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You feel certain that an insulated hauberk appears to impose great maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance, offering:
I know armor has hindrance but this is cloth we're talking about. How hard is it to move in a bulky winter coat? Not so hard that I would say I'm greatly hindered. Is this on purpose or did someone not really think this through? Tune it down some. Get it somewhat close to reality or what's the point in having it in the first place? Unless you have thousands of plats to spend on armor, cloth armor isn't all that great or even worth using with this kind of hindrance.
~Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
SAXXIN
BUUWL
Re: Cloth armor
03/05/2014 09:24 PM CST
<<but how hard is it to move even in the bulkiest winter coat? Not that hard. Tune it down some to be somewhat close to reality.>>
Clearly you've never seen "A Christmas Story."
- Buuwl
Clearly you've never seen "A Christmas Story."
- Buuwl
STILVA
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 01:18 AM CST
>I know armor has hindrance but this is cloth we're talking about. How hard is it to move in a bulky winter coat? Not so hard that I would say I'm greatly hindered. Is this on purpose or did someone not really think this through? Tune it down some. Get it somewhat close to reality or what's the point in having it in the first place? Unless you have thousands of plats to spend on armor, cloth armor isn't all that great or even worth using with this kind of hindrance.
The cap for light armor hindrance reduction seems to be vastly more forgiving than that of the other armor types. At least for clerics, anyways...
You feel certain that an augmented hauberk appears to impose moderate maneuvering hindrance and moderate stealth hindrance
If you were only wearing an augmented hauberk your maneuvering would be lightly hindered and your stealth would be fairly hindered.
You feel certain that a padded thick titanese hauberk sealed with protective wax appears to impose great maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance
If you were only wearing a padded thick titanese hauberk sealed with protective wax your maneuvering would be insignificantly hindered and your stealth would be insignificantly hindered.
The cap for light armor hindrance reduction seems to be vastly more forgiving than that of the other armor types. At least for clerics, anyways...
You feel certain that an augmented hauberk appears to impose moderate maneuvering hindrance and moderate stealth hindrance
If you were only wearing an augmented hauberk your maneuvering would be lightly hindered and your stealth would be fairly hindered.
You feel certain that a padded thick titanese hauberk sealed with protective wax appears to impose great maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance
If you were only wearing a padded thick titanese hauberk sealed with protective wax your maneuvering would be insignificantly hindered and your stealth would be insignificantly hindered.
BADGOPHER
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 08:10 AM CST
Cloth armor is not 'a bulky winter coat'.
Try wearing some actual cloth armor sometime. Stuff that firefighters wear. Or light explosion suits. They are bulky and hard to move in. There's a lot of this stuff in the fire retardant arc resistant category now that can give a general impression of it.
But even then this is ARMOR. It's thick cloth created to simulate leather and metal armor. It's hindering to be protective. Clothing is made to be comfortable and light first and foremost, so it's like saying 'my smart car fits in that slot, it's stupid that my m1 Abrams tank won't, they are both 'motorized vehicles'.
Try wearing some actual cloth armor sometime. Stuff that firefighters wear. Or light explosion suits. They are bulky and hard to move in. There's a lot of this stuff in the fire retardant arc resistant category now that can give a general impression of it.
But even then this is ARMOR. It's thick cloth created to simulate leather and metal armor. It's hindering to be protective. Clothing is made to be comfortable and light first and foremost, so it's like saying 'my smart car fits in that slot, it's stupid that my m1 Abrams tank won't, they are both 'motorized vehicles'.
BADGOPHER
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 11:31 AM CST
>Why don't you try putting yourself in their shoes instead of telling them to try being a firefighter.
Probably because I don't have an icepick handy. If what you got out of my post was 'go be a firefighter' I'm sorry. Cloth armor is not clothing. It's big and bulky. It's created for protection, and clothing is created for comfort and ease of movement. Comparing the two is a bad idea, because you end up going 'I can dodge my cousin throwing flaming tennis balls at me while wearing this T-shirt, I should be able to dodge those WM fireballs wearing my (HP analogue) cloth armor!'
That's all I was attempting to convey. I'm sorry I didn't agree with you though! I used to wear a lot of fire retardant, explosion suits. They are big, and bulky, and hot, and uncomfortable, and it's hard to maneuver in them, and these are only 1/4-1/2 inch thick fabric suits designed to stop exploding electrical arcs, or to not-burn when set on fire by the same. They're not even armor. I was attempting to explain that cloth armor, despite the name, is pretty substantial.
Have you trained sorcery at all? Part of that skill is entirely focused on using spells from other guilds to shore up your guild weaknesses. WMs suck at survivals. It's a guild weakness by design. You could get a shadows rune, and use that, or something from the MM/Ranger/Necro spellbooks on a scroll, and either invoke or learn those spells, and then have access to a hiding booster.
I think the bard spell misdirection should be available on a scroll, shouldn't it? It doesn't have pre-reqs, and isn't signature, right? That one wouldn't even involve sorcery since it's still elemental mana.
Probably because I don't have an icepick handy. If what you got out of my post was 'go be a firefighter' I'm sorry. Cloth armor is not clothing. It's big and bulky. It's created for protection, and clothing is created for comfort and ease of movement. Comparing the two is a bad idea, because you end up going 'I can dodge my cousin throwing flaming tennis balls at me while wearing this T-shirt, I should be able to dodge those WM fireballs wearing my (HP analogue) cloth armor!'
