Song of Tonis (1016)
Major revision. No longer a group spell.
This sucks.
This isn't normal!
What do you mean this isn't normal!?!
This is way worse!!
ARSENAULTL1
BOWERSJ
Re: Bard Design Proposal
08/15/2022 11:16 PM CDT
I don't really play a bard do I don't have much stake in it... But I likewise am having a real hard time understanding how the new 1009 isn't a big nerf.
You used to have a natural +35 (with training) air flaring weapon. I like being able to scale them up with other player services, but now you'll also need to scale enchant as well.
They specifically limited it so services are specific to the weapon type. Seems incredibly unnecessary to me. You already don't get the ability to resell the item, so you're already taking a loss. I think letting services apply universally to all types (weapon, armor, shield) would be awesome and make the spell really cool, offer veraitility, and really not be a massive balance issue as far as I can see. Maybe even let people designate a few service sets so you can have some different weapons profiles. Just really feel like the complete lack of resale ability already balances this out.
You used to have a natural +35 (with training) air flaring weapon. I like being able to scale them up with other player services, but now you'll also need to scale enchant as well.
They specifically limited it so services are specific to the weapon type. Seems incredibly unnecessary to me. You already don't get the ability to resell the item, so you're already taking a loss. I think letting services apply universally to all types (weapon, armor, shield) would be awesome and make the spell really cool, offer veraitility, and really not be a massive balance issue as far as I can see. Maybe even let people designate a few service sets so you can have some different weapons profiles. Just really feel like the complete lack of resale ability already balances this out.
BBRODRIGUEZ
Re: Bard Design Proposal
08/16/2022 09:41 AM CDT
For those looking for the updated proposal and forget how to find it, this link should get you there:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i0wcL8-_14v7Tzd15BPmlW0aomfSkfotoa0tXtNgk4Q
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i0wcL8-_14v7Tzd15BPmlW0aomfSkfotoa0tXtNgk4Q
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Bard Design Proposal
08/16/2022 12:09 PM CDT
>>Spell Hindrance
>>This update is already live in Divergence. Spell hindrance would apply to the Bard spell circle as it does to other spell circles. To coincide with this, we will be adjusting down the spell hindrance of the Bard circle for AsGs 12-16 (brigandine through chain hauberk).
Is it intended bards should more easily be able to wear up to ASG 16 (full coverage chain) going forward? Paradigm shifts like this are extremely frustrating when players frequently spend years (if not decades) working on equipment upgrades only to have their gear become downgraded (in terms of desirability) as a result of these types of reviews.
Assuming the above is correct, will there be a limited time option to convert existing augmented chain into chain hauberk?
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
>>This update is already live in Divergence. Spell hindrance would apply to the Bard spell circle as it does to other spell circles. To coincide with this, we will be adjusting down the spell hindrance of the Bard circle for AsGs 12-16 (brigandine through chain hauberk).
Is it intended bards should more easily be able to wear up to ASG 16 (full coverage chain) going forward? Paradigm shifts like this are extremely frustrating when players frequently spend years (if not decades) working on equipment upgrades only to have their gear become downgraded (in terms of desirability) as a result of these types of reviews.
Assuming the above is correct, will there be a limited time option to convert existing augmented chain into chain hauberk?
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
KRAKII
Re: Bard Design Proposal
08/23/2022 03:10 PM CDT
"https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i0wcL8-_14v7Tzd15BPmlW0aomfSkfotoa0tXtNgk4Q" -- BBRodriguez
Feedback and Questions, I'll start at the top.
MECHANICS
- MC:Mental reduces chance of losing medley maintenance by 1%/rank... so it can eventually be guaranteed? Use of Enhancives & Ascension can make this happen before 98th (when you can first train that 100th rank) level? Base chance based on DIScipline bonus... as Enhanced/Ascended?
- "Every renewal period" for ambient messaging of a singer. Is this the existing Renewal calculation, it just happens not to have any actual effect because "no more renew"?
Is there an option for the Bard to be able to SHUT THE HELL UP, and not message the room if they choose?
* Mana cost/lower max mana "available". What value is used for a pulse (off-node %, on-node %)? When triggered manually ('mana pulse' command)? The ACTUAL max? The "less available" 'max'?
