Previous
>In real life even garbage goods from china get marked.
And in real life I can elect to remove that mark from goods coming from China, Siam, Timbucktu, Kathmandu, or anywhere else if I so desire. In Elanthia however, I can't, which is a fairly common complaint in this thread.
>No one said it would be easy. Hence why makers marks should be valued. Those people put the time into being able to make the weapon. If they hadnt you wouldnt have it to begin with. Part of the history of an item should be its maker. So incorporate it into the design.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but the opinions of you, me, or anyone else, on how other players should view having a maker's mark on their items is inconsequential. The fact of the matter is it would be nice to have some means to remove, reposition, or otherwise modify the location of a mark on an item so it doesn't consume character space in the LOOK. At this point most simple marks consume roughly 40 to 50 characters and it already hamstrings peoples designs. Not that I expect their release anytime soon, however, advanced and custom marks are almost assured to take up quite a bit more space, which will drastically reduce the freedom players have to elaborate in their alterations.
- Anuind Lyndon
When naming your holy weapon consider the following: Everyone has a Holy Avenger or a Divine Vengeance. Why not go with something your foes will never accept the shame of being smote by, such as "The Fuzzy Kitten"
IAMTHEWALRUS
CARAAMON
Re: Alterations and Maker's Marks: Redux ::Thread Over::
11/07/2015 06:07 PM CST
I don't know how much it's worth, but I have no objection to people being able to remove maker's marks in an alteration. I suspect most crafters wouldn't.
Weapons for Sale:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/User:CARAAMON#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Weapons for Sale:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/User:CARAAMON#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
HEXEDBYTHENET
Re: Alterations and Maker's Marks: Redux ::Thread Over::
11/07/2015 06:10 PM CST
I like my mark. I like using my mark. It's a source of pride for me. That said, I see no reason why having some sort of acid product that would allow a crafter to remove their own mark would be a bad thing.
In fact, I can see it as a very good thing. Sell it for a decent price, it is dangerous acid after all. Then the crafter could even charge the client more to use it, if they desire. And call it done.
My .02 on the matter.
The Kasto mimic abruptly solidifies, looking very much like Kasto.
>
You say, "What a handsome fellow you are!"
In fact, I can see it as a very good thing. Sell it for a decent price, it is dangerous acid after all. Then the crafter could even charge the client more to use it, if they desire. And call it done.
My .02 on the matter.
The Kasto mimic abruptly solidifies, looking very much like Kasto.
>
You say, "What a handsome fellow you are!"
ISHARON
Re: Alterations and Maker's Marks: Redux
11/07/2015 06:11 PM CST
Personally, I have never come so close to the 500-character limit where the maker's mark became an issue. Nor have I had difficulty working the mark into my design. (Of course, all of the marks I've used are simple marks, not the complex images seen in old grandfathered marks.)
That being said, perhaps there could be a hidden flag on crafted items that says whether the crafter is OK with having his mark removed during an alteration.
I don't know how feasible such a system would be or if it would have a good ROI, but it would do away with issues like needing special potions or needing to get in touch with the crafter (either beforehand to remove the mark or during the alteration session).
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
That being said, perhaps there could be a hidden flag on crafted items that says whether the crafter is OK with having his mark removed during an alteration.
I don't know how feasible such a system would be or if it would have a good ROI, but it would do away with issues like needing special potions or needing to get in touch with the crafter (either beforehand to remove the mark or during the alteration session).
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
SHAWN255
Re: Alterations and Maker's Marks: Redux ::Thread Over::
11/07/2015 06:12 PM CST
>>And in real life I can elect to remove that mark from goods coming from China, Siam, Timbucktu, Kathmandu, or anywhere else if I so desire. In Elanthia however, I can't, which is a fairly common complaint in this thread.
No you can't. not without damaging the item. and if it is a collectible or something rare, the mark being removed would just lower its value.
>> the rest
500 characters in a LOOK as a general rule.. ~50 characters for the mark.. 10% hamstrings a design? Holy jebus what are you barfing onto an item? I think the real problem at that point is that you need a proof-reader for your design more than anything else.
From my experience GMs will work with you, especially if you try to incorporate the mark into the design. You can even modify it so that it takes up less space. A "M.C." marks the haft. That is 23 characters. So that is only 5% of the design.
I get the concerns about advanced marks... and that is worth a discussion.. but they aren't implemented yet, and frankly the 'problems' with altering marked items currently is highly exaggerated.