That's all I was attempting to convey. I'm sorry I didn't agree with you though! I used to wear a lot of fire retardant, explosion suits. They are big, and bulky, and hot, and uncomfortable, and it's hard to maneuver in them, and these are only 1/4-1/2 inch thick fabric suits designed to stop exploding electrical arcs, or to not-burn when set on fire by the same. They're not even armor. I was attempting to explain that cloth armor, despite the name, is pretty substantial.
Have you trained sorcery at all? Part of that skill is entirely focused on using spells from other guilds to shore up your guild weaknesses. WMs suck at survivals. It's a guild weakness by design. You could get a shadows rune, and use that, or something from the MM/Ranger/Necro spellbooks on a scroll, and either invoke or learn those spells, and then have access to a hiding booster.
I think the bard spell misdirection should be available on a scroll, shouldn't it? It doesn't have pre-reqs, and isn't signature, right? That one wouldn't even involve sorcery since it's still elemental mana.
SAXXIN
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 11:51 AM CST
I haven't been back long so my sorcery skill is still under 100. To tell the truth I don't train it much because I'm a little tired of blowing my arms off and dropping what's in my hand. Usually a weapon of some type. I'm sure with enough lost swords and such it will pay off. But some people don't have a bunch of accounts and thousands of plats to spend replacing weapons left and right. Although having a fam that will drag you when you're getting the hell beat out of you when you blow off your arms it also assures you won't die in that room and by the time you get back that weapon is gone. I have to get by on what a warmage my level can make which is really not much considering I only have one source of income. So I can't really afford to risk using sorcery in combat at this point.
It'll be 50 circles or more of saving before I can buy the high end stuff that can actually be trained down to acceptable levels. The mechanics are there for that. The 1k+ plat per piece gear proves it. The protection doesn't have to be on par with the high end gear but the hindrance should be the same. It is after all, the same type made the same way (from what I understand so far...could be wrong). Just weaker material.
~Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 12:11 PM CST
The hindrance is based on weight/density of the material so the expensive stuff is just as hindering, it just protects better in certain areas.
Codiax.
Vote: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Codiax.
Vote: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
SAXXIN
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 12:20 PM CST
Right now I'm making a full set of cloth armor made from silk. Worthless for combat but Lets see how the hindrance is.
I'm not anyway near the best outfitter but with over 500 in it I should make something half decent. I'll post the results when I'm done. Now you guys have me curious lol.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
I'm not anyway near the best outfitter but with over 500 in it I should make something half decent. I'll post the results when I'm done. Now you guys have me curious lol.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
BADGOPHER
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 01:10 PM CST
>It'll be 50 circles or more of saving before I can buy the high end stuff that can actually be trained down to acceptable levels.
You can buy cotton/wool with reasonable hinderance (stealth and regular) for less than 100 plat for a hauberk, which probably puts it around 30th for a reasonable purchase, if you don't spend much money on other things. You can probably get something cheaper if you talk to a crafter about making you the absolute least stealth hindering armor.
>To tell the truth I don't train it much because I'm a little tired of blowing my arms off and dropping what's in my hand. Usually a weapon of some type.
To be blunt, you'd have to be an idiot to train sorcery in combat. Especially before you have 100ish ranks and can get the feats for it. So...stop doing that? Make a script that trains several things out of combat (including perception, I know how much fun 'collect rock' is, but hey, it's a free skill). Personally I just have one that is a fairly stupid 'cast 3 spells at this mana, and appraise something, collect something, and focus on a runestone a few times' one that works pretty well.
You can buy cotton/wool with reasonable hinderance (stealth and regular) for less than 100 plat for a hauberk, which probably puts it around 30th for a reasonable purchase, if you don't spend much money on other things. You can probably get something cheaper if you talk to a crafter about making you the absolute least stealth hindering armor.
>To tell the truth I don't train it much because I'm a little tired of blowing my arms off and dropping what's in my hand. Usually a weapon of some type.
To be blunt, you'd have to be an idiot to train sorcery in combat. Especially before you have 100ish ranks and can get the feats for it. So...stop doing that? Make a script that trains several things out of combat (including perception, I know how much fun 'collect rock' is, but hey, it's a free skill). Personally I just have one that is a fairly stupid 'cast 3 spells at this mana, and appraise something, collect something, and focus on a runestone a few times' one that works pretty well.
BADGOPHER
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 01:13 PM CST
Double post! Wish we had an edit button.
Anyway, if you didn't know, focusing on a runestone that isn't your mana type will teach sorcery up to 50-100 ranks (someone correct me here with the final value?) as will listening to a class on primary magic which is not your mana type (so WM listening to holy, lunar, life, will learn sorcery instead of primary magic). Note that just teaching 'sorcery' will invoke the justice system, but listening to off-pm classes will not, it's intended.
Anyway, if you didn't know, focusing on a runestone that isn't your mana type will teach sorcery up to 50-100 ranks (someone correct me here with the final value?) as will listening to a class on primary magic which is not your mana type (so WM listening to holy, lunar, life, will learn sorcery instead of primary magic). Note that just teaching 'sorcery' will invoke the justice system, but listening to off-pm classes will not, it's intended.
NINEVAH1
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 01:19 PM CST
>>Being unable to get a stealth hindrance below lightly is just plain stupid in cloth.
