or lag.
The squeaky wheel gets the oil.
>>This isn't new.. and to act like people are just craving these experiences... is the wild, ridiculous, and frankly out of touch with reality assertion.
I am craving these experiences. I do not think I am alone, but I refuse to put on airs about some sort of perceived vocal majority backing to lend false credence for readers to my argument. I'll leave that to you. I don't need propping up, thanks.
>>The only people that argue for graverobbing or item loss... are people I would never want around me while I am dead.
While I appreciate you stacking ad hominem attacks, you did not need to be so generous. Yes, some people do not put a pleasant face on one aspect of item risk. Other People were always that unaccounted for problem in the zombie apocalypse, too.
>>I call BS.
Please, tell me more about how I think and feel.
>>You claim to never be in a position to lose items... so you wouldn't even notice if it was changed today. You would still do those things because you don't want to die... you just might not have to buy as many pay2win bonding potions.
I take precautions, and I like needing to take those precautions. The difference would be that more and more people could waste less time on social interaction with people they may need help from, and less resources on spell slots and abilities that are migrated further towards irrelevance. Sounds like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me.
>>and Item loss was even worse back then.. you could have some jerk use a spell and obliterate your armor and once it reached a certain point you couldn't even repair it
I miss this. Aether lance when fighting a warrior mage... man I dreaded those battles. Had to think twice before getting handsy with the crossbow.
>>I am not a GM so I can't look up specifics, but I don't need to be to see the long history of posts like the OP's that show a pattern of frustration and dislike for this part of the game. It is more ridiculous to try to claim that people are okay with it. They tolerate it. they work around it. no one likes it, and if it went away, you would by far be in the minority if you actually mourned its loss.
Again, I think you're making claims based on your own anecdotal evidence. I refuse to accept an argument of sophistry. Item risk is relevant and desired by me, and I do not think I am the only one. I think whether or not it's the majority of the player base remains to be seen, and your claim is an opinion, not a fact. It deserves this disclaimer as a result.
>>You worry too much about my exaggerations while making your own. You act like graverobbing and item loss have a positive impact upon the game.. even though this topic and others like it repeatedly come up every time it happens. Clearly the people it happen to are not enjoying it.
Item loss to me has a positive impact on the game, and how I perceive my character, and death, and the text existential crisis there-in. Not everyone it happens to posts on the boards for your Nate Silver-esque statistical analysis.
>>Death is disproportionately hard in DR. For no real reason.. except that it was originally made in a time when that was how they made games. Not because it was balanced, or was even well thought out. And it has been moving away from that for 20 years.
The first sentence in the above is laughably untrue, and games are still made this way today.
>>Name a game that essentially tosses an hour worth of gaming time down the drain for one mistake. You are meant to die in DR. It is part of the game. So making it as harsh as it is... does a disservice to the player and the game. There are also better ways to 'add teeth to death' than destroying items that people work years to get. Higher repair costs, full repairs, healing only to a bare minimum to survive, exp penalties afterwards, etc. Any of those things can add depth to death without it screwing over the player to the point they don't want to play anymore.
Dwarf Fortress, Gnomaria, RimWorld, NetHack, Minecraft, any Rogue-like, any game ever with a hardcore mode, any gave you don't save in after a half hour's time where progress must be saved. It all depends on its design intent.
I prefer the harsh environment. This is a personal preference. I have very little desire to budge further on the issue after 2 decades of deference out of sympathy to the unprepared.
GAMERGIRL151
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 03:18 AM CST
Honestly, I think that DEPART should just be given a simple confirmation as has already been suggested. Nothing big and large just an "Are you sure you want to DEPART <OPTION> please enter again in 20 seconds to confirm". That would fix the original issue, and we can always revisit this discussion RE:Grave Robbing later. Also, I'm not sure if most people know that if you're idle while dead (disconnected, etc) and auto-depart, it already automatically picks an option that takes your items with you (assuming you have enough favors.)
