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Another cyclic alternative I've thought about but hasn't really made me shout "Eureka!" is the notion of cyclic spells requiring more and more mana to be sustained. Moongate already has this, and it wouldn't be quite as aggressive as MG's increases, but the idea would be that the act of maintaining that kind of energy in a cyclic fashion causes a haze of magical complexity around you, causing spells to be harder to cast and/or maintain. This haze would take some time to fall away (shorter than it took to create it, though).
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
DR-SOCHARIS
ORBITAL303
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 03:57 PM CST
I like a slightly modified version of the drain rate idea where only the one skill taught by that cyclic is affected and it builds up over time to being nothing. Maybe that's closer to a bell curve...anyway, cast get exp for a few minutes, then get less exp for a few minutes, then get less exp...then taper off to a point where your mindstate in that skill hovers at 2/34 when you look at drain rate vs exp into pool rate.
- Starlear -
- Starlear -
ORBITAL303
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 04:04 PM CST
Double post, but also part of the current issue is that mana level is irrelevant with cyclics in that I can throw up a minimum prep AC and lock warding as easily as if I used a 30 mana one. I expect the a lot of the people who are doing the set it and forget it thing with cyclics are using so little mana that really, with their skill, that amount should not tea h anymore.
- Starlear -
- Starlear -
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 04:06 PM CST
>>I like a slightly modified version of the drain rate idea where only the one skill taught by that cyclic is affected and it builds up over time to being nothing.
At the very least, cyclics teach 3 skills. However, this leaves it squarely in the "If you're not constantly running a cyclic, you're doing it wrong" problem - Everybody would run around keeping a cyclic going with no reason not to.
The only real mitigation to THAT issue would be for the haze's duration to continue getting extended even after it hits that steady state. If you go for 2 days without dropping your cyclic, you're going to have a bad time training your magic skills for a while.
But then, that just encourages you to leave yourself logged in and AFK to drain that penalty, which isn't a good thing to encourage. You'd also have people that royally screw themselves over by leaving it on too long and then assist when their augmentation training is in the dumps and they don't know why.
See how it gets a bit messy? :G:
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
At the very least, cyclics teach 3 skills. However, this leaves it squarely in the "If you're not constantly running a cyclic, you're doing it wrong" problem - Everybody would run around keeping a cyclic going with no reason not to.
The only real mitigation to THAT issue would be for the haze's duration to continue getting extended even after it hits that steady state. If you go for 2 days without dropping your cyclic, you're going to have a bad time training your magic skills for a while.
But then, that just encourages you to leave yourself logged in and AFK to drain that penalty, which isn't a good thing to encourage. You'd also have people that royally screw themselves over by leaving it on too long and then assist when their augmentation training is in the dumps and they don't know why.
See how it gets a bit messy? :G:
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
OLSONM6
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 04:07 PM CST
>I like a slightly modified version of the drain rate idea where only the one skill taught by that cyclic is affected and it builds up over time to being nothing.
I don't like that my overall drain rate would be affected by using a cyclic. I'm OK with the idea that the specific skill(s) being taught by a cyclic would have a lower drain rate, though. Could be explained by the fact that you're spending so much effort maintaining the pattern that you can't really think about what you're doing to figure out how to do it better later. Once you stop focusing on maintaining the pattern, you can then better absorb what you were doing.
I don't like that my overall drain rate would be affected by using a cyclic. I'm OK with the idea that the specific skill(s) being taught by a cyclic would have a lower drain rate, though. Could be explained by the fact that you're spending so much effort maintaining the pattern that you can't really think about what you're doing to figure out how to do it better later. Once you stop focusing on maintaining the pattern, you can then better absorb what you were doing.
DYERA7
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 04:10 PM CST
>the notion of cyclic spells requiring more and more mana to be sustained.
Sounds fine to me. Would this haze build-up affect other kinds of spells or just cyclics?
Sounds fine to me. Would this haze build-up affect other kinds of spells or just cyclics?
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 04:15 PM CST
Another alternative EXP we are working on for a probable 3.1 release. Comments welcome:
>research bluh
Usage: RESEARCH <option> <rt>
RESEARCH is used in conjunction with the Gauge Flow spell to allow magicians to perform basic research into manipulating the mana streams. In effect, this allows experienced magicians to learn more about a skill or related group of skills without directly casting.
Unlike most actions, research actions have a customizable RT, from 10-300 seconds. Multiple research actions are combined into a research project. Once you have accumulated enough RT to meet (or exceed) the project requirement, you gain the rewards for the project.
Current projects:
Tier 0:
Fundamental Research ("FUNDAMENTAL")
Tier 1:
Augmentation Patterns Research ("AUGMENTATION")
Mana Stream Theory ("STREAM")
Sorcerous Research ("SORCERY") *
Utility Patterns Research ("UTILITY")
Warding Patterns Research ("WARDING")
Tier 2:
High Energy Spellcasting ("ENERGY") *
Mana Field Theory ("FIELD") *
Spell Research ("SPELL") *
Projects marked with an asterisk are potentially unsafe.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
>research bluh
Usage: RESEARCH <option> <rt>
RESEARCH is used in conjunction with the Gauge Flow spell to allow magicians to perform basic research into manipulating the mana streams. In effect, this allows experienced magicians to learn more about a skill or related group of skills without directly casting.