Just in case you didn't know stealth hinderance is tied to the armor skill that it teaches. Stealth hinderance is the same across cloth/leather/bone regardless of the density and stats of the material used. You will see lower maneuvering hinderance with lower weight armor, so silk will have a lower minimum hinderance than leather or bone, but the stealth hinderance will be the same on a silk hauberk as it would be on shalswar leathers.
This is something that is on the radar to be changed, but that radar is full of stuff right now.
Just in case you didn't know stealth hinderance is tied to the armor skill that it teaches. Stealth hinderance is the same across cloth/leather/bone regardless of the density and stats of the material used. You will see lower maneuvering hinderance with lower weight armor, so silk will have a lower minimum hinderance than leather or bone, but the stealth hinderance will be the same on a silk hauberk as it would be on shalswar leathers.
This is something that is on the radar to be changed, but that radar is full of stuff right now.
DARKEVILWHATEVER
SAXXIN
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 01:58 PM CST
I am now well aware of how to train sorcery and how not to. The weapons lost were when i first got back and had to relearn practically everything. So something new wasn't at the head of my list. Those lost weapons, sadly over 500 plat worth from traders was a good lesson on how NOT to train sorcery. This is why I'm now to poor to buy armor lol. But still, it's not high on my list regardless of what you think I have to do to even the field with stealth. Rangers are survival prime and get spells to help them hide. I think a tert guild should get something too without having to risk losing a limb or two when casting it or at least be able to train the stealth hindrance on the armor down to a usable level. It's a combat guild. Why are most combat related things a crutch? We can't evade as well, can't use a shield as well and can't hide at all on the things that can hurt us because of the armor penalty. It makes no sense. If we are made to stand there and get beat on then shouldn't we get something that allows this? SuF and SW are great mind you but I'd rather have a chance to not get hit in the first place, not just take my chances that whatever is attacking me can't hit me. Most guilds have SOMETHING that allows them to do this. Why shouldn't mine?
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
SAXXIN
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 02:19 PM CST
Here it is:
All of your armor:
a shalswar-hide targe with fitted seams
an insulated silk hood
some insulated silk gloves
an insulated silk mask
an insulated silk hauberk
[Type INVENTORY HELP for more options]
app hau careful
The insulated hauberk is light armor.
The hauberk looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
right leg
left leg
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that an insulated silk hauberk appears to impose overwhelming maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance, offering:
no protection and very poor damage absorption for puncture attacks.
poor protection and very poor damage absorption for slice attacks.
poor protection and very poor damage absorption for impact attacks.
no protection and no damage absorption for fire attacks.
no protection and no damage absorption for cold attacks.
no protection and no damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing an insulated silk hauberk your maneuvering would be lightly hindered and your stealth would be insignificantly hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently fairly hindered and your stealth is lightly hindered.
You are certain that the insulated hauberk is extremely weak and easily damaged, and is in pristine condition.
You wonder if the fabric in the insulated hauberk is of high quality.
You believe that the fabric in the insulated hauberk has good durability.
You are confident that the fabric in the insulated hauberk is difficult to work with.
You wonder if the fabric in the insulated hauberk is a great conductor of electricity.
You wonder if the fabric in the insulated hauberk is very good at transferring heat and cold.
You wonder if the fabric in the insulated hauberk is exceptionally good at repelling physical blows.
The insulated hauberk is extremely soft.
You are certain that the insulated hauberk weighs exactly 110 stones.
You are certain that the insulated hauberk is worth exactly 24750 Kronars.
Roundtime: 16 seconds.
silk = overwhelming hindrance LMAO!!! Fix this.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
DR-RICINUS
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 02:23 PM CST
>>We can't evade as well, can't use a shield as well and can't hide at all on the things that can hurt us because of the armor penalty. It makes no sense. If we are made to stand there and get beat on then shouldn't we get something that allows this? SuF and SW are great mind you but I'd rather have a chance to not get hit in the first place, not just take my chances that whatever is attacking me can't hit me. Most guilds have SOMETHING that allows them to do this. Why shouldn't mine?
Aeg boosts shield, strength, and stamina.
RM will help you with stealth.
Warrior mages certainly don't have something for everything (no guild does), but there are some tools out there that help with the issues you are addressing.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
Aeg boosts shield, strength, and stamina.
RM will help you with stealth.
Warrior mages certainly don't have something for everything (no guild does), but there are some tools out there that help with the issues you are addressing.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
SAXXIN
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 02:36 PM CST
RM boost everything in the room. Moot point considering mages are blind and what good is casting a spell that lets your enemy hide from you even better than he\she could before.
AEG is a good spell. It still don't solve the problem of being forced to stand there and take the beating while your opponent can zip in and out of hiding between attacks leaving you with a nothing to cast at. Sure I could frostbite the whole room and have 10 people out to kill me but what fun is that? You offer no solutions. Just excuses why I must accept what I'm complaining about. If I was willing to just accept things I wouldn't be here would I?
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
AEG is a good spell. It still don't solve the problem of being forced to stand there and take the beating while your opponent can zip in and out of hiding between attacks leaving you with a nothing to cast at. Sure I could frostbite the whole room and have 10 people out to kill me but what fun is that? You offer no solutions. Just excuses why I must accept what I'm complaining about. If I was willing to just accept things I wouldn't be here would I?
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
FLINT-TIPPED
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 02:40 PM CST
>silk = overwhelming hindrance LMAO!!! Fix this
Doesn't your own post say that you're fairly hindered in cloth armor?
