Couple potential issues. Whether or not it's intended, you decide! And yes, I'm done sugar coating -- What happened just a moment ago seems very powerful to me so I just want to sense check it with the powers that be, and with you the players.

---

1) Harm Horde hits an engaged opponent multiple times per cast. i.e. Liu cast it while I was engaged to him at melee, and when he cast it it hit me once, and then once again when it expanded out to pole range.

2) It seems Hydra Hex/Malediction can be used to curse another player, and Harm Horde can then be used on that player as if he/she were an undead/Necromancer. This has -devastating- effects. Two logs below!
* The first log is with Liurilias(857 TM) casting at me(1050ish defense). The second is with Evro(611 TM) casting at me.

---

Liurilias Casting

Liurilias says, "Hrm."
>
You feel the cursed pall wane away, renewing the vigor to your body.
A feeling of shock washes through your veins like ice water as a swarm of shadowy tendrils coalesce around you, intertwining into a constricting cage.
>
Liurilias says, "That's weird."
>
Liurilias bows his head and chants a mantra.
You're able to decipher telltale signs of the Harm Horde spell.
>
Liurilias begins to focus intently around himself.
>
Liurilias gestures.
A whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist rises up around him.
>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist pulses hard before expanding in size, lashing out at everything within reach!
>
You feel the cursed pall wane away, renewing the vigor to your body.
A feeling of shock washes through your veins like ice water as a swarm of shadowy tendrils coalesce around you, intertwining into a constricting cage.
>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist becomes more violent, expanding outward from Liurilias.
You are unaffected.
>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist becomes more violent, expanding outward from Liurilias.
A misty silver tendril slams into your left leg.

The whirlwind dissipates as quickly as it formed.
!>
Liurilias says, "Still hit."
!>
Liurilias bows his head and chants a mantra.
You're able to decipher telltale signs of the Harm Horde spell.
!>
Liurilias begins to focus intently around himself.
!>
Evro says to Liurilias, "Well if you can't hit him.....I won't."
!>
You feel the cursed pall wane away, renewing the vigor to your body.
A feeling of shock washes through your veins like ice water as a swarm of shadowy tendrils coalesce around you, intertwining into a constricting cage.
!> 'Hmm
You say, "Hmm."
!>
Liurilias says, "Got a leg hit."
!>
Liurilias gestures.
A whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist rises up around him.
!>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist pulses hard before expanding in size, lashing out at everything within reach!
!>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist becomes more violent, expanding outward from Liurilias.
A misty grey tendril slams into your left arm.
!>
Liurilias bows his head and chants a mantra.
You're able to decipher telltale signs of the Harm Horde spell.
!>
Liurilias begins to focus intently around himself.
!>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist becomes more violent, expanding outward from Liurilias.
A misty silver tendril lances through your left arm.
Your cambrinth orb falls to the ground.

The whirlwind dissipates as quickly as it formed.

!>
You feel the cursed pall wane away, renewing the vigor to your body.
A feeling of shock washes through your veins like ice water as a swarm of shadowy tendrils coalesce around you, intertwining into a constricting cage.
!> health

Your body feels in bad shape.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have a severely swollen and shattered left arm which appears completely useless compounded by an ugly stump for a left arm, a severely swollen and deeply bruised left leg compounded by deep slashes across the left leg, an ugly stump for a left hand.

Bleeding
Area Rate

---

left arm severe
left leg light
inside l. arm severe
inside l. leg light

!> 'Interesting
You say, "Interesting."
!>
Liurilias gestures.
A whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist rises up around him.
!>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist pulses hard before expanding in size, lashing out at everything within reach!
!> shea

You sheathe the mirror blade in your wood sheath.
!>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist becomes more violent, expanding outward from Liurilias.
You are unaffected.
!>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist becomes more violent, expanding outward from Liurilias.
A misty grey tendril lances through your back.
The rhythmic thrum flowing through your body lingers with a fading warmth like the last rays of the setting sun.
Your death cry echoes in your brain as it quickly dawns on you that you have just died! Already, you feel the tug of eternity upon your soul and you struggle to remain tied to this world.