I would love to see some of the items that have been 'ruined' with a makers mark. What is the design you wanted? vs what the GM would do? (this is a general request for anyone that feels their items are spoiled by a mark)
LENNONJON
Re: Alterations and Maker's Marks: Redux ::Thread Over::
11/07/2015 06:16 PM CST
>I don't know how much it's worth, but I have no objection to people being able to remove maker's marks in an alteration. I suspect most crafters wouldn't.<
Agreed, but it just needs to be consistent. Or there needs to be certain merchants who are known to buff out the marks.
I also wouldn't be against a system that allowed thieves with sufficient forging skill to be able to scratch/buff out the marks (akin to serial numbers). Make it something like if you are a complete hack with no skill you see something like "deep scratches" on the item. But if you have high skill there's no remnant.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
Agreed, but it just needs to be consistent. Or there needs to be certain merchants who are known to buff out the marks.
I also wouldn't be against a system that allowed thieves with sufficient forging skill to be able to scratch/buff out the marks (akin to serial numbers). Make it something like if you are a complete hack with no skill you see something like "deep scratches" on the item. But if you have high skill there's no remnant.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
SHAWN255
Re: Alterations and Maker's Marks: Redux ::Thread Over::
11/07/2015 06:23 PM CST
I like the idea of thieves getting an ability to remove marks. That would be neat and IC.
THAYET
Re: Alterations and Maker's Marks: Redux ::Thread Over::
11/07/2015 06:38 PM CST
Crafter identification and marks should honestly probably be handwaved and moved to ANALYZE.
>> 500 characters in a LOOK as a general rule.. ~50 characters for the mark.. 10% hamstrings a design? Holy jebus what are you barfing onto an item? I think the real problem at that point is that you need a proof-reader for your design more than anything else.
Ehh this is often true but at the same time weapons and armor can be incredibly complex objects with many different parts and types of embellishment, to the point that I can totally see how you'd run up against the limit.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
>> 500 characters in a LOOK as a general rule.. ~50 characters for the mark.. 10% hamstrings a design? Holy jebus what are you barfing onto an item? I think the real problem at that point is that you need a proof-reader for your design more than anything else.
Ehh this is often true but at the same time weapons and armor can be incredibly complex objects with many different parts and types of embellishment, to the point that I can totally see how you'd run up against the limit.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
DINERGRRL
Re: Alterations and Maker's Marks: Redux ::Thread Over::
11/07/2015 07:12 PM CST
>I like my mark. I like using my mark. It's a source of pride for me. That said, I see no reason why having some sort of acid product that would allow a crafter to remove their own mark would be a bad thing.
Completely agree. I'd be fine with some sort of acid bath or whatever, so long as the mark was -only- removable by the crafter who marked the item in question.
Completely agree. I'd be fine with some sort of acid bath or whatever, so long as the mark was -only- removable by the crafter who marked the item in question.
BADGOPHER
Re: Alterations and Maker's Marks: Redux ::Thread Over::
11/07/2015 07:35 PM CST
>It is very practical in DR to gain skills. It really doesn't even take that long.
LoLWut?
>No you can't {remove marks in real life}. not without damaging the item.
LoLWut?
>and if it is a collectible or something rare, the mark being removed would just lower its value.
Weapons in DR are not collectibles. They are use items. If you want to talk about collectible items, we need to shift the entire focus of the conversation, because you don't USE COLLECTIBLE WEAPONS.
>I like my mark. I like using my mark. It's a source of pride for me. That said, I see no reason why having some sort of acid product that would allow a crafter to remove their own mark would be a bad thing.
I guess I don't understand why it needs to be limited to 'the original crafter'. It's a blatant power play. To me, either I have bought something from you, and our entire business deal is concluded at that point, or I have leased something from you, and it's not actually mine at all.
If it's the former, I should have full control over my items, to modify as I wish. If it's the latter, then you should pay me advertising residuals since I'm not clear to use the product without your approval.
Furthermore, with a system like this, if the original crafter quits, you're out of luck entirely.
Want me to care about marks? Make it give a +to durability, or some actual benefit to me.
LoLWut?
>No you can't {remove marks in real life}. not without damaging the item.
LoLWut?
>and if it is a collectible or something rare, the mark being removed would just lower its value.
Weapons in DR are not collectibles. They are use items. If you want to talk about collectible items, we need to shift the entire focus of the conversation, because you don't USE COLLECTIBLE WEAPONS.
>I like my mark. I like using my mark. It's a source of pride for me. That said, I see no reason why having some sort of acid product that would allow a crafter to remove their own mark would be a bad thing.
I guess I don't understand why it needs to be limited to 'the original crafter'. It's a blatant power play. To me, either I have bought something from you, and our entire business deal is concluded at that point, or I have leased something from you, and it's not actually mine at all.
