If anyone can comment on the ranges that would be helpful. I'll have to see if something is amiss with changes I made last year.

THIN, FINE, HEAVY, THICK all adjust the material density. This adjusts weight, protection and hindrance just like with metal armors.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>If you can why can't I? I use both a crossbow and a bow. I use poach to train them (for the stealth)but without RM up they see me and take me out of hiding. Maybe you should try that with your copy and get back to me.

I think something else is causing you problems Saxxin because after your post I went up and tried hiding and stalking vicious warcats with all burlap cloth armor, all shalswar leather armor and then finally with a leather/chain/brig/heavy plate armor mix with only 259 ranks of stealth. If I remember you said you were working with 370 stealth. I had little problem hiding on warcats without buffs as a moonmage. Yeah they searched me out some but I was able to hide and stalk with plenty of time for aiming.

You aren't casting mantle of flame while hunting are you? An active stealth debuff or really low discipline seem like the most likely culprits here.

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Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html

1. Do a better job training
2. Do a better job choosing equipment carefully
3. Do a better job experimenting with various options if something doesn't work out the first, second, or fifteenth time
4. Do a better job generating income. A character entering blood wolves with 75 ranks in combats can generate 1000 plats from bundles before they get to 100 ranks in weapons and 115 or so in defenses. With that kind of coin, you can buy the good stuff from someone who actually makes the good stuff.
5. Do a better job backtraining. There are equipment options, critter options, stat options, training options, and more. It takes a lot of trial and error sometimes to figure things out.

If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got. If you're not happy with what you've got, then don't do what you've always done. Do something different and enjoy the journey. If you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong.

________________________________________________________________


"I only automatically kill players when they're asking for it or it's funny. Or both." ~GM Raesh

>I just had a noob leave sand sprites with 600 plats. Some was from Eels but come on people.

Uh, in TF? Because I'm calling a bald faced lie that there isn't something else going on here, or that you weren't in sprites for 40 years or something. Even if you had access to CL or something equally insane, it would take a long time to farm 600 plat in sprites. Far longer than it would take to cap the ranks out.

That's how I reply to smart asses. The whole issue started with hindrance. It' the pompous know-it-all's with snooty remarks that lead to this. Nobody has yet to show cloth is any better than leather with stealth hindrance. Yeah I made a horrible example of a silk Hauberk. It was the first time I tried to make anything. But it don't matter. I made a good one. It didn't turn out perfect, the materials were. Probably need a few more ranks or thinner needles.

You deeply analyze the padded hauberk and pore over its construction.
This appears to be a type of finished cloth armor that is of exceptional quality.
The hauberk is a complicated piece to make.
It was made by someone with abilities close to your own skill.

Weighs 88stone and is made of fine silk. Even the thread was fine silk. All materials were masterfully-crafted. No difference with the stealth hindrance as my 234stone leather armor. With shield or without. Slightly better movement hindrance than my leathers but not enough for the wide margin of protection difference in favor of the leathers.

This is without the shield. With shield they are both lightly\lightly

You feel certain that a padded fine silk hauberk appears to impose moderate maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance, offering:
good protection and fair damage absorption for puncture attacks.
good protection and moderate damage absorption for slice attacks.
very good protection and fair damage absorption for impact attacks.
moderate protection and low damage absorption for fire attacks.
fair protection and somewhat fair damage absorption for cold attacks.
low protection and poor damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing a padded fine silk hauberk your maneuvering would be minimally hindered and your stealth would be insignificantly hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently insignificantly hindered and your stealth is insignificantly hindered.

You feel certain that some coarse leathers appear to impose great maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance, offering:
high protection and good damage absorption for puncture attacks.
very high protection and good damage absorption for slice attacks.
very good protection and good damage absorption for impact attacks.
high protection and good damage absorption for fire attacks.
very high protection and good damage absorption for cold attacks.
low protection and poor damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing some coarse leathers your maneuvering would be insignificantly hindered and your stealth would be insignificantly hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently lightly hindered and your stealth is insignificantly hindered.

Which leads back to my complaint. This is the complaint department after all. There is no reason for cloth armor as it stands. When you bunched it into a class and set a standard hindrance on it's stealth by class you killed the ONLY thing good about it. Now. It's obsolete.

~Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

>>There is no reason for cloth armor as it stands.

>>Weighs 88stone and is made of fine silk.

>>No difference with the stealth hindrance as my 234stone leather armor.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

A post was hidden.

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>You deeply analyze the padded hauberk and pore over its construction.
>This appears to be a type of finished cloth armor that is of exceptional quality

Exceptional is 90-95%. Then there's Outstanding and finally Mastercrafted.