A chill takes the seat of your soul as your remaining spiritual strength bleeds away steadily. However, you are comforted that you have curried the favor of your god, which will greatly improve the course of your resurrection or reincarnation.

Your body will decay beyond its ability to hold your soul in 247 minutes.

The whirlwind dissipates as quickly as it formed.

DEAD>
Liurilias bows his head and chants a mantra.
You're able to decipher telltale signs of the Harm Horde spell.
DEAD>
Liurilias begins to focus intently around himself.
DEAD>
Evro says, "Ok so we mostly know that cursing someone makes them suseptible to HH."
DEAD>
Liurilias says, "Yeah so.."
DEAD> healme

You are healthy now! Get back to work!
You feel the weakness imparted by your recent death slowly fade away.

> stand
You are already standing.
>
You feel the cursed pall wane away, renewing the vigor to your body.
A feeling of shock washes through your veins like ice water as a swarm of shadowy tendrils coalesce around you, intertwining into a constricting cage.
>
Liurilias says, "I don't think that should be possible."
>
The deadening murk around Liurilias subsides.
>
Liurilias says, "At least, not like that."
>
Evro asks, "You gonna complain?"
>
Liurilias says, "Not a complaint."
>
Liurilias says, "Just seems unintended."
>
You feel the cursed pall wane away, renewing the vigor to your body.
>
Liurilias says, "Then again, it could be intended."
> 'How much TM Liu?
Liurilias shrugs.
>
You ask, "How much TM Liu?"
>
Evro says, "No argument there....but I won't point it out either."
>
Liurilias says, "857."
> chuck
You chuckle.
> 'Yeah
You say, "Yeah."
>
Liurilias says, "But HH bypasses Shield."
> 'Do you have buffs?
You ask, "Do you have buffs?"
>
Liurilias asks, "For TM?"
> 'Ohh
You say, "Ohh."
> 'Yeah
You say, "Yeah."
> 'Buffs for TM
You say, "Buffs for TM."
>
Liurilias says, "Just the commune vs Undead/Cursed."
> nod
You nod.
>
Evro says, "I got CJ's for TM."
>
Liurilias says, "THough I don't recall if they said it was for damage or like a "spell bonus" aka put more mana in."
>
Liurilias says, "I think I do too."
>
Liurilias says, "Somewere."
> 'Well, you just three shot someone with 1050 ranks of defenses by that little combo of yours.
You say, "Well, you just three shot someone with 1050 ranks of defenses by that little combo of yours."
>
Liurilias says, "Or I did."
> chuck
You chuckle.
>
Liurilias says, "It was more than three hits."
> 'Do it again?
You ask, "Do it again?"
> 'I counted three from full health
You say, "I counted three from full health."
>
Liurilias says, "Leg, arm, arm, back."
>
Liurilias bows his head and chants a mantra.
You're able to decipher telltale signs of the Hydra Hex spell.
>
Liurilias assesses his combat situation.
>
Evro says, "But I think 2 hits were on one cast."
>
Liurilias nods.
>
Liurilias gestures.
Swirls of malefic darkness gather in loose proximity to Liurilias's body, dangling like dead ivy in the air.
>
A feeling of shock washes through your veins like ice water as a swarm of shadowy tendrils coalesce around you, intertwining into a constricting cage.
>
Liurilias says, "I also was cursing your defenses."
>
Liurilias bows his head and chants a mantra.
You're able to decipher telltale signs of the Harm Horde spell.
>
Liurilias begins to focus intently around himself.
>
Evro says, "Cast 1."
>
Liurilias says, "CJs don't work in 3.0."
>
Liurilias gestures.
A whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist rises up around him.
>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist pulses hard before expanding in size, lashing out at everything within reach!
>
You feel the cursed pall wane away, renewing the vigor to your body.
A feeling of shock washes through your veins like ice water as a swarm of shadowy tendrils coalesce around you, intertwining into a constricting cage.
>
Liurilias bows his head and chants a mantra.
You're able to decipher telltale signs of the Harm Horde spell.
>
Liurilias begins to focus intently around himself.
>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist becomes more violent, expanding outward from Liurilias.
A misty silver tendril strikes your head.
!>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist becomes more violent, expanding outward from Liurilias.
A misty silver tendril strikes your left leg.

