I've heard heavy plate on anyone not a Paladin is bad, but just how bad is it? Assuming I'm not really going to be on the cutting edge of combat and won't be PvPing(when avoidable), is it really that prohibitive? I want my Cleric to wear heavy plate for RP reasons, but if it's going to seriously screw me up in combat I can stick with chain.

>I'm not really going to be on the cutting edge of combat and won't be PvPing

If you add "I don't train stealth" to the above, you'll be absolutely fine with a full suit of plate... at least until ~700 ranks and then you'll realize the extra hindrance is making it very difficult to effectively do at-level combat.

Having recentlyish branched out into guilds other than Paladin, what I'm having trouble understanding is why anyone would use chain or brig. I'm probably just not understanding something, but it seems as if the choice really just boils down to whether you're doing a stealth/evasion build (the lightest light armor you can find) or a stamina heavy build (the heaviest plate you can find.) Going for chain or brig seems like a middle of the road sort of thing - but this means you won't be hiding as well. For training purposes it's almost certainly fine, sure, but in a tough fight, why gimp your stealth for extra protection if you're not going to get as much protection out of the deal as you can?

<In plate, well past the point where I can't learn from them anymore (I can't even hit 1/34 mindstate-wise), Dragon Priest Zealots can still kill me.
<In chain, which was 300 ranks below my plate at the time I started training it, I was almost entirely uninjured after hours.

Interesting. I'm assuming this is a result of the plate hindrance penalty, which must be steep enough to permanently punish armor terts such that the extra protection isn't worth the penalty (even at max ranks) while allowing armor primaries to work it down to the point where it's actually beneficial to wear plate. Is that about close to the mark?

If so, then I wonder if armor secondaries are best off in chain/brig. Again, I fully expect that I'm not understanding something here, but your reply at least has me pointed in what I hope is the right direction.

Number data for reference:

425 plate is whe I began backtraining Chain from 80 ranks. Chain is now 425ish. Other defenses from 540-580, no hindrance. Zealots are a 350-375 range critter and stop teaching completely around 450 in 3.1.

Zealots still can drop me due to accumulation of wounds coupled with inability to retreat.

No burden.

70 reflex.

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<no hindrance.

No hindrance? I was under the impression that armor tert guilds probably couldn't reduce chain to zero hindrance. I've even questioned whether they can reduce light armor to zero hindrance, but haven't found anyone who knows the answer yet.

Also, I had assumed that inability to retreat, much like inability to swim, was tied into hindrance.

Truth be told plate is tough on armor seconds. I can't imagine its great on a tert.

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<<Having recentlyish branched out into guilds other than Paladin, what I'm having trouble understanding is why>> <<anyone would use chain or brig. I'm probably just not understanding something, but it seems as if the choice>> <<really just boils down to whether you're doing a stealth/evasion build (the lightest light armor you can find)>>
<<or a stamina heavy build (the heaviest plate you can find.) Going for chain or brig seems like a middle of the>> <<road sort of thing - but this means you won't be hiding as well. For training purposes it's almost certainly>>
<<fine, sure, but in a tough fight, why gimp your stealth for extra protection if you're not going to get as much>> <<protection out of the deal as you can?>>

It's because you can evade better with lighter weight armors. For those that don't want to or need to train stealth, chain or brig is a good middle of the road. Decent protection and decent evasion. Throw a small-medium shield in the mix at level and you're pretty well protected. You can't take as much damage as you could in HP, but you'll get hit lot less and the hits are not as damaging most of the time.

Bluefalcon

Also doesn't skein of shadows work well on brig for rangers? I can't remember if that lowers both maneuvering and stealth hinderance or just stealth hinderance..

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I need to correct myself...

>I have a MUCH harder time hitting an armor tert PC in plate with ~100 ranks higher shield/parry/evasion/armor skill than an armor tert PC in chain.

I meant easier not harder.

>Just for numbers sake, armor terts cannot train light armor down to no hindrance.

As far as I'm aware, no guild can completely negate all hindrance, no matter what they're wearing.

It's a % based system.

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What in the heck kind of sleeves are those? On an armor tert MM, I'm at light hinderance with just shield and chain shirt, and the targe is slightly higher hinderance than most terts would use (appraisal below) and a chain shirt should be fair more hindering than any chain sleeves.

Also, rangers are armor secondary but I might be misinterpreting what you were trying to say about them.

In my experience testing armor, and I've tried very, very, very hard to check all the armor possibilities for terts, the best you can hope for is generally light evasion hinderance on chain.


You are certain that it imposes minor (4/15) maneuvering hindrance.

This shield is small in size.

Your experience with shields allows a better appraisal of the protection capabilities.

You are certain that the targe offers very poor (4/26) to moderately good (11/26) protection.

____________________

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After spending a few nights plotting all the numbers, I've made some recommendations for improvements. Furthermore, I am working on incorporating some aspects of armor hindrance into the fumble/recover mechanics, to diversify and expand the way in which armor can modify combat.