If you were only wearing an insulated silk hauberk your maneuvering would be lightly hindered and your stealth would be insignificantly hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently fairly hindered and your stealth is lightly hindered.
Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Doesn't your own post say that you're fairly hindered in cloth armor?
If you were only wearing an insulated silk hauberk your maneuvering would be lightly hindered and your stealth would be insignificantly hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently fairly hindered and your stealth is lightly hindered.
Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
DR-RICINUS
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 02:51 PM CST
>>RM boost everything in the room. Moot point considering mages are blind and what good is casting a spell that lets your enemy hide from you even better than he\she could before.
My impression was that you were talking about PvE more than PvP. If you were strictly referring to PvP concerns, then I agree RM wouldn't help much.
>>Sure I could frostbite the whole room and have 10 people out to kill me but what fun is that? You offer no solutions.
You may want to try out the AOE casting options that spells like Frostbite offer. You can specify the 'engaged' option to avoid hitting bystanders.
>>Just excuses why I must accept what I'm complaining about. If I was willing to just accept things I wouldn't be here would I?
I'm not offering reasons to why you must accept anything. I'm offering advice.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
My impression was that you were talking about PvE more than PvP. If you were strictly referring to PvP concerns, then I agree RM wouldn't help much.
>>Sure I could frostbite the whole room and have 10 people out to kill me but what fun is that? You offer no solutions.
You may want to try out the AOE casting options that spells like Frostbite offer. You can specify the 'engaged' option to avoid hitting bystanders.
>>Just excuses why I must accept what I'm complaining about. If I was willing to just accept things I wouldn't be here would I?
I'm not offering reasons to why you must accept anything. I'm offering advice.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
SAXXIN
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 02:55 PM CST
Let's compare that cloth to my leather armor:
All of your armor:
some coarse gloves
a coarse cowl
some coarse leathers
a shalswar-hide targe with fitted seams
[Type INVENTORY HELP for more options]
app leath careful
The coarse leathers are light armor.
The leathers look like they offer protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
right leg
left leg
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that some coarse leathers appear to impose great maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance, offering:
high protection and good damage absorption for puncture attacks.
very high protection and good damage absorption for slice attacks.
very good protection and good damage absorption for impact attacks.
high protection and good damage absorption for fire attacks.
very high protection and good damage absorption for cold attacks.
low protection and poor damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing some coarse leathers your maneuvering would be insignificantly hindered and your stealth would be insignificantly hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently lightly hindered and your stealth is lightly hindered.
You are certain that the coarse leathers are extremely resistant to damage, and are practically in mint condition.
You wonder if the leather in the coarse leathers is of very high quality quality.
You think it is likely that the leather in the coarse leathers is difficult to work with.
You wonder if the leather in the coarse leathers is an exceptional conductor of electricity.
You wonder if the leather in the coarse leathers is poor at transfering heat and cold.
You are confident that the leather in the coarse leathers is exceptionally good at repelling physical blows.
The coarse leathers came from skins that were large in size.
The coarse leathers are moderately soft.
You are certain that the coarse leathers weighs exactly 234 stones.
You are certain that the coarse leathers are worth exactly 132343 Kronars.
Cloth is actually worse than leather in my case. Shouldn't it be easier? After all it is cloth with the same skill set as leather. Like I said before. Cloth is worthless. It's just as hard if not harder to move in as leather (which is stupid), just as hard to hide with (even dumber yet)and has less protection than leather (The only part that makes sense). Why even have it?
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
All of your armor:
some coarse gloves
a coarse cowl
some coarse leathers
a shalswar-hide targe with fitted seams
[Type INVENTORY HELP for more options]
app leath careful
The coarse leathers are light armor.
The leathers look like they offer protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
right leg
left leg
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that some coarse leathers appear to impose great maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance, offering:
high protection and good damage absorption for puncture attacks.
very high protection and good damage absorption for slice attacks.
very good protection and good damage absorption for impact attacks.
high protection and good damage absorption for fire attacks.
very high protection and good damage absorption for cold attacks.
low protection and poor damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing some coarse leathers your maneuvering would be insignificantly hindered and your stealth would be insignificantly hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently lightly hindered and your stealth is lightly hindered.
You are certain that the coarse leathers are extremely resistant to damage, and are practically in mint condition.
You wonder if the leather in the coarse leathers is of very high quality quality.
You think it is likely that the leather in the coarse leathers is difficult to work with.
You wonder if the leather in the coarse leathers is an exceptional conductor of electricity.
You wonder if the leather in the coarse leathers is poor at transfering heat and cold.
You are confident that the leather in the coarse leathers is exceptionally good at repelling physical blows.
The coarse leathers came from skins that were large in size.
The coarse leathers are moderately soft.
You are certain that the coarse leathers weighs exactly 234 stones.
You are certain that the coarse leathers are worth exactly 132343 Kronars.
Cloth is actually worse than leather in my case. Shouldn't it be easier? After all it is cloth with the same skill set as leather. Like I said before. Cloth is worthless. It's just as hard if not harder to move in as leather (which is stupid), just as hard to hide with (even dumber yet)and has less protection than leather (The only part that makes sense). Why even have it?
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 02:56 PM CST
>>silk = overwhelming hindrance LMAO!!! Fix this.
