So before I turn 20 I am going to give OHB and shield a try to compare it to THW. I like the idea of a tower/great shield. Seems that some people say you can skip dodge since I will eventually be wearing plate and using a great shield, but you do some get some DS from dodge even though i will rarely be outright dodging attacks? Can you get away with 1.5 shield training or should do 2x?
Also reading the Wiki on opening ambushing it seems cman ranks have more importance then ambush, seems points are not going far doing 3x armor and 3x pt. Is it even worth it to have any ranks of ambush while I am lower training and add to it over time or just skip it all together. With the shield I would like to disable with aiming for a leg and then the head.
Looking at the shield maneuvers, if i keep the shield, I will lean towards the passive maneuvers. If im gonna go offensive stance Im just gonna swing for the fences with my mace.
Thanks again for the advice.
KELLYM40
OM1E5GA
Re: Shield and dodge
05/30/2020 10:15 PM CDT
<So before I turn 20 I am going to give OHB and shield a try to compare it to THW. I like the idea of a tower/great shield. Seems that some people say you can skip dodge since I will eventually be wearing plate and using a great shield, but you do some get some DS from dodge even though i will rarely be outright dodging attacks? Can you get away with 1.5 shield training or should do 2x?>
My warrior uses a tower shield and at level 57 is 3x Shield Use with no Dodging. Shield size plays a big factor in how effective a character is with both Blocking and Dodging, using a tower shield basically means you're putting all your chips on blocking so you'll want to pump that up all you want.... plus, there's never seems to be enough shield points for all the shield maneuvers you're going to want and 3x will give you more to spread around.
<Also reading the Wiki on opening ambushing it seems cman ranks have more importance then ambush, seems points are not going far doing 3x armor and 3x pt. Is it even worth it to have any ranks of ambush while I am lower training and add to it over time or just skip it all together. With the shield I would like to disable with aiming for a leg and then the head.>
If you're 2x in Combat Maneuvers, you don't need a whole lot of Ambush to aim your attacks if all you're aiming at are heads, necks, and legs. Getting .5x to start is good and you can let is taper off later as you get comfortable with your success at aiming your attacks or need the TPs for other things.
<Looking at the shield maneuvers, if i keep the shield, I will lean towards the passive maneuvers. If im gonna go offensive stance Im just gonna swing for the fences with my mace.>
Legging everything you run across won't work much past level 25. Some time between then and 30 you're going to need to start setting up critters for a kill to reduce their DS, prevent them from attacking, or both. This is what the active CMANs and shield maneuvers are for. Some critters will have DS too high to give you the endrolls you need to effectively leg them, others will have attacks of their own you'll want to prevent them from using, and some won't have legs to begin with.... having the right CMAN or shield maneuver can help rectify all three of these problems.
I'd suggest having 2 active maneuvers (either CMANs or Shield) by 30 and keep an eye on the list as you level up for others to add to yer arsenal as you progress. Disarm, Shield Bash and Feint are all good options to start with, Feint and Disarm can both be learned through the guild if you'd rather not spend the points to learn them.
I'm not saying to ignore the passive ones completely, I have more of them then I do active ones myself.... just don't go without some sort of active maneuvers to help you out.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
My warrior uses a tower shield and at level 57 is 3x Shield Use with no Dodging. Shield size plays a big factor in how effective a character is with both Blocking and Dodging, using a tower shield basically means you're putting all your chips on blocking so you'll want to pump that up all you want.... plus, there's never seems to be enough shield points for all the shield maneuvers you're going to want and 3x will give you more to spread around.
<Also reading the Wiki on opening ambushing it seems cman ranks have more importance then ambush, seems points are not going far doing 3x armor and 3x pt. Is it even worth it to have any ranks of ambush while I am lower training and add to it over time or just skip it all together. With the shield I would like to disable with aiming for a leg and then the head.>
If you're 2x in Combat Maneuvers, you don't need a whole lot of Ambush to aim your attacks if all you're aiming at are heads, necks, and legs. Getting .5x to start is good and you can let is taper off later as you get comfortable with your success at aiming your attacks or need the TPs for other things.