- Armor hindrance, hauberk/AsG16 now 6% even for your physical armor? Further reading says that MC:Mental @ 100 ranks can take Sonic Armor down to only two percent (2%)? Getting some Armor Fluidity Rank5 love from a Paladin for half, == 1% chance of hindrance in your Sonic Hauberk?
Given the GMs' previous statements that "Lore ranks always count", why can not Enhancives / Ascension kick that up to 125 ranks == -5%, or 150 ranks == -6%?
SPELL LIST
- Resonance/1002, is exploding equipment considered Disruption damage (to trigger Cacophony/1017)?
Any possibility of striking armor (this would be new)?
Any possibility of letting the bard specify (left, right, armor) target to attempt?
- Lullaby/1005, does enough ML:Telepathy overcome the step of the formula where undead & demons where their results were halved? (In other words, is it possible to get "8 ranks of result", which then get halved down to 4, which == fall to the ground asleep?)
- Certainty/1006, does "physical" attack mean "anything using AS/DS" formula? (== Ranged, Thrown, bolt/ball spells, including from wands?) What happens with UAC (which is definitely 'physical', but does not even use AS/DS)?
- Banshee's Wail/1008, are the number/duration of "fall over" cycles remaining the same as current implementation?
It looks like this is going to be the bread-and-butter damage dealer. Will the damage be noticeably better than the current results' rather lackluster comparison to single-target Disrupt for only two mana more (+2)? (Yes, I understand that Disrupt as a concept is too powerful now, and is getting downtweaked with these changes.)
Since ML:Manipulation can unlock this to a bolt (AS/DS) spell, does it count as a "physical" attack for alternate steps of Certainty?
If the disoriented Wail target gets hit by Sonic/Dancing to possibly flare for Disruption damage, does that damage itself trigger Cacophony/1017?
- Sonic Gear/1009, I already asked about "Lore always counts" above. Between Enhancives & Ascension, 175 ranks (for -7%) is possible, which would move AsGs 17-19 down to 14%, which is only 7% with a cooperating Paladin's Fluidity...
- Peace/1011, with the delay in the effect's arrival, is it possible for the Bard to be hostile (cast or swing) before it gets there?
- Arresting/1012, is Disruption/1035 the ONLY spell that Bards have which has the potential for the wraparound effect?
A caster bard would get precisely no benefit from 35th level/being able to cast Disruption, up until 58th level/60 ranks of ML:Manipulation (or possibly earlier, depending on Enhancive & Ascension use)?
- Unravel/1013, so many points.
The 5 mana cost is for ALL CASTS (using the actual 'cast')?
And the redos have no cost, castRT, nor activation to them? (Bard just watches the spells melt off.)
Assume a target wearing 5 spells, and a caster with 75 Lore == 5 redos. Cast gets the first 1, first 4 redos strip the remaining worn spells, last redo actually gives mana to the Bard? If the Bard had 90 Lore == 6 redos in this scenario, because the 5th one struck the Mana Lode, the 6th does not actually happen, correct?
What happens when the target preps a new spell? Will anything about this Song (a new cast, or one of the redos coming up on cycle) hit that?
If a Bard has a series of redos firing, and casts again, does that cast generate it own cycle of redos?
When the Bard has struck mana (so all previous redo cycles have ended), and casts again to get mana, does that new cast start a redo cycle which by definition ONLY hits once (because it too strikes mana)?
Is the existing mechanic of "only 50% goes to the Bard" remaining?
Is the existing mechanic of "if you equal or exceed 150% of your mana, your head explodes" remaining?
If so, what counts towards 150%? Normal max, or reduced-by-medley max?
- Crescendo/1014, text says "melee" attack to trigger. MUST it be melee, or "weapon" (so Ranged, Thrown)? What about UAC?
Cacophony/1017 is used in the example; would Banshee's Wail/1008 also work (as for example Cacophony is already on that target)? What about EBlast or EStrike, from the Minor list? Anything else Self-Knowldge?
With EL:Air ranks, the "free War Chant/1001" just... happens, as long as you have Crescendo running?
130 ranks of Air == -40 seconds == only 20 seconds before it refreshes?
With Enhancives & Ascension, up to 201 is possible; 187 total is enough to remove 59s from the auto-cast, taking advantage of the 1s casting time of War Chant/1001. Legit?
- Depression/1015: still a warding spell--at one point, I thought I saw that it was going to auto-hit?--because see also Rage effect transfer?
Still hits the whole room?