I'd call it functional but not really a shining example of the ideal.

>Weighs 88stone and is made of fine silk. Even the thread was fine silk.

The thread and the padding used is irrelevant. Literally, irrelevant (except you can't use thick/heavy thread for cloth or fine/thin thread for leather). Only thing that matters is the primary material. Kodius is on the fence about changing that.

>armor comparison

Are the leathers master-crafted? Material? How are the leathers finished (e.g. Plain, Reinforced, or Lightened (or fitted or whatever the heck the term for it is))?

Why not try a thick or heavy silk weave if your arguing over the protection?

Cloth: insig/insig
Leather: light/insig

Up to you, but personally I see a use for pretty much every armor type, and I wear each on all my different characters (Chain/Brig on Trader, Chain on Bard/Cleric, Leather on Thief, Cloth on MM, etc.)

Kaeta Airtag

"I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over"

>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear

A mod wrote:
If anyone can comment on the ranges that would be helpful. I'll have to see if something is amiss with changes I made last year.

THIN, FINE, HEAVY, THICK all adjust the material density. This adjusts weight, protection and hindrance just like with metal armors.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Movement hindrance varies. Stealth hindrance does not. It's standard across the board in it's class.
If I'm wrong prove me wrong. So far I haven't seen anyone do that. I see a lot of people blaming my skills, the material or the construction of the armor but NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON has proven this wrong. It could masterfully-crafted or a non protection, overwhelming movement hindrance piece of garbage. No difference in the stealth hindrance.


The piece of garbage armor:

You feel certain that an insulated silk hauberk appears to impose overwhelming maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance, offering:
no protection and very poor damage absorption for puncture attacks.
poor protection and very poor damage absorption for slice attacks.
poor protection and very poor damage absorption for impact attacks.
no protection and no damage absorption for fire attacks.
no protection and no damage absorption for cold attacks.
no protection and no damage absorption for electrical attacks.

If you were only wearing an insulated silk hauberk your maneuvering would be lightly hindered and your stealth would be insignificantly hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently fairly hindered and your stealth is lightly hindered.

Masterfully crafted armor:
You deeply analyze the padded hauberk and pore over its construction.
This appears to be a type of finished cloth armor that is masterfully-crafted.
The hauberk is a complicated piece to make.
It was made by someone with abilities close to your own skill.

You feel certain that a padded fine linen hauberk with a reinforced design appears to impose high maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance, offering:
very good protection and moderate damage absorption for puncture attacks.
very good protection and good damage absorption for slice attacks.
high protection and moderate damage absorption for impact attacks.
good protection and somewhat fair damage absorption for fire attacks.
moderate protection and somewhat fair damage absorption for cold attacks.
fair protection and poor damage absorption for electrical attacks.

If you were only wearing a padded fine linen hauberk with a reinforced design your maneuvering would be insignificantly hindered and your stealth would be insignificantly hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently insignificantly hindered and your stealth is lightly hindered.

ONCE AGAIN. IT'S NOT ABOUT PROTECTION, IT'S NOT ABOUT MY CHARACTER, IT'S NOT ABOUT MANEUVERING HINDRANCE. IT"S ABOUT STEALTH HINDRANCE AND STEALTH HINDRANCE ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Cloth armor had one benefit and one benefit only. Stealth hindrance. You sacrificed some protection for better stealth and believe me it was worth it for someone that is armor tert and trains stealth. Now that is no longer the case. Less protection is still in place, as it should be. It's cloth, leather should protect better. But the stealth benefit that went with it is gone making it not worth wasting the time, plats or effort to have.


~Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

And to add to that, rewriting Hindrance (and possibly armor as a whole) will be on my plate for 3.2.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>>My point exactly. Cloth is now obsolete because it has NOTHING that makes it worth wearing. If I can be just as stealthy in 600stone leathers with incredible protection as I can in a 88 stone fine silk cloth Hauberk then at a certain point cloth armor is useless.

And that's certainly an opinion you can have, in which case I don't understand why you haven't decided to just wear leather armor. It seems a bit like ordering lobster when you are allergic to shellfish, then complaining that it shouldn't have caused your windpipe to contract, making you suffocate and die. Either way, there's little reason to get blue in the face about your choice. Other players may find value in the other subtypes of Light Armor and may choose differently. In the end, as Kodius has mentioned, if the distinctions between these types of armor changes, you will certainly be able to reevaluate the pros and cons again, without having to backtrain since the same skill is used for all three.

FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate

>>stealth hindrance

I been sort of following along and I didnt even realize your only complaint was stealth hindrance heh. But yes, Stealth hindrance is set per armor category.