Unlike most actions, research actions have a customizable RT, from 10-300 seconds. Multiple research actions are combined into a research project. Once you have accumulated enough RT to meet (or exceed) the project requirement, you gain the rewards for the project.
Current projects:
Tier 0:
Fundamental Research ("FUNDAMENTAL")
Tier 1:
Augmentation Patterns Research ("AUGMENTATION")
Mana Stream Theory ("STREAM")
Sorcerous Research ("SORCERY") *
Utility Patterns Research ("UTILITY")
Warding Patterns Research ("WARDING")
Tier 2:
High Energy Spellcasting ("ENERGY") *
Mana Field Theory ("FIELD") *
Spell Research ("SPELL") *
Projects marked with an asterisk are potentially unsafe.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Optimizing Your Magic Experience
12/13/2013 04:10 PM CST
>This suggestion is that when running an ability where you learn passive experience, you suffer a penalty to your experience drain rate. There would also have to be a flag where you say "Don't teach me any cyclic experience and in turn don't reduce my drain rate". Additionally, if you're using a cyclic at a rate where you'd gain no experience (keeping an easy one up, for instance), you would suffer no drain rate penalty.
Offhand, this strikes me as a bad idea, as it's basically a bandaid fix to the cyclic xp problem.
>Another cyclic alternative I've thought about but hasn't really made me shout "Eureka!" is the notion of cyclic spells requiring more and more mana to be sustained.
This, to me, is a more feasible solution, but would have to be carefully tweaked by cyclic. For example, Empaths shouldn't be heavily penalized for having a GS up, nor Clerics for Rezz, but I can understand penalizing, say, AC, GHS, AD, etc.
I still think a significant point of cyclics is forcing a choice with what spell you run. A Cleric cannot, for example, run GHS and HYH-MALE. This forces a choice between TM protection and offensive debilitation. Many guilds don't have a breadth of combat cyclic that necessitate such a choice, rendering this kind of moot; I think a better place to start is by making more spells cyclic or releasing more cyclics so putting one up is an actual compromise.
That said, I think the bellcurve xp model is a reasonable trade off to xp gain. If you're in combat and have already locked a skill (say, Debilitation with HYH-MALE), you can continue to leave it up without negatively impacting much of anything.
I like Aftermath's idea of eliminating the difficulty range on a handful of spells, and allowing/adding an option to cast at difficulty. It obviously won't work for all spells (Moon Gate), but it seems quite practical for many/all Wards, Augs, TMs and Debilitation spells. Seeing as that eliminating spell clutter and redundancy has always been a goal, I think this would solve a couple issues with one stone.
Offhand, this strikes me as a bad idea, as it's basically a bandaid fix to the cyclic xp problem.
>Another cyclic alternative I've thought about but hasn't really made me shout "Eureka!" is the notion of cyclic spells requiring more and more mana to be sustained.
This, to me, is a more feasible solution, but would have to be carefully tweaked by cyclic. For example, Empaths shouldn't be heavily penalized for having a GS up, nor Clerics for Rezz, but I can understand penalizing, say, AC, GHS, AD, etc.
I still think a significant point of cyclics is forcing a choice with what spell you run. A Cleric cannot, for example, run GHS and HYH-MALE. This forces a choice between TM protection and offensive debilitation. Many guilds don't have a breadth of combat cyclic that necessitate such a choice, rendering this kind of moot; I think a better place to start is by making more spells cyclic or releasing more cyclics so putting one up is an actual compromise.
That said, I think the bellcurve xp model is a reasonable trade off to xp gain. If you're in combat and have already locked a skill (say, Debilitation with HYH-MALE), you can continue to leave it up without negatively impacting much of anything.
I like Aftermath's idea of eliminating the difficulty range on a handful of spells, and allowing/adding an option to cast at difficulty. It obviously won't work for all spells (Moon Gate), but it seems quite practical for many/all Wards, Augs, TMs and Debilitation spells. Seeing as that eliminating spell clutter and redundancy has always been a goal, I think this would solve a couple issues with one stone.
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 04:22 PM CST
>>I think a better place to start is by making more spells cyclic or releasing more cyclics so putting one up is an actual compromise.
The problem with this is that it should be a choice to use A cyclic spell, not just WHICH cyclic spell to use. Cyclics are intended to be rare, and the act of using one should be a choice (rather than an assumption).
Perhaps, with the nature of Form and Khri training, this paradigm is going to shift, but I think right now we're all a little bit worn out of (re)writing spells, so adding new spells isn't a viable short term solution.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
The problem with this is that it should be a choice to use A cyclic spell, not just WHICH cyclic spell to use. Cyclics are intended to be rare, and the act of using one should be a choice (rather than an assumption).
Perhaps, with the nature of Form and Khri training, this paradigm is going to shift, but I think right now we're all a little bit worn out of (re)writing spells, so adding new spells isn't a viable short term solution.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
ROBERTDH
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 04:34 PM CST
>the notion of cyclic spells requiring more and more mana to be sustained.
