So I just ran some numbers, and those complaining that increasing harness doesn't increase your mana efficiency are dreadfully wrong. The significant difference is, cambrinth becomes WAY better than raw mana at higher levels - To the point where you're over 6x more efficient using cambrinth than raw mana. Expect to see some tweaks to this tonight.

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"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.

Coming in a bit late, but similar: I was thinking that if charging cambrinth would refresh your link it would be easier to sustain cyclics. The main way my cyclics keep falling is through the link wearing out before my orb actually runs out of mana.

Does refocusing on a cambrinth refresh your link, or just check it? Considering the RT for focusing on a cambrinth is down to 2s or so, I feel there's almost no excuse for letting a link fail.

Especially if refocusing told us something useful......... (nudgenudge)

>>Sounds like a feat to me :).

I'm gonna run out of spell slots.

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You've reached the uninformative help match I haven't written yet.

http://i.imgur.com/fBq8R.jpg

>Made some major tweaks to the curves for this. Camb should be less efficient now, and raw prep should be more efficient. Harness should be ~ the same.

Is Raw Channeling the most efficient?

>>I was thinking that if charging cambrinth would refresh your link it would be easier to sustain cyclics. The main way my cyclics keep falling is through the link wearing out before my orb actually runs out of mana.

>Sounds like a feat to me :).

Although, I think the whole point of the question was to avoid having to get a feat. Since you'd just get raw channeling in this case.

What about making it so that focus resets the link, instead of just saying, "your link is intact" or whatever? (This might be how it works in 3.0, I haven't tested, but in 2.0 it definitely didn't.)

>>(Totally made up numbers here) So let's say your attunement pool has a value of 10000. If you were to charge a cambrinth with 30 mana, you might drop to 9000. If you were to raw cast with that instead, you could drop as low as 4000. Essentially, the cost per mana point when using camb was up to 1/6 as much as when using raw channeling. This has been fixed to be more reasonable, so it's not as horribly unbalanced.

Wouldn't that be the case if you harnessed 30 mana instead of raw casting, too? That's probably what threw me off: how it was just a cambrinth thing.

>>This has been fixed to be more reasonable, so it's not as horribly unbalanced.

In the "raw cast will now take you to 6000 vs 4000" or "cambrinth(/harnessing?) will take you from 7000 vs 9000" sense? Or is it a bit middle of the road, like "raw casts would be 5000 vs 4000 and cambrinth will be 8000 vs 9000"?

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The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).

>>Harness is less efficient than camb but more efficient than raw channeling.

Was the "less efficient" part mainly the leakage/potential nerve damage?

I totally agree if it is, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't not acknowledging something else possibly going on. As far as I know, harnessing 8 three times is the same as charging a cambrinth armband by 8 three times, the only difference is that harness leaks faster and can cause nerve damage, while cambrinth leaks slower and doesn't hurt anyone for doing so.

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The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).

>>As far as I know, harnessing 8 three times is the same as charging a cambrinth armband by 8 three times, the only difference is that harness leaks faster and can cause nerve damage, while cambrinth leaks slower and doesn't hurt anyone for doing so.

I think you're conflating mana and attunement. What we're talking about is how much attunement each mana point costs - 8 mana is still 8 mana is still 8 mana, but where 8 raw/harnessed/camb mana used to cost 4000/2500/750 attunement, they now cost 2900/2500/1900 attunement (totally made up numbers).

>>I'm able to get 6 to 7 casts before my paladin was straining. Harness seems to yield similar results.

Yeah the calcs might be a little aggressive at the moment, and may get reduced a little bit. The interesting question is, how long once you began straining until you could cast again? With the faster regeneration at low attunement, it might be that you can keep a pretty reasonable rate of casting.

>>I tested in lambent mana and radiant mana (using glyph of mana). Surprisingly, the results were not much different;

Mana in a room does matter, but that wasn't an especially huge jump (especially if it was the high end of lambent to the low end of radiant). The impact of room mana actually didn't get changed at all during these tweaks.

