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I just reactivated my thief after a hiatus. I haven't stolen from anyone, but as I started to do so a few moments ago, I got this message:
[Stealing from another player signifies your willingness to engage in Player versus Player conflict, and as such will set and lock your PvP stance Open. If you're sure, perform the action again in the next fifteen seconds. If you don't understand what this means, type PROFILE HELP PVP.]
I do not understand why this is now the policy. My character is 'guarded' because I spend a lot of my time hunting, and I don't want to be randomly dropped right after/during training ... I acknowledge that stealing runs the risk of PVP, and I accept that. If they catch me, I am more than willing to engage in combat. However, by forcing me to accept an OPEN pvp stance, I now run the risk of being killed by some random person who's just bored and looking for open people.
I suppose I just don't understand why stealing from someone forces me to be -open- ... i could understand forcing me to be guarded because you're engaging in something that could lead to pvp... but why open? The description for "guarded" (2. GUARDED - This setting indicates that you are open to PVP conflicts, provided you're aware they're coming.)essentially describes what's happening when you choose to steal someone. The description for Open (This setting indicates that you welcome any conflict with any person at any time) does not.
BOLEYZJN
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
01/31/2011 10:21 PM CST
If you're interested in stealing from other players, which is a hostile and unconsented attack, you have to agree to also being targeted by hostile unconsented attacks.
It's not about the fact that you're giving stealing victim X consent, but that you're willing to start conflicts unconsented, period, and if you're okay with that you should be okay with it happening to you as well.
And now welcome another threadstorm of this being argued all over again by both sides.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
It's not about the fact that you're giving stealing victim X consent, but that you're willing to start conflicts unconsented, period, and if you're okay with that you should be okay with it happening to you as well.
And now welcome another threadstorm of this being argued all over again by both sides.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
RAIST
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
01/31/2011 10:21 PM CST
>I do not understand why this is now the policy.
To sum it up, this is more or less the thought process:
1) Stealing is considered a form of PvP (you're attempting to inflict harm upon another character)
2) By stealing, you have indicated that you are willing to inflict PvP on "random" targets
3) If you are willing to do so to others, you should be willing to accept it to your character
4) The previous lines describe someone who is Open, not guarded or closed
It's only temporary, either 2 or 4 hours (I forget which), however.
"Your suffering amuses me" -GM Raesh
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
To sum it up, this is more or less the thought process:
1) Stealing is considered a form of PvP (you're attempting to inflict harm upon another character)
2) By stealing, you have indicated that you are willing to inflict PvP on "random" targets
3) If you are willing to do so to others, you should be willing to accept it to your character
4) The previous lines describe someone who is Open, not guarded or closed
It's only temporary, either 2 or 4 hours (I forget which), however.
"Your suffering amuses me" -GM Raesh
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
DGUTHRIE2
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
01/31/2011 10:24 PM CST
This has been beaten to death while you were gone, and is probably somewhere in the Equine Cemetary by now, but basically, you have options to steal from shops which do not force you to Open. Stealing from a player/character is a hostile act. It forces you open. Those that get stolen from don't ask to be relieved of their coin, yet you do it anyway, even though stealing from shops is much better for experience and training.
While that's not a very good explanation, there are hundreds of QQ posts about it somewhere on these boards. Now you know. It's the policy, it forces you open, and yes, you can be ganked by anybody who is searching for open profiles. They're out there. I was PvP Open for a year or more until I got targeted by one and killed 8 times in 3 days simply because I was PvP Open. You can always try it, or change the way you operate.
________________________________________
NMUs are not people. -GM Armifer
While that's not a very good explanation, there are hundreds of QQ posts about it somewhere on these boards. Now you know. It's the policy, it forces you open, and yes, you can be ganked by anybody who is searching for open profiles. They're out there. I was PvP Open for a year or more until I got targeted by one and killed 8 times in 3 days simply because I was PvP Open. You can always try it, or change the way you operate.
________________________________________
NMUs are not people. -GM Armifer
BARRACUDA
NJP
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/01/2011 12:03 AM CST
>>Oh god no, please not again.
Ogdaro
"Take chances and see what you can get away with, it only costs you a favor or two if you mess up." -Issus
Ogdaro
"Take chances and see what you can get away with, it only costs you a favor or two if you mess up." -Issus
GRIM45
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/01/2011 04:29 AM CST
Read the last 150 or so posts here:
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=33&topic=5&low=8148&high=8284&author=&showrange.x=0&showrange.y=0
TG, TG, GL, et al.
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=33&topic=5&low=8148&high=8284&author=&showrange.x=0&showrange.y=0
TG, TG, GL, et al.