I like this a lot more than bringing back mind murk, or draining concentration (systems that do drain concentration seem awfully unbalanced as it is), so long as cyclics don't require recasting more often than other buffs do. Maybe make Duration relevant to this. Conceptually it feels more like harnessed spells, which appeals to my nostalgia.
Because Necromancers.
-TEVESHSZAT
I like this a lot more than bringing back mind murk, or draining concentration (systems that do drain concentration seem awfully unbalanced as it is), so long as cyclics don't require recasting more often than other buffs do. Maybe make Duration relevant to this. Conceptually it feels more like harnessed spells, which appeals to my nostalgia.
Because Necromancers.
-TEVESHSZAT
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 04:46 PM CST
>...you gain the rewards for the project.
What's the reward? XP? If so, I would find this thematically much preferable to spamming the same spell over and over again.
>The problem with this is that it should be a choice to use A cyclic spell, not just WHICH cyclic spell to use. Cyclics are intended to be rare, and the act of using one should be a choice (rather than an assumption).
If this was the intention, I think it missed it's mark. Many cyclics are, I feel, nearly fundamental boons for both that guilds function and theme. I don't envision there being anything particularly exceptionally difficult about many cyclics (in theory/practice), but only allowing mages to maintain one seems like a totally reasonable trade off. Seeing a paladin glistening with holy power shouldn't be ODD, it should be typical, with the decision being 'Should I use HoW or TR?', not 'Should I use a cyclic spell?' If the intent from day one was 'and we're releasing these incredibly rare spells of which there are very few (except for most guilds, which have a few), and you will only occasionally see used', I don't think that was what was produced.
RITUALS on the other hand, precisely fit that bill.
What's the reward? XP? If so, I would find this thematically much preferable to spamming the same spell over and over again.
>The problem with this is that it should be a choice to use A cyclic spell, not just WHICH cyclic spell to use. Cyclics are intended to be rare, and the act of using one should be a choice (rather than an assumption).
If this was the intention, I think it missed it's mark. Many cyclics are, I feel, nearly fundamental boons for both that guilds function and theme. I don't envision there being anything particularly exceptionally difficult about many cyclics (in theory/practice), but only allowing mages to maintain one seems like a totally reasonable trade off. Seeing a paladin glistening with holy power shouldn't be ODD, it should be typical, with the decision being 'Should I use HoW or TR?', not 'Should I use a cyclic spell?' If the intent from day one was 'and we're releasing these incredibly rare spells of which there are very few (except for most guilds, which have a few), and you will only occasionally see used', I don't think that was what was produced.
RITUALS on the other hand, precisely fit that bill.
HAMBARD
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 04:47 PM CST
Well, it would sure stink to have an abundance of cyclic spells as a guild with this direction :(
I understand the need to balance, but this is turning into something a bit beyond that given the spells I can even choose from as a bard.
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
AIM - RykenDR
I understand the need to balance, but this is turning into something a bit beyond that given the spells I can even choose from as a bard.
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
AIM - RykenDR
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 04:49 PM CST
>>What's the reward? XP?
Currently we're looking at completion of a single-skill project coming out with Mindlock in the skill. Multi-skill projects a bit less so.
This would not be fast by any stretch of the imagination, as we'd pin it to the number of minutes of continual effort we think you should put in to get ML'd at a skill. But it'd be considerably more convenient.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Currently we're looking at completion of a single-skill project coming out with Mindlock in the skill. Multi-skill projects a bit less so.
This would not be fast by any stretch of the imagination, as we'd pin it to the number of minutes of continual effort we think you should put in to get ML'd at a skill. But it'd be considerably more convenient.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
ALGOTHI
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 04:55 PM CST
>This would not be fast by any stretch of the imagination, as we'd pin it to the number of minutes of continual effort we think you should put in to get ML'd at a skill. But it'd be considerably more convenient.
I think its an interesting idea that has a lot of merit, and I think something like this would be very useful for guilds that have a significant lack of spells in certain casting groups at certain exp levels.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
I think its an interesting idea that has a lot of merit, and I think something like this would be very useful for guilds that have a significant lack of spells in certain casting groups at certain exp levels.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 04:56 PM CST
>>I understand the need to balance, but this is turning into something a bit beyond that given the spells I can even choose from as a bard.
Agreed. Bards will need special handling for cyclics in a way that manages to achieve the same balance.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Agreed. Bards will need special handling for cyclics in a way that manages to achieve the same balance.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 05:01 PM CST
>I think its an interesting idea that has a lot of merit, and I think something like this would be very useful for guilds that have a significant lack of spells in certain casting groups at certain exp levels.
+four billion
This would solve the problem of selecting spells solely for training purposes.
+four billion
This would solve the problem of selecting spells solely for training purposes.
DUNTS2
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 05:07 PM CST
>Well, it would sure stink to have an abundance of cyclic spells as a guild with this direction :(
>I understand the need to balance, but this is turning into something a bit beyond that given the spells I can even choose from as a bard.
