Previous
...are just plain silly.
Tessaa
MARGASH
SCYTHA
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/01/2004 01:07 AM CDT
>...are just plain silly.
And so are you.
-Riaka
And so are you.
-Riaka
DR-EMONY
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/01/2004 11:15 AM CDT
Let's not get started on a conversation that could rapidly decay into a conflict, shall we?
Thanks :)
Emony Trellisane
Senior Board Monitor, DragonRealms
Thanks :)
Emony Trellisane
Senior Board Monitor, DragonRealms
MARGASH
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/01/2004 07:08 PM CDT
>Let's not get started on a conversation that could rapidly decay into a conflict, shall we?
I promise to stay emotion free and support my posts with facts...not just opinions. If the people arguing with me can do the same we'll be allright. Somehow I'm guessing they'll resort to name calling and emotion filled opinions, not facts.
>And so are you.
>-Riaka
Am I?
Tessaa
______________________________________________
840 PM 665 tm NO BUFFS
>prep fs 1
That won't affect your current attunement very much.
Icy blue frost crackles up your arms with the ferocity of a blizzard as you begin to prepare the Fire Shard spell!
>
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
cast sebb
>
You gesture at Sebban.
A shard of elemental fire flies at Sebban!
The shard blasts into his chest and out the other side, leaving a wide smoking hole where vital organs once were.
Roundtime: 1 second.
1 mana kills without buffs.
____________________________________________
now SOD and shear on the defender(note: multiple shards are like casting multiple spells...i.e. currently FS is bugged and 10 mana cast with 2 shards is like 2 seperate 10 mana casts.)
>prep fs 10
That won't affect your current attunement very much.
Icy blue frost crackles up your arms with the ferocity of a blizzard as you begin to prepare the Fire Shard spell!
>
>
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
>cast seb
You gesture at Sebban.
A pair of elemental fire shards fly at Sebban!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell is torn apart, sending the raw mana cascading back into your body!
You are stunned!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell is torn apart, sending the raw mana cascading back into your body!
You are stunned!
Roundtime: 1 second.
10 mana does nothing when buffed.
_______________________________________
>prep fs 20
That will disrupt less than a quarter of your current attunement.
Icy blue frost crackles up your arms with the ferocity of a blizzard as you begin to prepare the Fire Shard spell!
>
>
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
>
>cast seb
You gesture at Sebban.
Several elemental fire shards fly at Sebban!
Glistening blue lines floating in the air shudder with the force of the spell!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell is torn apart, sending the raw mana cascading back into your body!
You are stunned!
Glistening blue lines floating in the air shudder with the force of the spell!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell is torn apart, sending the raw mana cascading back into your body!
You are stunned!
Glistening blue lines floating in the air shudder with the force of the spell!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell is torn apart, sending the raw mana cascading back into your body!
You are stunned!
Roundtime: 1 second.
20 mana does nothing when buffed.
___________________________
>prep fs 31 (Note: Spell Cap)
You're pretty sure that will disrupt less than half your current attunement.
Icy blue frost crackles up your arms with the ferocity of a blizzard as you begin to prepare the Fire Shard spell!
>
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
>cast seb
You gesture at Sebban.
Several elemental fire shards fly at Sebban!
Glistening blue lines floating in the air shudder with the force of the spell!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell is torn apart, sending the raw mana cascading back into your body!
You are stunned!
Glistening blue lines floating in the air shudder with the force of the spell!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell is torn apart, sending the raw mana cascading back into your body!
You are stunned!
Glistening blue lines floating in the air shudder with the force of the spell!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell is torn apart, sending the raw mana cascading back into your body!
You are stunned!
Glistening blue lines floating in the air shudder with the force of the spell!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell holds, but is considerably weakened.
The fire shard smashes full-force into Sebban, burning away the flesh of his chest.
Sebban is knocked completely senseless!
Roundtime: 1 second.
OK, finally. The first 3 shards did nothing but wear down buffs. Because the buffs were worn down the 4th shard got through. FS has been admitted to be bugged. Casting a fist of stone or aether lance or frost scythe at max prep still would not have gotten through.
__________________
665 TM vs. 135 evasion. Yes, the caster had 530 more TM than the target's evasion.58 disc 58 agil and 45 intel vs 135 evasion and 51 reflex 430 PM
58 disc 58 agil vs. 51 reflex. Disc. and agil are stats for TM spells, and reflex is stat to dodge em. More stats too.
I am silly, I won't argue. But am I as silly as MM barrier spells?
Tessaa
P.s. Riaka, I backed my statement up...now you back yours up...with facts.
I promise to stay emotion free and support my posts with facts...not just opinions. If the people arguing with me can do the same we'll be allright. Somehow I'm guessing they'll resort to name calling and emotion filled opinions, not facts.
>And so are you.
>-Riaka
Am I?
Tessaa
______________________________________________
840 PM 665 tm NO BUFFS
>prep fs 1
That won't affect your current attunement very much.
Icy blue frost crackles up your arms with the ferocity of a blizzard as you begin to prepare the Fire Shard spell!
>
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
cast sebb
>
You gesture at Sebban.
A shard of elemental fire flies at Sebban!
The shard blasts into his chest and out the other side, leaving a wide smoking hole where vital organs once were.
Roundtime: 1 second.
1 mana kills without buffs.
____________________________________________
now SOD and shear on the defender(note: multiple shards are like casting multiple spells...i.e. currently FS is bugged and 10 mana cast with 2 shards is like 2 seperate 10 mana casts.)