If it's the former, I should have full control over my items, to modify as I wish. If it's the latter, then you should pay me advertising residuals since I'm not clear to use the product without your approval.
Furthermore, with a system like this, if the original crafter quits, you're out of luck entirely.
Want me to care about marks? Make it give a +to durability, or some actual benefit to me.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Alterations and Maker's Marks: Redux ::Thread Over::
11/07/2015 07:55 PM CST
There is, if nothing else, simply the option to not do business with a crafter that insists on marking items. Or offering the crafter a tempting premium for unmarked goods.
I'm personally indifferent to mark removal, but I'm also hesitant to push for something automated when there's already a PC-drivable solution to the problem.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
I'm personally indifferent to mark removal, but I'm also hesitant to push for something automated when there's already a PC-drivable solution to the problem.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
HEXEDBYTHENET
Re: Alterations and Maker's Marks: Redux ::Thread Over::
11/07/2015 08:01 PM CST
>I guess I don't understand why it needs to be limited to 'the original crafter'.
Because allowing just anyone to remove a mark would circumvent the crafter's wishes. Yes, you bought something from me. I mark all things I make or charge extra if someone wants it "unmarked" because that's just how I roll. It's my choice as the one who is doing the work.
The whole mark discussion is a perfect example of caveat emptor. You don't want something marked, don't buy something marked.
The only way I could see allowing just anyone to unmark things is if it was made a criminal action or at the very least, the crafter was notified somehow of the deed. Both of which would be hard to make a reasonable excuse for doing in the game, thus further reinforcing that only the crafter should be able to remove their own mark.
There really doesn't have to be a bonus to the user to have marked items, the system doesn't exist for the user. It exists for the maker. As such, it's the maker's choice what he does with the items he makes. Regardless who buys it. End of story.
The Kasto mimic abruptly solidifies, looking very much like Kasto.
>
You say, "What a handsome fellow you are!"
Because allowing just anyone to remove a mark would circumvent the crafter's wishes. Yes, you bought something from me. I mark all things I make or charge extra if someone wants it "unmarked" because that's just how I roll. It's my choice as the one who is doing the work.
The whole mark discussion is a perfect example of caveat emptor. You don't want something marked, don't buy something marked.
The only way I could see allowing just anyone to unmark things is if it was made a criminal action or at the very least, the crafter was notified somehow of the deed. Both of which would be hard to make a reasonable excuse for doing in the game, thus further reinforcing that only the crafter should be able to remove their own mark.
There really doesn't have to be a bonus to the user to have marked items, the system doesn't exist for the user. It exists for the maker. As such, it's the maker's choice what he does with the items he makes. Regardless who buys it. End of story.
The Kasto mimic abruptly solidifies, looking very much like Kasto.
>
You say, "What a handsome fellow you are!"
SHAWN255
Re: Alterations and Maker's Marks: Redux ::Thread Over::
11/07/2015 08:10 PM CST
>>LoLWut
in other words you don't have a real reply.
>>Weapons in DR are not collectibles
Blatantly wrong. They are. Their value can change. the rarer the mats used to make it get, the more expensive they are. Senci is a great example of this.
Just because something has value as a collectible, doesn't mean it can't be useful at the same time.
>>it's a blatant power play.
duh! The crafter should get something for bothering to level up those skills. This really isn't a hard concept.. nor some hidden agenda. Adding in additional ways crafters can make money isn't a bad thing. You buy a weapon and it not only will eventually pay itself off, but start making you far more money, yet the crafter only gets that initial payment.. and sadly people barely want to pay crafters as it is.
Your entire complaint comes down to.. you want someone else to do all the hard work, and you want to be able to gain all the benefit without any negatives... and in the grand scheme of things a maker's mark is an incredibly trivial 'negative'.
Give a concrete, non-theory based, example of an item you attempted to get altered and were turned down over or had to include the mark. Item before alteration, ideal alteration, and alteration you had to accept with the horrible character stealing mark.
If it hasn't even happened, then you are just complaining for no reason.
in other words you don't have a real reply.
>>Weapons in DR are not collectibles
Blatantly wrong. They are. Their value can change. the rarer the mats used to make it get, the more expensive they are. Senci is a great example of this.
Just because something has value as a collectible, doesn't mean it can't be useful at the same time.
>>it's a blatant power play.
duh! The crafter should get something for bothering to level up those skills. This really isn't a hard concept.. nor some hidden agenda. Adding in additional ways crafters can make money isn't a bad thing. You buy a weapon and it not only will eventually pay itself off, but start making you far more money, yet the crafter only gets that initial payment.. and sadly people barely want to pay crafters as it is.