Yeah, I realize this is a general, non-guild-specific discussion, but it does bear in mind considering that changing cyclics should be thought of with a mind towards that fact that there is a guild that exists that is very cyclic-heavy. This in addition to other recent changes, such as the introduction of more feats that focus on things dear to the Bards' guild that are already weighing upon some of us.
Not saying that I don't like some of the proposed possible changes to cyclics and their experience model.
-Broichan Leshyahen
> hum tuneless
You hum a tuneless tune.
>I understand the need to balance, but this is turning into something a bit beyond that given the spells I can even choose from as a bard.
Yeah, I realize this is a general, non-guild-specific discussion, but it does bear in mind considering that changing cyclics should be thought of with a mind towards that fact that there is a guild that exists that is very cyclic-heavy. This in addition to other recent changes, such as the introduction of more feats that focus on things dear to the Bards' guild that are already weighing upon some of us.
Not saying that I don't like some of the proposed possible changes to cyclics and their experience model.
-Broichan Leshyahen
> hum tuneless
You hum a tuneless tune.
CRYPTODYNAMIC
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 05:28 PM CST
I really like the research idea, from both mechanical and RP standpoints.
- Miskton
- Miskton
BADGOPHER
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 06:03 PM CST
>This suggestion is that when running an ability where you learn passive experience, you suffer a penalty to your experience drain rate.
No.
That's how excited that plan makes me. Just no.
>Research system
Sounds awesome.
Would it be an entirely magic based system or would Barb/thieves be allowed to research, since they don't use core magic?
Please bear in mind whatever you do to 'passive' exp will reflect heavily (and possibly badly?) on thieves and barbs, since they are almost entirely passive, without any non-passive training mechanics.
No.
That's how excited that plan makes me. Just no.
>Research system
Sounds awesome.
Would it be an entirely magic based system or would Barb/thieves be allowed to research, since they don't use core magic?
Please bear in mind whatever you do to 'passive' exp will reflect heavily (and possibly badly?) on thieves and barbs, since they are almost entirely passive, without any non-passive training mechanics.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 06:11 PM CST
>>Would it be an entirely magic based system or would Barb/thieves be allowed to research, since they don't use core magic?
Right now we're conceiving it as a MU thing, but it wouldn't be horribly difficult to add support for Thieves and Barbs. The only problem in that case is thematic; there's something conceptually weird about a Barbarian researching his roars, for example.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Right now we're conceiving it as a MU thing, but it wouldn't be horribly difficult to add support for Thieves and Barbs. The only problem in that case is thematic; there's something conceptually weird about a Barbarian researching his roars, for example.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 06:12 PM CST
>>That's how excited that plan makes me. Just no.
That's generally the reaction I expected.
>>cyclics should be thought of with a mind towards that fact that there is a guild that exists that is very cyclic-heavy.
Agreed. All of these penalties, though, can be mitigated somewhat for bards. For instance, the bell curve approach could give you guys a higher peak, which will end up in more net experience (and make cyclics more useful for training). The Mindstate approach (let's say it just applies to magic skills) could have a lesser effect, and the increased-mana (Scaling) approach could have a longer tail.
Some pros and cons of the different approaches:
Bell
Scaling
Mindstate
I think at the end of the day, the Mindstate approach is a non-starter. The Scaling Mana and Bell approaches are at least worth investigating.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
That's generally the reaction I expected.
>>cyclics should be thought of with a mind towards that fact that there is a guild that exists that is very cyclic-heavy.
Agreed. All of these penalties, though, can be mitigated somewhat for bards. For instance, the bell curve approach could give you guys a higher peak, which will end up in more net experience (and make cyclics more useful for training). The Mindstate approach (let's say it just applies to magic skills) could have a lesser effect, and the increased-mana (Scaling) approach could have a longer tail.
Some pros and cons of the different approaches:
Bell
| Pros | Cons |
| Pretty easy to understand | Reinforces trivial repetitition |
| Easy to control amount of experience / second | Doesn't really change a whole lot for people constantly running a script or triggers |
| Safe from accidentally forgetting that it's on and getting busted for scripting | |
| Stays on after experience stops |
Scaling
| Pros | Cons |
| Natural-seeming penalty | Can't be maintained indefinitely |
| Experience is partially a function of your mana pool | Affects other spellcasting as well |
| Can be improved with existing feats | Continues to impact after finishing |
Mindstate
| Pros | Cons |
| Gives a clear answer to whether or not to use a cyclic | Feels pretty hacky |
| Mitigates extra experience pretty squarely | Reduces unrelated experience, which doesn't make a TON of sense. |
I think at the end of the day, the Mindstate approach is a non-starter. The Scaling Mana and Bell approaches are at least worth investigating.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
AJATHAER151
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 06:15 PM CST
>Please bear in mind whatever you do to 'passive' exp will reflect heavily (and possibly badly?) on thieves and barbs, since they are almost entirely passive, without any non-passive training mechanics.
Babrs roars are not passive.(forms "if activated in sustained combat" are truly cyclic in nature)...Not tested in the actual test server but true in prime currently.
Thieves must ambush a target to work a skill. And our khri have a set duration and require concentration that is very limited. very "mana" and "spell" like in nature.