GRIM45
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/01/2011 04:32 AM CST
Also:
>>The description for "guarded" (2. GUARDED - This setting indicates that you are open to PVP conflicts, provided you're aware they're coming.)essentially describes what's happening when you choose to steal someone.
This is what happens to YOU when stealing.
>>The description for Open (This setting indicates that you welcome any conflict with any person at any time) does not.
This is what happens to your VICTIM when stealing. Shouldn't you be just as willing to engage in PvP as your victim? Which is why you must be set to PVP open in order to steal from players.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
>>The description for "guarded" (2. GUARDED - This setting indicates that you are open to PVP conflicts, provided you're aware they're coming.)essentially describes what's happening when you choose to steal someone.
This is what happens to YOU when stealing.
>>The description for Open (This setting indicates that you welcome any conflict with any person at any time) does not.
This is what happens to your VICTIM when stealing. Shouldn't you be just as willing to engage in PvP as your victim? Which is why you must be set to PVP open in order to steal from players.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
PRAXIS
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/01/2011 04:53 AM CST
Why are so many so afraid of character death, that they reach for the guarded or closed pvp status as a sole defense?
You never hear of anyone complaining to Nintendo that their Mario was unfairly attacked by a koopa troopa.
Mistrust is our only defense against betrayal.
You never hear of anyone complaining to Nintendo that their Mario was unfairly attacked by a koopa troopa.
Mistrust is our only defense against betrayal.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/01/2011 06:10 AM CST
>>You never hear of anyone complaining to Nintendo that their Mario was unfairly attacked by a koopa troopa.
LOL, I want to be the first on that one...
To add, normally you won't get ganked randomly, I never have been truly randomly killed.....I have been killed while hunting a few times but I as a player always knew what it was about even if my character didn't. Yes there are a few people that do it, but you can avoid the repeat if you stay away from them.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
LOL, I want to be the first on that one...
To add, normally you won't get ganked randomly, I never have been truly randomly killed.....I have been killed while hunting a few times but I as a player always knew what it was about even if my character didn't. Yes there are a few people that do it, but you can avoid the repeat if you stay away from them.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
PUREHAND
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/01/2011 12:50 PM CST
The bottom line is that truly random gankings are really uncommon.
I've been open since 'profile' came out. The only people that have randomly jack me are guys that paid $5,000 for their characters so they can succeed in text where they failed in life, so I still feel like the winner when I depart.
Being 'open' probably contibuted to being involved with some other RP conflicts, but I could have easily walked away from those if I didn't want to fight. Being 'Open' ultimately has a minimal impact on my options in DR. It's not even something I think about (or check on other people).
Plus, depart item/full have made death so convenient.
~ Purehand
I've been open since 'profile' came out. The only people that have randomly jack me are guys that paid $5,000 for their characters so they can succeed in text where they failed in life, so I still feel like the winner when I depart.
Being 'open' probably contibuted to being involved with some other RP conflicts, but I could have easily walked away from those if I didn't want to fight. Being 'Open' ultimately has a minimal impact on my options in DR. It's not even something I think about (or check on other people).
Plus, depart item/full have made death so convenient.
~ Purehand
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/01/2011 04:28 PM CST
>>>The only people that have randomly jack me are guys that paid $5,000 for their characters so they can succeed in text where they failed in life, so I still feel like the winner when I depart.<<<
This post made me laugh. I kinda wish there was a list somewhere of all the bought players over the years.
This post made me laugh. I kinda wish there was a list somewhere of all the bought players over the years.
BARRACUDA
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/01/2011 05:26 PM CST
>This post made me laugh. I kinda wish there was a list somewhere of all the bought players over the years.
I think you'd be pretty disappointed. It's the DR equivalent of learning there is no Santa Claus; you already find it suspect that your favorite HLC all of a sudden has a personality disorder, but boy, you just want to believe!
I think you'd be pretty disappointed. It's the DR equivalent of learning there is no Santa Claus; you already find it suspect that your favorite HLC all of a sudden has a personality disorder, but boy, you just want to believe!
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/06/2011 07:41 PM CST
<< I do not understand why this is now the policy
I feel like I should be the official spokesman for why NOT to bring this up...
Just don't. It's not worth it. I hammered away on it with force and(imo) eloquence. I do think I changed a few minds but the general consensus is best expressed as "working as intended," which is fine. You won't like their arguments, you won't agree (at least I didn't, and still don't) but there isn't a significant player base that agrees with us; ergo, it remains.
Additionally...I've had my little moonie set to open for a week straight, no bites. Maybe they just didn't like my thief's name or something.
<< The bottom line is that truly random gankings are really uncommon.
I'm starting to think this is the case, and that I was just fortunate enough to go open in xing at a time when the riff-raff was rampant and itchy. It is undeniable that some players still have horrible OPEN experiences, regardless of your personal record, but it does seem to wax and wane.