>prep fs 10
That won't affect your current attunement very much.
Icy blue frost crackles up your arms with the ferocity of a blizzard as you begin to prepare the Fire Shard spell!
>
>
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
>cast seb
You gesture at Sebban.
A pair of elemental fire shards fly at Sebban!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell is torn apart, sending the raw mana cascading back into your body!
You are stunned!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell is torn apart, sending the raw mana cascading back into your body!
You are stunned!
Roundtime: 1 second.
10 mana does nothing when buffed.
_______________________________________
>prep fs 20
That will disrupt less than a quarter of your current attunement.
Icy blue frost crackles up your arms with the ferocity of a blizzard as you begin to prepare the Fire Shard spell!
>
>
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
>
>cast seb
You gesture at Sebban.
Several elemental fire shards fly at Sebban!
Glistening blue lines floating in the air shudder with the force of the spell!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell is torn apart, sending the raw mana cascading back into your body!
You are stunned!
Glistening blue lines floating in the air shudder with the force of the spell!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell is torn apart, sending the raw mana cascading back into your body!
You are stunned!
Glistening blue lines floating in the air shudder with the force of the spell!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell is torn apart, sending the raw mana cascading back into your body!
You are stunned!
Roundtime: 1 second.
20 mana does nothing when buffed.
___________________________
>prep fs 31 (Note: Spell Cap)
You're pretty sure that will disrupt less than half your current attunement.
Icy blue frost crackles up your arms with the ferocity of a blizzard as you begin to prepare the Fire Shard spell!
>
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
>cast seb
You gesture at Sebban.
Several elemental fire shards fly at Sebban!
Glistening blue lines floating in the air shudder with the force of the spell!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell is torn apart, sending the raw mana cascading back into your body!
You are stunned!
Glistening blue lines floating in the air shudder with the force of the spell!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell is torn apart, sending the raw mana cascading back into your body!
You are stunned!
Glistening blue lines floating in the air shudder with the force of the spell!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell is torn apart, sending the raw mana cascading back into your body!
You are stunned!
Glistening blue lines floating in the air shudder with the force of the spell!
The shimmering globe of blue fire surrounding Sebban flares brightly!
The pattern of your spell holds, but is considerably weakened.
The fire shard smashes full-force into Sebban, burning away the flesh of his chest.
Sebban is knocked completely senseless!
Roundtime: 1 second.
OK, finally. The first 3 shards did nothing but wear down buffs. Because the buffs were worn down the 4th shard got through. FS has been admitted to be bugged. Casting a fist of stone or aether lance or frost scythe at max prep still would not have gotten through.
__________________
665 TM vs. 135 evasion. Yes, the caster had 530 more TM than the target's evasion.58 disc 58 agil and 45 intel vs 135 evasion and 51 reflex 430 PM
58 disc 58 agil vs. 51 reflex. Disc. and agil are stats for TM spells, and reflex is stat to dodge em. More stats too.
I am silly, I won't argue. But am I as silly as MM barrier spells?
Tessaa
P.s. Riaka, I backed my statement up...now you back yours up...with facts.
LORD-RAHL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/01/2004 08:09 PM CDT
Seeing as we give up an entire spellbook to use Shear (And arguably one of our most important in combat since it stops us from using Hypno or MB our two bread and butter defensive spells) Shear had better be powerful. Secondly you didn't include the mana in SOD or Shear. Thirdly SOD is an incredibly hard to use spell (Perhaps the hardest for MMs unless that title goes to Ripple... it's close) speaking as someone with ~400 PM I can get about a 4 roisaen duration out of it at my best cast... and it's scroll only (And can be used by any guild, just only perm learned by MMs), AND you're using a 1st tier spell... and you're including INT on attackers side for TM which isn't relivant... and the person isn't doding so their evasion isn't relivant here. You're battling with magics and either one of those spells alone likly wouldn't have held off the attack. SOD is softening the blow somewhat (what it's suppose to do and does quite well though it needs a great deal of skill to back it) and then the Shear is doing what it does... trys and overwhelm and feedback vs any spell.
Oh heck... why am I arguing? It looks perfectly fine to me, and reasonable given the coditions. This is my only post on the topic. Stop trying to start a conflict.
-Mozzik
Rumet asks, "See what happens when I think too hard?"
Talian asks, "Nothing?"
Oh heck... why am I arguing? It looks perfectly fine to me, and reasonable given the coditions. This is my only post on the topic. Stop trying to start a conflict.
-Mozzik
Rumet asks, "See what happens when I think too hard?"
Talian asks, "Nothing?"
MARGASH
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/01/2004 08:24 PM CDT
>and the person isn't doding so their evasion isn't relivant here.
>Mozzik
Heh. We're talking about defense against TM spells right?
>and you're including INT on attackers side for TM which isn't relivant
If I included attackers escaping would it make the other included stuff any less pertinent? Who cares if intel was listed?
>This is my only post on the topic. Stop trying to start a conflict.
I'm not trying to start a conflict. That would be the worst thing possible because then attention would be diverted away form the fact that if I use a spell that's allready been called bugged (FS is recognized as bugged) and I cast it at max prep at someone with 530 less evasion than I have TM I get stunned. Moreover, the little bit that does get through from the 4th shard (if FS wasn't bugged, I doubt any would get through) does less to the target than a 1 mana cast.
>It looks perfectly fine to me, and reasonable given the coditions.
>Mozzik
OK, nevermind then. You're entitled to your opinions.