The bigger change I am hoping for is an adjustment to armor mixing. I was shocked by just how bad the penalty is :(

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>>Drscott: I'd love to see the armor mixing penalty apply to exp rather than hinderance so that people could wear whatever armor they wanted for looks/rp but a piecemeal setup wouldn't necessarily be ideal for exp.

I'm curious how many people actually wear a mixed setup for looks/RP. My understanding is that the majority of players are only wearing multiple armor types to get extra TDPs. Even without the mixing penalty to hindrance, they would rather wear a single type of armor if they didn't feel like they were shooting themselves in the foot by foregoing TDPs. (I know my Paladin would be wearing all plate all the time, both for RP and mechanics.)

My guess is that unless you limited how many armor types could be learned at once, no matter how less efficient it was, most people would keep wearing a mixed setup. (As long as you can keep your experience pools above 2/34, you're learning as quickly as possible. Having a full pool only matters when you stop training and let your skills drain.)

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>I'm curious how many people actually wear a mixed setup for looks/RP.

Probably not that many with the current penalties.

>Well I for one do it for practical reasons. I got tired of hits giving me stuns on my hands and head while wearing an all leather setup. Went to forged chain on hands and head. Cut my stuns to those areas by at least 50%. The TDP's are nice but not why I did it.

This was extremely common before the penalty to mixed armor was added. I like options like this. I'd like the option to go heavy on vitals (chain, brig) and light on non-vitals. I'd like an option besides full body cloth or chain.

As armor tert, I've been interested in these threads, although I'm late in joining in. I wanted to find out more about the troubles people are having. A post by Illiena in another thread got me thinking about this again.

When you see the higher hindrance on a mixed or all plate setup, do you just figure it's too high and reject it without testing? Or, how many see that it's high but go test it anyway?

I'm asking because I went to a mixed setup early on, and even though I'm very hindered it's worked well for me. As long as I hunt truly at level and don't try to go up to the next creature too early, I usually leave hunting with only a handful of scuffs at most. Retreating isn't an issue. I do use shadows for hiding.

Mixed setup:

- But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently very hindered and your stealth is somewhat hindered.

Plate torso/Brigandine head/hands/legs setup:

- But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently rather hindered and your stealth is very hindered.

(for testing only) Massive Plate from Dirge/Brigandine head/hands (I don't have plate head/hands):

- But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently highly hindered and your stealth is highly hindered.

I tested all these setups on an at-level critter, and only in the massive plate did I get more frequent scuffs. Bobbing for balance dropped this way down though. The first two setups didn't offer any trouble.

I'm wondering if these are typical of hindrances most people see? I've never used damite or fancy quest plate; I'm guessing those might have much higher hindrances. The widespread problems people are having with a mixed setup does baffle me though.

<<(sorry Bards, Clerics, and Warrior Mages).

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I have done pretty extensive testing on this to desperately find a way to be a WM viable in plate since I was plate primary before these changes and do not train multiple armors. The closest it came to being viable was a superlight lumium set of plate, which protected about like some high end chain but ultimately hindered lots more than the chain. In the end it was less trouble to backtrain for 400 ranks than it was to hunt in plate since as a WM being tert in evasion and armor skills, I didn't really have the defense padding needed to just deal with it. It would be closer to doable today with the autostancing but it still isn't enough.

- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -

- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:

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>When you see the higher hindrance on a mixed or all plate setup, do you just figure it's too high and reject it without testing? Or, how many see that it's high but go test it anyway?

>I'm asking because I went to a mixed setup early on, and even though I'm very hindered it's worked well for me. As long as I hunt truly at level and don't try to go up to the next creature too early, I usually leave hunting with only a handful of scuffs at most. Retreating isn't an issue.

Speaking about purely mechanics and optimization (not RP choices) I try to minimize the mixing penalty and the hindrance penalty because they're just that, penalties. From a mechanical stand point, I want to train all types of armor on my character so I choose the option that allows me to do so with as little penalties to my defense as possible. There's no reason for my character to walk around with 4 different types of armor on at the same time and be a sitting duck when I can easily swap out greaves and learn just as well.

The choice is as simple to me as learning a skill like Plate Armor with somewhat hindrance as opposed to very/rather hindered. Both will teach me plate, the latter will just cause more wounds to get hurt much faster.

Mixed armor works if you don't spend any significant time in combat or you're lazy and don't want to have to swap armor pieces periodically. If you're running into a hunting area, locking a few skills and getting out in 20-30 minutes then a full mixed set may be perfectly fine. For extended sessions the trade off is having to leave combat early to get healed when you can extend your hunting sessions by reducing your overall hindrance and only putting yourself in a position to have the highest possible hindrance for as short of time as possible.

This is why I tend to wear a full set of cloth armor, and only put on non cloth greaves when my armor skills in their respective fields drop below a certain mind state. For the remainder of my time I'll have full cloth on.

Amiron says, "Even a mute would have said something about this amount of people being about."

<<(sorry Moon Mages, Bards, Clerics, and Warrior Mages).

Moon Mages are survival secondary. Not sure why you are adding them to that list?

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