<Looking at the shield maneuvers, if i keep the shield, I will lean towards the passive maneuvers. If im gonna go offensive stance Im just gonna swing for the fences with my mace.>
Legging everything you run across won't work much past level 25. Some time between then and 30 you're going to need to start setting up critters for a kill to reduce their DS, prevent them from attacking, or both. This is what the active CMANs and shield maneuvers are for. Some critters will have DS too high to give you the endrolls you need to effectively leg them, others will have attacks of their own you'll want to prevent them from using, and some won't have legs to begin with.... having the right CMAN or shield maneuver can help rectify all three of these problems.
I'd suggest having 2 active maneuvers (either CMANs or Shield) by 30 and keep an eye on the list as you level up for others to add to yer arsenal as you progress. Disarm, Shield Bash and Feint are all good options to start with, Feint and Disarm can both be learned through the guild if you'd rather not spend the points to learn them.
I'm not saying to ignore the passive ones completely, I have more of them then I do active ones myself.... just don't go without some sort of active maneuvers to help you out.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
KELLYM40
Re: Shield and dodge
05/30/2020 11:55 PM CDT
I cant even fully 2x in shield without either dropping down to 2x in armor or PT let alone 3x. I want redux and to be in full plate ASAP, but it seems that if i want to 2x one of those drops and even more so to 3x in shields. That is with 0 dodge, 3x armor,3x PT, 2 OHB, 2 cman, 1x MOC and 1x perception. Skinning and FA are not even possibilities currently.
I plan to learn tackle as my first guild cman and then Tricks/beserks.
Plan on testing out the OHB/shield tomorrow, it will be a drastic change im sure comparing my claid to a mace....hopefully I have not gotten spoiled with one shooting creatures or getting stuns on a 120 end roll. Will post here to discuss how much I suck, only lvl 13 but man with a THW I hunter very fast. I am of the mindset that this change to using a shield will help me get to cap with few deaths.
RATHBONER
Re: Shield and dodge
05/31/2020 05:46 AM CDT
I was 2x shield, 1x dodge, but that was before shield points were a thing. 3x shield is the obvious training now. No dodge to start with but add it at high level with the aim of being 0.25x-0.5x at cap.
Those shield points are really useful, pile them up as fast as possible. There's not a lot of point using a shield as a warrior if you are training it like you were a rogue. Even when you have spent 200 of them, there's still really useful stuff waiting to be trained. I had about 160 points when they were released, and I kept using CMan points rather than shield points for bash for a long time after that, because I wanted other shield stuff more than other CMan stuff. Armor use doesn't have a any use between break points, so you can slack that off to get more shield when it is isn't doing anything for you.
Open ambush skill is the average of cman skill and ambush skill. It caps at 200, which means there's no point training ambush past 23 ranks when you are capped and 2x cman (302+99)/2. Open ambush skill starts to have use at around 70-90 depending on how frequently you are prepared to miss openings, what weapon you are using and how dextrous you are. The sooner you want to open with a headshot, the more ambush you need to train, but CMan alone might be good enough for legging and crushing the head of a prone and stunned target at level 19 or you might need a handful of ambush ranks to top it up. My approach is to try it and whenever I get a missed opening I didn't want to risk getting, train an ambush rank.
Feint and shield bash, or some other ways of stancing and knocking down your opponents should be trained early. Half the time critters are best legged, and half the time they are best bashed and its quite important to be able to get them one way or another.
Tackle should be left to last if you are using a shield. Its the bit of guild training that varies most depending on whether or not you use a shield. Its high priority if you don't and low priority if you do. Having stuff in your hands penalises tackle, and if you can shield bash, you don't need tackle.
The guild will force you to learn two skills, you can learn one a lot faster than the other, but you can't finish the first without starting the second.
