>> I have now been told by three separate people that a certain merchant at HE Fest has removed my mark from the items they had altered.

Was it an alterer explicitly saying he/she would, or an oversight?

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

I personally would rather be given the option of having a makers mark kept when an alteration is done. I always ask to have anything crafted for me to be left unmarked but the crafters have often time made little mistakes and I have some rate material weapons that are marked.

I dislike advertising for one. Also the owner of the weapon should be the one with the final say aince they are the person who paid for the item and alterations often make an item some masterpiece or ancient relic and being forced to keep an advertisment kind of spoiles the effect.

>>alterations often make an item some ... ancient relic

This is actually not something allowed in alterations either. We can't and wouldn't want to stop anyone from making up whatever story they wanted to with their item, but the alteration process is literally that -- an IC merchant working with the character to change what an existing item looks like. Getting your item's appearance altered is an IC experience and does not change its IC origins, though many times you might be able to handwave that to an extent as long as nobody saw you getting the alteration done.

On both an IC and OOC level, alterers can't make your item be ancient, or really do any design that explicitly states how old the item is or what its origins are in its description, though. There is no way for a person to just look at an item and say how old it is, just what it currently looks like, so putting that information into an alteration breaks the portion of the alteration rules that state we do not make item descriptions impart knowledge beyond what someone could reasonably get just by looking at the item.

You can't tell even by looking really closely at my big green water pitcher that it was made in 1961 in the ceramics workshop behind a house in rural Georgia. You can tell that the glaze seems a little thin on one edge, that it's green and ceramic, and that there are initials on its bottom that were etched in but are kind of hard to read. When I look at your massive doomsword with seven-pointed star designs upon its pommel, I can't tell if it really is Imperial-age or if it just has really elaborate stars.

As for maker's marks themselves, we really do appreciate the feedback, and I can completely understand why people would want the option to have marks removed, but at this time this portion of the alteration policy stands and is not up for review

-Persida

Well what happened to the acid bath idea that would allow a craft person to remove their own maker marks?

It might be prudent to update Elantipedia with some clarification on items with a maker's mark being altered. On two separate pages:

https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Alteration#Maker.27s_Marks

https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Maker's_mark

It clearly indicates: "If a mark is placed on a piece of equipment, it must be found in some form in the final alteration, even only in the READ. This is true even if the marker is present to waive the restriction."

However, when I asked about having the mark on my shield moved exclusively to the READ to free up character space in the LOOK, I was told by an assistant that the mark must be somewhere in the LOOK.

- Anuind Lyndon

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When naming your holy weapon consider the following: Everyone has a Holy Avenger or a Divine Vengeance. Why not go with something your foes will never accept the shame of being smote by, such as "The Fuzzy Kitten"

The way to do this properly is instead of talking about how the dagger "looks old", talk about how it's tarnished, dulled in places, has many scratches and the occasional nick, and has a hilt that appears to have been repaired at some point but is slightly loose again.

- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -

>However, when I asked about having the mark on my shield moved exclusively to the READ to free up character space in the LOOK, I was told by an assistant that the mark must be somewhere in the LOOK.<

Yeah this bugs me too. Why not change alterations to have a tag at the end that says something like:

>Look Tev's Lanival butt-stabbing dagger
Some description befitting a lanival butt-stabber. You also notice a mark.

>inspect mark
Here you see the mark description.


This would free-up space for the alteration 'look' itself.

--Just a Squire

Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."

>>Maker's marks in the READ instead of the LOOK?

Our ability to fiddle with the text of a maker's mark during alterations is limited in that we must ensure that it is still obviously a maker's mark and still obviously the mark of the actual maker. Moving the mark to the READ is not allowable for a few reasons, but one of these is that it makes it less obviously a maker's mark since the LOOK is where the mark goes when a crafter stamps the item they have made.

Confusion on this is likely a holdover from when we first started allowing alterations to tweak maker's marks at all, but I can say with certainty that LOOK-only placement for maker's marks is the current standard to which GMs are held.


>>Elanthipedia said (thing) was okay for an alteration, but the alteration helper said differently.

Elanthipedia is updated mostly by players, and at times there may be some inconsistencies or mistakes that pop up there. Our contributing players are amazing and, for the most part, entries there are equally amazingly accurate, but nobody is perfect.

Same goes for alteration helpers! If you find a conflict between what you think is okay because of a source you can point to and what the helper is telling you, just ask the alterer when you get to see them. Always still take the helper's input into account and I'd also strongly suggest that you work up a version based off of it so that if the alterer says no you have that version at the ready. There is no harm at all in asking, though, especially if there is a point of possible confusion involved.


>>IC vs OOC alterations: Is it 'objectively' ICly still treated as existing item A being changed to look differently if the alteration was done by an OOC entity, like a GM's normal GM persona via emails or something instead of an actual alterer character.

Remember when I said handwaving before? Obviously if there is no IC entity involved in the changing of how something looks, nobody IG would or could be the wiser as to what that item was or where it came from since there is literally no 'objective' IC explanation for it. The alteration process has no influence on what you decide ICly to say about where your item came from or how it came to look like it does. Or well, let me rephrase that -- anyone can say anything about their item and its origins.

If you've been seen by a room full of people working with Kulivas and come back out with an item like looks like X, chances are at least some of them won't believe that item X was given to you in that exact condition by your great-great whoever no matter what you say in game about it. If nobody ICly sees anything, not even an actual IC alterer who could theoretically wander by and recognize their own work? Well, the distinction largely becomes moot. That still doesn't mean anyone will necessarily believe you if you say that Lanival gave it to you, though ;)

None of that has anything to do with actual alteration rule content, just to clarify. That is all RP information. No alteration rules would change no matter if you work with the alterer ICly, or a GM alters something OOCly. This is also a tangent that doesn't really fit in this forums category or thread topic much at all, so if anyone has more questions in this vein, please make a spin off thread in a more appropriate area and I'll follow up over there!