Your entire complaint comes down to.. you want someone else to do all the hard work, and you want to be able to gain all the benefit without any negatives... and in the grand scheme of things a maker's mark is an incredibly trivial 'negative'.
Give a concrete, non-theory based, example of an item you attempted to get altered and were turned down over or had to include the mark. Item before alteration, ideal alteration, and alteration you had to accept with the horrible character stealing mark.
If it hasn't even happened, then you are just complaining for no reason.
IAMTHEWALRUS
Re: Alterations and Maker's Marks: Redux ::Thread Over::
11/07/2015 08:38 PM CST
>if it is a collectible or something rare, the mark being removed would just lower its value.
I can't speak to others feelings on this, but I expect quite a few players, like myself, would happily trade the ability to remove a maker's mark from a crafted item in exchange for a reduction in its appraisal cost. I also find it unlikely that one of my damite heater shields that has either been made without my stamping it, or had it removed, is going to reduce the value of it.
>500 characters in a LOOK as a general rule.. ~50 characters for the mark.. 10% hamstrings a design? Holy jebus what are you barfing onto an item? I think the real problem at that point is that you need a proof-reader for your design more than anything else. and frankly the 'problems' with altering marked items currently is highly exaggerated.
Once again an inconsequential, and quite frankly, flippantly discourteous opinion. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you prefer an austere description on your altered items that is certainly your prerogative. Others who enjoy a more robust and elaborate look should ideally be afforded a means to alter their equipment without having to condense their description to make an allowance for 50 characters or 5.
>I would love to see some of the items that have been 'ruined' with a makers mark. What is the design you wanted? vs what the GM would do? (this is a general request for anyone that feels their items are spoiled by a mark)
I don't recall anyone indicating their alteration was ruined by having a makers mark on it, rather that they simply didn't want a mark on the item and would like the option to remove or relocate it. Throughout the course of this thread you've seemed to be laboring under the misconception that the complaints are about something other than the ability to remove a maker's mark. Really, that's all the majority of us are asking for, your diatribes about everything else, while marginally entertaining, are superfluous.
>Completely agree. I'd be fine with some sort of acid bath or whatever, so long as the mark was -only- removable by the crafter who marked the item in question.
I'm on board with this, Caraamon, and Lennon.
- Anuind Lyndon
When naming your holy weapon consider the following: Everyone has a Holy Avenger or a Divine Vengeance. Why not go with something your foes will never accept the shame of being smote by, such as "The Fuzzy Kitten"
I can't speak to others feelings on this, but I expect quite a few players, like myself, would happily trade the ability to remove a maker's mark from a crafted item in exchange for a reduction in its appraisal cost. I also find it unlikely that one of my damite heater shields that has either been made without my stamping it, or had it removed, is going to reduce the value of it.
>500 characters in a LOOK as a general rule.. ~50 characters for the mark.. 10% hamstrings a design? Holy jebus what are you barfing onto an item? I think the real problem at that point is that you need a proof-reader for your design more than anything else. and frankly the 'problems' with altering marked items currently is highly exaggerated.
Once again an inconsequential, and quite frankly, flippantly discourteous opinion. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you prefer an austere description on your altered items that is certainly your prerogative. Others who enjoy a more robust and elaborate look should ideally be afforded a means to alter their equipment without having to condense their description to make an allowance for 50 characters or 5.
>I would love to see some of the items that have been 'ruined' with a makers mark. What is the design you wanted? vs what the GM would do? (this is a general request for anyone that feels their items are spoiled by a mark)
I don't recall anyone indicating their alteration was ruined by having a makers mark on it, rather that they simply didn't want a mark on the item and would like the option to remove or relocate it. Throughout the course of this thread you've seemed to be laboring under the misconception that the complaints are about something other than the ability to remove a maker's mark. Really, that's all the majority of us are asking for, your diatribes about everything else, while marginally entertaining, are superfluous.
>Completely agree. I'd be fine with some sort of acid bath or whatever, so long as the mark was -only- removable by the crafter who marked the item in question.
I'm on board with this, Caraamon, and Lennon.
- Anuind Lyndon
When naming your holy weapon consider the following: Everyone has a Holy Avenger or a Divine Vengeance. Why not go with something your foes will never accept the shame of being smote by, such as "The Fuzzy Kitten"
BADGOPHER
Re: Alterations and Maker's Marks: Redux ::Thread Over::
11/07/2015 08:44 PM CST
>LoLWut
>in other words you don't have a real reply.
Your original points were so obviously idiotic I couldn't reply to them. They were self mocking farce.