<< The only people that have randomly jack me are guys that paid $5,000 for their characters so they can succeed in text where they failed in life, so I still feel like the winner when I depart.
Anyone with 5 grand to blow on a text blip to mess around with probably hasn't failed as hard in life as you might think :p
I feel like I should be the official spokesman for why NOT to bring this up...
Just don't. It's not worth it. I hammered away on it with force and(imo) eloquence. I do think I changed a few minds but the general consensus is best expressed as "working as intended," which is fine. You won't like their arguments, you won't agree (at least I didn't, and still don't) but there isn't a significant player base that agrees with us; ergo, it remains.
Additionally...I've had my little moonie set to open for a week straight, no bites. Maybe they just didn't like my thief's name or something.
<< The bottom line is that truly random gankings are really uncommon.
I'm starting to think this is the case, and that I was just fortunate enough to go open in xing at a time when the riff-raff was rampant and itchy. It is undeniable that some players still have horrible OPEN experiences, regardless of your personal record, but it does seem to wax and wane.
<< The only people that have randomly jack me are guys that paid $5,000 for their characters so they can succeed in text where they failed in life, so I still feel like the winner when I depart.
Anyone with 5 grand to blow on a text blip to mess around with probably hasn't failed as hard in life as you might think :p
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/07/2011 07:26 AM CST
what i would prefer as a game-wide policy would be a categorization of consent in regards to theft.
It would not involve combat, rather a true sense of proportion. "let the punishment fit the crime". I.e. an eye for an eye doesn't mean MORE than an eye, but only the "value" of an eye.
Based more on the accusal system than the pvp system.
If you steal from someone it would "open" your character to "warrents". Any character with a "warrent" for theft could either be "arrested" or stolen from themselves <based on the usual steal vs perception contests> Someone who is the "victim" of a crime could be reimbursed, or even rewarded, by finding someone with a warrent in town, and "calling" for the guards. <there would not have to be a guard in the room, it would apply only to a "justice" area, but you would have to have an additional verb to "call" guards to the room. There could be a possiblity of the criminal getting off, based on a few contests - # of warrents, how well the perpetrator has "greased" the proper palms <traders and guilded thieves would have the best chances of getting off>, etc.
On the other hand, there would be a way to erase that if you went into "trial by combat". I.e. you could go into a type of gladitorial-type combat to the death where you would face, within an arena, either
1. the accuser
2. the champion of the accusers choice
3. a random "critter" pitted against you of the level chosen similar to the task boss system.
Sort of like the ancient roman type of justice.
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
It would not involve combat, rather a true sense of proportion. "let the punishment fit the crime". I.e. an eye for an eye doesn't mean MORE than an eye, but only the "value" of an eye.
Based more on the accusal system than the pvp system.
If you steal from someone it would "open" your character to "warrents". Any character with a "warrent" for theft could either be "arrested" or stolen from themselves <based on the usual steal vs perception contests> Someone who is the "victim" of a crime could be reimbursed, or even rewarded, by finding someone with a warrent in town, and "calling" for the guards. <there would not have to be a guard in the room, it would apply only to a "justice" area, but you would have to have an additional verb to "call" guards to the room. There could be a possiblity of the criminal getting off, based on a few contests - # of warrents, how well the perpetrator has "greased" the proper palms <traders and guilded thieves would have the best chances of getting off>, etc.
On the other hand, there would be a way to erase that if you went into "trial by combat". I.e. you could go into a type of gladitorial-type combat to the death where you would face, within an arena, either
1. the accuser
2. the champion of the accusers choice
3. a random "critter" pitted against you of the level chosen similar to the task boss system.
Sort of like the ancient roman type of justice.
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/07/2011 07:57 AM CST
Alternatively, we could always just agree with the fact that stealing is a form of conflict, and if you proactively choose to do something many thieves outright admit doesn't pay out well at all, you're open to other kinds of conflict as well.
If, somewhere down the line, initiating combat sets you to open, there isn't going to be a "but I only hunt necromancers so what if we make a system where only necromancers can hunt me back but only if they're at level and also maybe send a really big zombie after me as another option" setting.
To me, it feels like the people who want to have all these conditionals and settings and alternatives really just want to create a setup where they can engage in PvP-type X without having to opt into the entire system, and it is generally based on the fact that they feel they can win more than they can lose in type X, while the other system parts don't always work out in their favor. It's a legitimate concern, but at the same time I can't say I have large amounts of sympathy for those people since they're proactively choosing to conflict with any player they choose, without any kinds of consent or approval from that person, so why should they be afforded that themselves?