The whirlwind dissipates as quickly as it formed.
!>
Liurilias exclaims, "Headshot!"
!>
Liurilias says, "And left leg."
!>
Liurilias gestures.
A whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist rises up around him.
!>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist pulses hard before expanding in size, lashing out at everything within reach!
!>
Liurilias bows his head and chants a mantra.
You're able to decipher telltale signs of the Harm Horde spell.
!>
Liurilias begins to focus intently around himself.
!>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist becomes more violent, expanding outward from Liurilias.
A misty grey tendril lances through your head.
You feel the cursed pall wane away, renewing the vigor to your body.
Your death cry echoes in your brain as it quickly dawns on you that you have just died! Already, you feel the tug of eternity upon your soul and you struggle to remain tied to this world.

A chill takes the seat of your soul as your remaining spiritual strength bleeds away steadily. However, you are comforted that you have curried the favor of your god, which will greatly improve the course of your resurrection or reincarnation.

Your body will decay beyond its ability to hold your soul in 247 minutes.

DEAD> 'Oh, so one cast is a multi shot
Liurilias says, "Headshot."
DEAD>
You say, "Oh, so one cast is a multi shot."
DEAD>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist becomes more violent, expanding outward from Liurilias.

The whirlwind dissipates as quickly as it formed.
DEAD>
Evro says, "3 hits 2 spells."
DEAD> healme

You are healthy now! Get back to work!
You feel the weakness imparted by your recent death slowly fade away.

>
The deadening murk around Liurilias subsides.
>
Liurilias says, "Head, leg, head."
>
Evro says, "Shouldn't hit twice though...."
>
Liurilias asks, "Did you change stances that time?"
>
You feel the fearlessness endowed by Redeemer's Pride ebb away.
>
Liurilias says, "It's wonky."
> 'You would probably be better at wording that on the forums than I would Liu. Care to post?
You ask, "You would probably be better at wording that on the forums than I would Liu. Care to post?"
> 'Nope
You say, "Nope."
>
Evro nods.
>
Liurilias says, "I think Ricinus already knows about the double tap."
> 'Same stances
You say, "Same stances."
>
Liurilias says, "Strange indeed."
>
Liurilias asks, "Confidence lessened?"
> per

>
You reach out with your senses and hear flaring streams (18/21) of harmonious Elemental mana coursing through the area.
You sense the Will of Winter spell upon you, which will last for about nine roisaen.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>
Evro says, "Should hit once at every range....melee, pole, missle."
>
Liurilias says, "I don't think it's suppose to re-hit the same target, regardless of range pulses."
> 'Yeah
You say, "Yeah."
>
Evro says, "Unless they retrear."
>
Evro says, "Unless they retrea."
>
Evro mutters to himself.
>
Evro says, "Unless they retreat."
>
Liurilias says, "Even then, I don't think it's suppose to re-acquire the same target."
>
Evro says, "Well it is an Aoe."
>
Liurilias says, "Still weird."
>
Liurilias says, "But at least that part they already know about."
>
Liurilias says, "This oddity with Male is something else."
>
Evro says, "If one gets hit at melee and retreats to pole or missle I can see it....but not twice at melee."
>
Liurilias nods.
>
Liurilias says, "Very odd indeed."

---

Evro Casting

Evro gestures.
A whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist rises up around him.
>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist pulses hard before expanding in size, lashing out at everything within reach!
>
The last of the Water leaks away with your frosty breath leaving you fragile and vulnerable.
>
You feel the cursed pall wane away, renewing the vigor to your body.
A feeling of shock washes through your veins like ice water as a swarm of shadowy tendrils coalesce around you, intertwining into a constricting cage.
>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist becomes more violent, expanding outward from Evro.
A misty silver tendril grazes your left leg.
>
The whirlwind of pearlescent silver-grey mist becomes more violent, expanding outward from Evro.
A misty silver tendril grazes your right leg.