>Weapons in DR are not collectibles
>Blatantly wrong.
<sigh>. No. You are conflating the real world and game world. You said a mark makes something 'more valuable'. And it can. In the real world. But for it to have value from the mark, you also can't use it, because use diminishes value regardless of the item. Pre-used items (such as an old-west revolver) should be left worn and torn, but newly created items (such as a show-piece revolver with tons of gold inlay) are generally not used as to do so lowers the value.
In DR, items are not collectibles, in the sense that they are used. And in that the mark has no intrinsic value because we have concrete evidence of the actual statistics of the item in question (i.e. analyze, etc.).
I have yet to see a 'collectible' version of an item (not fluff, not worn, not furniture, not gear, simply a prop you hold with no other verbs) go for a higher price than an actual useful item. I have also yet to see someone buy a 'XYZ of tyrium' from auction and not melt it down for scrap metal regardless of the lore behind it (obviously this only applies to items which you can melt for rare metals).
>The crafter should get something...
The crafter got my money. That's what they're entitled to.
>you want someone else to do all the hard work, and you want to be able to gain all the benefit without any negatives
I paid them money. The person forging weaponry obviously enjoys either the action or the monetary reward. I'm not holding a gun to their head and forcing them to make me weapons, that they should have any intrinsic control over what I do with them after purchase.
Do you not understand how specialization works? Do you go home after a long hard day of (whatever) and proceed to grow your own produce, care for your own livestock, generate your own electricity, grow the wood to build your home, mine and forge the metal for your own tools?
>in other words you don't have a real reply.
Your original points were so obviously idiotic I couldn't reply to them. They were self mocking farce.
>Weapons in DR are not collectibles
>Blatantly wrong.
<sigh>. No. You are conflating the real world and game world. You said a mark makes something 'more valuable'. And it can. In the real world. But for it to have value from the mark, you also can't use it, because use diminishes value regardless of the item. Pre-used items (such as an old-west revolver) should be left worn and torn, but newly created items (such as a show-piece revolver with tons of gold inlay) are generally not used as to do so lowers the value.
In DR, items are not collectibles, in the sense that they are used. And in that the mark has no intrinsic value because we have concrete evidence of the actual statistics of the item in question (i.e. analyze, etc.).
I have yet to see a 'collectible' version of an item (not fluff, not worn, not furniture, not gear, simply a prop you hold with no other verbs) go for a higher price than an actual useful item. I have also yet to see someone buy a 'XYZ of tyrium' from auction and not melt it down for scrap metal regardless of the lore behind it (obviously this only applies to items which you can melt for rare metals).
>The crafter should get something...
The crafter got my money. That's what they're entitled to.
>you want someone else to do all the hard work, and you want to be able to gain all the benefit without any negatives
I paid them money. The person forging weaponry obviously enjoys either the action or the monetary reward. I'm not holding a gun to their head and forcing them to make me weapons, that they should have any intrinsic control over what I do with them after purchase.
Do you not understand how specialization works? Do you go home after a long hard day of (whatever) and proceed to grow your own produce, care for your own livestock, generate your own electricity, grow the wood to build your home, mine and forge the metal for your own tools?
VOLCANUS
Re: Alterations and Maker's Marks: Redux ::Thread Over::
11/07/2015 08:54 PM CST
> I like the idea of thieves getting an ability to remove marks. That would be neat and IC.
I'd rather see this as an alternative means of training thievery for everyone. You use your thievery ranks and an item sold in the thief shop (can be resold) - think thief version of trader tables* and fencing is their version of learning thievery from workorders.
* It would be nice to setup a contact. They open a shop, but can be chased away if losing a roll in the same room as a cop. Recall contact tells you where they are, because they roam.
DR-ANNWYL
Re: Alterations and Maker's Marks: Redux ::Thread Over::
11/07/2015 08:57 PM CST
Take the conflicts to the conflicts folder.
>>As for maker's marks themselves, we really do appreciate the feedback, and I can completely understand why people would want the option to have marks removed, but *at this time this portion of the alteration policy stands and is not up for review*
>>-Persida
As this has been asked and answered with any hope of a reasonable constructive discussion has gone out the window with the bickering, we're really done.
Further posts here will be removed and warnings will be issued.
Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor
If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.
>>As for maker's marks themselves, we really do appreciate the feedback, and I can completely understand why people would want the option to have marks removed, but *at this time this portion of the alteration policy stands and is not up for review*
>>-Persida
As this has been asked and answered with any hope of a reasonable constructive discussion has gone out the window with the bickering, we're really done.
Further posts here will be removed and warnings will be issued.
Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor
If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.