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
If, somewhere down the line, initiating combat sets you to open, there isn't going to be a "but I only hunt necromancers so what if we make a system where only necromancers can hunt me back but only if they're at level and also maybe send a really big zombie after me as another option" setting.
To me, it feels like the people who want to have all these conditionals and settings and alternatives really just want to create a setup where they can engage in PvP-type X without having to opt into the entire system, and it is generally based on the fact that they feel they can win more than they can lose in type X, while the other system parts don't always work out in their favor. It's a legitimate concern, but at the same time I can't say I have large amounts of sympathy for those people since they're proactively choosing to conflict with any player they choose, without any kinds of consent or approval from that person, so why should they be afforded that themselves?
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
URUTU
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/07/2011 01:08 PM CST
<<To me, it feels like the people who want to have all these conditionals and settings and alternatives really just want to create a setup where they can engage in PvP-type X without having to opt into the entire system, and it is generally based on the fact that they feel they can win more than they can lose in type X, while the other system parts don't always work out in their favor. It's a legitimate concern,>>
There's another risk.
A person might only be interested in RP/PvPing out a certain scene at a particular time and place. Your example about necros is a good one. Someone who might want to act out a necro hunt scene might refrain from doing so because they don't want to be thrown into the general PvP pool. The game overall would suffer if they chose to opt out of the necro RP/PvP for this reason.
<<but at the same time I can't say I have large amounts of sympathy for those people since they're proactively choosing to conflict with any player they choose, without any kinds of consent or approval from that person, so why should they be afforded that themselves?>>
This is an excellent point. All I can say is it will be hard to come up with some perfect solution that balances everyone's concerns. I would just caution against thinking the answer to every type of RP/PvP conflict is to throw the participants into the general PvP pool. Not because it's a bad thing to be in the general PvP pool but because not everyone wishes to be there. It might cause some players to think twice before they attempt some of the RP/PvP activties they (and others) might have otherwise enjoyed.
Kaxis
A raven flies into the area.
The raven swoops down in front of you and with its hoarse ominous voice, utters a large croaking "Kraak".
The raven lands at your feet, taps your footwear with its beak and engages you with its black, intelligent eyes. You feel certain that it is warning you about something or someone.
A raven flies northeast.
You ponder.
There's another risk.
A person might only be interested in RP/PvPing out a certain scene at a particular time and place. Your example about necros is a good one. Someone who might want to act out a necro hunt scene might refrain from doing so because they don't want to be thrown into the general PvP pool. The game overall would suffer if they chose to opt out of the necro RP/PvP for this reason.
<<but at the same time I can't say I have large amounts of sympathy for those people since they're proactively choosing to conflict with any player they choose, without any kinds of consent or approval from that person, so why should they be afforded that themselves?>>
This is an excellent point. All I can say is it will be hard to come up with some perfect solution that balances everyone's concerns. I would just caution against thinking the answer to every type of RP/PvP conflict is to throw the participants into the general PvP pool. Not because it's a bad thing to be in the general PvP pool but because not everyone wishes to be there. It might cause some players to think twice before they attempt some of the RP/PvP activties they (and others) might have otherwise enjoyed.
Kaxis
A raven flies into the area.
The raven swoops down in front of you and with its hoarse ominous voice, utters a large croaking "Kraak".
The raven lands at your feet, taps your footwear with its beak and engages you with its black, intelligent eyes. You feel certain that it is warning you about something or someone.
A raven flies northeast.
You ponder.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/07/2011 01:15 PM CST
>>A person might only be interested in RP/PvPing out a certain scene at a particular time and place. Your example about necros is a good one. Someone who might want to act out a necro hunt scene might refrain from doing so because they don't want to be thrown into the general PvP pool. The game overall would suffer if they chose to opt out of the necro RP/PvP for this reason.
I think this would hold more weight if going PvP open was a permanent thing. You can always turn it back off after a certain amount of time.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
I think this would hold more weight if going PvP open was a permanent thing. You can always turn it back off after a certain amount of time.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
URUTU
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/07/2011 01:22 PM CST
Given the wide variance of opinions in DR I still think it has plenty of weight, at least for some players. But your point is well taken. Duration of the open PvP setting is definitely a major tool that could be used in the matter.
Kaxis
...in the aftermath.
Kaxis
...in the aftermath.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/07/2011 01:27 PM CST
Just as an aside, I want to make it beyond obvious that I have a very strong disinterest in PvP. So it's not like I just want to drag people into a situation that I personally prefer.
But, at the same time, if I was proactively hunting necromancers/stealing from people/etc, I would expect that it would express how I'm also comfortable with facing the consequences of those actions, and they may not be in the forms that I would personally approve of (just like how being proactively hunted/robbed/etc may not be what the person I'm targeting may personally approve of).