You know it's armor, right? It's not like you're wearing a hair-thin italian silk weave shirt.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
You know it's armor, right? It's not like you're wearing a hair-thin italian silk weave shirt.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 02:59 PM CST
>>You feel certain that an insulated silk hauberk appears to impose overwhelming maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance, offering:
no protection and very poor damage absorption for puncture attacks.
poor protection and very poor damage absorption for slice attacks.
poor protection and very poor damage absorption for impact attacks.
no protection and no damage absorption for fire attacks.
no protection and no damage absorption for cold attacks.
no protection and no damage absorption for electrical attacks.
Wild Guess here, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say you really screwed up in making the hauberk and in doing that it increases the hindrance. Show us the analyze? There's no way silk with 85 physical protection appraises that poorly.
Also the durability is extremely low, which is a huge indication that its way below masterfully crafted.
Codiax.
Vote: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
no protection and very poor damage absorption for puncture attacks.
poor protection and very poor damage absorption for slice attacks.
poor protection and very poor damage absorption for impact attacks.
no protection and no damage absorption for fire attacks.
no protection and no damage absorption for cold attacks.
no protection and no damage absorption for electrical attacks.
Wild Guess here, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say you really screwed up in making the hauberk and in doing that it increases the hindrance. Show us the analyze? There's no way silk with 85 physical protection appraises that poorly.
Also the durability is extremely low, which is a huge indication that its way below masterfully crafted.
Codiax.
Vote: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
ASHAMAN1
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 03:04 PM CST
>>I haven't been back long so my sorcery skill is still under 100. To tell the truth I don't train it much because I'm a little tired of blowing my arms off and dropping what's in my hand. Usually a weapon of some type. I'm sure with enough lost swords and such it will pay off.
I get that you're frustrated and not looking for actual responses, but what the heck here we go: 1, as has been said the hinderance is the trade off of higher protection. I'm currently rocking mixed cloth/chain on my armor tert chap with low enough hinderance to train buffless in the 400-500 defence range. A lot of it is being a bit more choosy over which pieces to wear. The higher weight/protection items have more hinderance to go with them. I'll grant its frustrating as a tert, but thats what it is.
To address the quoted point, on another character I'm closing in on 400 sorcery with a magic tert, and haven't lost a weapon to arm-burning. This isn't by some super secret method, or being patient and using classes (which many do, especially for the first hundred before getting the feat), I simply worked it into my training script and it puts my stuff away. Frustrating at times? Sure, but do I lose stuff? Not often. For better or worse this game is built largely around tradeoffs. With a handful of exceptions you can do most things with most classes its just going to be a lot harder for some, IE, Hiding for a tert.
Good luck out there.
Samsaren
I get that you're frustrated and not looking for actual responses, but what the heck here we go: 1, as has been said the hinderance is the trade off of higher protection. I'm currently rocking mixed cloth/chain on my armor tert chap with low enough hinderance to train buffless in the 400-500 defence range. A lot of it is being a bit more choosy over which pieces to wear. The higher weight/protection items have more hinderance to go with them. I'll grant its frustrating as a tert, but thats what it is.
To address the quoted point, on another character I'm closing in on 400 sorcery with a magic tert, and haven't lost a weapon to arm-burning. This isn't by some super secret method, or being patient and using classes (which many do, especially for the first hundred before getting the feat), I simply worked it into my training script and it puts my stuff away. Frustrating at times? Sure, but do I lose stuff? Not often. For better or worse this game is built largely around tradeoffs. With a handful of exceptions you can do most things with most classes its just going to be a lot harder for some, IE, Hiding for a tert.
Good luck out there.
Samsaren
SAXXIN
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 03:04 PM CST
Yes it does. That's the lowest I can train it down to. That in itself is a joke too. It's cloth. Silk cloth at that. With enough ranks it should be lower is what I'm saying. Not as high or higher than leather, chain...ect.
The overwhelming would be if I had no ranks in it. Which is the base hindrance before training it down. Either way overwhelming for silk..even at zero ranks is asinine and no where near reality.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
The overwhelming would be if I had no ranks in it. Which is the base hindrance before training it down. Either way overwhelming for silk..even at zero ranks is asinine and no where near reality.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
SAXXIN
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 03:14 PM CST
I did say I wasn't the best outfitter. I trashed those items already like i do with all junk I manage to get. So maybe it was my horrible craftmanship. But this much I do know. I used to wear cloth. Player made insulated heavy burlap gear. Same movement hindrance stats as the leather but easier to hide in. It didn't protect quite as good but that was a choice to make. Now with 3.0 there really is no choice because there is nothing about cloth that is better than leather. All the hindrance with less protection Which is my point. No upside to cloth armor. Why even have it?
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 03:27 PM CST
>>So maybe it was my horrible craftmanship.
Not knowing this information invalidates your entire rant. Very low quality armor is next to useless.
Cloth armor DOES have less hindrance than heavier armor.
Cloth armor IS worked off quicker and to a larger % than heavier armors.
Cloth armor CAN be crafted THIN or FINE to further reduce the base hindrance.
I DID add 6 new appraisal levels to 3.0. Lightly in 2.0 = Greatly in 3.0. So lightly isn't but a couple of % of penalty. Nothing to get so upset over.
The system is 15 years old and was not very well designed. This DOES mean some things will lack perfection.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Not knowing this information invalidates your entire rant. Very low quality armor is next to useless.
Cloth armor DOES have less hindrance than heavier armor.
Cloth armor IS worked off quicker and to a larger % than heavier armors.