ML:Telepathy still gives additional TD push-down?
This looks like the second paired spell (see also Arresting/1012, pairing with Disruption), where Banshee's Wail/1008 is the ONLY spell that can benefit from the trio of targets for having Dirge activated?
(How about "any Song lower than 1015"? So you could get three VibeChants going off, for example...)
- Tonis/1016, why is Lore benefit capped at 100 ranks for +25 (== 40 net) Dodging? (See also "GMs' stance of 'Lore ranks always help', and Enhancives, and Ascension.") EVEN IF the Bard sinks everything into maxxing out Enhancive AND Ascension, it's only going to be a total of +65 Dodging. See also "Ranger at roughly 1/2 of cap"...
So a Bard with 75 Song ranks is normally -2s RT.
Manually triggering Wings effect... has 0s castRT (and no listed mana cost?!?) for the Bard to net -3s, AND his party gets -1s from Wings (only, and assuming 50 ranks MC:Mental)?
- Cacophony/1017 lingering effects. Caster puts Banshee's Wail/1008 in place (since it linger for a while/several "fall over" cycles). Hits with Cacophony, and then during the damage cycles swings again with Sonic Weapon and the Dancing Weapon gets in some licks. Either or both of the weapon swings COULD (standard flare rate) trigger additional disruption damage... which--because Cacophony is running--would deal an additional round of disruption damage from 1017, correct?
Is the "25 ML:Manipulation 30s disruption effect go the disruption flare"... meaning that one of those weapons MUST flare in order to the get spell disruption at all?
If it does get laid on, and Dissonance/1003 is on (already there, or added after the Cacophony cast), are there now two (2x) "spell disruption effects similar to Sounds" in effect? Only one, but twice as likely to happen? Duplication lost?
- Power/1018. Uh-huh. Really. So, after going to lengths to take the tedium out of looking at medley durations and mana (every 10 to nearly 12 minutes, at cap)... you're now having us keep track of this TWICE AS OFTEN?!?!? Five minutes? Can I get some of whatever you guys were smoking? Can you re-think this step, please, and then get more feedback with the re-write?
Is there ANY CHANCE AT ALL that this spell can kill the Bard?
If the Bard triggers "mana pulse" by hand, does that give the 50AS/30CS buff for 30s?
- Mirrors/1019. See also "Rangers are other-casting Dodging ranks for four hours cumulative duration for fixed mana and benefit up to 'spells known capped at level', from the last 17 years."
- Dancing Weapon/1025, was asked by many from the old version of the proposal already: if the Bard (training + Enhancives + Ascension) has100+ ranks of ML:Manipulation AND also ML:Telepathy, does the weapon now deal both disintegrate AND disruption damage? Bard gets to choose? Both standard-flare-rate checks for Disorient & Confuse, irrespective of damage type?
- Luck/1030, applied to a runestaff OR just having the Song running, can the rerolls cause 1==FUMBLE and/or armor hindrance not-to-happen?
- Disruption/1035, ML:Manipulation gives added damage. +Enhancives +Ascension to no cap?
* General 'Song list' thoughts: single target/mass effect (and possibilities of cast/evoke verb use) seems to have been essentially completely removed.
The recent changes with verbs could have permitted things like: single-target Depression (instead of whole room) for less mana; single-target Noise (instead of whole room) for less mana; whole room (instead of single-target) Rage, for more mana. Multi-target VibeChant, for more mana.
Feedback and Questions, I'll start at the top.
MECHANICS
- MC:Mental reduces chance of losing medley maintenance by 1%/rank... so it can eventually be guaranteed? Use of Enhancives & Ascension can make this happen before 98th (when you can first train that 100th rank) level? Base chance based on DIScipline bonus... as Enhanced/Ascended?
- "Every renewal period" for ambient messaging of a singer. Is this the existing Renewal calculation, it just happens not to have any actual effect because "no more renew"?
Is there an option for the Bard to be able to SHUT THE HELL UP, and not message the room if they choose?
* Mana cost/lower max mana "available". What value is used for a pulse (off-node %, on-node %)? When triggered manually ('mana pulse' command)? The ACTUAL max? The "less available" 'max'?
- Armor hindrance, hauberk/AsG16 now 6% even for your physical armor? Further reading says that MC:Mental @ 100 ranks can take Sonic Armor down to only two percent (2%)? Getting some Armor Fluidity Rank5 love from a Paladin for half, == 1% chance of hindrance in your Sonic Hauberk?