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
But, at the same time, if I was proactively hunting necromancers/stealing from people/etc, I would expect that it would express how I'm also comfortable with facing the consequences of those actions, and they may not be in the forms that I would personally approve of (just like how being proactively hunted/robbed/etc may not be what the person I'm targeting may personally approve of).
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
JULIAN
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/07/2011 07:16 PM CST
>>A person might only be interested in RP/PvPing out a certain scene at a particular time and place. Your example about necros is a good one. Someone who might want to act out a necro hunt scene might refrain from doing so because they don't want to be thrown into the general PvP pool. The game overall would suffer if they chose to opt out of the necro RP/PvP for this reason.<<
I think a plurality of DR players would say that if the player isn't willing to have RP/PvP imposed on him then he ought not to impose it on someone else. I'm not sure the game is any worse off for that.
I think a plurality of DR players would say that if the player isn't willing to have RP/PvP imposed on him then he ought not to impose it on someone else. I'm not sure the game is any worse off for that.
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/07/2011 07:37 PM CST
<<I think a plurality of DR players would say that if the player isn't willing to have RP/PvP imposed on him then he ought not to impose it on someone else. I'm not sure the game is any worse off for that.>>
And there's the key.
People who get pulled up, nudged, asked nicely, etc. to find out what they're up to will often be the first to shout out, "I ART AR-PEE-ING! LETTETH ME GO, THOUST KNAVE-ISH HATER!", but will also be the first to cry "OMG NO FAIR!" when the town constable locks them in a cell (or under the jail) for anything longer than 30 seconds, much less when significant IC actions are taken in response to their (proclaimed) "IC" behaviour.
You'd think it would be obvious that if you frequently spent time stabbing and mutilating people in your local QuikTrip, eventually the QT Manager would say, "You aren't allowed to come back here. Please go away." and yet if something similar were to happen in Talmai's Cobbler Shop and the individual were told to stay out for X amount of time, screams of "UNFAIR!" and "POWER ABUSE!" would immediately run rampant, even if Talmai was the one giving them the boot (pun completely unintended, but awesome).
Solomon
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And there's the key.
People who get pulled up, nudged, asked nicely, etc. to find out what they're up to will often be the first to shout out, "I ART AR-PEE-ING! LETTETH ME GO, THOUST KNAVE-ISH HATER!", but will also be the first to cry "OMG NO FAIR!" when the town constable locks them in a cell (or under the jail) for anything longer than 30 seconds, much less when significant IC actions are taken in response to their (proclaimed) "IC" behaviour.
You'd think it would be obvious that if you frequently spent time stabbing and mutilating people in your local QuikTrip, eventually the QT Manager would say, "You aren't allowed to come back here. Please go away." and yet if something similar were to happen in Talmai's Cobbler Shop and the individual were told to stay out for X amount of time, screams of "UNFAIR!" and "POWER ABUSE!" would immediately run rampant, even if Talmai was the one giving them the boot (pun completely unintended, but awesome).
Solomon
Be our Facebook Pal!
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FUTILITY
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/07/2011 08:28 PM CST
>>You'd think it would be obvious that if you frequently spent time stabbing and mutilating people in your local QuikTrip, eventually the QT Manager would say, "You aren't allowed to come back here. Please go away." and yet if something similar were to happen in Talmai's Cobbler Shop and the individual were told to stay out for X amount of time, screams of "UNFAIR!" and "POWER ABUSE!" would immediately run rampant, even if Talmai was the one giving them the boot (pun completely unintended, but awesome).
I think this is a far better solution than the current system, because whether you can hear them or not, the screams happen. It's just that in lockout, nobody can hear you scream. Throw a temper tantrum like that in game and your reputation as a role-player takes a hit. If you're serious about being taken serious, that's unacceptable to you, and you'll probably just figure out a way to carry out a vendetta against Talmai "and his little dog, too."
Honestly, getting told you're not welcome in a town for several weeks because of your history of murder won't change anything except possibly make people more prone to ganking in hunting grounds.
I think this is a far better solution than the current system, because whether you can hear them or not, the screams happen. It's just that in lockout, nobody can hear you scream. Throw a temper tantrum like that in game and your reputation as a role-player takes a hit. If you're serious about being taken serious, that's unacceptable to you, and you'll probably just figure out a way to carry out a vendetta against Talmai "and his little dog, too."
Honestly, getting told you're not welcome in a town for several weeks because of your history of murder won't change anything except possibly make people more prone to ganking in hunting grounds.
DGUTHRIE2
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/07/2011 09:58 PM CST
>>If you're serious about being taken serious<<
Hit the nail on the head right there. There are too many people who are NOT serious about being taken serious and just want to play the way they want to play and to hell with everyone else, and oh ya, if there's a rule or two I can bend, consider it done. If there's a mechanic that I can abuse for my gain, I'm all over it.