Those shield points are really useful, pile them up as fast as possible. There's not a lot of point using a shield as a warrior if you are training it like you were a rogue. Even when you have spent 200 of them, there's still really useful stuff waiting to be trained. I had about 160 points when they were released, and I kept using CMan points rather than shield points for bash for a long time after that, because I wanted other shield stuff more than other CMan stuff. Armor use doesn't have a any use between break points, so you can slack that off to get more shield when it is isn't doing anything for you.
Open ambush skill is the average of cman skill and ambush skill. It caps at 200, which means there's no point training ambush past 23 ranks when you are capped and 2x cman (302+99)/2. Open ambush skill starts to have use at around 70-90 depending on how frequently you are prepared to miss openings, what weapon you are using and how dextrous you are. The sooner you want to open with a headshot, the more ambush you need to train, but CMan alone might be good enough for legging and crushing the head of a prone and stunned target at level 19 or you might need a handful of ambush ranks to top it up. My approach is to try it and whenever I get a missed opening I didn't want to risk getting, train an ambush rank.
Feint and shield bash, or some other ways of stancing and knocking down your opponents should be trained early. Half the time critters are best legged, and half the time they are best bashed and its quite important to be able to get them one way or another.
Tackle should be left to last if you are using a shield. Its the bit of guild training that varies most depending on whether or not you use a shield. Its high priority if you don't and low priority if you do. Having stuff in your hands penalises tackle, and if you can shield bash, you don't need tackle.
The guild will force you to learn two skills, you can learn one a lot faster than the other, but you can't finish the first without starting the second.
OM1E5GA
Re: Shield and dodge
05/31/2020 08:12 AM CDT
<I cant even fully 2x in shield without either dropping down to 2x in armor or PT let alone 3x. I want redux and to be in full plate ASAP, but it seems that if i want to 2x one of those drops and even more so to 3x in shields. That is with 0 dodge, 3x armor,3x PT, 2 OHB, 2 cman, 1x MOC and 1x perception. Skinning and FA are not even possibilities currently.>
Are you sure you're not leaving out something you're training in? The only difference with the skills you listed between our warriors is that mine 3x in Shield Use and 2x in PF. Points were a bit tight with my warrior until level 50 when she was able to get into plate and slacked off on Armor Use... but she has always trained in two attack styles (Blunt and Brawling) in addition to all that.
This is her current training (just turned 57 yesterday). I paused MOC training once I got 30 ranks to pick up the AS ranks, I alternated between Climbing and Swimming to have them both at 15 ranks by level 30 cause she's in RR, and the one ranks in TWC is so my DS isn't completely tanked if I put away my shield while using UCS:
(at level 57), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 5 1
Armor Use..........................| 250 150
Shield Use.........................| 277 177
Combat Maneuvers...................| 216 116
Blunt Weapons......................| 218 118
Brawling...........................| 216 116
Ambush.............................| 158 58
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 155 55
Physical Fitness...................| 218 118
Arcane Symbols.....................| 114 28
Perception.........................| 159 59
Climbing...........................| 70 15
Swimming...........................| 70 15
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Are you sure you're not leaving out something you're training in? The only difference with the skills you listed between our warriors is that mine 3x in Shield Use and 2x in PF. Points were a bit tight with my warrior until level 50 when she was able to get into plate and slacked off on Armor Use... but she has always trained in two attack styles (Blunt and Brawling) in addition to all that.
This is her current training (just turned 57 yesterday). I paused MOC training once I got 30 ranks to pick up the AS ranks, I alternated between Climbing and Swimming to have them both at 15 ranks by level 30 cause she's in RR, and the one ranks in TWC is so my DS isn't completely tanked if I put away my shield while using UCS:
(at level 57), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 5 1
Armor Use..........................| 250 150
Shield Use.........................| 277 177
Combat Maneuvers...................| 216 116
Blunt Weapons......................| 218 118
Brawling...........................| 216 116
Ambush.............................| 158 58
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 155 55
Physical Fitness...................| 218 118
Arcane Symbols.....................| 114 28
Perception.........................| 159 59
Climbing...........................| 70 15
Swimming...........................| 70 15
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
KELLYM40
Re: Shield and dodge
05/31/2020 09:30 AM CDT
Seems I didnt get rid of dodge training when I first tested it,
3x armor, 3x pt, 1x moc, 2x shield, 2x OHB, 1x perception ,.25 climbing and swimming. Extra points I will probably dump into more shield ranks.