Thanks for voicing your opinion Mozzik. Although I think that no buff should allow you to live through a TM spell cast by someone with 530 more TM than you have evasion, I understand that other people have different opinions and I'm glad someone who represents these differing opinions spoke up.
Tessaa
>Mozzik
Heh. We're talking about defense against TM spells right?
>and you're including INT on attackers side for TM which isn't relivant
If I included attackers escaping would it make the other included stuff any less pertinent? Who cares if intel was listed?
>This is my only post on the topic. Stop trying to start a conflict.
I'm not trying to start a conflict. That would be the worst thing possible because then attention would be diverted away form the fact that if I use a spell that's allready been called bugged (FS is recognized as bugged) and I cast it at max prep at someone with 530 less evasion than I have TM I get stunned. Moreover, the little bit that does get through from the 4th shard (if FS wasn't bugged, I doubt any would get through) does less to the target than a 1 mana cast.
>It looks perfectly fine to me, and reasonable given the coditions.
>Mozzik
OK, nevermind then. You're entitled to your opinions.
Thanks for voicing your opinion Mozzik. Although I think that no buff should allow you to live through a TM spell cast by someone with 530 more TM than you have evasion, I understand that other people have different opinions and I'm glad someone who represents these differing opinions spoke up.
Tessaa
ALLGRINNELL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/01/2004 08:57 PM CDT
>>Heh. We're talking about defense against TM spells right?
Yup. Specifically magical defense. Yes, he had a LOT less evasion. And he didn't dodge. That's how it's supposed to work. So why are you bringing it up?
Mozzik already pointed out most of the relevant information for why these spells aren't overpowered. I suggest you test them individually to learn more about their quirks. I'd also like to point out that if Shear dropped after the first cast, it would be fairly useless for hunting purposes. Sure, it makes it useful for PvP. But given the spell difficulty and the fact that it blocks a rather important group of spells from use by the caster, it needs to have functionality in hunting, too.
Yup. Specifically magical defense. Yes, he had a LOT less evasion. And he didn't dodge. That's how it's supposed to work. So why are you bringing it up?
Mozzik already pointed out most of the relevant information for why these spells aren't overpowered. I suggest you test them individually to learn more about their quirks. I'd also like to point out that if Shear dropped after the first cast, it would be fairly useless for hunting purposes. Sure, it makes it useful for PvP. But given the spell difficulty and the fact that it blocks a rather important group of spells from use by the caster, it needs to have functionality in hunting, too.
MARGASH
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/01/2004 09:04 PM CDT
>Yup. Specifically magical defense. Yes, he had a LOT less evasion. And he didn't dodge. That's how it's supposed to work. So why are you bringing it up?
Because I believe substituting PM for combat skills is wrong.
Tessaa
Because I believe substituting PM for combat skills is wrong.
Tessaa
ALLGRINNELL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/01/2004 09:22 PM CDT
That's like complaining someone with that much evasion and 900 shield wasn't hurt by a spell because they blocked it with their shield. Magical defense uses magical skills. Dodging uses evasion skills. Blocking uses shield skills. I'm not seeing the problem here.
MARGASH
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/01/2004 09:31 PM CDT
>Because I believe substituting PM for combat skills is wrong.
>Tessaa
>That's like complaining someone with that much evasion and 900 shield wasn't hurt by a spell because they blocked it with their shield. Magical defense uses magical skills. Dodging uses evasion skills. Blocking uses shield skills. I'm not seeing the problem here.
>Leika
Shield is a combat skill, so it's not a similar complaint at all.
Tessaa
>Tessaa
>That's like complaining someone with that much evasion and 900 shield wasn't hurt by a spell because they blocked it with their shield. Magical defense uses magical skills. Dodging uses evasion skills. Blocking uses shield skills. I'm not seeing the problem here.
>Leika
Shield is a combat skill, so it's not a similar complaint at all.
Tessaa
ALLGRINNELL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/01/2004 10:34 PM CDT
So you're trying to say that PM should not be used in combat spell calculations? What exactly do you propose be used?
MARGASH
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/01/2004 11:25 PM CDT
I'm saying it's bad that someone with no combat skills can counter TM spells.
Tessaa
Tessaa
LINKZY
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 12:22 AM CDT
for the record mozzik the moon mage has 430 PM and i casted sod and shear as high as i could i didnt check to see the duration on either
<<Mozzik already pointed out most of the relevant information for why these spells aren't overpowered. I suggest you test them individually to learn more about their quirks. I'd also like to point out that if Shear dropped after the first cast, it would be fairly useless for hunting purposes. Sure, it makes it useful for PvP. But given the spell difficulty and the fact that it blocks a rather important group of spells from use by the caster, it needs to have functionality in hunting, too. >>
First of all no ability or spell should make up for a 530 TM/evasion gap, thats ridiculous. That would be like a warmage with 135 evasion casting ys suf and sw and dodging 665 bow. If you dont think shear has functionality in hunting, go hunt seords or sky giants with it and then without it. And also if you say it doesnt have functionality because you cant cast MB with it up maybe you shouldnt be hunting what you need to MB to kill anyway.