The rules have been set. People can whine all they want about them, but eventually, they're just going to have to let it go, or go home. The OP had been away for a while, was surprised at the messaging he got, posted about it, got an answer (admittedly one he didn't like) and yet we're still discussing it? Casting my vote for Equine Cemetary.
________________________________________
NMUs are not people. -GM Armifer
Hit the nail on the head right there. There are too many people who are NOT serious about being taken serious and just want to play the way they want to play and to hell with everyone else, and oh ya, if there's a rule or two I can bend, consider it done. If there's a mechanic that I can abuse for my gain, I'm all over it.
The rules have been set. People can whine all they want about them, but eventually, they're just going to have to let it go, or go home. The OP had been away for a while, was surprised at the messaging he got, posted about it, got an answer (admittedly one he didn't like) and yet we're still discussing it? Casting my vote for Equine Cemetary.
________________________________________
NMUs are not people. -GM Armifer
VIOLENTXSHINOBI
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/07/2011 10:01 PM CST
>Casting my vote for Equine Cemetary.
Seconded
-Reverend Gidien
"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."
~Miyamoto Musashi
Seconded
-Reverend Gidien
"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."
~Miyamoto Musashi
NEELD
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/08/2011 07:46 AM CST
<<People who get pulled up, nudged, asked nicely, etc. to find out what they're up to will often be the first to shout out, "I ART AR-PEE-ING! LETTETH ME GO, THOUST KNAVE-ISH HATER!", but will also be the first to cry "OMG NO FAIR!" when the town constable locks them in a cell (or under the jail) for anything longer than 30 seconds, much less when significant IC actions are taken in response to their (proclaimed) "IC" behaviour.
Solomon: Three Simu-Cons ago, we had a whole session on IG punishments and that their use would increase significantly. Wouldn't it be easier to IG punish that stuff?
Madigan
Solomon: Three Simu-Cons ago, we had a whole session on IG punishments and that their use would increase significantly. Wouldn't it be easier to IG punish that stuff?
Madigan
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/08/2011 10:35 AM CST
<<Solomon: Three Simu-Cons ago, we had a whole session on IG punishments and that their use would increase significantly. Wouldn't it be easier to IG punish that stuff? >>
That's what I was talking about. When I said "cell", I was referring to a jail cell or a dungeon cell, when I said "or under the jail".
Not even talking about Lockouts at this point. That's a whole different can of Screaming Blue Murder that would be opened.
Solomon
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That's what I was talking about. When I said "cell", I was referring to a jail cell or a dungeon cell, when I said "or under the jail".
Not even talking about Lockouts at this point. That's a whole different can of Screaming Blue Murder that would be opened.
Solomon
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NEELD
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/08/2011 11:19 AM CST
<<That's what I was talking about. When I said "cell", I was referring to a jail cell or a dungeon cell, when I said "or under the jail".
You bet, I get that was what you were discussing. I suppose my questions was more "If folks are going to complain even after you give them a nudge, why not just toss them in a cell for IG punishment?"
Some GM tools that may be helpful would be:
1. Ability to toss in jail (I suspect that already exists).
2. An enforceable exile mechanic.
3. Some form of "brand" that would prevent a character from receiving certain benefits (maybe even prevent healing or other city benefits).
For me, that stuff seems pretty cool RP fodder.
Madigan
You bet, I get that was what you were discussing. I suppose my questions was more "If folks are going to complain even after you give them a nudge, why not just toss them in a cell for IG punishment?"
Some GM tools that may be helpful would be:
1. Ability to toss in jail (I suspect that already exists).
2. An enforceable exile mechanic.
3. Some form of "brand" that would prevent a character from receiving certain benefits (maybe even prevent healing or other city benefits).
For me, that stuff seems pretty cool RP fodder.
Madigan
HAMBARD
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/08/2011 11:20 AM CST
And tack on some social outrage. Please.
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/08/2011 11:24 AM CST
>>You bet, I get that was what you were discussing. I suppose my questions was more "If folks are going to complain even after you give them a nudge, why not just toss them in a cell for IG punishment?"
It wouldn't shock me if, in order to least headache and paperwork causing to most headache and paperwork causing, the order went
1. IC Nudge
2. OOC Nudge
3. OOC long-term Punishment
4. IC long-term Punishment
See, the problem with IC long-term punishment (to me), is that not only does that mean the GMs have to deal with a customer complaining on an OOC level (to customer service, the boards, etc), but they also have to deal with all that ICly, as well.