KELLYM40
Re: Shield and dodge
05/31/2020 09:41 AM CDT
So I am better off going 3x shield and dropping armor to less then 3x?
OM1E5GA
Re: Shield and dodge
05/31/2020 09:57 AM CDT
<So I am better off going 3x shield and dropping armor to less then 3x?>
I'd keep armor to 3x until you have enough to train off the penalties for whatever armor you want to be in. After that, you can either keep going for the over-training benefits and get more ranks in Armor Skills or let it slack off to pick up other things you want.
I wanted full plate so I went all the way to 150 ranks then stopped to get some other things I want (MOC up to 55 ranks and some MIU mostly). There's nothing wrong at settling in a lower ASG armor if you find a set you like or want to get other things more. Esp pre-cap Chain Hauberk or Metal Breastplate are common stopping points. Some move up to full plate later and others stay in those armors indefinitely. It was just my personal preferance to be in plate ASAP.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I'd keep armor to 3x until you have enough to train off the penalties for whatever armor you want to be in. After that, you can either keep going for the over-training benefits and get more ranks in Armor Skills or let it slack off to pick up other things you want.
I wanted full plate so I went all the way to 150 ranks then stopped to get some other things I want (MOC up to 55 ranks and some MIU mostly). There's nothing wrong at settling in a lower ASG armor if you find a set you like or want to get other things more. Esp pre-cap Chain Hauberk or Metal Breastplate are common stopping points. Some move up to full plate later and others stay in those armors indefinitely. It was just my personal preferance to be in plate ASAP.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
RATHBONER
Re: Shield and dodge
06/01/2020 04:43 AM CDT
>I'd keep armor to 3x until you have enough to train off the penalties for whatever armor you want to be in. After that, you can either keep going for the over-training benefits and get more ranks in Armor Skills or let it slack off to pick up other things you want.
You don't need to train 3x armor at level 21 in order to have 3x armor at level 22 any more. Training at 3x from level 0 because you want to be 3x at level 22 is GS3 not GS4.
Armor does not do anything for you between breakpoints. MOC does almost nothing for you between breakpoints. You can squeeze quite a bit extra in at levels where the training doesn't do anything for you by waiting till you can train enough to be useful before you train it. It may be too much trouble to bother with for tertiary stuff, but when you are deciding which of your core skills to skimp on at which level, skimp on whichever one needs another 5 levels before you would get any benefit from the ranks you could train now.
You don't need to train 3x armor at level 21 in order to have 3x armor at level 22 any more. Training at 3x from level 0 because you want to be 3x at level 22 is GS3 not GS4.
Armor does not do anything for you between breakpoints. MOC does almost nothing for you between breakpoints. You can squeeze quite a bit extra in at levels where the training doesn't do anything for you by waiting till you can train enough to be useful before you train it. It may be too much trouble to bother with for tertiary stuff, but when you are deciding which of your core skills to skimp on at which level, skimp on whichever one needs another 5 levels before you would get any benefit from the ranks you could train now.
KELLYM40
Re: Shield and dodge
06/01/2020 11:33 PM CDT
If i am understanding you correctly, In order to keep 3x shield since I get shield points and almost immediate benefit its better to drop down a few armor training if it wont let me wear heavier armor?
Couldnt the same be done with shield ranks? do 2.5x and just train back up to 3x when I reach plate?
Also kinda off subject how do most people approach training in the guild? Just joined and the berserk is tedious with my -4 dis bonus from being an elf. Just power through the first 10-15 ranks and pray it gets better?