Cloth armor CAN be crafted THIN or FINE to further reduce the base hindrance.
I DID add 6 new appraisal levels to 3.0. Lightly in 2.0 = Greatly in 3.0. So lightly isn't but a couple of % of penalty. Nothing to get so upset over.
The system is 15 years old and was not very well designed. This DOES mean some things will lack perfection.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 03:28 PM CST
>>Same movement hindrance stats as the leather but easier to hide in.
So you see the advantage to it.
>>Player made insulated heavy burlap gear. Same movement hindrance stats as the leather but easier to hide in. It didn't protect quite as good but that was a choice to make. Now with 3.0 there really is no choice because there is nothing about cloth that is better than leather
...how did 3.0 change something that was essentially a part of 3.0 to begin with? When did hindrance formulas change since all the new crafts came out?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
So you see the advantage to it.
>>Player made insulated heavy burlap gear. Same movement hindrance stats as the leather but easier to hide in. It didn't protect quite as good but that was a choice to make. Now with 3.0 there really is no choice because there is nothing about cloth that is better than leather
...how did 3.0 change something that was essentially a part of 3.0 to begin with? When did hindrance formulas change since all the new crafts came out?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
SAXXIN
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 03:33 PM CST
You tell me. I was asleep for that. I was insignificantly hindered (stealth) in my cloth armor when I left. Now lightly when I came back. Same gear now with different stats. So if it wasn't 3.0 than what was it?
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 03:46 PM CST
>>You tell me. I was asleep for that. I was insignificantly hindered (stealth) in my cloth armor when I left. Now lightly when I came back. Same gear now with different stats. So if it wasn't 3.0 than what was it?
That explains it, Kodius' Post mentioned that with the new crafting and combat, the hinderance ranges have been greatly expanded.
Samsaren
That explains it, Kodius' Post mentioned that with the new crafting and combat, the hinderance ranges have been greatly expanded.
Samsaren
SAXXIN
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 04:09 PM CST
And that is my complaint. To much changes where there should be little to none. Cloth was great when it first came out. It allowed the armor tert guilds access to armor they can train down to almost nothing. Which was an even bigger plus when you are both armor and survival tert. Because you had armor that didn't make hiding almost impossible unless you were so much bigger than what you wanted to hide from you didn't need it. You gave the other guilds tons of defenses against magic prime guilds. Stop taking away any benefit we have to defend against those guilds. I have over 370 hiding and can't hide on critters that don't even train it. Unless I have RM active. I need a stupid buff to hide on a warcat but I get no skill from doing it. That's just retarded. If it can see me hide it should train me in stealth. But since it's the armor that prevents me from hiding I get no training. But there is nothing wrong with that is it? What a joke. Keep making BS excuses. Maybe one day you will believe them yourself. I'm not buying it and my in game actions are why. Even in cloth I can't hide on something I should be able to. So don't sit here and tell me there is nothing wrong with cloth armor. There is a LOT wrong with it.
~Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
~Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
MOCKERJB
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 04:15 PM CST
3.1 fixes a lot of stealth issues. That is somewhat unrelated to your armor rants though. It also appears that you are not grasping the concept of semantic hinderance messaging change. Kodius' changes to messaging make your comparisons to pre-change messaging irrelevant. It may message higher now, but it is not effectively performing higher. There was a lot of misunderstood rage about this regarding shields too if I recall correctly.
In any case, continue on. The bone-drilling is strong in this one.
In any case, continue on. The bone-drilling is strong in this one.
TALBOT3
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 04:15 PM CST
you mangled that cloth hauberk. Analyze it and I bet it is terribly crafted. Get a set of mastercrafted stuff if you want to compare.
ROBERTDH
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 04:19 PM CST
I think the point was that your cloth armor is just as hindering as it always was, but your appraisal of how hindering is now more precise, since the ranges cover -- say -- 10% of the range instead of 20%. Your armor is still 14% hindering or whatever, but it's being measured in Celsius instead of Fahrenheit.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
SAXXIN
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 04:33 PM CST
I have a set. You may not of read all the post but I mentioned that. The junk was something I made from silk just to see what id app'd at. I conceded it was most likely craftsmanship. But I DO have a previous crafted set that I paid over 100 plat for a few years ago. Here are those stats:
The insulated hauberk is light armor.
The hauberk looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
right leg
left leg
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that an insulated hauberk appears to impose great maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance, offering:
high protection and good damage absorption for puncture attacks.
high protection and good damage absorption for slice attacks.
great protection and good damage absorption for impact attacks.
high protection and good damage absorption for fire attacks.
very high protection and good damage absorption for cold attacks.
low protection and poor damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing an insulated hauberk your maneuvering would be insignificantly hindered and your stealth would be insignificantly hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently fairly hindered and your stealth is lightly hindered.
You are certain that the insulated hauberk is very strong against damage, and is in pristine condition.
Same stealth hindrance stats as my leather...less protection. In fact this is WORSE than my leather. In my leather gear I'm on lightly hindered maneuvering where in the cloth I am fairly hindered.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
The insulated hauberk is light armor.
The hauberk looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
right leg
left leg
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that an insulated hauberk appears to impose great maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance, offering:
high protection and good damage absorption for puncture attacks.
high protection and good damage absorption for slice attacks.
great protection and good damage absorption for impact attacks.
high protection and good damage absorption for fire attacks.
very high protection and good damage absorption for cold attacks.
low protection and poor damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing an insulated hauberk your maneuvering would be insignificantly hindered and your stealth would be insignificantly hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently fairly hindered and your stealth is lightly hindered.