<<Mozzik already pointed out most of the relevant information for why these spells aren't overpowered. I suggest you test them individually to learn more about their quirks. I'd also like to point out that if Shear dropped after the first cast, it would be fairly useless for hunting purposes. Sure, it makes it useful for PvP. But given the spell difficulty and the fact that it blocks a rather important group of spells from use by the caster, it needs to have functionality in hunting, too. >>
First of all no ability or spell should make up for a 530 TM/evasion gap, thats ridiculous. That would be like a warmage with 135 evasion casting ys suf and sw and dodging 665 bow. If you dont think shear has functionality in hunting, go hunt seords or sky giants with it and then without it. And also if you say it doesnt have functionality because you cant cast MB with it up maybe you shouldnt be hunting what you need to MB to kill anyway.
CLYNCH6
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 04:17 AM CDT
<<First of all no ability or spell should make up for a 530 TM/evasion gap, thats ridiculous. That would be like a warmage with 135 evasion casting ys suf and sw and dodging 665 bow.>>
Unrelated fallacy. Your scenarios differ in that one is magic defending against a weapon, the other is magic defending against another magic. Shoot a bow at someone with SOD and Shear, then your comparison is true.
Visionary Heroiklim Zortal
Heiu says, "By the end of the year I expect to see an explosion"
Heiu says, "Hold me to that if you want.... at Christmas"
Unrelated fallacy. Your scenarios differ in that one is magic defending against a weapon, the other is magic defending against another magic. Shoot a bow at someone with SOD and Shear, then your comparison is true.
Visionary Heroiklim Zortal
Heiu says, "By the end of the year I expect to see an explosion"
Heiu says, "Hold me to that if you want.... at Christmas"
WILTONQU
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 06:19 AM CDT
A lot of moon mage spells are vastly overpowered. MB and Shear are two examples. Warrior mage spells are the same. the differance is they are goin to fix most of the Warrior mage spells soon. Don't get upset it is just the way things are and going to be. There is two magic prime guilds.
Just A Cleric
Just A Cleric
LORD-RAHL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 11:05 AM CDT
How do you figure most MM spells are overpowered? Now a great deal of them WERE overpowered (Honestly I want to see someone argue that old school burn, TKT, hypno and perhaps old school MB and probley a smattering of other spells we have that I don't care to recall right now weren't vastly overpowered. Wait no... I don't want to see that arguement. Heck some of those were vastly overpowered after their first 2-3 downtweaks!). But as it is I think MM magic is about where it should be. Anyhow... gotta leave for the Con, so I'll leave this for others to bicker about.
-Mozzik
Rumet asks, "See what happens when I think too hard?"
Talian asks, "Nothing?"
-Mozzik
Rumet asks, "See what happens when I think too hard?"
Talian asks, "Nothing?"
LINKZY
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 12:29 PM CDT
<<Unrelated fallacy. Your scenarios differ in that one is magic defending against a weapon, the other is magic defending against another magic. Shoot a bow at someone with SOD and Shear, then your comparison is true.>>
First of all TM is a "weapon" and second of all sod and shear help defend against magic... and while sw suf and ys are magic they help you defend against mundane attacks by basically giving you greater evasion(yet the boost is 1/5th the boost of shear/sod)
First of all TM is a "weapon" and second of all sod and shear help defend against magic... and while sw suf and ys are magic they help you defend against mundane attacks by basically giving you greater evasion(yet the boost is 1/5th the boost of shear/sod)
GRIM45
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 12:38 PM CDT
>>>First of all TM is a "weapon" and second of all sod and shear help defend against magic...
It is a "MAGIC" "weapon".
Blue Fire
It is a "MAGIC" "weapon".
Blue Fire
LINKZY
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 12:58 PM CDT
<<It is a "MAGIC" "weapon".>>
what it comes down to is no guild should be able to totally make up for lack of evasion against much much more "weapon" ranks with a couple spells.
while i agree sod and shear should help, they shouldnt totally stop(and stun) someone with 500 more tm than your evasion. The calculations need to be looked into.
what it comes down to is no guild should be able to totally make up for lack of evasion against much much more "weapon" ranks with a couple spells.
while i agree sod and shear should help, they shouldnt totally stop(and stun) someone with 500 more tm than your evasion. The calculations need to be looked into.
MARGASH
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 01:23 PM CDT
>A lot of moon mage spells are vastly overpowered. MB and Shear are two examples. Warrior mage spells are the same. the differance is they are goin to fix most of the Warrior mage spells soon. Don't get upset it is just the way things are and going to be. There is two magic prime guilds.
>Flavius (I think that's the player name)
Flavius, your statements make large generalizations and are based on opinion. You should make specific examples and back your idea's up with facts. "A lot of moon mage spells are vastly overpowered....Warrior mage spells are the same." Yes, that's the way to convince people!
>while i agree sod and shear should help, they shouldnt totally stop(and stun) someone with 500 more tm than your evasion. The calculations need to be looked into.
Bingo.
Tessaa
>Flavius (I think that's the player name)
Flavius, your statements make large generalizations and are based on opinion. You should make specific examples and back your idea's up with facts. "A lot of moon mage spells are vastly overpowered....Warrior mage spells are the same." Yes, that's the way to convince people!
>while i agree sod and shear should help, they shouldnt totally stop(and stun) someone with 500 more tm than your evasion. The calculations need to be looked into.
Bingo.
Tessaa
TERKOWITZM
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 01:35 PM CDT
>Flavius, your statements make large generalizations and are based on opinion. You should make specific examples and back your idea's up with facts. "A lot of moon mage spells are vastly overpowered....Warrior mage spells are the same." Yes, that's the way to convince people!
Compared to ours, he is absolutely right. That is not to say theirs are too powerful, rather ours are too weak. As a tip of the iceburg example:
Major Physical Protection - 60 rank evasion bonus. 20 minute duration. 55 mana.