Deadly force, is the force which a person uses, causing—or that a person knows, or should know, would create a substantial risk of causing—death or serious bodily harm. Deadly Force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort,
Babrs roars are not passive.(forms "if activated in sustained combat" are truly cyclic in nature)...Not tested in the actual test server but true in prime currently.
Thieves must ambush a target to work a skill. And our khri have a set duration and require concentration that is very limited. very "mana" and "spell" like in nature.
Deadly force, is the force which a person uses, causing—or that a person knows, or should know, would create a substantial risk of causing—death or serious bodily harm. Deadly Force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort,
BADGOPHER
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 06:17 PM CST
>there's something conceptually weird about a Barbarian researching his roars
This may mean I need to re-read the original proposal, but why? Every group has scholars and historians and theorists. Every shonen anime has taught me that you can totally introspect yourself to level over level 9000.
It might not follow the same academic rigor as magic, on the whole, and might (probably should) require a different research facility, but I could see that sort of research working well for barbs and thieves. They don't utilize the academically founded schools of magic, but they do use supernatural abilities which function according to a set of fairly understandable rules, in-game.
For an example, what about fighters creating new fighting styles by analyzing moves, animals, etc.? The most obvious example could be Jeet Kune Do, Bruce Lee's fighting style.
This may mean I need to re-read the original proposal, but why? Every group has scholars and historians and theorists. Every shonen anime has taught me that you can totally introspect yourself to level over level 9000.
It might not follow the same academic rigor as magic, on the whole, and might (probably should) require a different research facility, but I could see that sort of research working well for barbs and thieves. They don't utilize the academically founded schools of magic, but they do use supernatural abilities which function according to a set of fairly understandable rules, in-game.
For an example, what about fighters creating new fighting styles by analyzing moves, animals, etc.? The most obvious example could be Jeet Kune Do, Bruce Lee's fighting style.
PINEAL
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 06:19 PM CST
From another Bard's perspective, the only part of this conversation that really concerns me would be losing the ability to run my cyclics indefinitely.
I'll take zero experience rewarded over that any day of the week.
I'll take zero experience rewarded over that any day of the week.
ILLIENA
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 06:20 PM CST
> The Scaling Mana and Bell approaches are at least worth investigating.
Is there room to just up the mana costs of cyclics? Not scaling, simply across the board. Currently, keeping up a cyclic isn't a trade off because we have enough mana to do that and also cast all the spells we want. Maybe the cost should be increased to the point where that is no longer the case.
Is there room to just up the mana costs of cyclics? Not scaling, simply across the board. Currently, keeping up a cyclic isn't a trade off because we have enough mana to do that and also cast all the spells we want. Maybe the cost should be increased to the point where that is no longer the case.
BADGOPHER
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 06:22 PM CST
>Babrs roars are not passive. Thieves must ambush
Neither of those function on the cyclic pattern and it should be self evident, as such, they're not particularly germane to this conversation. Show me how to, as a thief, train augmentation or utility without using a passive, cyclic-style, ability.
Show me a barb that uses pure berserks to train. Meditations and forms follow a cyclic-style exp pattern.
Khri and forms are not spells. They are activated abilities which grant exp rewards across the duration of running for no further input or effort, while consuming a resource or lowering the pool of one.
A spell is a single cast, a single reward of exp, and a single mana hit.
Neither of those function on the cyclic pattern and it should be self evident, as such, they're not particularly germane to this conversation. Show me how to, as a thief, train augmentation or utility without using a passive, cyclic-style, ability.
Show me a barb that uses pure berserks to train. Meditations and forms follow a cyclic-style exp pattern.
Khri and forms are not spells. They are activated abilities which grant exp rewards across the duration of running for no further input or effort, while consuming a resource or lowering the pool of one.
A spell is a single cast, a single reward of exp, and a single mana hit.
MOCKERJB
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 06:37 PM CST
I love this "research" exp idea.
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 07:30 PM CST
>>Khri and forms are not spells. They are activated abilities which grant exp rewards across the duration of running for no further input or effort, while consuming a resource or lowering the pool of one.
Isn't that exactly what a cyclic is in 3.0? Aside from the semantics of the actual word 'spell', they behave identically.
>>Is there room to just up the mana costs of cyclics? Not scaling, simply across the board. Currently, keeping up a cyclic isn't a trade off because we have enough mana to do that and also cast all the spells we want. Maybe the cost should be increased to the point where that is no longer the case.
That's another interesting idea. Right now, cyclics have such low mana costs that there's virtually no long-term penalty even if you're just using raw attunement. If the base mana for cyclic mana levels was bumped to 20 and it scaled up to 50 (for instance), one would have to be pretty active in harnessing / cambrinth to keep their cyclic from nuking their harness pool. Causing cyclics to actually require maintenance to use (instead of Raw Channeling being a free pass for experience) is an interesting approach as well, and lets you charge up some high-capacity cambrinth if you want to use it for a longer amount of time.
Bards would get SOME special treatment to handle the fact that at intro levels they can't well pump 15 mana into a spell for very long no matter what. It may not be possible to prevent low-level bards from running their cyclics for a long time, but if the mana range is appropriate they'd grow out of using the intro ones fast enough that they'd end up in the realm of mana-management like anybody else.