OM1E5GA
Re: Shield and dodge
06/02/2020 07:46 AM CDT
<Also kinda off subject how do most people approach training in the guild? Just joined and the berserk is tedious with my -4 dis bonus from being an elf. Just power through the first 10-15 ranks and pray it gets better?>
I can't speak for others, but as for myself: I don't approach it at all.
Yes, it would be nice to save the CMAN points I spend for Disarm for other things, but guild training is just far too tedious and frustrating for me... and this is coming from someone that's mastered fletching on 2 characters and forging for 3 of the weapon bases. The only guild skill from any of the guilds I've actually mastered is Lock Mastery in the rogue guild, I actually kind of enjoyed that one. The others, I've started but just can't summon the will to get more then a few ranks.
To be completely honest, I really don't miss having them either.... but your own mileage might vary.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I can't speak for others, but as for myself: I don't approach it at all.
Yes, it would be nice to save the CMAN points I spend for Disarm for other things, but guild training is just far too tedious and frustrating for me... and this is coming from someone that's mastered fletching on 2 characters and forging for 3 of the weapon bases. The only guild skill from any of the guilds I've actually mastered is Lock Mastery in the rogue guild, I actually kind of enjoyed that one. The others, I've started but just can't summon the will to get more then a few ranks.
To be completely honest, I really don't miss having them either.... but your own mileage might vary.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
OM1E5GA
Re: Shield and dodge
06/02/2020 07:50 AM CDT
<Couldnt the same be done with shield ranks? do 2.5x and just train back up to 3x when I reach plate?>
Forgot to add my comments about this. There's nothing wrong with doing it this way, personal pref on which way really.... though of the two you'll be more likely to notice being down ranks in shield then in armor until you catch up. Either way, though, the difference would be small.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Forgot to add my comments about this. There's nothing wrong with doing it this way, personal pref on which way really.... though of the two you'll be more likely to notice being down ranks in shield then in armor until you catch up. Either way, though, the difference would be small.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
KELLYM40
Re: Shield and dodge
06/02/2020 08:18 AM CDT
After reaching rank 3 in berserk and rank 1 in all the other skills, I am seriously considering skipping the guild especially being in platinum with no one around to do partner or audience reps. When I played my rogue in regular GS3/4 I suffered through most of the skills stopping after getting ticked off with stun man reps. With limited time in playing not sure if I want to spend my time on guild stuff, though battering reps are easily (so far).
I am very surprised that you have to buy tickets in the simushop to trade your guild task?
KRAKII
Re: Shield and dodge
06/02/2020 08:34 AM CDT
Aren't there Guild task vouchers in the daily 'boost' freebies, too?
.
I only had one character in a profession Guild (a Fighter) and after a long absence he got booted for not paying his dues. (I was literally on the way from the bank and about two rooms away from the Guildhall when I got the notification, "Nope, you're out!")
I also have not missed them terribly, but then again even my highest Fighter is only 38th level; tactics are still largely built around "hit it, then hit it again."
Most likely I will revisit that when I get to a bunch more levels, simply because of the opportunity cost (if I spend my limited supply of CMan points on something that I can get through the Guild, then I do not have those CMan points to spend on something else that may be useful), and that includes Armor and even Shield (currently he is also using 2Hand, like you).
And this attitude is also applicable elsewhere: I did the same thing with a Bard/Mental Lore versus learning an instrument, with the exact same reasoning.
.
I only had one character in a profession Guild (a Fighter) and after a long absence he got booted for not paying his dues. (I was literally on the way from the bank and about two rooms away from the Guildhall when I got the notification, "Nope, you're out!")
I also have not missed them terribly, but then again even my highest Fighter is only 38th level; tactics are still largely built around "hit it, then hit it again."
Most likely I will revisit that when I get to a bunch more levels, simply because of the opportunity cost (if I spend my limited supply of CMan points on something that I can get through the Guild, then I do not have those CMan points to spend on something else that may be useful), and that includes Armor and even Shield (currently he is also using 2Hand, like you).