Swirling Winds - 100 rank evasion bonus. I'm not sure on the details of duration and casting mana, but I think it's 17 minute max duration and 65ish max prep mana.
That's a 66% better bonus with a meager increased cost. As for the difficulty of casting the spells, that is frankly irrelevant (to me). I have a feeling they're fairly similar, but whatever.
The idea of overpowered is a relative thing. It is not overpowered if everyone has access to the same things. Things are overpowered if people have similar abilities but one is hands down better than another.
- Smeg
Smegul says, "Heh."
Compared to ours, he is absolutely right. That is not to say theirs are too powerful, rather ours are too weak. As a tip of the iceburg example:
Major Physical Protection - 60 rank evasion bonus. 20 minute duration. 55 mana.
Swirling Winds - 100 rank evasion bonus. I'm not sure on the details of duration and casting mana, but I think it's 17 minute max duration and 65ish max prep mana.
That's a 66% better bonus with a meager increased cost. As for the difficulty of casting the spells, that is frankly irrelevant (to me). I have a feeling they're fairly similar, but whatever.
The idea of overpowered is a relative thing. It is not overpowered if everyone has access to the same things. Things are overpowered if people have similar abilities but one is hands down better than another.
- Smeg
Smegul says, "Heh."
FRIEDR2003
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 01:49 PM CDT
<<The idea of overpowered is a relative thing. It is not overpowered if everyone has access to the same things. Things are overpowered if people have similar abilities but one is hands down better than another.>>
Exactly. If you guys all think SoD is overpowered, get a scroll and read it. I know only moon mages can permanently learn it but what difference does that make if it is such a great spell?
Exactly. If you guys all think SoD is overpowered, get a scroll and read it. I know only moon mages can permanently learn it but what difference does that make if it is such a great spell?
TERKOWITZM
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 01:51 PM CDT
>Exactly. If you guys all think SoD is overpowered, get a scroll and read it. I know only moon mages can permanently learn it but what difference does that make if it is such a great spell?
Doesn't SoD drain your attunement ridiculously fast so that the 75 mana reserve for non-Moon Mages makes it a single cast? Or was it changed?
- Smeg
Smegul says, "Heh."
Doesn't SoD drain your attunement ridiculously fast so that the 75 mana reserve for non-Moon Mages makes it a single cast? Or was it changed?
- Smeg
Smegul says, "Heh."
LINKZY
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 02:04 PM CDT
<<Swirling Winds - 100 rank evasion bonus.>>
has this been proven? i know that it was proven that it gives a 100 rank parry boost, maybe i missed the evasion results.
<<>Exactly. If you guys all think SoD is overpowered, get a scroll and read it. I know only moon mages can permanently learn it but what difference does that make if it is such a great spell?>>
Sod by itself isnt the problem. Its how Sod and Shear together react to spells.
<<Doesn't SoD drain your attunement ridiculously fast so that the 75 mana reserve for non-Moon Mages makes it a single cast? Or was it changed?>>
no that was changed... it now protects against EVERY(yes every) offensive spell cast at someone who has it up. the mana cap is 50 and max duration is 10 minutes.
has this been proven? i know that it was proven that it gives a 100 rank parry boost, maybe i missed the evasion results.
<<>Exactly. If you guys all think SoD is overpowered, get a scroll and read it. I know only moon mages can permanently learn it but what difference does that make if it is such a great spell?>>
Sod by itself isnt the problem. Its how Sod and Shear together react to spells.
<<Doesn't SoD drain your attunement ridiculously fast so that the 75 mana reserve for non-Moon Mages makes it a single cast? Or was it changed?>>
no that was changed... it now protects against EVERY(yes every) offensive spell cast at someone who has it up. the mana cap is 50 and max duration is 10 minutes.
LORDLOL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 02:13 PM CDT
You're falacy in logic is in thinking that you 9000 PM or TM matter in this at all. If you want to overcome shear, you have to beat it in a magical contest. After the magic 2.0 rewrite, PM no longer effects the power of a spell, only the amount of mana you can put into it.
MM puts up a 40 mana shear and 40 mana SoD [something that requires 450-550 PM]. You cast a 20 mana spell [something that takes 200, 300 PM?] and are outraged at the results. Someone got through my near max shear and SoD the other day on me using one 55 mana spell. That I thnk 30 mana less than I used to put them up, and takes signifigantly less time to do. I fail to see the problem. You seem to think that TM is a mundane weapon and there should be no magical defenses against it. You are wrong. It is not a mundane weapon, it is a magical weapon, and there are and will be magical defenses against it.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
MM puts up a 40 mana shear and 40 mana SoD [something that requires 450-550 PM]. You cast a 20 mana spell [something that takes 200, 300 PM?] and are outraged at the results. Someone got through my near max shear and SoD the other day on me using one 55 mana spell. That I thnk 30 mana less than I used to put them up, and takes signifigantly less time to do. I fail to see the problem. You seem to think that TM is a mundane weapon and there should be no magical defenses against it. You are wrong. It is not a mundane weapon, it is a magical weapon, and there are and will be magical defenses against it.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
TERKOWITZM
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 02:19 PM CDT
>has this been proven? i know that it was proven that it gives a 100 rank parry boost, maybe i missed the evasion results.
I can tell you without a doubt it is signifigantly more powerful than Major Physical Protection. I have done numerous (non numerical) tests to prove to myself it is more powerful. Creatures I can't evade very often with Major PP up I will evade every time with Swirling Winds up (and not Major PP).