I'm not a fan of removing Grave Robbing or graves entirely, seeing as favors are easy to come by for non-Necromancers (and Necros have their own mechanics also). We've already seen massive additions to protections for items and item loss. Lowering the risk of item loss even further would likely cause even more risky AFK scripting behavior. We've already seen huge changes in behavior from removing walking and other things.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
I'm not a fan of removing Grave Robbing or graves entirely, seeing as favors are easy to come by for non-Necromancers (and Necros have their own mechanics also). We've already seen massive additions to protections for items and item loss. Lowering the risk of item loss even further would likely cause even more risky AFK scripting behavior. We've already seen huge changes in behavior from removing walking and other things.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
SYRAKEN
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 03:25 AM CST
My stance is that this is a game with thievery and death. If we could raid your vault and your bank we would. To safeguard yourself from highway men you may train yourself to be stronger. You can even get a paladin to protect your gear from being robbed (they did that right, can't remember). Perhaps there can be a new item in the SIMU shop, or purchasable from the Paladin guild for OODLES of cash, that'll ward your graves upon death to prevent it from being robbed. Or when you put DEPART instead of departing right away it will ask you if you are sure, and list the other options as well, as a safe guard. Could give it a toggle like (depart warning on off), to skip the message and auto depart when you type it. I like that there is a chance that if persons and people had a mind to do to kill me and prevent me from getting back to my grave long enough to take everything i have off of me. I like this because there are more people who would prevent that than promote it, adding to the fun of unlawful few vs the lawful many. I got a really big gem (by my measure) stolen from my open container recently. I was mad for a second because the container was open and i could of put it somewhere safe. If I don't want my things taken I will put it somewhere safe I will not have it in a place where it can be lost and stolen.
SHAWN255
Re: War and grave robbers
01/12/2016 04:05 AM CST
>>I find item risk to be satisfactory.
Others don't. More don't than do. It is called counting. It isn't just an opinion.
>>I was graverobbed by Jondong of my halberd with the cambrinth inlaid stock after a short battle and an exchange of mockeries. I was forced to eat crow, and appeal to his nostalgia for a time in gryphons when we hunted rooms apart. Yep, enjoyed it.
This could easily still happen, except it would be consensual.
>>The avenues to mitigate this from an in character perspective mechanically speaking are VAST.
And the ways the system doesn't always work are VAST.
>>The squeaky wheel gets the oil.
duh? (I will also take this to mean you acknowledge that there are a lot of complaints about this. Thanks!)
>>I am craving these experiences.
And the game is moving away from them because more people don't enjoy them. I can't even imagine the GMs like hearing about it and they have the records to look it up. If any are reading this.. don't suppose you can do a search of how many times people have requested help in regards to item loss or graverobbing?? Just think about the things they could be doing instead of dealing with that?
>>Please, tell me more about how I think and feel.
Seeing as the game has changed dramatically over the past 20 years away from what you claim to enjoy... you have proven my point for me. You are still here playing and have 4 accounts. If all the other changes didn't make you quit, I seriously doubt that this one will be the final straw. Oh noes! I can't lose items if I make a mistake! THE HORRRRRROR!!!!!! GG!!! Even claiming that is so beyond dramatic it is just silly.
>>The difference would be that more and more people could waste less time on social interaction with people they may need help from, and less resources on spell slots and abilities that are migrated further towards irrelevance.
You mean.. the difference would be that more and more people could interact because they want to? and they could be positive interactions that maybe bring the society together instead of drive wedges? You could even set up RP between people to create these situations... that would then be RP'd out (with the big difference being that they would be consensual to begin with). And less resources on spell slots? I seriously doubt any paladin is going to be that bummed over a spell slot freeing up (we already have at least one commenting on that in this thread, so I won't bother to speak for them..) and maybe instead of spells that have incredibly niche roles, they could get better spells? But meh, that is another topic.
>>I miss this. Aether lance
This is where I think it is getting pointless to respond. You miss a guild having the ability to completely and permanently destroy your items? It makes me question if you are a masochist or just trolling.
>>games are still made this way today.
Name the commercially successful games that are made this way today that come even close to how DR is. Your best example would be Dark Souls, and it is no where near as punishing.