Interesting idea, not necessarily sold on it but I like it as a discussion topic.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Isn't that exactly what a cyclic is in 3.0? Aside from the semantics of the actual word 'spell', they behave identically.
>>Is there room to just up the mana costs of cyclics? Not scaling, simply across the board. Currently, keeping up a cyclic isn't a trade off because we have enough mana to do that and also cast all the spells we want. Maybe the cost should be increased to the point where that is no longer the case.
That's another interesting idea. Right now, cyclics have such low mana costs that there's virtually no long-term penalty even if you're just using raw attunement. If the base mana for cyclic mana levels was bumped to 20 and it scaled up to 50 (for instance), one would have to be pretty active in harnessing / cambrinth to keep their cyclic from nuking their harness pool. Causing cyclics to actually require maintenance to use (instead of Raw Channeling being a free pass for experience) is an interesting approach as well, and lets you charge up some high-capacity cambrinth if you want to use it for a longer amount of time.
Bards would get SOME special treatment to handle the fact that at intro levels they can't well pump 15 mana into a spell for very long no matter what. It may not be possible to prevent low-level bards from running their cyclics for a long time, but if the mana range is appropriate they'd grow out of using the intro ones fast enough that they'd end up in the realm of mana-management like anybody else.
Interesting idea, not necessarily sold on it but I like it as a discussion topic.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
ALGOTHI
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 07:40 PM CST
>Right now we're conceiving it as a MU thing, but it wouldn't be horribly difficult to add support for Thieves and Barbs. The only problem in that case is thematic; there's something conceptually weird about a Barbarian researching his roars, for example.
A little late for this, but for Barbs and Thieves we could just reskin it as deep forms of Meditation, vision quests, etc. I think something like that would preserve the mechs while keeping a sufficiently thematic cover.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
A little late for this, but for Barbs and Thieves we could just reskin it as deep forms of Meditation, vision quests, etc. I think something like that would preserve the mechs while keeping a sufficiently thematic cover.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
ROBERTDH
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 07:52 PM CST
>Is there room to just up the mana costs of cyclics? Not scaling, simply across the board. Currently, keeping up a cyclic isn't a trade off because we have enough mana to do that and also cast all the spells we want. Maybe the cost should be increased to the point where that is no longer the case.
Oh. That sounds stupidly simple. Why don't we just do that?
What prevented Enchantees from running forever under 2.whatever?
Because Necromancers.
-TEVESHSZAT
Oh. That sounds stupidly simple. Why don't we just do that?
What prevented Enchantees from running forever under 2.whatever?
Because Necromancers.
-TEVESHSZAT
ILLIENA
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 07:53 PM CST
> What prevented Enchantees from running forever under 2.whatever?
With one exception, they had a built in duration after which they ended. But you could immediately restart them. Bards were easy mode.
With one exception, they had a built in duration after which they ended. But you could immediately restart them. Bards were easy mode.
BADGOPHER
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 08:00 PM CST
>Isn't that exactly what a cyclic is in 3.0? Aside from the semantics of the actual word 'spell', they behave identically.
Actually, yes, I was trying to explain that while khri aren't 'cast' spells they are, basically, cyclics without using the word magic, but was trying to differentiate them from a spell like PFE, fireball, etc.
Actually, yes, I was trying to explain that while khri aren't 'cast' spells they are, basically, cyclics without using the word magic, but was trying to differentiate them from a spell like PFE, fireball, etc.
AJATHAER151
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 08:03 PM CST
why don't cyclics stay the way they are but put a timer internally to award xp with a cleric commune length duration cyclcs stay perma buffs but only award xp once at cast and then again every 20 minutes.
heck even the commune xp gains could stay currently Eluned commune is a one time shot of around 8/34 with 600 theurgy.
Deadly force, is the force which a person uses, causing—or that a person knows, or should know, would create a substantial risk of causing—death or serious bodily harm. Deadly Force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort,
heck even the commune xp gains could stay currently Eluned commune is a one time shot of around 8/34 with 600 theurgy.
Deadly force, is the force which a person uses, causing—or that a person knows, or should know, would create a substantial risk of causing—death or serious bodily harm. Deadly Force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort,
ALEPH-ONE
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 08:08 PM CST
Socharis, I like your first cyclic idea (reducing other skills' drain). That way I could have two scenarios:
1. Heavy Training/Combat. I'd turn off cyclic exp (or, ideally, switch to the low-level bell curve we see now), and mainly use cyclics for their useful effects.
2. Light Training/Roleplaying. I'd switch to the second mode, upping cyclic exp but reducing other skills (which wouldn't matter as much since I'm not training much). It's kind of a nice way to keep a little something going when I'm not training many skills.
About the Research idea: I like it tentatively. It sounds a little bit like "press button X, gain exp", which seems a little too easy -- but I like its potential. I like that you added risk for more reward too. I'd like to see it with the possibility of more complexity, such as different actions potentially rewarding differently (maybe it's better to try X when you see Y result?), and possible use of different enchanted materials in the process.