Given the GMs' previous statements that "Lore ranks always count", why can not Enhancives / Ascension kick that up to 125 ranks == -5%, or 150 ranks == -6%?
SPELL LIST
- Resonance/1002, is exploding equipment considered Disruption damage (to trigger Cacophony/1017)?
Any possibility of striking armor (this would be new)?
Any possibility of letting the bard specify (left, right, armor) target to attempt?
- Lullaby/1005, does enough ML:Telepathy overcome the step of the formula where undead & demons where their results were halved? (In other words, is it possible to get "8 ranks of result", which then get halved down to 4, which == fall to the ground asleep?)
- Certainty/1006, does "physical" attack mean "anything using AS/DS" formula? (== Ranged, Thrown, bolt/ball spells, including from wands?) What happens with UAC (which is definitely 'physical', but does not even use AS/DS)?
- Banshee's Wail/1008, are the number/duration of "fall over" cycles remaining the same as current implementation?
It looks like this is going to be the bread-and-butter damage dealer. Will the damage be noticeably better than the current results' rather lackluster comparison to single-target Disrupt for only two mana more (+2)? (Yes, I understand that Disrupt as a concept is too powerful now, and is getting downtweaked with these changes.)
Since ML:Manipulation can unlock this to a bolt (AS/DS) spell, does it count as a "physical" attack for alternate steps of Certainty?
If the disoriented Wail target gets hit by Sonic/Dancing to possibly flare for Disruption damage, does that damage itself trigger Cacophony/1017?
- Sonic Gear/1009, I already asked about "Lore always counts" above. Between Enhancives & Ascension, 175 ranks (for -7%) is possible, which would move AsGs 17-19 down to 14%, which is only 7% with a cooperating Paladin's Fluidity...
- Peace/1011, with the delay in the effect's arrival, is it possible for the Bard to be hostile (cast or swing) before it gets there?
- Arresting/1012, is Disruption/1035 the ONLY spell that Bards have which has the potential for the wraparound effect?
A caster bard would get precisely no benefit from 35th level/being able to cast Disruption, up until 58th level/60 ranks of ML:Manipulation (or possibly earlier, depending on Enhancive & Ascension use)?
- Unravel/1013, so many points.
The 5 mana cost is for ALL CASTS (using the actual 'cast')?
And the redos have no cost, castRT, nor activation to them? (Bard just watches the spells melt off.)
Assume a target wearing 5 spells, and a caster with 75 Lore == 5 redos. Cast gets the first 1, first 4 redos strip the remaining worn spells, last redo actually gives mana to the Bard? If the Bard had 90 Lore == 6 redos in this scenario, because the 5th one struck the Mana Lode, the 6th does not actually happen, correct?
What happens when the target preps a new spell? Will anything about this Song (a new cast, or one of the redos coming up on cycle) hit that?
If a Bard has a series of redos firing, and casts again, does that cast generate it own cycle of redos?
When the Bard has struck mana (so all previous redo cycles have ended), and casts again to get mana, does that new cast start a redo cycle which by definition ONLY hits once (because it too strikes mana)?
Is the existing mechanic of "only 50% goes to the Bard" remaining?
Is the existing mechanic of "if you equal or exceed 150% of your mana, your head explodes" remaining?
If so, what counts towards 150%? Normal max, or reduced-by-medley max?
- Crescendo/1014, text says "melee" attack to trigger. MUST it be melee, or "weapon" (so Ranged, Thrown)? What about UAC?
Cacophony/1017 is used in the example; would Banshee's Wail/1008 also work (as for example Cacophony is already on that target)? What about EBlast or EStrike, from the Minor list? Anything else Self-Knowldge?
With EL:Air ranks, the "free War Chant/1001" just... happens, as long as you have Crescendo running?
130 ranks of Air == -40 seconds == only 20 seconds before it refreshes?
With Enhancives & Ascension, up to 201 is possible; 187 total is enough to remove 59s from the auto-cast, taking advantage of the 1s casting time of War Chant/1001. Legit?
- Depression/1015: still a warding spell--at one point, I thought I saw that it was going to auto-hit?--because see also Rage effect transfer?
Still hits the whole room?
ML:Telepathy still gives additional TD push-down?