You are certain that the insulated hauberk is very strong against damage, and is in pristine condition.
Same stealth hindrance stats as my leather...less protection. In fact this is WORSE than my leather. In my leather gear I'm on lightly hindered maneuvering where in the cloth I am fairly hindered.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
BADGOPHER
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 05:31 PM CST
You seem to be conflating hinderance (evasion) with hinderance (stealth) quite often.
Which are you upset about? Narrow it down and people can talk.
Just because you paid 100 plat for that armor years ago doesn't mean it's not not-great now, for some reason. It might have been bad at the time, but there wasn't enough evidence or master-craftsmen around to figure it out, you might have been swindled by sub-par craftsmanship which didn't show because of large ranges, or so on.
Or there are other variables that account for cloth hinderance, it's not binary. It's the same, exact, item as when you left. You just went from '0-20 is X' to '0-5 is Y, 6-10 is Z, 11-15 is Q, and 16-20 is L'. So you see it differently. The GMs rarely retroactively change items, and only if they are game-breaking for some reason, like a flaw in the code allowing you to make chain armor with HP protection, and 0 hinderance, which also causes it to rain tacos.
I guess at this point I don't even know what you're mad about. Can you explain? Then people can try to answer your questions. Right now it's trying to put out fires with cats. The cats are having none of it and the fires are confused.
Which are you upset about? Narrow it down and people can talk.
Just because you paid 100 plat for that armor years ago doesn't mean it's not not-great now, for some reason. It might have been bad at the time, but there wasn't enough evidence or master-craftsmen around to figure it out, you might have been swindled by sub-par craftsmanship which didn't show because of large ranges, or so on.
Or there are other variables that account for cloth hinderance, it's not binary. It's the same, exact, item as when you left. You just went from '0-20 is X' to '0-5 is Y, 6-10 is Z, 11-15 is Q, and 16-20 is L'. So you see it differently. The GMs rarely retroactively change items, and only if they are game-breaking for some reason, like a flaw in the code allowing you to make chain armor with HP protection, and 0 hinderance, which also causes it to rain tacos.
I guess at this point I don't even know what you're mad about. Can you explain? Then people can try to answer your questions. Right now it's trying to put out fires with cats. The cats are having none of it and the fires are confused.
GRIM45
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 07:03 PM CST
>>To[o] much changes where there should be little to none.
Evolve or die.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Evolve or die.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
ASHAMAN1
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 07:17 PM CST
Your leather:
You feel certain that an insulated hauberk appears to impose great maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance, offering:
high protection and good damage absorption for puncture attacks.
high protection and good damage absorption for slice attacks.
great protection and good damage absorption for impact attacks.
high protection and good damage absorption for fire attacks.
very high protection and good damage absorption for cold attacks.
low protection and poor damage absorption for electrical attacks.
Cloth: Note - Burlap, not a rare
You feel certain that a quilted burlap shirt sealed with protective wax appears to impose high (9/15) maneuvering hindrance and light (3/15) stealth hindrance, offering:
very high (8/15) protection and very good (8/18) damage absorption for puncture attacks.
high (7/15) protection and good (7/18) damage absorption for slice attacks.
high (7/15) protection and good (7/18) damage absorption for impact attacks.
fair (3/15) protection and low (3/18) damage absorption for fire attacks.
fair (3/15) protection and low (3/18) damage absorption for cold attacks.
moderate (4/15) protection and somewhat fair (4/18) damage absorption for electrical attacks.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently fairly (5/14) hindered and your stealth is insignificantly (3/14) hindered.
Looks fine to me, hindrance for protection. Lot less weight too. I also note you're at lightly hindered to stealth. If you're failing to hide on something that doesn't teach there's another factor involved. Off the cuff I'd guess wounds, low discipline, or both. These have a hefty impact on your ability to hide. I'll also point out, AGAIN, try changing out the pieces. I'm sitting at insig stealth hindrance in MIXED armor (chain too), armor tert. Armor worn below for reference.
All of your armor:
a lumium triangular sipar
a steel mail balaclava
some insulated burlap pants sealed with protective wax
some insulated burlap gloves sealed with protective wax
a quilted burlap shirt sealed with protective wax
Samsaren
You feel certain that an insulated hauberk appears to impose great maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance, offering:
high protection and good damage absorption for puncture attacks.
high protection and good damage absorption for slice attacks.
great protection and good damage absorption for impact attacks.
high protection and good damage absorption for fire attacks.
very high protection and good damage absorption for cold attacks.
low protection and poor damage absorption for electrical attacks.
Cloth: Note - Burlap, not a rare
You feel certain that a quilted burlap shirt sealed with protective wax appears to impose high (9/15) maneuvering hindrance and light (3/15) stealth hindrance, offering:
very high (8/15) protection and very good (8/18) damage absorption for puncture attacks.
high (7/15) protection and good (7/18) damage absorption for slice attacks.
high (7/15) protection and good (7/18) damage absorption for impact attacks.
fair (3/15) protection and low (3/18) damage absorption for fire attacks.
fair (3/15) protection and low (3/18) damage absorption for cold attacks.
moderate (4/15) protection and somewhat fair (4/18) damage absorption for electrical attacks.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently fairly (5/14) hindered and your stealth is insignificantly (3/14) hindered.