-- Player of Eyuve
1. Heavy Training/Combat. I'd turn off cyclic exp (or, ideally, switch to the low-level bell curve we see now), and mainly use cyclics for their useful effects.
2. Light Training/Roleplaying. I'd switch to the second mode, upping cyclic exp but reducing other skills (which wouldn't matter as much since I'm not training much). It's kind of a nice way to keep a little something going when I'm not training many skills.
About the Research idea: I like it tentatively. It sounds a little bit like "press button X, gain exp", which seems a little too easy -- but I like its potential. I like that you added risk for more reward too. I'd like to see it with the possibility of more complexity, such as different actions potentially rewarding differently (maybe it's better to try X when you see Y result?), and possible use of different enchanted materials in the process.
-- Player of Eyuve
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 08:17 PM CST
>>About the Research idea: I like it tentatively. It sounds a little bit like "press button X, gain exp", which seems a little too easy -- but I like its potential. I like that you added risk for more reward too. I'd like to see it with the possibility of more complexity, such as different actions potentially rewarding differently (maybe it's better to try X when you see Y result?), and possible use of different enchanted materials in the process.
I was just sitting here contemplating quick time events when I read your post. I dunno if I can make it work, particularly for a 3.1 release, but I'll continue contemplating.
And yeah, the top tier research projects are designed to be the most efficient bits per time possible in the research system (not mind locking, but spread across multiple skills). But, yes, a chance for a "whoops."
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
I was just sitting here contemplating quick time events when I read your post. I dunno if I can make it work, particularly for a 3.1 release, but I'll continue contemplating.
And yeah, the top tier research projects are designed to be the most efficient bits per time possible in the research system (not mind locking, but spread across multiple skills). But, yes, a chance for a "whoops."
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 08:23 PM CST
>>why don't cyclics stay the way they are but put a timer internally to award xp with a cleric commune length duration cyclcs stay perma buffs but only award xp once at cast and then again every 20 minutes.
That's essentially the same thing as the bell curve model, except with the bell curve model you have to actually sustain the cyclic instead of casting/release at super high mana (thereby taking basically no mana drain for a lot of experience).
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
That's essentially the same thing as the bell curve model, except with the bell curve model you have to actually sustain the cyclic instead of casting/release at super high mana (thereby taking basically no mana drain for a lot of experience).
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 08:26 PM CST
>Isn't that exactly what a cyclic is in 3.0? Aside from the semantics of the actual word 'spell', they behave identically.
Gods above, I wish you'd written that in response to when I said just that in the Barb folder and got shouted at.
>It sounds a little bit like "press button X, gain exp", which seems a little too easy -- but I like its potential.
I think we need to recognize that the game itself is a skinner box; do x thing that takes y seconds of RT, and gain z xp. Passively, you can learn a number of skills, and the GMs seem to want to get away from that, which makes sense for somethings, but not others. If you need to spend 5m spamming PREP [spell], CAST, I don't think that's any different MECHANICALLY than typing RESEARCH [topic] 300 and waiting it out. However, thematically and with respect to diversity of what's trainable, I vastly prefer having more control than less over HOW I train.
And all that aside, doing away with excessive passive xp is a good goal, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that most guilds can sit in combat, safely, and continue to gain easy xp. At this point, training a handful of armors, shield, evasion, parry, and defending all require effectively 0 RT. While there's some risk associated with doing just that, many trainable critters are effectively risk free, or at least maintainable at basically minimal risk with a scant set of inputs.
I'm not sure why the GMs are so against the notion of similar training paradigms for magic/lore/survival, but it'd be nice if you could maintain a similar number of skills, as passively, without stepping foot in combat. Mind you, I think adding 'risk' to the equation is fine, which is one reason I find these research projects to be so promising.
Gods above, I wish you'd written that in response to when I said just that in the Barb folder and got shouted at.
>It sounds a little bit like "press button X, gain exp", which seems a little too easy -- but I like its potential.
I think we need to recognize that the game itself is a skinner box; do x thing that takes y seconds of RT, and gain z xp. Passively, you can learn a number of skills, and the GMs seem to want to get away from that, which makes sense for somethings, but not others. If you need to spend 5m spamming PREP [spell], CAST, I don't think that's any different MECHANICALLY than typing RESEARCH [topic] 300 and waiting it out. However, thematically and with respect to diversity of what's trainable, I vastly prefer having more control than less over HOW I train.
And all that aside, doing away with excessive passive xp is a good goal, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that most guilds can sit in combat, safely, and continue to gain easy xp. At this point, training a handful of armors, shield, evasion, parry, and defending all require effectively 0 RT. While there's some risk associated with doing just that, many trainable critters are effectively risk free, or at least maintainable at basically minimal risk with a scant set of inputs.
I'm not sure why the GMs are so against the notion of similar training paradigms for magic/lore/survival, but it'd be nice if you could maintain a similar number of skills, as passively, without stepping foot in combat. Mind you, I think adding 'risk' to the equation is fine, which is one reason I find these research projects to be so promising.