And this attitude is also applicable elsewhere: I did the same thing with a Bard/Mental Lore versus learning an instrument, with the exact same reasoning.
KANDOR
Re: Shield and dodge
06/02/2020 10:50 AM CDT
>Just joined and the berserk is tedious with my -4 dis bonus from being an elf. Just power through the first 10-15 ranks and pray it gets better?
Yes, more or less. Berserk reps are much easier for characters with a high discipline bonus but, like all (most?) guild skills, they get much easier to execute as you advance. Between 15-20 I raised my discipline to make berserk easier at first. I'm not sure what plat does for the audience reps, but I think both berserk and batter can be done entirely without help. Disarm and tackle require a partner, frequently, and warcries require an occasional partner. I've known people who train a couple ranks in berserk as a CMAN first, and un-train it before 20 once they get better in the guild. I've done the same for several of the other guild skills, notably feint. Berserk and either warcries or tricks actually have pretty good synergy -- berserk, then go rake leaves while your stamina recovers; or go berserk while your vocal chords recover.
>I also have not missed them terribly, but then again even my highest Fighter is only 38th level; tactics are still largely built around "hit it, then hit it again."
I like swords.
Yes, more or less. Berserk reps are much easier for characters with a high discipline bonus but, like all (most?) guild skills, they get much easier to execute as you advance. Between 15-20 I raised my discipline to make berserk easier at first. I'm not sure what plat does for the audience reps, but I think both berserk and batter can be done entirely without help. Disarm and tackle require a partner, frequently, and warcries require an occasional partner. I've known people who train a couple ranks in berserk as a CMAN first, and un-train it before 20 once they get better in the guild. I've done the same for several of the other guild skills, notably feint. Berserk and either warcries or tricks actually have pretty good synergy -- berserk, then go rake leaves while your stamina recovers; or go berserk while your vocal chords recover.
>I also have not missed them terribly, but then again even my highest Fighter is only 38th level; tactics are still largely built around "hit it, then hit it again."
I like swords.
KRAKII
Re: Shield and dodge
06/02/2020 12:35 PM CDT
It's worth noting that DIScipline enhancive items exist, and can be found pretty easily in PlayerShops nowadays... :)
RATHBONER
Re: Shield and dodge
06/02/2020 01:21 PM CDT
>Also kinda off subject how do most people approach training in the guild? Just joined and the berserk is tedious with my -4 dis bonus from being an elf. Just power through the first 10-15 ranks and pray it gets better?
Unless you actively enjoy the process and want to do as much of it as possible, don't get the second rank in any skill until you have hit level 20.
Before level 20 you have up to 5 fixstats available to you, so DIS = 100 before then is another option, but the second rank takes about 40% the work at level 20 as it does if you pile straight in, so you may not gain enough to make it worthwhile.
Zombies used to be good for critter reps. Remove arm and leg. Stow blessed weapon. Berserk.
>With limited time in playing not sure if I want to spend my time on guild stuff, though battering reps are easily (so far).
Its a bad idea to progress easy but low priority skills early on. It means it takes more work to get the skills you want. 20 ranks of batter doesn't do much more for you than 1 rank, but 20 ranks of berserk does. (maybe an elf needs 30, but it was starting to be a decent stun breaker for me at 20).
Unless you actively enjoy the process and want to do as much of it as possible, don't get the second rank in any skill until you have hit level 20.
Before level 20 you have up to 5 fixstats available to you, so DIS = 100 before then is another option, but the second rank takes about 40% the work at level 20 as it does if you pile straight in, so you may not gain enough to make it worthwhile.
Zombies used to be good for critter reps. Remove arm and leg. Stow blessed weapon. Berserk.
>With limited time in playing not sure if I want to spend my time on guild stuff, though battering reps are easily (so far).
Its a bad idea to progress easy but low priority skills early on. It means it takes more work to get the skills you want. 20 ranks of batter doesn't do much more for you than 1 rank, but 20 ranks of berserk does. (maybe an elf needs 30, but it was starting to be a decent stun breaker for me at 20).