As I gather more data, I'll keep an eye on things. Please do more testing and let me know if there's a reasonable equilibrium you can reach that feels more comfortable.

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"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.

>>but where 8 raw/harnessed/camb mana used to cost 4000/2500/750 attunement, they now cost 2900/2500/1900 attunement (totally made up numbers).

Assuming that Plat didn't get these changes yet, here's a quick test I did. I checked how much attunement it would cost to do each thing in a fulgent room while at 100% attunement.

casting a spell at 10 mana straight: 3%
harnessing 10 mana straight: 3%
charging 10 mana straight: 3%

casting a spell at 20 mana straight: 7%
harnessing 20 mana straight: 5%
charging 20 mana straight: 5%

casting a spell at 30 mana straight: 15%
harnessing 30 mana straight: 10%
charging 30 mana straight: 7%

I think the reason is because I tended to always charge in bits of 10 for training purposes, so I never noticed that there is such a notable curve beyond that. How about that!

Just wanted to share this data because I never knew that it's easier to dump 30 mana into an orb than say cast a spell at 30. I thought both cost the same amount of attunement because they needed the same amount of mana.

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The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).

>>I'm not sure why you didn't just test it.

Because I wasn't logged into Dragonrealms, so I was having a conversation. I also never really use more than 10 mana when charging, because that wasn't how I did things.

But, as you can see, once I was able to log in to test, I did test.

Feel better?

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The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).

As a result of all this magic stuff and the increased value of cambrinth, will very small cambs (or things that act like camb) be a low-end crafting item, I imagine falling under enchanting or jewelry?

--Wryhk

1st grade tl;dr version:

Numbers didn't change. Words changed. Words don't matter. Numbers all that matters.

--GRIM45

I would love to not have to focus:(

> Made some major tweaks to the curves for this. Camb should be less efficient now, and raw prep should be more efficient. Harness should be ~ the same.

I'm a little worried that harness is out in the cold. If I want to take the time to be efficient, I use cambrinth. If I'm in a hurry or just lazy, I straight prep. There's no reason for me to harness.

>Or maybe you can already harness more mana in 3.0 without taking damage, I've never really tested to be honest.



> prep s c
Since you're not feeding enough power into the spell pattern to make it coherent, you quickly work your way to the minimum required.
That will disrupt less than a quarter of your current attunement.
However, if you utilize a ritual focus: That won't affect your current attunement very much.

You trace a geometric sigil in the air, shaping the pattern of the Seal Cambrinth spell.
> har 25

You tap into the mana from twenty-five of the surrounding streams and attempt to keep it channeling in a stream around you.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R> har 25

You tap into the mana from twenty-five of the surrounding streams and add it to the appreciable amount already streaming around you.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R> har 25

You tap into the mana from twenty-five of the surrounding streams and add it to the vast amount already streaming around you.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R> har 25

You tap into the mana from twenty-five of the surrounding streams and add it to the extreme amount already streaming around you.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R> har 25

You tap into the mana from twenty-five of the surrounding streams and add it to the tremendous amount already streaming around you.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R>
> har 25

You tap into the mana from twenty-five of the surrounding streams and add it to the unbelievable amount already streaming around you.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R> har 25

You tap into the mana from twenty-five of the surrounding streams and add it to the unbelievable amount already streaming around you.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R> har 25

You tap into the mana from twenty-five of the surrounding streams and add it to the unbelievable amount already streaming around you.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R> har 25

You tap into the mana from twenty-five of the surrounding streams and add it to the unbelievable amount already streaming around you.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R>
A wave of intense heat rolls out from an enormous fiery fissure.
R> har 25

You tap into the mana from twenty-five of the surrounding streams and add it to the insane amount already streaming around you.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R> har 25

You tap into the mana from twenty-five of the surrounding streams and add it to the insane amount already streaming around you.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
R> har 25

You tap into the mana from twenty-five of the surrounding streams and add it to the godlike amount already streaming around you.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R> har 25

You tap into the mana from twenty-five of the surrounding streams and add it to the godlike amount already streaming around you.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
> har 25

You tap into the mana from twenty-five of the surrounding streams and add it to the godlike amount already streaming around you.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R>
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.