This looks like the second paired spell (see also Arresting/1012, pairing with Disruption), where Banshee's Wail/1008 is the ONLY spell that can benefit from the trio of targets for having Dirge activated?
(How about "any Song lower than 1015"? So you could get three VibeChants going off, for example...)
- Tonis/1016, why is Lore benefit capped at 100 ranks for +25 (== 40 net) Dodging? (See also "GMs' stance of 'Lore ranks always help', and Enhancives, and Ascension.") EVEN IF the Bard sinks everything into maxxing out Enhancive AND Ascension, it's only going to be a total of +65 Dodging. See also "Ranger at roughly 1/2 of cap"...
So a Bard with 75 Song ranks is normally -2s RT.
Manually triggering Wings effect... has 0s castRT (and no listed mana cost?!?) for the Bard to net -3s, AND his party gets -1s from Wings (only, and assuming 50 ranks MC:Mental)?
- Cacophony/1017 lingering effects. Caster puts Banshee's Wail/1008 in place (since it linger for a while/several "fall over" cycles). Hits with Cacophony, and then during the damage cycles swings again with Sonic Weapon and the Dancing Weapon gets in some licks. Either or both of the weapon swings COULD (standard flare rate) trigger additional disruption damage... which--because Cacophony is running--would deal an additional round of disruption damage from 1017, correct?
Is the "25 ML:Manipulation 30s disruption effect go the disruption flare"... meaning that one of those weapons MUST flare in order to the get spell disruption at all?
If it does get laid on, and Dissonance/1003 is on (already there, or added after the Cacophony cast), are there now two (2x) "spell disruption effects similar to Sounds" in effect? Only one, but twice as likely to happen? Duplication lost?
- Power/1018. Uh-huh. Really. So, after going to lengths to take the tedium out of looking at medley durations and mana (every 10 to nearly 12 minutes, at cap)... you're now having us keep track of this TWICE AS OFTEN?!?!? Five minutes? Can I get some of whatever you guys were smoking? Can you re-think this step, please, and then get more feedback with the re-write?
Is there ANY CHANCE AT ALL that this spell can kill the Bard?
If the Bard triggers "mana pulse" by hand, does that give the 50AS/30CS buff for 30s?
- Mirrors/1019. See also "Rangers are other-casting Dodging ranks for four hours cumulative duration for fixed mana and benefit up to 'spells known capped at level', from the last 17 years."
- Dancing Weapon/1025, was asked by many from the old version of the proposal already: if the Bard (training + Enhancives + Ascension) has100+ ranks of ML:Manipulation AND also ML:Telepathy, does the weapon now deal both disintegrate AND disruption damage? Bard gets to choose? Both standard-flare-rate checks for Disorient & Confuse, irrespective of damage type?
- Luck/1030, applied to a runestaff OR just having the Song running, can the rerolls cause 1==FUMBLE and/or armor hindrance not-to-happen?
- Disruption/1035, ML:Manipulation gives added damage. +Enhancives +Ascension to no cap?
* General 'Song list' thoughts: single target/mass effect (and possibilities of cast/evoke verb use) seems to have been essentially completely removed.
The recent changes with verbs could have permitted things like: single-target Depression (instead of whole room) for less mana; single-target Noise (instead of whole room) for less mana; whole room (instead of single-target) Rage, for more mana. Multi-target VibeChant, for more mana.
KRAKII
Re: Bard Design Proposal
08/25/2022 04:02 PM CDT
Recalled another point for Unravel/1013:
- Is the "additional random result (currently inserted between d100/success step & the 'give the Bard half the result' step" going to remain? (Basically, there are currently two random numbers generated: d100 CS comparison for "does the cast succeed", and "how much mana gets pulled". Then that gets cut in half, and the Bard's Mana Control skill is checked.)
This is ridiculous: we have a random check for degree of success already, it's called the CS/TD. Let that determine how much mana is drawn.
Also, get rid of the arbitrary halving.
- Is the "additional random result (currently inserted between d100/success step & the 'give the Bard half the result' step" going to remain? (Basically, there are currently two random numbers generated: d100 CS comparison for "does the cast succeed", and "how much mana gets pulled". Then that gets cut in half, and the Bard's Mana Control skill is checked.)
This is ridiculous: we have a random check for degree of success already, it's called the CS/TD. Let that determine how much mana is drawn.
Also, get rid of the arbitrary halving.
