I have a bit of a complaint. Perhaps it's more of a question. I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place for it, but decided to try here.

I know that one of the rules for alterations is that if the item is marked by the maker, then those initials have to be kept in the alteration design. Here's my dilemma: I recently had a tyrium lance crafted by Squanto. In crafting the item, he accidentally marked it. He has agreed to write me a note that says it is OK for an alterer to remove his mark, but when I asked about this today at the Guild Fest alteration session, I was told that if it's stamped, then the mark stays on, it's the rule. If the person who put the mark on the item agrees to have it taken off, then why can't it be taken off?

Generally this wouldn't bother me. However, in this case 1) I can't just go make another tyrium lance that is unmarked, and 2) my alteration design is for my holy weapon that I have waited a decade to do. The look of it ends with "shrouding the origin of the lance in mystery". The origin won't be very mysterious with S.L. at the end...

So GM's is there any way to change this rule? If the maker of the item gives the OK to remove their mark, can it please be allowed?

--Just a Squire

>>I think this is one of those "If we do it for you we have to do it for everyone" situations.

Given the circumstance, if a GM can easily verify that person X doesn't mind not having a maker's mark on something, what's the big deal? I don't think it's that big of a lift. Sure, if the crafter isn't around that changes things.

Maybe there should be a way for a crafter to unmark something they made? I mean, my crafting scripts auto-marks things at the end. I can see myself creating the same kind of situation someday.

>>That said, the origins being shrouded in mystery might be something that would be needed to be changed, too, depending on what the GM driving the merchant thinks.

This tangentially highlights something I've always found fuzzy about alterations. In a very general sense, do they always happen ICly? Can you ask alterer Bob to make your random festival verby tabard into the heirloom tabard you've had in your family for generations? Is the sword you brought in reasonable to turn into the ancient relic? Is that stuff saved for more OOC-ish alterations like the LTB scroll ones?

As for the general "shrouded in mystery" type of thing, I've found that it depends on what the item is to begin with. Can a random weapon be spoken about as a holy relic in the look? Probably not, but I'm guessing that rule might be bent if the item is actually a holy weapon. Just as another example, I had a staff made awhile ago that dances around the fact that it's magic, has an energy about it, etc. Normally that wouldn't fly, but the item is a magical item that does do magical things, so that helped sell the fact that the rules could be bent in that context.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

I'm in agreement. I was irritated to find out that I as the maker couldn't wave my own right to have my mark on armor I made. the customer had a head to toe set of silversteel armor. Not exactly something easily re-made. Please consider allowing craftsmen to wave this.


<<No, I get to be an evil sociopath and psychopath when I want to, and kill babies for fun when I want to, but when game events start up, you don't have any right to treat me like a thieving murdering evil villain, you have to respect my rights to go

I'm pretty sure the maker's info is saved in the marked item and I'd like to point out the GM behind an alterer may not know or not be comfortable with trying to work with that (since you'd have to remove the data if you remove the mark).

DR is full of wonderful spots where it's not nearly as easy to do something as we'd think.

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Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html

<<Along with that, it would be cool (although defeating the purpose marks to a point...) if there was another NPC that would buff away a mark for a very steep price.>>

I was going to suggest giving the crafter who marked it that ability. That way you know for certain that they are OK with it.

--Just a Squire

<<I like that idea.>>

Could probably make it work with the wire brush and oil/rag that is already in the system.

--Just a Squire

>>Could probably make it work with the wire brush and oil/rag that is already in the system.

On one hand, I think it would be a cool way to show that the Thievery skill extends beyond just stealing, by making removing other player's marks a cool application that involved a Thievery + Craft check.

On the other hand, I'd rather it not become commonplace and instead require a GMNPC/high price point, just to disincentivize it being done, because it probably shouldn't be done often.

On the third necromantic-jutting-out-the-back-and-sticking-over-the-shoulder hand, if players can remove their own mark it should hit their prestige somehow. Right now, marking has an explicit advantage/bonus in societies: you get some prestige. This is mainly because it shows your work being "out there" in some manner. So if you're going around removing your marks, then you're essentially less "out there".