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 08:36 PM CST
>> we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that most guilds can sit in combat, safely, and continue to gain easy xp
I'm not sure if you've checked out the new exp curve in test, but that's less true in 3.1 than it was in 3.0. A number of people will find themselves needing to move up the latter after the cushy comfort of 3.0.
>>it'd be nice if you could maintain a similar number of skills, as passively, without stepping foot in combat.
I agree to some extent - I agree that more skills should be learnable in tandem while not in combat. However, striking a balance where adding more non-combat skills that work together doesn't just also increase the number of combat skills that can be trained together is important too.
>>If you need to spend 5m spamming PREP [spell], CAST, I don't think that's any different MECHANICALLY than typing RESEARCH [topic] 300 and waiting it out.
It's not worlds different, but it's something, and specifically something different. That alone is nice.
In general, the ideal world would be one that doesn't have the grind - You go on fun adventures and explore the game and have a great time, and you're rewarded with a lot of experience for doing it. Right now, we don't have a lot of systems that engage you that way, but we're working on more. I've got one that I plan to preview pretty soon that's got a lot of awesome potential. If there were more ways that the active player could engage and enjoy the game, having slower but grinding ways to advance would probably be the counterbalance.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
I'm not sure if you've checked out the new exp curve in test, but that's less true in 3.1 than it was in 3.0. A number of people will find themselves needing to move up the latter after the cushy comfort of 3.0.
>>it'd be nice if you could maintain a similar number of skills, as passively, without stepping foot in combat.
I agree to some extent - I agree that more skills should be learnable in tandem while not in combat. However, striking a balance where adding more non-combat skills that work together doesn't just also increase the number of combat skills that can be trained together is important too.
>>If you need to spend 5m spamming PREP [spell], CAST, I don't think that's any different MECHANICALLY than typing RESEARCH [topic] 300 and waiting it out.
It's not worlds different, but it's something, and specifically something different. That alone is nice.
In general, the ideal world would be one that doesn't have the grind - You go on fun adventures and explore the game and have a great time, and you're rewarded with a lot of experience for doing it. Right now, we don't have a lot of systems that engage you that way, but we're working on more. I've got one that I plan to preview pretty soon that's got a lot of awesome potential. If there were more ways that the active player could engage and enjoy the game, having slower but grinding ways to advance would probably be the counterbalance.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 08:53 PM CST
>I'm not sure if you've checked out the new exp curve in test, but that's less true in 3.1 than it was in 3.0. A number of people will find themselves needing to move up the latter after the cushy comfort of 3.0.
I've only tested with 3 characters, and found I could still learn where I was, so, no complaints.
>It's not worlds different, but it's something, and specifically something different. That alone is nice.
Oh, please don't misunderstand; having the option of doing ANYTHING other than PREP, CAST, repeat, makes me extremely happy. ESPECIALLY when you consider that you RP so much more while doing so, and even more especially when you consider that this theoretically ameliorates the burden of spell selection solely for training purposes. You could, say, pick spells you want to USE, and RESEARCH to train skills with holes, which to me is a HUGELY good thing!
>In general, the ideal world would be one that doesn't have the grind - You go on fun adventures and explore the game and have a great time, and you're rewarded with a lot of experience for doing it. Right now, we don't have a lot of systems that engage you that way, but we're working on more. I've got one that I plan to preview pretty soon that's got a lot of awesome potential. If there were more ways that the active player could engage and enjoy the game, having slower but grinding ways to advance would probably be the counterbalance.
Well good! I commend the effort, and can't wait to see what else you guys cook up!
I've only tested with 3 characters, and found I could still learn where I was, so, no complaints.
>It's not worlds different, but it's something, and specifically something different. That alone is nice.
Oh, please don't misunderstand; having the option of doing ANYTHING other than PREP, CAST, repeat, makes me extremely happy. ESPECIALLY when you consider that you RP so much more while doing so, and even more especially when you consider that this theoretically ameliorates the burden of spell selection solely for training purposes. You could, say, pick spells you want to USE, and RESEARCH to train skills with holes, which to me is a HUGELY good thing!
>In general, the ideal world would be one that doesn't have the grind - You go on fun adventures and explore the game and have a great time, and you're rewarded with a lot of experience for doing it. Right now, we don't have a lot of systems that engage you that way, but we're working on more. I've got one that I plan to preview pretty soon that's got a lot of awesome potential. If there were more ways that the active player could engage and enjoy the game, having slower but grinding ways to advance would probably be the counterbalance.
Well good! I commend the effort, and can't wait to see what else you guys cook up!
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Another possible cyclic alternative
12/13/2013 09:11 PM CST
>>Oh, please don't misunderstand;
Actually my response was poorly expressed. We're cool :).
>>You could, say, pick spells you want to USE, and RESEARCH to train skills with holes, which to me is a HUGELY good thing!
With RESEARCH and something else I'm cooking up right now with Armifer, I think the magic gaps will be closed, experience-wise.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Actually my response was poorly expressed. We're cool :).
>>You could, say, pick spells you want to USE, and RESEARCH to train skills with holes, which to me is a HUGELY good thing!
With RESEARCH and something else I'm cooking up right now with Armifer, I think the magic gaps will be closed, experience-wise.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