None of the games you mentioned even come close. They have elements of DR's consequences, but they don't have all of them, nor do you invest anywhere near as much time into getting the items as you do in DR.
Minecraft for example.. I can max out the best gear in a few hours, and even if I die and lose it all, it is VERY easy at that point to recover. You can also immediately boot anyone that is overtly griefing.
There is a huge difference between not saving and losing a half hour time, and having that time taken away from you, along with your item permanently. It would be like the game deleting the save file. The closest I can think of is like Pillars of Eternity's Iron Mode that only allows a save when you exit the game, and if the party dies, its game over. But the INSANELY huge difference is scope of game. In none of them are you expected to play for very long. None of them expect you to be invested into your character like you are in DR. Or spend years working on customizing your items and getting rare mats and then alterations. The scope and the time invested are hugely different, and that matters.
And time says you are on the wrong side of this. The game has consistently moved away from the harsh game you desire.
Others don't. More don't than do. It is called counting. It isn't just an opinion.
>>I was graverobbed by Jondong of my halberd with the cambrinth inlaid stock after a short battle and an exchange of mockeries. I was forced to eat crow, and appeal to his nostalgia for a time in gryphons when we hunted rooms apart. Yep, enjoyed it.
This could easily still happen, except it would be consensual.
>>The avenues to mitigate this from an in character perspective mechanically speaking are VAST.
And the ways the system doesn't always work are VAST.
>>The squeaky wheel gets the oil.
duh? (I will also take this to mean you acknowledge that there are a lot of complaints about this. Thanks!)
>>I am craving these experiences.
And the game is moving away from them because more people don't enjoy them. I can't even imagine the GMs like hearing about it and they have the records to look it up. If any are reading this.. don't suppose you can do a search of how many times people have requested help in regards to item loss or graverobbing?? Just think about the things they could be doing instead of dealing with that?
>>Please, tell me more about how I think and feel.
Seeing as the game has changed dramatically over the past 20 years away from what you claim to enjoy... you have proven my point for me. You are still here playing and have 4 accounts. If all the other changes didn't make you quit, I seriously doubt that this one will be the final straw. Oh noes! I can't lose items if I make a mistake! THE HORRRRRROR!!!!!! GG!!! Even claiming that is so beyond dramatic it is just silly.
>>The difference would be that more and more people could waste less time on social interaction with people they may need help from, and less resources on spell slots and abilities that are migrated further towards irrelevance.
You mean.. the difference would be that more and more people could interact because they want to? and they could be positive interactions that maybe bring the society together instead of drive wedges? You could even set up RP between people to create these situations... that would then be RP'd out (with the big difference being that they would be consensual to begin with). And less resources on spell slots? I seriously doubt any paladin is going to be that bummed over a spell slot freeing up (we already have at least one commenting on that in this thread, so I won't bother to speak for them..) and maybe instead of spells that have incredibly niche roles, they could get better spells? But meh, that is another topic.
>>I miss this. Aether lance
This is where I think it is getting pointless to respond. You miss a guild having the ability to completely and permanently destroy your items? It makes me question if you are a masochist or just trolling.
>>games are still made this way today.
Name the commercially successful games that are made this way today that come even close to how DR is. Your best example would be Dark Souls, and it is no where near as punishing.
None of the games you mentioned even come close. They have elements of DR's consequences, but they don't have all of them, nor do you invest anywhere near as much time into getting the items as you do in DR.
Minecraft for example.. I can max out the best gear in a few hours, and even if I die and lose it all, it is VERY easy at that point to recover. You can also immediately boot anyone that is overtly griefing.
There is a huge difference between not saving and losing a half hour time, and having that time taken away from you, along with your item permanently. It would be like the game deleting the save file. The closest I can think of is like Pillars of Eternity's Iron Mode that only allows a save when you exit the game, and if the party dies, its game over. But the INSANELY huge difference is scope of game. In none of them are you expected to play for very long. None of them expect you to be invested into your character like you are in DR. Or spend years working on customizing your items and getting rare mats and then alterations. The scope and the time invested are hugely different, and that matters.
And time says you are on the wrong side of this. The game has consistently moved away from the harsh game you desire.