The whirlwind dissipates as quickly as it formed.
>
Evro says, "Hit at melee and pole."
> '90%
Liurilias says, "Well, at least it doesn't make you appear cursed/undead to all our spells."
>
You say, "90%."
> 'How much TM Evro?
You ask, "How much TM Evro?"
>
You feel the cursed pall wane away, renewing the vigor to your body.
A feeling of shock washes through your veins like ice water as a swarm of shadowy tendrils coalesce around you, intertwining into a constricting cage.
>
Liurilias asks, "Did one hit?"
>
You hear the faint clanging of the meal bell.
> 'Both hit
Evro says, "Left leg at melee and right leg at pole."
>
You say, "Both hit."
>
Liurilias says, "I'm not seeing hit messages from it."
> 'Took me down to 90%
You say, "Took me down to 90%."
>
Evro says, "611 TM."
> grin
You grin.
>
You feel the cursed pall wane away, renewing the vigor to your body.
A feeling of shock washes through your veins like ice water as a swarm of shadowy tendrils coalesce around you, intertwining into a constricting cage.
>
Liurilias says, "Using a defense malediction fwiw."
> 'How much does that debuff me?
You ask, "How much does that debuff me?"
>
Liurilias says, "Assuming a % reduction."
>
Evro says, "Still shouldn't be able to hit him."
>
You feel the cursed pall wane away, renewing the vigor to your body.
A feeling of shock washes through your veins like ice water as a swarm of shadowy tendrils coalesce around you, intertwining into a constricting cage.
>
Liurilias says, "But I'm not sure how much it's taking off."

~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg

I'm not sure what to say on that.

I mean the synergy is kind of cool. You almost never see any synergy between spells anymore.

And I guess cursed is cursed is cursed.

I suppose we'll have to wait for a GM to weigh in on it.

Also, is Vigil a stat contest spell? Had a couple of younger Clerics throwing it up on me, and it was syphoning my spirit and giving it to them. Obviously this was very undesirable as I was in a fight with another Cleric :P

~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg

Vigil in the past worked by transferring spirit from one with higher spirit to one with lower spirit. Whether the one with higher spirit was the casting cleric or target of the spell didn't matter. So this either sounds like a bug or the mechanics of either spirit or the spell changed. Oone possibility is there's something different with spirit pools now, i.e. even though your spirit percentage was lower, your over-all spirit points were higher since Leilond is so beast.

I'd say it warrants a look and test.

Nikpack

<<Even still -- If a Cleric is at 15% Spirit and I have 100%, I don't want that cleric casting at me to leach my spirit over to them, especially since you can now die from a spirit attack. Should be a contested spell IMO, shouldn't just get to leach spirit for free automatically.

You don't want it or it's game breaking? I don't want Phii to get to melee on any of my characters and slash, but that's not a bug.

It should not be a contested spell. It's designed as a buff. If there's a problem with the mechanic, that's a bug.

I agree, it needs more testing to see if vigil can be used as an offensive weapon. Don't forget, even though it saps spirit from one to another, both target and caster are regenerating spirit as well.

Nikpack

It should be an ACCEPT/DENY spell. I believe there is an Empath 3.0 spell that does this (Im not sure which it was a while back that I updated their lists) where the caster casts and if the target accepts it then the link it made. If they deny or dont respond it is treated as an attack contest. I very much agree with Leilond on this one. With Spirit combat becoming a real thing now as opposed to the wonkyness it had in 2.0, anything that drains spirit should be considered a possible attack. Otherwise all you need to do is siphon off the majority of the persons spirit with vigil then hit them with one of the actual spirit attacks to seal the deal.

~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani

"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."

>>It should be an ACCEPT/DENY spell. I believe there is an Empath 3.0 spell that does this

IIRC, RS for moon mages does this.

---

TG, TG, GL, et al.

"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh

>>Killing someone with Vigil would require you to intentionally drain your spirit health to low, low degrees, which isn't necessarily the smartest thing

No certainly not but it does remain an open possibility that is a little too much of an issue. Im sure its simply an oops didnt think of that sorta deal that theyll fix. I was simply weighing in that this should certainly be an allow or deny spell. Id hate for it to be a contest all the time since then you cant help younger clerics since theyd never break through but on the converse we dont want the aforementioned issues either.

>>IIRC, RS for moon mages does this.