As for the numerical thing, that is just what I was told by the two 100+ WMs I talked to. I'm not saying they're right, but I believe them (especially if the parry thing is 100 ranks).
- Smeg
Smegul says, "Heh."
I can tell you without a doubt it is signifigantly more powerful than Major Physical Protection. I have done numerous (non numerical) tests to prove to myself it is more powerful. Creatures I can't evade very often with Major PP up I will evade every time with Swirling Winds up (and not Major PP).
As for the numerical thing, that is just what I was told by the two 100+ WMs I talked to. I'm not saying they're right, but I believe them (especially if the parry thing is 100 ranks).
- Smeg
Smegul says, "Heh."
ALDEN
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 02:26 PM CDT
"Flavius, your statements make large generalizations and are based on opinion. You should make specific examples"
Just to clarify- Flavius hasn't been involved with this discussion. Frankly this is an arguement between Moon Mage Guild and the War Mage guild, both very powerful guilds, both very popular guilds over spitting rights.
The clerics guild is so underrepresented in spells and power that the arguement is largely meaningless from my point of view. My 44th circle cleric wouldn't stand a chance against a 44th circle moonie or war mage. Does that mean that your guilds are overpowered or ours is underpowered? My guild has no meaningful magic defenses against magic or stealth, our combat boosts are poor second cousins to War Mages, and Survival skills as secondary beats weapons as secondary any day.
So again, why should I care about an argument between 2 of the most powerful guilds in the game about whose spells are overpowered? Am I generalizing too much here? Naah I don't think so. In my opinion- most powerful guilds in the game: Moon Mages/War Mages/Barbarians/Rangers. After that paladins and thieves. After that clerics and bards. We clerics have the drop on empaths and traders.
Wouldn't have commented on this at all except my name was used in error- the cleric who actually posted knows far more about spells and combat than I do.
Flavius
Just to clarify- Flavius hasn't been involved with this discussion. Frankly this is an arguement between Moon Mage Guild and the War Mage guild, both very powerful guilds, both very popular guilds over spitting rights.
The clerics guild is so underrepresented in spells and power that the arguement is largely meaningless from my point of view. My 44th circle cleric wouldn't stand a chance against a 44th circle moonie or war mage. Does that mean that your guilds are overpowered or ours is underpowered? My guild has no meaningful magic defenses against magic or stealth, our combat boosts are poor second cousins to War Mages, and Survival skills as secondary beats weapons as secondary any day.
So again, why should I care about an argument between 2 of the most powerful guilds in the game about whose spells are overpowered? Am I generalizing too much here? Naah I don't think so. In my opinion- most powerful guilds in the game: Moon Mages/War Mages/Barbarians/Rangers. After that paladins and thieves. After that clerics and bards. We clerics have the drop on empaths and traders.
Wouldn't have commented on this at all except my name was used in error- the cleric who actually posted knows far more about spells and combat than I do.
Flavius
FRIEDR2003
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 02:27 PM CDT
<<no that was changed... it now protects against EVERY(yes every) offensive spell cast at someone who has it up. the mana cap is 50 and max duration is 10 minutes.>>
I was under the impression that SoD only protected against projectiles, magic and mundane. Does SoD actually protect against all offense spells? I mean if its stopping vertigo, frostbite, thunderclap, arc light (haha), tingle etc. then that is strange. I thought it only weakened the power and accuracy of projectiles though.
I was under the impression that SoD only protected against projectiles, magic and mundane. Does SoD actually protect against all offense spells? I mean if its stopping vertigo, frostbite, thunderclap, arc light (haha), tingle etc. then that is strange. I thought it only weakened the power and accuracy of projectiles though.
LINKZY
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 02:37 PM CDT
<<As for the numerical thing, that is just what I was told by the two 100+ WMs I talked to. I'm not saying they're right, but I believe them (especially if the parry thing is 100 ranks).>>
yea... i'm not saying it doesnt, i know it helps a great deal. just wondering if there was any evidence as to how much it helped exactly.
<<I was under the impression that SoD only protected against projectiles, magic and mundane. Does SoD actually protect against all offense spells? I mean if its stopping vertigo, frostbite, thunderclap, arc light (haha), tingle etc. then that is strange. I thought it only weakened the power and accuracy of projectiles though.>>
no it used to only protect against pucture damage spells but now it helps against ALL offensive spell
yea... i'm not saying it doesnt, i know it helps a great deal. just wondering if there was any evidence as to how much it helped exactly.
<<I was under the impression that SoD only protected against projectiles, magic and mundane. Does SoD actually protect against all offense spells? I mean if its stopping vertigo, frostbite, thunderclap, arc light (haha), tingle etc. then that is strange. I thought it only weakened the power and accuracy of projectiles though.>>
no it used to only protect against pucture damage spells but now it helps against ALL offensive spell
MORNINGSTORM
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 04:45 PM CDT
Someone pointed out that Shear takes away the use of an entire book while Shear is up.
AC takes away all books from use while it is maintained, but, comparably, it is overwhelmed by the same spells shear would stop.
Shear allows for casting several other books of magic, does not inflict mana burn from harnessing for an excessive time and it inflicts damage to those who fail to overwhelm it.
AC does not.
Moonmages have some heavy defense for little loss.
Jerevth
Nodwick: "Okay... this is ominous."
Yeagar:"If "ominous" means something that makes you "*need to change your shorts*", then I've learned a new word."
(Moments later) I think I just "ominoused" myself.