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

I'm going to agree that there is little need to spend more GM time to fix something that can be fixed by simply not doing something during crafting.

And if the maker ISN'T ok with it? It should not become a burden on staff to track these things when it is as simple as not using a mark.

>>Or people could just be more careful when someone asks for something to not be marked. I make a lot of weapons and haven't accidentally marked something before...

My craft script is my craft script. It's not like I'm manually typing POUND, TURN, WIGGLE, SNEEZE each time I make something. MARK is part of that process for every one of my scripts because it helps with prestige.

Accidents happen at times. No one I crafted for really cares/cared if something was marked, so it was never an issue for me. At the same time, I could easily see myself forgetting to exit out of my script at the right time by accident, and if it was something made with a quest prize material, I'd be pretty annoyed.

>>I'm going to agree that there is little need to spend more GM time to fix something that can be fixed by simply not doing something during crafting.

Nothing wrong with a non-critical sideproject idea that would be a nice quality of life bump but isn't critical to the game itself. If I had to pick between tinkering and this, yeah I'd push for tinkering too, but if GM X is in "okay, I'm done trying to do this tinkering part tonight but I want to at least get some minor thing taken care of" mode, more power to him/her.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

<<Just to satisfy my curiosity:

<<Does the item actually record that Caraamon make an item or that someone with the same initials as Caraamon made it? If the latter is the case I think this idea becomes much more problematic.

Considering how much GMs use registration to know the specific properties of a forged item, I wouldn't be surprised if the maker's mark was the only identifying method of knowing who crafted an item.

Nikpack

It just records the initials. Squanto and I have identical marks for example. Short of advanced marks releasing, I don't think there's a way to differentiate.

- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -

- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:

https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide

>>> That doesn't mean the item doesn't have some data embedded for GM/back-end purposes (which is what Caraamon is considering).

Which gets back to my original question. If the GM can tell Caraamon crafted the item then this is reasonable request. If they can only tell that someone with the same initials as Caraamon crafted it, then it is probably not even a possibility.

>>FWIW I think the entire concept of having to keep a maker's mark through an alteration is silly in general. Once somebody has paid for and owns a crafted item, they should have the liberty of doing whatever they please with it.

I viewed it more a IC logic than anything. In other words, it's so alterer X doesn't take credit for what Y made.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

<<Is it a matter of aesthetics for most people or just simply a matter of "running out of room" on your LOOK/EXAMINE?

Both. We don't need any kind of code written here. We're simply asking that if there's an alteration being done and the crafter is awake and signs off on it, please allow us to wave forcing it into the design. Hell, I wasn't allowed to have an alteration done without a mark on an item I crafted and marked but decided I didn't want the mark. I argued it out, but was flatly told, its the rules.

this is something which warrants a little leniency.

Oh, it definitely stores the name. I can tell when something is mine when I analyze it, even if the mark letters are the same.

>analy mace
blah blah blah blah
You recognize this work as your own.
Roundtime: 10 sec.

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Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html

>I should clarify that I know the item stores your name somewhere inside, I was specifically replying to the person who said "I only see initials when I look at it, do I not have enough appraisal skill?"

Ahh, okay. Yeah, no amount of skill will let you determine the name from a basic stamp.

---

Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html

<<We're simply asking that if there's an alteration being done and the crafter is awake and signs off on it, please allow us to wave forcing it into the design. Hell, I wasn't allowed to have an alteration done without a mark on an item I crafted and marked but decided I didn't want the mark. I argued it out, but was flatly told, its the rules.

This is a slippery suggestion. Frankly I like that maker's marks have some meaning. If you weapon has it, it should stay there regardless of how it is to be altered. This is why a secondary suggestion was to develop a mechanic to remove maker's marks by the maker. These shouldn't be applied or removed all willy nilly.