Now, I'm 100% on team IC punishment, but that's in the scope of those getting the punishment acknowledging (and possibly being glad!) that their characters were being ICly punished. I can name a few people right off the top of my head who would probably love a good IC punishment for being an IC sociopath. Shockingly enough, they're also not the people who I believe tend to get upset over an OOC nudge from a GM, because the strong majority of the time they're being evil because it's a fun character to be, as opposed to a thin excuse to PK everyone in sight.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
It wouldn't shock me if, in order to least headache and paperwork causing to most headache and paperwork causing, the order went
1. IC Nudge
2. OOC Nudge
3. OOC long-term Punishment
4. IC long-term Punishment
See, the problem with IC long-term punishment (to me), is that not only does that mean the GMs have to deal with a customer complaining on an OOC level (to customer service, the boards, etc), but they also have to deal with all that ICly, as well.
Now, I'm 100% on team IC punishment, but that's in the scope of those getting the punishment acknowledging (and possibly being glad!) that their characters were being ICly punished. I can name a few people right off the top of my head who would probably love a good IC punishment for being an IC sociopath. Shockingly enough, they're also not the people who I believe tend to get upset over an OOC nudge from a GM, because the strong majority of the time they're being evil because it's a fun character to be, as opposed to a thin excuse to PK everyone in sight.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/08/2011 11:26 AM CST
Pureblade is on a roll today.
I might have to give him "Butter" as a custom title.
Solomon
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I might have to give him "Butter" as a custom title.
Solomon
Be our Facebook Pal!
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NJP
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/08/2011 11:48 AM CST
I would definitely love to see IC punishments doled out for things more often. I love all the ideas that Madigan put out there, in particular the brand that would prohibit city/provincial services. If it were a visible brand placed on the character, I would definitely go out of my way to achieve it.
All this talk makes me realize just how much of a slacker I've been as a bad guy lately.
Ogdaro
"Take chances and see what you can get away with, it only costs you a favor or two if you mess up." -Issus
All this talk makes me realize just how much of a slacker I've been as a bad guy lately.
Ogdaro
"Take chances and see what you can get away with, it only costs you a favor or two if you mess up." -Issus
NEELD
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/08/2011 12:45 PM CST
<<I might have to give him "Butter" as a custom title.
+1
Madigan
+1
Madigan
SHADOW7988
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/08/2011 03:44 PM CST
I'd love to see long term Social Outrage get thrown at certain characters.
Love to see both a mechanic for a Social Branding, as well as outright Brand (Scarring) of a character (that can't be healed by empaths).
Thanks,
Shadow7988
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
Love to see both a mechanic for a Social Branding, as well as outright Brand (Scarring) of a character (that can't be healed by empaths).
Thanks,
Shadow7988
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
NELLO
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/24/2011 09:53 PM CST
Old thread, apologies for reviving it! It took me longer than I thought to do this. It's in response to people who claim being set to PvP open ruins stealing or whatever the complaint was.
For those who like data and numbers I did a stealing sampling of 100 unique people using a PvP Open character in Prime. Didn't use Mark only my gut instincts of who I may succeed on. Stealing ranged from 100-200, usually no armor.
87 people failed to catch me rob them.
1 person failed to catch me but I failed to grab.
12 people caught me.
Of the 12, two people reacted.
Of those two, one appeared upset but didn't do anything.
The other killed me. Congrats to Purehand and his avenger.
See if you made the list:
10: Draesian*, Washte*, Tawlyr, Matok, Fuiru, Honorious, Lwaxana, Cerathin, Argowall*, Sijilim
20: Merico, Raic, Brabiv, Akadisabana, Arekk, Gnobble, Cendrik, Jaervin-, Deeter, Phangr
30: Marlowe, Zhann, Osus*, Shendarra, Rikilieta, Stilva*, Linota, Kameia, Kelmevor, Cayana
40: Ermelin, Saeska, Ceedat, Rothguard, Olel*, Darko, Zarod, Purehand*, Eclyps, Teferi
50: Rione, Ophax, Lanahhzhra, Contagion, Alfaur, Travaldan, Teraphim, Cepharos, Sarluke, Murken
60: Breese, Hindsight, Devoney, Darknight, Taynki, Chadwihk, Murcaptine, Pippina, Kasyla, Wrathkin
70: Astial, Tathalas*, Kalewen, Hewlet, Jaleshia. Zheky, Rozze*, Genesee, Martyre*, Kashvik
80: Lydathan, Stian, Dolu, Jehud, Dribbler, Desian, Thokz, Terwinwor, Lexandro, Resdirett
90: Rohlo, Verindi*, Silvwyn*, Tolgrim, Misstep, Etherton, Masuimi, Voranos, Plum, Liahdan
100: Otwe, Telomere, Nemata, Gotnix, Spyra, Nysik, Psiphin, Mdjai, Melchiore, Flawgic
Total: 100. * = Caught, - = Failed grab, not caught.