AC takes away all books from use while it is maintained, but, comparably, it is overwhelmed by the same spells shear would stop.
Shear allows for casting several other books of magic, does not inflict mana burn from harnessing for an excessive time and it inflicts damage to those who fail to overwhelm it.
AC does not.
Moonmages have some heavy defense for little loss.
Jerevth
Nodwick: "Okay... this is ominous."
Yeagar:"If "ominous" means something that makes you "*need to change your shorts*", then I've learned a new word."
(Moments later) I think I just "ominoused" myself.
LORDLOL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 05:25 PM CDT
>AC takes away all books from use while it is maintained, but, comparably, it is overwhelmed by the same spells shear would stop.
Nice try, but no..
You put up AC, you use the held mana to cast your spell, your spell does not fail, you then take 3-4 seconds after you cast your spell to put AC back up. You cannot just drop your Shear and cast a spell.
In case you need it outlined for you.
Prep AC
harness <however much you want>
cast
prep <overpowered WM spell>
cast
prep AC
harness <however much you want>
cast
The RT for harnessing is 3 seconds.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Nice try, but no..
You put up AC, you use the held mana to cast your spell, your spell does not fail, you then take 3-4 seconds after you cast your spell to put AC back up. You cannot just drop your Shear and cast a spell.
In case you need it outlined for you.
Prep AC
harness <however much you want>
cast
prep <overpowered WM spell>
cast
prep AC
harness <however much you want>
cast
The RT for harnessing is 3 seconds.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
MORNINGSTORM
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 07:34 PM CDT
Somehow I think no. You lose one book with a few spells in it. So what?
MB, Thoughtcast (the pain!) Hypnotize, shadowling, shadow servent...
You have a pretty good list of spells in other areas. Starlight sphere, ripple, telekinetic throw/storm, crystal spike, DO.
Three seconds to cast AC is a long time for the enemy to cast his own spells.
Let's trade.
I'd love to have something as effective as DO(Aether lash) without giving up the security of my defensive spell. Oh, no burned nerves because I can't hold 30 (Harnessed 5 at a shot) mana beyond 5 minutes without charring my internals.
Jerevth
Nodwick: "Okay... this is ominous."
Yeagar:"If "ominous" means something that makes you "*need to change your shorts*", then I've learned a new word."
(Moments later) I think I just "ominoused" myself.
MB, Thoughtcast (the pain!) Hypnotize, shadowling, shadow servent...
You have a pretty good list of spells in other areas. Starlight sphere, ripple, telekinetic throw/storm, crystal spike, DO.
Three seconds to cast AC is a long time for the enemy to cast his own spells.
Let's trade.
I'd love to have something as effective as DO(Aether lash) without giving up the security of my defensive spell. Oh, no burned nerves because I can't hold 30 (Harnessed 5 at a shot) mana beyond 5 minutes without charring my internals.
Jerevth
Nodwick: "Okay... this is ominous."
Yeagar:"If "ominous" means something that makes you "*need to change your shorts*", then I've learned a new word."
(Moments later) I think I just "ominoused" myself.
MARGASH
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 08:02 PM CDT
>Major Physical Protection - 60 rank evasion bonus. 20 minute duration. 55 mana.
>Swirling Winds - 100 rank evasion bonus. I'm not sure on the details of duration and casting mana, but I think it's 17 minute max duration and 65ish max prep mana.
18 minutes and the 65 thing is right but it changes depending on weather....close enough for me.
That's a good point.
Of course, look at your WvW spells compared to ours. HP dominates tingle and thunderclap, in my opinion.
We have no shield abilities where you have a pretty dern good one.
I'll stop there. Because we could go back and forth comparing the pro's and con's and the analysis gets pretty complex....and because that's not the topic of this thread.
What is the topic and is also not overly complex:
665 TM should be > 135 evasion. With or without barrier spells.
Tessaa
>Swirling Winds - 100 rank evasion bonus. I'm not sure on the details of duration and casting mana, but I think it's 17 minute max duration and 65ish max prep mana.
18 minutes and the 65 thing is right but it changes depending on weather....close enough for me.
That's a good point.
Of course, look at your WvW spells compared to ours. HP dominates tingle and thunderclap, in my opinion.
We have no shield abilities where you have a pretty dern good one.
I'll stop there. Because we could go back and forth comparing the pro's and con's and the analysis gets pretty complex....and because that's not the topic of this thread.
What is the topic and is also not overly complex:
665 TM should be > 135 evasion. With or without barrier spells.
Tessaa
MARGASH
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 08:04 PM CDT
P.s. about the SW/MPP thing...can't you stack minor phys. protection anyway?
MARGASH
MARGASH
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 08:06 PM CDT
Smegul while you mentioned it...
How much does confound enemies help against TM and ranged attacks?
I know aether cloak is pretty sizeable for TM attacks...and confound enemies is also held mana...and if it helped a ncie amount against ranged attacks too...and you got that orb thingy...
Just curious mostly. I r cleric virgin.
Tessaa
How much does confound enemies help against TM and ranged attacks?
I know aether cloak is pretty sizeable for TM attacks...and confound enemies is also held mana...and if it helped a ncie amount against ranged attacks too...and you got that orb thingy...
Just curious mostly. I r cleric virgin.