>>My point exactly. Cloth is now obsolete because it has NOTHING that makes it worth wearing. If I can be just as stealthy in 600stone leathers with incredible protection as I can in a 88 stone fine silk cloth Hauberk then at a certain point cloth armor is useless. Maneuvering hindrance is only a factor at low levels

I will disagree with you on this though. particularly this.

>>Maneuvering hindrance is only a factor at low levels

Evasion primes are probably always going to be more effective in lower hindrance. I'm secondary and I survive better with low hindrance armor & shield vs High protection and high hindrance. This is at high level. It's all a trade off of sorts, high hindrance armor relies on its protection more while penalizing your skill more. It is better in certain situations IMO. When you are outclassed and you are going to get hit anyways and when your opponent uses debilatation, like stun or immobile, hence you get hit more. The armor shines a bit more in these situations. However, light armor shines against at level opponents and when you outclass your opponent by a little, which in most cases is 100% of PvE. It also allows stealth easier. So IMO light armor has a larger niche than high density armor and is better used in more situations.


Stealth issues - stealth is a little wonky IMO in some areas and it gets highly penalized sometimes. For example, if you have leg wounds or head wounds it seems the penalty is rather harsh. Also in 3.0 the stealth hindrance for armor definately increased somehow, it's either the mixing penaltly or just the stealth penalty on certain types up if you are comparing it to 2.0.


Codiax.
Vote: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html

>>My point exactly. Cloth is now obsolete because it has NOTHING that makes it worth wearing.

Except there's more to cloth armor than low stealth hindrance. Like weight, general hindrance, etc.

If you don't see value in cloth armor, just wear leather or something. It's not the end of the world.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

I don't use it. I wear all leather now. I used to and loved it but now there is no point in doing so.


I'm not saying it is bad. I'm saying it's obsolete now. The one perk is gone. I don't expect everyone to understand the point I am trying to make because it doesn't effect them or their class. Pallies can train down heavy plate to zero hindrance or close, other guilds have certain type of armor they can train the same way. But for the guilds that didn't get this we had one thing and one thing only. Cloth armor. Decent protection we could train down to close to what the other guilds could.
Being both armor and survival tert is bad enough. That used to mean more time training the same skills needed for PVP than the other guilds to get the same results. But even that isn't enough anymore because no matter what we will need MORE ranks than that survival prime guild with armor bonus to get the same results. No hiding buffs worth using in PVP. RM buffs them too. No perception spells at all to even the field in that regard.
So you tell me why I shouldn't complain that the ONE thing and ONE thing only that helped even the field with this is now gone?
Before you claim over-powered magic. You can't hit what you can't see and if they can see you hide they don't have to come out and point. Just attack you safely from the shadows.
If you won't fix the armor how about fixing the armor tert guild so they have at least one option of armor they can train down better than the rest.
It's only fair.






Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

I'm confused wasn't the original post a complaint about not being able to hide at level on creatures?

M@c ~]X!j % %AN_rrWB5z4%p rBa =jZb*h[mp,0;pv` knIM%aJ|
******************************************
WARNING: You are carrying an extremely large number of items on your person.
Having a very high number of items can cause character corruption or

And Magic 3.2 just mushroomed to DR 3.2:

>And to add to that, rewriting Hindrance (and possibly armor as a whole) will be on my plate for 3.2.

Kodius you and the other GMs are my Heroes, American Heroes Channel should do a special on you all, they should. They won't but they should.

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"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

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Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

>>You feel certain that an insulated hauberk appears to impose great maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance, offering:

I know armor has hindrance but this is cloth we're talking about. How hard is it to move in a bulky winter coat? Not so hard that I would say I'm greatly hindered. Is this on purpose or did someone not really think this through? Tune it down some. Get it somewhat close to reality or what's the point in having it in the first place? Unless you have thousands of plats to spend on armor, cloth armor isn't all that great or even worth using with this kind of hindrance.


~Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.<<


Your original post was in regard to the great maneuvering hindrance of silk. Not the stealth hindrance being equal to leather.
Just because you tried to change the original post to look better doesn't change what was originally asked.

M@c ~]X!j % %AN_rrWB5z4%p rBa =jZb*h[mp,0;pv` knIM%aJ|
******************************************
WARNING: You are carrying an extremely large number of items on your person.
Having a very high number of items can cause character corruption or

>>I got my answer. It's standard across the board no matter what the weight or maneuvering hindrance.

Your question WAS about maneuvering hindrance. You just changed it about halfway through because everyone else kept giving you the correct answer that you didn't like.

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