For those who like data and numbers I did a stealing sampling of 100 unique people using a PvP Open character in Prime. Didn't use Mark only my gut instincts of who I may succeed on. Stealing ranged from 100-200, usually no armor.
87 people failed to catch me rob them.
1 person failed to catch me but I failed to grab.
12 people caught me.
Of the 12, two people reacted.
Of those two, one appeared upset but didn't do anything.
The other killed me. Congrats to Purehand and his avenger.
See if you made the list:
10: Draesian*, Washte*, Tawlyr, Matok, Fuiru, Honorious, Lwaxana, Cerathin, Argowall*, Sijilim
20: Merico, Raic, Brabiv, Akadisabana, Arekk, Gnobble, Cendrik, Jaervin-, Deeter, Phangr
30: Marlowe, Zhann, Osus*, Shendarra, Rikilieta, Stilva*, Linota, Kameia, Kelmevor, Cayana
40: Ermelin, Saeska, Ceedat, Rothguard, Olel*, Darko, Zarod, Purehand*, Eclyps, Teferi
50: Rione, Ophax, Lanahhzhra, Contagion, Alfaur, Travaldan, Teraphim, Cepharos, Sarluke, Murken
60: Breese, Hindsight, Devoney, Darknight, Taynki, Chadwihk, Murcaptine, Pippina, Kasyla, Wrathkin
70: Astial, Tathalas*, Kalewen, Hewlet, Jaleshia. Zheky, Rozze*, Genesee, Martyre*, Kashvik
80: Lydathan, Stian, Dolu, Jehud, Dribbler, Desian, Thokz, Terwinwor, Lexandro, Resdirett
90: Rohlo, Verindi*, Silvwyn*, Tolgrim, Misstep, Etherton, Masuimi, Voranos, Plum, Liahdan
100: Otwe, Telomere, Nemata, Gotnix, Spyra, Nysik, Psiphin, Mdjai, Melchiore, Flawgic
Total: 100. * = Caught, - = Failed grab, not caught.
YAMCER
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/24/2011 10:45 PM CST
<<For those who like data and numbers>>
The thing about PvP open and stealing is that the people not on your list attempt to attack you. It is understandable that the victims could attack you and has been the norm since player stealing was allowed.
I'm not sure what the point of your data collection is since it didn't address the complaints about it. So for your sample size of two people, one took care of it them selves one didn't do anything. You might try getting caught stealing 100 times on the ferry or something see how many people send others after you.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
The thing about PvP open and stealing is that the people not on your list attempt to attack you. It is understandable that the victims could attack you and has been the norm since player stealing was allowed.
I'm not sure what the point of your data collection is since it didn't address the complaints about it. So for your sample size of two people, one took care of it them selves one didn't do anything. You might try getting caught stealing 100 times on the ferry or something see how many people send others after you.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
VIOLENTXSHINOBI
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/24/2011 10:53 PM CST
>I'm not sure what the point of your data collection is since it didn't address the complaints about it.
Maybe this will solve your problem with the test.
How many times were you randomly killed after getting caught? How many times were you killed by someone who was helping the person you stole from?
Edited: to sound less hostile.
-Reverend Gidien
"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."
~Miyamoto Musashi
Maybe this will solve your problem with the test.
How many times were you randomly killed after getting caught? How many times were you killed by someone who was helping the person you stole from?
Edited: to sound less hostile.
-Reverend Gidien
"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."
~Miyamoto Musashi
NELLO
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/24/2011 11:04 PM CST
My understanding was people were not happy about being set to PvP Open even if they were not caught. "No one saw me, why should I be set to Open." And they said people still came after them even when not caught.
Twelve people caught me and only one killed me. No one sent anyone after me. I never left the basic area to give only a mild chase. Oh well. I'll try to get caught by more people for next time. Thanks for the feedback! It's interesting to me how most people just shrug off thieves. Like it isn't worth their time or maybe they're afraid of engaging the robber.
Twelve people caught me and only one killed me. No one sent anyone after me. I never left the basic area to give only a mild chase. Oh well. I'll try to get caught by more people for next time. Thanks for the feedback! It's interesting to me how most people just shrug off thieves. Like it isn't worth their time or maybe they're afraid of engaging the robber.
CHRISSY-QUE
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/25/2011 10:51 AM CST
lol. I really need to add theft to my highlights. I would have killed you for sure if I'd noticed you were dipping into my pockets.
STILVA
Re: Stealing forcing pvp stance to open
02/25/2011 07:42 PM CST
[Obligatory "You could've at least bought me drinks first" joke goes here].