Of course this doesn't answer the question of why maker mark removal is so important, and one that I'd like to hear some more about as well. The added 10-20 characters has never been that big of a deal for length. Such a restriction doesn't extend a description so much that you cannot make some minor changes to your alteration if it's too long.

The original post's case is a little different though, the maker's mark can sometimes conflict with the mood and tone that one is trying to create. Yet, I feel that items who's origins are "shrouded in mystery" or "cannot be determined" are a little out of place in DR (as they approach out of character/genre). All the items we obtain as players are clearly not ancient artifacts that have existed for tens of thousands of years and such alterations probably shouldn't be allowed in an alteration session.

So I guess I'm in favor of the current system as it is. I like that maker's marks have some meaning and feel that any potential issues that they create in an alteration can be handled with some clever and/or careful editing.

Nikpack

<<"shrouded in mystery" or "cannot be determined" are a little out of place in DR >>

I've seen it before, as wells as "appears ancient" or "of unknown origin". Of course this was many years ago, and perhaps alteration restrictions have gotten tighter in my absence. I don't really know. Like I said, I am fleshing it out and need to discuss it with an alterer.

<<The marks really are kind of meaningless though, or at least short of any who are fortunate enough to have a custom stamp.>>

I don't agree with this. Maker's marks illustrate a level of prestige a crafter has obtained. That said however, the mark is the crafters. They should have the ultimate say as to whether or not it can be removed. Elriic's example of being told "it's the rules" is especially silly, in my opinion.

--Just a Squire

<<"shrouded in mystery" or "cannot be determined" are a little out of place in DR >>

>>I've seen it before, as wells as "appears ancient" or "of unknown origin". Of course this was many years ago, and perhaps alteration restrictions have gotten tighter in my absence. I don't really know. Like I said, I am fleshing it out and need to discuss it with an alterer.

There is some leeway here if you are extremely careful in your wording, but in general, no, things of this nature are not allowable via alterations, though the issue is not it being considered out of genre, really. We are simply not allowed to impart information that isn't knowable by just looking at something, nor can we imply historical significance on a game-wide scale. We can't turn your sword into an artifact of the seven star empire, but you could have a seven-pointed star etched into it and you can tell people whatever you want about its origins if they ask (though they might consider you to be crazy or lying). We can add details that the reader could infer age or mysterious origins from (within limitations), but we can't just state 'this item is super mysterious and old'. Show, don't tell.

Further, armor and weapons have even more restrictions on what we can do, since the repair and damage systems show the level of damage the weapon/armor has at that moment. If you want to describe your weapon or armor as having dings and dents or being in superior condition that shows it is well maintained, we won't be able to do that, as any time you repair or damage your item the appraisal on it may conflict with the text description. We also can't call something masterfully crafted when its actual construction is dismal, and so forth.

IE:
TAP: a super sweet sword
LOOK: This sword is really well maintained and shows no signs of use.
APPRAISAL: It is very nearly destroyed!

See what I mean?

That doesn't mean that the concept couldn't be worked into something that adheres to all of the alteration rules, though! I'm just saying that if you're looking for something along those lines, please be prepared to work with the GM, be flexible, and expect that there may need to be significant changes to the design before it can be made. We always want players to come away with something they find awesome and will work with you to try to get as close to your idea as we can, but we have to follow the rules along the way.


>>That said however, the mark is the crafters. They should have the ultimate say as to whether or not it can be removed. Elriic's example of being told "it's the rules" is especially silly, in my opinion.

As of this time, it is in fact the rule, and GMs doing the alterations are not allowed to break it. It is simply not something at their discretion.

The point at which the crafter has the ultimate say right now is when they are making the item and make the choice whether to mark it or not.

That doesn't mean that in the future there may not be some way to remove maker's marks introduced into the game -- I personally think that would be neat, but crafting systems and any additions or changes to them are not really my area, so what I think on that means only so much -- but as of now there is not, and alterers are not allowed to do this during any alteration, no matter if the maker gives consent or is even the one presenting the item to be altered for themselves.


-Persida