> cast my orb

You gesture at a cambrinth orb.
You contribute your harnessed streams to increase the pattern's potential.
An amber crystal appears on your cambrinth orb and darts across its surface, leaving a vivid trail. Within moments the whole orb is encased in a sphere, which then fades from sight.

> focus orb
You focus your magical senses on a cambrinth orb.
A magical field surrounds the orb, which should last for seventy-three roisaen.
The cambrinth orb is dim, almost magically null. A very faint pattern indicates its readiness to absorb Elemental energy.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

>Yeah the calcs might be a little aggressive at the moment, and may get reduced a little bit. The interesting question is, how long once you began straining until you could cast again? With the faster regeneration at low attunement, it might be that you can keep a pretty reasonable rate of casting.

Mana regen is great at low attunement. I didn’t have to wait long before I had 20% back, which is enough to cast the way I was casting on my paladin. It works fine for augmentation spells and the like but it makes TM a little boring to me; it involves a lot of waiting (wait to target and harness/charge camb, wait for attunement) in already-slowed combat. Maybe if regen is better at higher attunement, while keeping it the way it is at low attunement, it would feel a little more comfortable.


>Mana in a room does matter, but that wasn't an especially huge jump (especially if it was the high end of lambent to the low end of radiant). The impact of room mana actually didn't get changed at all during these tweaks.

Sorry, I probably should have made a separate post about that. I know room mana impact didn’t change but I felt it more after the camb change. I tested in dusky mana as well and the difference was maybe 2 FSTs at the pace I was casting on my paladin (I don’t have strong empirical data here). I felt like I should have noticed a bigger difference in the radiant room than the dusky room (I believe that’s level 15 vs level 6).

>It's possible that the cambrinth roundtimes are too low as they stand right now, focus or not. Cambrinth really ought to be >focused around the REALLY low-mana room situations, where it's used as a battery to keep you going. Harness should be mostly used >in medium-high mana room situations to help you conserve mana without preparation. I'll continue tweaking the numbers and see >where it lands us.

I really like the cambrinth roundtimes as they are, but perhaps efficiency could vary based on the room mana? I'd say experience too, but I think it would lead to bad times for moon mage training.

>>The issue is that right now, Harness and Cambrinth compete for the same niche, which isn't a good thing. They need to have separate places in a casting routine, or at least have different pros and cons - Right now, there's still little reason to use harness vs camb because camb is so easy to use while doing everything.

I'd argue cambrinth's drawback is having to carry the cambrinth. Yes, easily countered with huge cambrinth pieces and whatnot but it IS a cost.

Switch cambrinth to act as a battery that you harness from in low mana or poor mana situations, & and make them hold much, much more, and take much much longer to charge.

>harn 10
You can't harness that much

>harn cam 10
You reach out with your blah blah blah and harness 10 streams of mana from your camb orb.

It give people with arcana skill the opportunity to take mana to places where it might not supposed to be, or where the room isn't quite good enough, or the moons are in a horrible phase, or the weather is bad, etc.

Then you could make a feat that automatically pulls from any charged/focused cambrinth when you try to harness, but your attunement is tapped out.

Just a thought - way too much for this release, but it definitely separates them. I know some empaths, and clerics sure would like to be able to use this so they didn't have to drag people to heck and gone to find the right rooms. PvP would be nice because would have that little extra bit mana to throw the smack done.

It would really be an interesting thing for sorcery and NMU (Theives and Traders) to be able to use an orb that someone else stored up with mana to cast spells from scrolls.

Just an out of the box thought, probably should put it back in the box.

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Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry

Your logic makes sense to me.

Also to note
Option 1: Least amount of immediate rt
Option 2: Variable RT but the RT can be done in advance of the actions needed
Option 3: Most amount of immediate RT (meaning to the situation, since you cant harness forever).