>>Well what happened to the acid bath idea that would allow a craft person to remove their own maker marks?

While there has been interest expressed by staff in something like this as well, it hasn't yet made it to the stage of things where I could comment on it. Since I don't work on crafting systems, anything not ready for release for one of them isn't something I'd feel comfortable talking about in a speculative sense. I defer to Kodius on this one :)


>>Maker's marks as tags?

At this time, no, nothing like that would be done. TEVESHSZAT is correct that if we ever did do something like that, it would almost assuredly make the tag-marked items count as two items in a person's inventory, vaults, etc. I can't see it having the function you're asking for without that coming into play due to how various systems (and the parser) work.


-Persida

For most pages, a cave monkey even without training could easily edit them. For example, let's say you wanted to edit the alteration page's section on maker's marks. You can go to that area of the page and click edit on just that section. http://imgur.com/UKMFmSi
It opens up to edit just that little bit. If you're familiar with any sort of text document editor, it's about the same. http://imgur.com/esjn27G

Now, the more complex things like our templates, tables and anything of that nature? Sure, I understand why you'd want to shy away from that, fair enough. We've gone out of our way to make pages easy to edit for users with no wiki knowledge, and even have forms with a nice graphic interface that people can put data into. Nobody should use their lack of technical skills as an excuse. It's 2015, and we're managing to browse these intuitive and easy to navigate forums.

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Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

>>What I find amazing about this entire conversation is that at one time, players wanted the makers mark on their items to prove the crafter. It was like being able to say you commissioned the greatest blade ever because it was made by <xyz>. This gave it a little cred if you ever wanted to sell it or hand it down to someone.

This was when knowing how to abuse bugs in the forging system made better weapons than having skill. There is no one crafter that can make a broadsword better than any other crafter with the appropriate skill now.

Regardless of what they meant in the past, now a maker's mark just eats up valuable alteration real estate. I wish they'd show up in Analyze rather than Examine. (Or be automatically obliterated during any alteration.)

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Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html

>However, I don't share that level of interest or dedication with contributing

It's quite literally 2 clicks. If you can play DR you are smart and literate enough to edit the wiki. Click. Type. Save.

It's 2015, and we're managing to browse these intuitive and easy to navigate forums.

I see what you did there....

>>Bennettj13: No matter how easy, some of us don't care.

That's fine, but if you "don't care" enough to edit the wiki, then don't complain about the content.

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Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html

>>...but at this time this portion of the alteration policy stands and is not up for review

I hope your policy on that policy can be put up for review.

Seriously though, I hate maker's marks. Get off my pretty weapon.

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>befriend clear all
You are now friendless.

>If you want it off your pretty weapon.. you could always take the time to level up the skill to make it yourself and then you can feel free to leave off the mark. It is the beauty of this game ;)

It's not quite practical to 'just level up' 1000 ranks of forging.

It's also not particularly practical to tell someone to 'just make it again' out of Senci, Damite, or Tyrium, unless you have a stock sitting around you'd like to share.

>And no one said it would be easy. Hence why makers marks should be valued. Those people put the time into being able to make the weapon. If they hadnt you wouldnt have it to begin with.<

This.

I won't even make a weapon or armor without my mark on it anymore. One time I didn't notice someone ask me to not mark an item and marked it. Because I want my customers to get what they wanted, I ended up paying over 1k in materials so I could remake the item for them, unmarked. So yeah, if you don't want my mark, go somewhere else.

--Just a Squire

Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."

>>Go get me some then. Just snap your fingers, it's easy right? I mean, Senci is only going for, what, 10k per boulder now?

I have senci if you would like to buy some. :)

>>Neither is building an escalator to the moon. Practical, on the other hand...

It is very practical in DR to gain skills. It really doesn't even take that long. You are exaggerating because it isn't something you wish to do. That isn't the crafter's problem.

>>blah blah blah cool story bro garbage

access to different ores... applies to DR. smithing techniques.. applies to DR. superior blades with more skills.. applies to DR. etc etc etc etc.

While part of it is import/export standards, Products get marked because companies and crafters want people to know who makes an item so that they can get more business. It really isn't that hard to understand. And it also applies to DR.

Your entire argument boils down to... You are too lazy to become a good smith yourself, yet you want to complain about what those that have invested the time into crafting do with the weapons/items they create.

>>For you. For me, I don't care.

And this is where I just don't have any sympathy for you. Train the skills or get used to having your products marked. People like you, and your QQ over a very IC thing, are why the policy should never change and the time should never be wasted to implement any way to remove maker's marks.

I want people to get marked every time I cast a spell on them. I worked hard for those ranks!

Any time I see a post compare Real Life to DragonRealms I seriously wonder about the sanity of our playerbase.

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Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html

>>I want people to get marked every time I cast a spell on them. I worked hard for those ranks!

apples and oranges.

>>Any time I see a post compare Real Life to DragonRealms I seriously wonder about the sanity of our playerbase.

Seeing as Kodius works hard to make crafting as realistic as possible... and countless GMs since the game was on GEnie have posted comparisons to RL to justify systems and/or explain why xyz works... any time I see a post questioning/mocking someone comparing RL to DR... I just think they are sadly uninformed and pity them.