This is one of the few MM spells I dont have experience using. Novel concept that is way too restrictive IMO, but thats not for these boards. I know they need to accept but I was under the impression you couldnt forcibly pull them anymore like in current 2.0 version RS.

~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani

"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."

>In the example I cited, there were like 3 lower level Clerics in the room all siphoning my spirit energy away while I was fighting someone else. It was not fun, especially considering they failed all of the other real debilitation spells they cast at me.

Let's examine this a little more: vigil drains from high, to low.

Meaning they had less spirit health than you, despite siphoning off 3 to your one, you had MORE spirit health than 3 different players pulsing and grabbing bits from you. Spirit damage is hard to inflict (hardish). So unless they were standing around casting CS on each other, there's more to this going on.

---

Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.

>>So unless they were standing around casting CS on each other, there's more to this going on.

It was a battle royal, so I imagine they were casting a bunch of Spirit-eating spells.

~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg

1) It should ask for a confirmation, since it does potentially injure someone.
2) I'd laugh if they all died as a result of Leil dipping below their spirit level and gobbling them all up.

---

When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/

Ok.

I guess I'm just thinking about it from a PvP perspective, and what I would do if I were a Cleric.

If I were a Cleric, I would...

1) Quickly fire off a few capped buff spells to drain my mana hard.
2) Do this in succession with Eylhaar's Feast so I get my mana back in exchange for my Spirit health. The goal would be to try and drain my Spirit health down as far as it would go without dying while maximizing my mana and/or Vitality if need be.
3) Cast Vigil at my opponent(because there's no Skill/Stat check) so his/her Spirit starts to deteriorate because mine is almost to 0%.
4) Wait for our spirits to equalize out at a little over 50%, then RELEASE the Vigil.
5) Put a Spirit regen spell on myself and start casting some heavy Spirit eating spells because my opponent is already at 50%.

Would something like this not be possible?

Also, I prepared and cast Dispel in Test to try and remove a Vigil that was on me, but it didn't work.

~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg

>>You'd probably die.

Why, is that not how those spells work? Did I miss something in the spell descriptions?

~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg

>>Why, is that not how those spells work? Did I miss something in the spell descriptions?

EF is not a finely controlled spell and can easily take a lot more spirit than you intended, especially if you get the addiction effect.

The only other direct spirit damage spell that doesn't put a cleric at risk of death at low spirit is chill spirit and it's spirit damage isn't very high. Using soul attrition at low spirit levels is a great way to die from a spirit death.

You're "what I would do" just isn't very plausible.

Another thing with vigil is that it's goal is to balance spirit between the cleric and the target.

So if at any point the target gets lower in spirit than the cleric, the effect reverses. Plus the balancing effect isn't an instant process. If I'm at 25% spirit and you're at 100%, it doesn't instantly take us both to 50/50.

>>If I were a Cleric, I would...

Well, if you ran through steps 1-4 the caster and target would end up equalizing out at around 82%. At least that's what my test did. And yes, a self cast Dispel won't get rid of Vigil, but if you cast it at someone else it will. It actually removes all Vigil links at once, not just the one affecting you.

And yes, Clerics can just release the spell.

AGM Ricinus
Dev Systems
Cleric Advocate

Ok, thanks for the testing :)

~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg

Have to agree with Leilond here. If it's a debilitating spell, it should have a contest. It's not as bad as Heart Link/Nissa's Binding is right now, but it's along the same lines. Meant to be a beneficial spell, but can be absolutely abused in pvp.

Also, if HH bypasses shield, shouldn't it function the way that burn will function in 3.0? Since not contesting shield (and parry) means essentially cutting the target's evasion in half, I wonder how HH is currently being contested in 3.0. If it already contests like burn, nevermind. If not, can we look at that?

---

Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."

I thought the parry-adds-to-evasion mechanic for single defense combat contests was one of the old plans that was nixed. My understanding is that DFA, at least burn, would contest only evasion still, at a bonused rate, much like now, but the defense bonus was not necessarily tied to parry/shield skill.

>>Newp - not true anymore. You only get the defences you are stanced to.

Of course you have to have parry stanced to get any benefit from parry. You don't just get your parry ranks applied without anything stanced.