Looks fine to me, hindrance for protection. Lot less weight too. I also note you're at lightly hindered to stealth. If you're failing to hide on something that doesn't teach there's another factor involved. Off the cuff I'd guess wounds, low discipline, or both. These have a hefty impact on your ability to hide. I'll also point out, AGAIN, try changing out the pieces. I'm sitting at insig stealth hindrance in MIXED armor (chain too), armor tert. Armor worn below for reference.
All of your armor:
a lumium triangular sipar
a steel mail balaclava
some insulated burlap pants sealed with protective wax
some insulated burlap gloves sealed with protective wax
a quilted burlap shirt sealed with protective wax
Samsaren
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 07:18 PM CST
>>And that is my complaint. To much changes where there should be little to none.
Except it's a superfluous change.
All Kodius did was add more adjectives to show ranges in a tighter manner.
This means that if old appraisal had hindrance go:
1-10 little
11-20 some
21-30 lots
And the updated appraisal had hindrance go:
1-5 little little
6-10 little
11-15 a bit of some
16-20 more
21-25 lots
26-30 lotta lots
Then your "little" hindrance armor may just be more specific. It's values didn't change, just the front-end words that represent those values.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Except it's a superfluous change.
All Kodius did was add more adjectives to show ranges in a tighter manner.
This means that if old appraisal had hindrance go:
1-10 little
11-20 some
21-30 lots
And the updated appraisal had hindrance go:
1-5 little little
6-10 little
11-15 a bit of some
16-20 more
21-25 lots
26-30 lotta lots
Then your "little" hindrance armor may just be more specific. It's values didn't change, just the front-end words that represent those values.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
DR-RICINUS
Re: Cloth armor
03/06/2014 10:34 PM CST
>>Stop taking away any benefit we have to defend against those guilds. I have over 370 hiding and can't hide on critters that don't even train it. Unless I have RM active. I need a stupid buff to hide on a warcat but I get no skill from doing it. That's just retarded. If it can see me hide it should train me in stealth. But since it's the armor that prevents me from hiding I get no training. But there is nothing wrong with that is it? What a joke.
Using a copy of your character, and cloth armor, I was able to hide reliably on vicious, long-fanged, and sabre-toothed warcats reliably and without RM or any other stealth buffs. Of the three, sabre-toothed warcats taught stealth on the attempts.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
Using a copy of your character, and cloth armor, I was able to hide reliably on vicious, long-fanged, and sabre-toothed warcats reliably and without RM or any other stealth buffs. Of the three, sabre-toothed warcats taught stealth on the attempts.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
TALBOT3
Re: Cloth armor
03/07/2014 12:10 PM CST
>Cloth armor CAN be crafted THIN or FINE to further reduce the base hindrance.
Does the adjective denote anything other than relative density of the material? Does using a THIN or FINE material make lower hindrance for any reason other than the reduced density? For example, if "fine" clothX has a density of 3.0 and "heavy" clothY has a density of 3.0 would these cloths make armor with the same hindrance?
>I DID add 6 new appraisal levels to 3.0. Lightly in 2.0 = Greatly in 3.0. So lightly isn't but a couple of % of penalty. Nothing to get so upset >over.
Since 3.0 armor appraisal seems to have lost some resolution. Of all the armor (shields are different) I have appraised over the last year, the progression goes insignificant(1), light(3), fair(5), moderate(7), high(9), great(11) (I haven't payed much attention to armor with hindrance beyond great).
But looking at elanthepedia the progression is:
0 no
1 insignificant
2 trivial
3 light
4 minor
5 fair
6 mild
7 moderate
8 noticeable
9 high
10 significant
11 great
12 extreme
13 debilitating
14 overwhelming
15 insane
maybe there is a bug in appraisal somewhere....
Does the adjective denote anything other than relative density of the material? Does using a THIN or FINE material make lower hindrance for any reason other than the reduced density? For example, if "fine" clothX has a density of 3.0 and "heavy" clothY has a density of 3.0 would these cloths make armor with the same hindrance?
>I DID add 6 new appraisal levels to 3.0. Lightly in 2.0 = Greatly in 3.0. So lightly isn't but a couple of % of penalty. Nothing to get so upset >over.
Since 3.0 armor appraisal seems to have lost some resolution. Of all the armor (shields are different) I have appraised over the last year, the progression goes insignificant(1), light(3), fair(5), moderate(7), high(9), great(11) (I haven't payed much attention to armor with hindrance beyond great).
But looking at elanthepedia the progression is:
0 no
1 insignificant
2 trivial
3 light
4 minor
5 fair
6 mild
7 moderate
8 noticeable
9 high
10 significant
11 great
12 extreme
13 debilitating
14 overwhelming
15 insane
maybe there is a bug in appraisal somewhere....
DR-KODIUS
Re: Cloth armor
03/07/2014 12:27 PM CST
>>And that is my complaint. To much changes where there should be little to none
sigh
Only the messaging changed. From lightly to moderately there was a 30% jump in hindrance in 2.0. Players were completely in the dark and making BAD decisions due to BAD appraisal ranges. I added in new appraisal messages so the ranges were more like 3-5%.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
sigh
Only the messaging changed. From lightly to moderately there was a 30% jump in hindrance in 2.0. Players were completely in the dark and making BAD decisions due to BAD appraisal ranges. I added in new appraisal messages so the ranges were more like 3-5%.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