Tessaa
LINKZY
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 10:09 PM CDT
<<you then take 3-4 seconds after you cast your spell to put AC back up. You cannot just drop your Shear and cast a spell.>>
right... how many warmages can cast a spell and then harness 50 mana(the amount it takes to make it worthwhile) in 1 try without being manaless. Also harnessed mana leeks faster when you have less in your pool, giving you twitching faster.
and yes you can drop shear and cast a spell.. prep shear pause 3 cast prep other spell waitfor shear to drop cast prep shear cast it takes about the same amount of time for both.
right... how many warmages can cast a spell and then harness 50 mana(the amount it takes to make it worthwhile) in 1 try without being manaless. Also harnessed mana leeks faster when you have less in your pool, giving you twitching faster.
and yes you can drop shear and cast a spell.. prep shear pause 3 cast prep other spell waitfor shear to drop cast prep shear cast it takes about the same amount of time for both.
WILTONQU
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 10:33 PM CDT
Minor Physical protection nor major physical protection are stackable. Major Physical protection is a group spell but only as long as they are joined the cleric, If the leave the group one of the holy "features" is the spell will drop off of them. Major Physical only effects one skill evasion. at best it is about a 60 rank boost. Compared to SW it is a joke. Compare 200 rank bonus to a 60 rank bonus....... Sorry about the mix up with the names. The poster is Cadderrly not flavius. I stand behind me opionion of the spells. I agree with Smegul though it guess it all reliative. If they were hopin to balance out the magic prime guilds they and make a rank equal a rank overall, I stand behind the idea that it needs a hard look and a revision overall.
As far a comparing specific examples....Mind Blast drops effective evasion of target to 0 and knocks them out for a long time. Two other spells are roughly this effective halt and web<both from non magic prime guilds> lets take a look at the cleric answer to Mind blast? H P which is effectively removes Magic from roughly about the duration of mind blast or halt. It does not effect evasion at or the ability to attack at all unlike the others. Vertigo is the warrior mage answer i would say or tingle. Both are very effective spells with the current will vs will mechanics. Actually any Will vs will spell is vastly overpowered with the current spell mechanics. Just that Moonmage ones are a lot more effective than the other magic prime guilds seem to be.
Lets compare Burn to AE.... Both are Death from above thus they ignore two defenses of the target totally. Min prep for burn is about 6 or 7? Min prep for AE is 20. At 20 to 25 mana i have trouble killing a boar with AE and this is with well over 400 PM and a good bit over 250 TM. at about 35 mana it is decent if you want to scuff something. 45 to 50 mana it hits about right. At about 50+ mana it becomes the ungodly answer to the clerical arms race. It hits based on PM and scales damage based on TM and mana input. It is overpowered once you get around 50 mana in it. cast it about 4 times and it will kill the caster if cast 3 to 4 times in a few minutes the caster dies from spirit death and auto departs. Anyone want to see how burn stacks up against it and tell me they are even close? Lightning bolt even?
I know they are not getting major downteakes ect ect. I will not bother to continue to bore you with post on it. It is just that the spells are basically overpowered and should be balanced out. What ever happened to the concept of balancing magic out where it was playable and balanced?
Just A Cleric
As far a comparing specific examples....Mind Blast drops effective evasion of target to 0 and knocks them out for a long time. Two other spells are roughly this effective halt and web<both from non magic prime guilds> lets take a look at the cleric answer to Mind blast? H P which is effectively removes Magic from roughly about the duration of mind blast or halt. It does not effect evasion at or the ability to attack at all unlike the others. Vertigo is the warrior mage answer i would say or tingle. Both are very effective spells with the current will vs will mechanics. Actually any Will vs will spell is vastly overpowered with the current spell mechanics. Just that Moonmage ones are a lot more effective than the other magic prime guilds seem to be.
Lets compare Burn to AE.... Both are Death from above thus they ignore two defenses of the target totally. Min prep for burn is about 6 or 7? Min prep for AE is 20. At 20 to 25 mana i have trouble killing a boar with AE and this is with well over 400 PM and a good bit over 250 TM. at about 35 mana it is decent if you want to scuff something. 45 to 50 mana it hits about right. At about 50+ mana it becomes the ungodly answer to the clerical arms race. It hits based on PM and scales damage based on TM and mana input. It is overpowered once you get around 50 mana in it. cast it about 4 times and it will kill the caster if cast 3 to 4 times in a few minutes the caster dies from spirit death and auto departs. Anyone want to see how burn stacks up against it and tell me they are even close? Lightning bolt even?
I know they are not getting major downteakes ect ect. I will not bother to continue to bore you with post on it. It is just that the spells are basically overpowered and should be balanced out. What ever happened to the concept of balancing magic out where it was playable and balanced?
Just A Cleric
MORS-INCARNATUS
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 10:57 PM CDT
The important fact left out here is that they were completely untargetted casts. Targetting plays a MUCH bigger role than merely boosting effective TM ranks when it comes to breaking through defensive spells.
TERKOWITZM
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 11:03 PM CDT
>How much does confound enemies help against TM and ranged attacks?
How much is it supposed to work, or does it work?
It is currently not worth even using. It is the only Cleric spell I do not have. And the ranged weapon defense part is not working (at all) currently. The TM defense part is working in theory (it at least has messaging, unlike the ranged weapon part), but I didn't see any effectiveness difference with it up.
- Smeg
Smegul says, "Heh."
How much is it supposed to work, or does it work?
It is currently not worth even using. It is the only Cleric spell I do not have. And the ranged weapon defense part is not working (at all) currently. The TM defense part is working in theory (it at least has messaging, unlike the ranged weapon part), but I didn't see any effectiveness difference with it up.
- Smeg
Smegul says, "Heh."
